Changes at Birdwatch Ireland

Woodville56

Just been reading BWI ezine - appears to be changes in staffing/ management - CEO gone and "new management team structure" in place ?? Cutbacks or what's goin on there ?
Have always found them a strangely aloof organisation , emails sent about issues and seldom/rarely responded to, not much of a presence or input to local birding in these parts at least !

OpenYourEyes

Financial issues unfortunately - obviously their membership is relatively low compared to the RSPB in the UK, and given the current financial climate things are even worse and have required cutbacks.

I've always found them a very good organisation tbh. Very involved in policy at an Irish and European level, and hugely involved in regular annual surveying and data collection in Ireland (seabirds, tern colonies, IWeBS, CBS etc. etc.). Just because you don't seem them doesn't necessarily mean they aren't doing much in your part of the country. They're always looking for volunteers for IWeBS and CBS, so worth emailing them with your location/experience level/bins and scope details and asking if you can contribute in some way.

I'm not sure what else you expect them to do? Admittedly some of their local branches leave something to be desired, but thats down to the people in that area unfortunately.


If you look at the list of blogs Here you'll see how actively involved in monitoring and conservation of raptors, garden birds, little terns, waterbirds in Dublin Bay and Shannon Callows and Seabirds, and like I said above there's plenty of other stuff they're involved with too. Unfortunately with the staffing cutbacks it might mean a lower social media presence and less people knowing about all of the good work the do as a result.

Not a perfect organisation obviously, but one that's underappreciated in my opinion.

Woodville56

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

They're always looking for volunteers for IWeBS and CBS, so worth emailing them with your location/experience level/bins and scope details and asking if you can contribute in some way.

I'm not sure what else you expect them to do? Admittedly some of their local branches leave something to be desired, but thats down to the people in that area unfortunately.

I accept the difficulties arising from cost containment / cutbacks etc but I would still expect a reply or at least acknowledgment of emails etc, especially when in relation to volunteering and branch development but c"est la vie , just puts me of any further attempts to engage with them .

OpenYourEyes

Woodville56 wrote: »

I accept the difficulties arising from cost containment / cutbacks etc but I would still expect a reply or at least acknowledgment of emails etc, especially when in relation to volunteering and branch development but c"est la vie , just puts me of any further attempts to engage with them .

Yeah well thats certainly true alright. You'd think that given the current difficulties that they'd prioritise stuff like that as best they can if it gets more people involved with them.

I've had some dealings with them in recent months with regards using some of the data they hold and found the person I was dealing with very difficult to get a hold of, but that was down to their workload being unbelievably big.

magicbastarder

Woodville56 wrote: »

I accept the difficulties arising from cost containment / cutbacks etc but I would still expect a reply or at least acknowledgment of emails etc, especially when in relation to volunteering and branch development but c"est la vie , just puts me of any further attempts to engage with them .

they may simply not have time to respond to all membr communication.
an autoresponder on their email would fix this, but i know some people find them irritating.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

I was a member for over 40 years - IWC back then - but did not renew my membership about 3 years ago. I found that they were only interested in the rarer birds so sought after by twitchers or in their reserves. I could never get any enthusiasm from them for the ordinary common or garden birds or for issues outside their reserves. It seemed a species was of no interest until it,s numbers were in serious decline. Some branches were excellent but by no means all. The responses from head office were slow, if at all.
The BTO have much more interest in the average birdwatcher than BW Ireland seem to have these days.

OpenYourEyes

Roger Sparse Supermarket wrote: »

I was a member for over 40 years - IWC back then - but did not renew my membership about 3 years ago. I found that they were only interested in the rarer birds so sought after by twitchers or in their reserves. I could never get any enthusiasm from them for the ordinary common or garden birds or for issues outside their reserves. Some branches were excellent but by no means all. The responses from head office were slow, if at all.
The BTO have much more interest in the average birdwatcher than BW Ireland seem to have these days.

IWeBS - all Irish Wetland Birds
CBS - Countryside/farmland Birds
Seatrack/Tern Wardening - a lot of our seabirds
Garden Bird Surveys - Garden Birds
Raptor Projects & Dedicated Raptor Conservation Officer - Raptors

Plus they recently tried to start a school-education programme about birds and nature.


Obviously certain birds are used as flagship species, or the plight of a group of birds might be communicated through one of the more charasmatic birds in that group.
It might have been the case a few years ago, but I think it's hard to argue that they're only interested in the rare birds now.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

IWeBS - all Irish Wetland Birds
CBS - Countryside/farmland Birds
Seatrack/Tern Wardening - a lot of our seabirds
Garden Bird Surveys - Garden Birds
Raptor Projects & Dedicated Raptor Conservation Officer - Raptors

Plus they recently tried to start a school-education programme about birds and nature.


