Bitcoin/Litecoin

cryptocurrency

Any members here on the bitcoin bandwagon, been into it a over a year now and it's doing well. Should have moved in in 2010 instead of watching it for over two years and am hoping to avoid missing the boat again. Any looked into Litecoin, seems to be one to watch out for and was considering dipping my toes in...will it go MtGox and if not can you explain why not.
Thanks

The One Who Knocks

Interested too, I remember reading about them in 2010, ..imagine even investing a tenner back then!

cryptocurrency

I got in at $60 so happy enough. Thinking of going in more. Mate bought 400@ in the last 6 months and is still after more.

Like the look of Litecoin at 2 euro a pop as some are saying they too will rise like Silver to Bitcoins gold.

KyussBishop

These currencies are pretty volatile (intentionally so - there is, from my impression, a lot of deliberate market manipulation to make its value volatile for profit), and their future unpredictable (they are at risk of a government clampdown; MtGox getting shut down would have some pretty detrimental effects on the currency) - so it's a risky investment that could look not unlike a Ponzi-scheme down the line.

The basic fundamental problem with BitCoin, is that it is guaranteed to become permanently deflationary in the future (because the rate of growth of bitcoin slows over time, and will eventually stop altogether), which has all sorts of negative economic effects, which are a debate in themselves.


Also, if there's any sudden advance in cryptography that can undermine these currencies (not unlikely if these currencies are supposed to be around a long time), then that would lead to pretty disastrous effects, where the first person/group to successfully attack the currency, extracts a significant amount of resources from the bitcoin economy, before people realize the currency is being attacked, which will lead to either a severe devaluation of the currency (in line with how much easier it is to mine), or a complete destruction of it.

So, these are pretty interesting alternative currencies, but they are the playground of financial speculators and I doubt they will have any long-term stability.

alb

I'm more bullish on Bitcoin than I was 6 months ago. All the risks I perceived then seem lesser now.

There are more alt coins (Litecoin still the forerunner) than ever and yet Bitcoin is just getting further ahead as the leader. The Silk Road closure was a major event that in the past would have caused a huge panic and crash, instead some speculators anticipated this, sold high to buy back lower, but it rebounded within the day. People had claimed it was the only thing giving Bitcoin value at all, and yet it has risen over $50 since the closure.

Germany has declared itself non-hostile to Bitcoin, and even if the US gov do get hostile against it it will only drive it underground. The Chinese are buying it.

Mtgox is still a mess, but the Bitcoin market no longer depends on it, Bitstamp and btcchina alone often surpass it in daily volume.

Look at the Bitcoin sub-reddit, full of bullish positive stories: http://www.reddit.com/r/bitcoin Many mainstream media outlets which previously treated it as a joke are now starting to take it more seriously.

As for the technical risks, I'm not a quantum physicist but I am technically competent, I understand how Bitcoin works, and from what I've read the threat of the encryption being cracked anytime soon is negligible. This is the only real risk I see in the shortterm.

This thing is still only at the beginning of an S curve of adoption, and has crazy potential for gains. It's negligent to not own at least 1.

Pennystockwhiz

Im bullish on bitcoin in the long term.. I wish I listened to Max Keiser when he was recommending at $5 a bitcoin... The price will be MUCH MUCH higher in a few years

Rightwing

I've never really followed bitcoin but it does seem it's time will come.

FT reports that according to eBay CEO John Donahoe, "digital currency is going to be a very powerful thing."

Pennystockwhiz

Yeah the Ebay CEO is bullish on Bitcoin, he may incorporate into eBay'spayment system eventually.. Also the first Bitcoin ATM was setup in Vancouver, Canada last week.

Billy86

I think the Silk Road incident will actually help BitCoin a lot in the long run - it put it on the 'map' in terms of general public awareness so that a lot of people who had never heard of it before, did. Also the stories of people getting in a $1.50 and out at $250 or whatnot gave people an idea as to the potential and viability of it all - kind of like Napster did with digital media and the MP3, really.

Pretty funny take on it here, mind - http://www.cracked.com/video_18673_what-nobody-seems-to-understand-about-bitcoin.html

The One Who Knocks

WTF????????

Market Price Avg. Change 30d Volume
mtgoxUSD 318.5605 202.162 +57.577% 728213

Billy86

I wonder if that's somehow tied into Twitter, today of all days?