Obviously certain birds are used as flagship species, or the plight of a group of birds might be communicated through one of the more charasmatic birds in that group.
It might have been the case a few years ago, but I think it's hard to argue that they're only interested in the rare birds now.

Oh I have been involved in all those for many years, believe me. I was particularly involved in raptor projects and wetland surveys. The garden birds survey is a very limited affair compared to the weekly counts carried out on behalf of the BTO, which has run for many many years now and reports back regularly to participants in a very accessible and simple quarterly magazine at no cost. But from the point of view as an ordinary subscribing member I honestly found little of value in being a member and that goes for many people I know. Many had joined and found it did not cater for the average person with an interest in birds but were not birdwatchers as such. The magazine at times seemed to have more about African or south american species than it did on Irish birds.I know people who said they found the magazine (often the only thing they got for their annual subscription) was too specialist for them and often went largely unread.
Don't get me wrong. It is a great organisation but I feel it just doesn't cater for someone with a passing interest in the same way the RSPB or BTO does. I know matters of scale are a factor but they ignored the everyday membership in favour of the "real" birdwatchers at their cost, in my opinion. Membership has dropped as far as I know, so perhaps a new marketing angle is needed or indeed a change in the organising administration may well be due.

Judgement Day

I was a member of the IWC back in the late 1960s and through the 1970s when David Scott ran the whole thing from his cottage in Dalkey - using a manual typewriter and a landline. In these days of easy instant communication there's no excuse not to keep people up to date and answer queries promptly. Voluntary groups, no matter how worthy, just like commercial undertakings live and die by their ability to communicate.

OpenYourEyes

Yeah I can see what you're saying. Obviously I'm just looking at it from my own point of view and I'd have more of an interest and a broader knowledge than some other subscribers.

I think its important to introduce the average subscriber to birds that they aren't too far away from that they could take an interest in - plenty of great birdwatching sites and birds to see in every part of the country like, not just in your back garden or the lake down the road, and BWI have to plug the work they're doing too, to show people they're financing a lot more than just a quarterly magazine. While it's great if a family in Dublin is subscribing based on the fact that they like feeding birds in their garden and seeing the odd Kestrel by the motorway, you have to take the opportunity to try and get them more interested and to go visit Bull Island, Wicklow NP, Wexford Wildfowl Reserve and try and get them more aware of all birds, and all of the issues facing those birds.

And there's only so many Robin/Blue Tit/Wildlife garden pieces you can do too.

Perhaps they should be beefing up their magazines with contributions from a wider range of BWI members (the local people on the ground as well as the scientists/conservationists). I'm sure they have plenty of volunteers at their disposal who would love to write an article every now and again about their local patch/favourite bird etc., and including a few more things like that might help them 'tick more of the boxes' in each issue. And I'm sure most would do it for the pleasure of having their article and pictures published in the mag, rather than charging a fee. Given that the magazine is quarterly I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to step it up a bit.

They might benefit by piggybacking on the BTO/RSPB stuff like the garden birds magazines and theres others for people who participated in Winter Thrush surveys etc too.

Like I said above, they recently started a nature education in schools type thing, but given the current financial situation I'm not sure it'll get off the ground unfortunately.

OpenYourEyes

Regarding the communication issues with their local branches/volunteers that have been mentioned above, a simple email saying that the person is busy and that they're sorry but they'll get back to them soon, or something to that effect, would even help that situation.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Judgement Day wrote: »

I was a member of the IWC back in the late 1960s and through the 1970s when David Scott ran the whole thing from his cottage in Dalkey - using a manual typewriter and a landline. In these days of easy instant communication there's no excuse not to keep people up to date and answer queries promptly. Voluntary groups, no matter how worthy, just like commercial undertakings live and die by their ability to communicate.