It's pretty suspect though, unless there's something I am completely missing out on.

The One Who Knocks

Thats it I'm going all in as soon as this bubble pops!

It was only at $150 this time last month!

andrew

moved to investments and markets forum

alb

Billy86 wrote: »

I wonder if that's somehow tied into Twitter, today of all days?

It's pretty suspect though, unless there's something I am completely missing out on.

It's nothing to do with twitter. This is bigger than twitter. See my earlier post in this thread about why I was/am so bullish - and I forgot to even mention the Second Market - Bitcoin Investment Trust, which gives gives institutional investors an entry point for the first time. I bought some more before this rush, as it was fairly expected (though not necessarily this fast). Bitcoin is growing in adoption and this is the consequence of that.

It goes to zero, or it goes to many zeros.

Billy86

It's a fair point, just surprised by such a MASSIVE leap in one day.

AugustusMinimus

Can someone in laymans terms, lay out why this virtual currency is going through the roof ?

Surely this is just a complete bubble which will eventually collapse. The only use I can see of this currency is in illegal on-line activities and if governments clamp down on this currency, then surely the price of it could collapse over night ?

Is this too simplistic a view ?

alb

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Can someone in laymans terms, lay out why this virtual currency is going through the roof ?

Surely this is just a complete bubble which will eventually collapse. The only use I can see of this currency is in illegal on-line activities and if governments clamp down on this currency, then surely the price of it could collapse over night ?

Is this too simplistic a view ?

The only use is illegal activities eh?

Have you ever tried to send 1million euro/dollars/whatever to another country, how much would it cost, how long would it take? have you ever tried to cross borders with that amount in cash or gold?

Have you ever tried to send 1 cent to someone in another country? how much does it cost?

How can any online business currently easily accept micro payments of less than a cent from customers if they would like to?

Have you ever had savings in government money diluted by money printing (quantative easing) or your money lose it's value over time due to monetary inflation?

I guess you weren't living in Cyprus either when they had a bail in and depositors could not access their funds and some lost a percentage of them.

Everyone complains about banks, their delays, their fees etc and now there's a real alternative emerging in decentralized currencies. This isn't a get rich quick scheme, it's an experiment in the worlds first engineered money that does not need a goverment or central bank to manage it.

I'm happy to answer any questions you have

The One Who Knocks

Do you think this is a bubble though?

alb

The One Who Knocks wrote: »

Do you think this is a bubble though?

In my opinion it's not - it's not like April when all the trading was on gox. It might correct back to down a bit, but I don't see it going below 200 again barring a complete failure. If this is a bubble, we might be at the start and something like 500 might be the top.

But speculation on something so volatile is difficult, I wouldn't chance day trading it personally.

Roonbox

The One Who Knocks wrote: »

Do you think this is a bubble though?

Its a bubble when it goes way beyond what people imagine is even possible, and when a large portion of people think it is something different.

It has the potential to be a huge bubble, I don't know enough about it to say whether it can really replace conventional currency.

alb

Bitcoin, as an invention is 5 years old. Here's a chart of the price over the last 4 years, with logarithmic scale. Does it seem crazy that it makes that final rise to 500, or is it just a predictable continuation of the trend? It's for everyone to decide for themselves.

http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/chart.png?width=940&m=mtgoxUSD&SubmitButton=Draw&r=1460&i=&c=0&s=&e=&Prev=&Next=&t=C&b=&a1=&m1=10&a2=&m2=25&x=0&i1=&i2=&i3=&i4=&v=0&cv=0&ps=0&l=1&p=0&

luscaa

where can i buy these?

harryr711

alb wrote: »

The only use is illegal activities eh?

Have you ever tried to send 1million euro/dollars/whatever to another country, how much would it cost, how long would it take? have you ever tried to cross borders with that amount in cash or gold?

Have you ever tried to send 1 cent to someone in another country? how much does it cost?

How can any online business currently easily accept micro payments of less than a cent from customers if they would like to?

Have you ever had savings in government money diluted by money printing (quantative easing) or your money lose it's value over time due to monetary inflation?

I guess you weren't living in Cyprus either when they had a bail in and depositors could not access their funds and some lost a percentage of them.

Everyone complains about banks, their delays, their fees etc and now there's a real alternative emerging in decentralized currencies. This isn't a get rich quick scheme, it's an experiment in the worlds first engineered money that does not need a goverment or central bank to manage it.