Aah, those were the days! And that is what they have lost. Communication to ordinary members is limited to the magazine (not geared to most members' interest) and almost quarterly appeals for funding of projects. It does feel as though it has evolved into a corporation rather than the charity and interest group is once was. I joined IWC in late 1965 and my good friend Robin Ruttledge often spoke of bringing an awareness of birds to the majority of people in Ireland who were coming in to a generation removed from country life and were no longer able to recognise the common farmland birds like chaffinches or to tell a rook from a jackdaw. Unfortunately, I think progress has been very slow.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

The trouble is they concentrate too much on sites for birdwatching. Certainly lots of people like to get guidance as to where they can go to see birds but it must be realised that most people want to watch the birds in their garden, at the local park, or when walking in the countryside. They don't want to go to hides at reserves - as was said to me amany times, they almost feel intimidated in hides with "real" birders with all their fancy optics and superior knowledge. You and I know these birders would be only too happy to help less experienced watchers but those same watchers are embarrassed by their lack of knowledge. It's a catch 22. People want to learn but need experience in their backyard first.

Woodville56

Judgement Day wrote: »

I was a member of the IWC back in the late 1960s and through the 1970s when David Scott ran the whole thing from his cottage in Dalkey - using a manual typewriter and a landline. In these days of easy instant communication there's no excuse not to keep people up to date and answer queries promptly. Voluntary groups, no matter how worthy, just like commercial undertakings live and die by their ability to communicate.

Brings back memories indeed ! My first introduction to fieldwork and other birdwatchers was a meeting with the late David Scott. As a youngster I had written to the IWC, as it was then, about the ATLAS of Breeding Birds survey and got a handwritten letter from David saying he would be in the midlands at some stage doing some fieldwork and that he would contact me. True to his word, he did make contact and we spent a day in the wilds of Leitrim and kept up contact for ages after. I learned so much in that day and kept in contact with him for some time afterwards, even had him to tea when he was passing through . A really nice man, dunno if there are many like him any more ? I have met some of the BWI hierarchy on a few occasions and, not being a twitcher or a rarity chaser, I found some of these guys spoke a different language almost. Having said that, some of the BWI fieldworkers I've met are well grounded and very helpful, but not wishing to spark a fullscale debate on birders and birding I have also experienced a degree of aloofness and elitism among certain elements of the birding community. I suppose one finds similar differences in most type of communities/groups. Warm memories of David Scott though !

Half-cocked

In my biased opinion, twitchers and twitching has done a lot of damage to birdwatching/conservation on a whole load of levels:mad:

OpenYourEyes

Half-cocked wrote: »

In my biased opinion, twitchers and twitching has done a lot of damage to birdwatching/conservation on a whole load of levels:mad:

I'm not really in any twitching circles, and I'm still new to it all really, but I've heard some ecologist friends criticise some twitchers attitudes in terms of cockiness, more concerned with lists/pics than anything else etc as has been mentioned above, but would you care to elaborate on 'damage on a whole load of levels'?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Twitchers indirectly, or unmeaningly maybe, make non twitchers feel uneducated or ignorant of birds.
Twitchers give the whole birdwatching thing a bad name among the general public with the image of guys rushing around the country chasing rarities and ticking lists.
Twitchers have no consideration for the more common birds and the importance of monitoring their numbers as an indication of population problems possibly ahead.
The behaviour of some twitchers in accessing property to find these rarities leaves a lot to be desired and can result in others being barred from entering the area.
People getting into bird identifaction are apt to think that they must behave as twitchers so decide against it.

A rarity after all is just a lost bird.

Half-cocked

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

would you care to elaborate on 'damage on a whole load of levels'?

The bad public image they create for birding for a start. The fact that they often look down their noses at those involved in serious conservation work or even those who just enjoy observing our more common species (or trash birds as the twitchers call them). They think that speeding the length of the country to see a sad lost tired little vagrant is more important than things like habitat preservation. And quite often you are judged by the value of your optics rather than your knowledge or experience. I could go on. As I said, I'm biased against them;)

OpenYourEyes

Not arguing, and like I said I'm well aware of many negative things about some in the twitching community, but in the interest of debate and discussion:

Roger Sparse Supermarket wrote: »

Twitchers indirectly, or unmeaningly maybe, make non twitchers feel uneducated or ignorant of birds.

Unmeaningly for the vast majority I'm sure - I can understand people with worse ID skills being somewhat intimidated, but any birder I've met has been great at pointing out where a bird is, letting me know whats around, and telling me about the things to look out for when ID'ing the bird in question.

Roger Sparse Supermarket wrote: »

Twitchers give the whole birdwatching thing a bad name among the general public with the image of guys rushing around the country chasing rarities and ticking lists.

I don't think the general public know about twitchers! I was vaguely ware a few years ago that rare birds turn up here and people go and see them, but I didn't realise there was a more hardcore community within the birdwatching one that keeps lists and spends a great time seeking out rarities. So I don't think they do give other birdwatchers a bad name. I think the general public (certainly in Ireland anyway) think birdwatchers are people who stand in fields or beside lakes and look at birds - I don't think they give it much more thought than that.

Roger Sparse Supermarket wrote: »

Twitchers have no consideration for the more common birds and the importance of monitoring their numbers as an indication of population problems possibly ahead.

That's certainly true for a lot of the proper twitchers alright. That being said, there are plenty of twitchers in BWI, NPWS etc. that are involved in day-to-day conservation too. Shouldn't tar everyone with the same brush, but there certainly are plenty of twitchers like that.

Roger Sparse Supermarket wrote: »

The behaviour of some twitchers in accessing property to find these rarities leaves a lot to be desired and can result in others being barred from entering the area.

This is absolutely true for alot (though not all) of twitchers, and to add to that some will seek out rare breeding birds at the expense of breeding success for those birds, which is disgraceful!

Roger Sparse Supermarket wrote: »

People getting into bird identifaction are apt to think that they must behave as twitchers so decide against it.

I'll bow to your years and experience on this one, but I certainly havn't seen any experience of that. I know plenty of people who stopped short of twitching and instead are happy with regular visits to Rogerstown, Bull Island, WWR, Saltee Islands etc and never felt the need to hunt down the rarities and behave as above.

Roger Sparse Supermarket wrote: »

A rarity after all is just a lost bird.

True! With a not too bright future.....

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Oh I accept what you say and won't argue with it, as I think all here are lovers of wildlife. The important thing is that we respect each others opinions and I certainly respect yours. We all have different experiences and that is what keeps life interesting.

OpenYourEyes

Half-cocked wrote: »

The bad public image they create for birding for a start. The fact that they often look down their noses at those involved in serious conservation work or even those who just enjoy observing our more common species (or trash birds as the twitchers call them). They think that speeding the length of the country to see a sad lost tired little vagrant is more important than things like habitat preservation. And quite often you are judged by the value of your optics rather than your knowledge or experience. I could go on. As I said, I'm biased against them;)

I've responded to a few of these in my above post in reply to Srameen, but I don't think they look down their noses at those involved in serious conservation work? At worst I would have thought they were just disinterested in serious conservation work!

And regarding the optics, I've never had anything close to Swarovski-calibre stuff with me, and often never even had a scope, but have never found it to be an issue with any of the birders I've encountered. I'm sure there are some unpleasant birders, as there are in any community, but my experience (and it's pretty much limited to this year) hasn't seen any of the above.


I don't feel I'm biased for twitchers either - I've studied and am hoping to work in conservation - either the research side or the practical side, and I'm not a twitcher - although I was in Wexford this year so given the diversity there I kept my first and probably only 'year list'.

Interesting to hear the thoughts of others though!

Judgement Day

Jeez there's some amount of us OAPs on this forum.

Like many I look back on the past with rose tinted spectacles but in some ways while they may have been great days for birdwatching they were frustrating times too. I was also a YOC, RSPB and later BTO member and it was in no small part due to comparing what little was happening here to what was going on in the UK that led to most of my friends giving up birdwatching. I was one of the last to drop the hobby, towards the end of 1981. Some great memories though - the week before the Leaving in 1976 instead of revising I was allowed to go on a three day ringing expedition to the Saltees with David Cabot and Richard Nairn.

Capercaille

I'd be classified as a twitcher. If I had the time and money, I'd go after every rariety in the Country. I have a big interest in conservation though and to say all twitchers have no interest in conservation is harsh.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

OAP doing your leaving in 1976? I have a few years on you - I had my Masters at that stage and working with wildlife.

Seriously though. There were more general birders in those days while through the 80s and early 90s there was a marked shift to twitching, to the detrement of the hobby in general.

I think it's important to distinguish between birders and twitchers. Birders (like ourselves) are usually decent people only too willing to help and advise others while twitchers ..well are twitchers.

Open your eyes, all I can say is any time I ever mentioned an interest in nature and birds in particular somebody has said "Oh a twitcher?" and they were well aware of the activities of twitchers. However, as with many things, I'm sure there's the twitcher side of the story too.

Woodville56

Roger Sparse Supermarket wrote: »

Twitchers indirectly, or unmeaningly maybe, make non twitchers feel uneducated or ignorant of birds.
Twitchers give the whole birdwatching thing a bad name among the general public with the image of guys rushing around the country chasing rarities and ticking lists.
Twitchers have no consideration for the more common birds and the importance of monitoring their numbers as an indication of population problems possibly ahead.
The behaviour of some twitchers in accessing property to find these rarities leaves a lot to be desired and can result in others being barred from entering the area.
People getting into bird identifaction are apt to think that they must behave as twitchers so decide against it.

A rarity after all is just a lost bird.

I agree with most of the above ! I've come across some of the types you describe, like being at a well known birding site in early autumn and being ignored by 3 other "designer gear" birders present who barely said hello and discussed among themselves ad nauseum their past and planned birding holidays abroad and moaned about the wasted trip to the site , "nothing showing" etc.. For me, it was a real adventure, a wetland with loads of waders, some of which I could'nt identify, but a wonderful experience none the less. Having said that, I do admit to keeping a list, a life list of sorts, no rarities, just birds I see on my travels around local and Irish sites, I don't travel for rarities but I'am interested in recording whats locally available here, with a long way to go before I hit the 200+ species on the BWI website list. I bet some of the "twitchers" dont know their local patches or have never done IWeBS or Atlas work, yet travel far and wide for the fleeting rarity...vanity or what !!!!

Judgement Day

It's the same in the railway fraternity where train spotters/gricers generally contribute little to the hobby and give railway enthusiasts a bad name.

Woodville56

Judgement Day wrote: »

Jeez there's some amount of us OAPs on this forum.

Like many I look back on the past with rose tinted spectacles but in some ways while they may have been great days for birdwatching they were frustrating times too. I was also a YOC, RSPB and later BTO member and it was in no small part due to comparing what little was happening here to what was going on in the UK that led to most of my friends giving up birdwatching. I was one of the last to drop the hobby, towards the end of 1981. Some great memories though - the week before the Leaving in 1976 instead of revising I was allowed to go on a three day ringing expedition to the Saltees with David Cabot and Richard Nairn.

I was in the YOC also - remember the Kestrel badge ???:)

OpenYourEyes

Well like I said - I'm still fairly new to the whole thing, especially that side of things, so I bow to your experience, interesting to hear other peoples thoughts and experiences on it!



*This thread has made me feel very young!! :P

Zoo4m8

Many years ago long before 'twitching 'was invented! We owned a property where one of the first sighting of the collared dove occurred on the east coast, my father knew Major Ruttledge and contacted him for an id on this new bird.
I remember well his and David Gardner's first visit , not an aloof bone in their bodies! Stupid questions on my part were answered with patience..
When they learned that we owned an area of wetland near where the east coast reserve is now, we were friends for life particularly as my father gave them a gate key so they could come and go as they pleased...
I often think of these gentlemen when I come across twitchers on Kilcoole breaches, I have long since given up trying to engage these people in conversion, most seemed to have graduated from the same college of rudeness..
Whatever floats your boat I guess..

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Woodville56 wrote: »

I agree with most of the above ! I've come across some of the types you describe, like being at a well known birding site in early autumn and being ignored by 3 other "designer gear" birders present who barely said hello and discussed among themselves ad nauseum their past and planned birding holidays abroad and moaned about the wasted trip to the site , "nothing showing" etc.. For me, it was a real adventure, a wetland with loads of waders, some of which I could'nt identify, but a wonderful experience none the less. Having said that, I do admit to keeping a list, a life list of sorts, no rarities, just birds I see on my travels around local and Irish sites, I don't travel for rarities but I'am interested in recording whats locally available here, with a long way to go before I hit the 200+ species on the BWI website list. I bet some of the "twitchers" dont know their local patches or have never done IWeBS or Atlas work, yet travel far and wide for the fleeting rarity...vanity or what !!!!

Don't get me wrong. I think every nature watcher should keep lists of all sightings, be they birds, mammals, plants etc. It's the rarity chasing that makes a twitcher.
I have a garden list, a county list, a national and an international list but I won't go speeding down the country to add to any of them - hard to go down the country to add to my garden list but you know what I mean.

It's the same when out fishing. Guys will talk all day about this make of rod or that make of lure. I have to look at the label to know the make of any particular rod I might be using and I can't remember where I bought lures let alone what they are called. Price of gear seems an obsession with them as well.
So I suppose you get this in most sports or hobbies.

Judgement Day

Woodville56 wrote: »

I was in the YOC also - remember the Kestrel badge ???:)

Do I what!! I remember getting my Granny to sew it on to by birdwatching jacket and trying to persuade a local farmer that it gave us some sort of licence to walk all over his land. I can remember his bemused look - from more than 40 years ago - as we announced to him when challenged that 'we are are members of the YOC'.