I'm happy to answer any questions you have

Have you ever tried to send €1m to another country? Would it be quicker and cheaper using bitcoin? What about for, say, €10k?

The One Who Knocks

harryr711 wrote: »

Have you ever tried to send €1m to another country? Would it be quicker and cheaper using bitcoin? What about for, say, €10k?

Yes, a lot cheaper & quicker.

alb

harryr711 wrote: »

Have you ever tried to send €1m to another country? Would it be quicker and cheaper using bitcoin? What about for, say, €10k?

There are no limits on the size of transfers, all transfers are close to instant, but take some time to reach full confirmation (about an hour at most) .

Of course bitcoin is based on a public ledger so we can browse all transactions, here's an example of some coins the FBI seized:

http://blockchain.info/tx/3bbeed6f41378be9f23d07e64fc510a9e7fda96c7ac34b0ef73c9eeb72bc737a

If you scroll to the bottom of the page you can see the details:

Total Input 250.01410173 BTC
Fees 0.0041 BTC

So at a price of 200euro per coin, that makes this 50k euro with a fee of only 82cent. For example.

harryr711

The One Who Knocks wrote: »

Yes, a lot cheaper & quicker.

Really? Using normal forex it'll take me 1-3 days to transfer the money depending where from/to, no fees, and a good exchange rate locked in.

Using bitcoin, have you seen the deposit and withdrawal times on the exchanges? Take Bitstamp (second largest bitcoin exchange in the world), it takes 2-6 days to deposit money and 2-3 days to withdraw. While I'm waiting for the deposit to clear I'm exposed to wild exchange rate fluctuations. With Mt. Gox (third largest exchange in the world, arguably the most reknowned), they say it can take up to a month to process withdrawals of €10k or more! The bitcoin exchanges may also charge deposit and/or withdrawal fees.

(I'm basing world ranking on this article: http://www.coindesk.com/btc-china-beats-mt-gox-bitstamp-become-worlds-1-bitcoin-exchange/ Obviously this fluctuates.)

zpehtsfd

harryr711 wrote: »

Really? Using normal forex it'll take me 1-3 days to transfer the money depending where from/to, no fees, and a good exchange rate locked in.

Using bitcoin, have you seen the deposit and withdrawal times on the exchanges? Take Bitstamp (second largest bitcoin exchange in the world), it takes 2-6 days to deposit money and 2-3 days to withdraw. While I'm waiting for the deposit to clear I'm exposed to wild exchange rate fluctuations. With Mt. Gox (third largest exchange in the world, arguably the most reknowned), they say it can take up to a month to process withdrawals of €10k or more! The bitcoin exchanges may also charge deposit and/or withdrawal fees.

(I'm basing world ranking on this article: http://www.coindesk.com/btc-china-beats-mt-gox-bitstamp-become-worlds-1-bitcoin-exchange/ Obviously this fluctuates.)

Harry you're supposed to drink that Koolaid "alb" sent you. Now stop being negligent and buy 1 NOW. Just chase that offer.

alb

harryr711 wrote: »

Really? Using normal forex it'll take me 1-3 days to transfer the money depending where from/to, no fees, and a good exchange rate locked in.

Using bitcoin, have you seen the deposit and withdrawal times on the exchanges? Take Bitstamp (second largest bitcoin exchange in the world), it takes 2-6 days to deposit money and 2-3 days to withdraw. While I'm waiting for the deposit to clear I'm exposed to wild exchange rate fluctuations. With Mt. Gox (third largest exchange in the world, arguably the most reknowned), they say it can take up to a month to process withdrawals of €10k or more! The bitcoin exchanges may also charge deposit and/or withdrawal fees.

(I'm basing world ranking on this article: http://www.coindesk.com/btc-china-beats-mt-gox-bitstamp-become-worlds-1-bitcoin-exchange/ Obviously this fluctuates.)

You're missing the point, I'm explaining why Bitcoin is useful as money itself, I'm not saying it's fast (or necessarily cheap) to transfer fiat into other fiat via bitcoin exchanges.

And besides, it's moving fiat through snail-banking (my analogy from email to snail-mail) that's the delay in those deposits and withdrawals to exchanges anyway. If I want to deposit bitcoin to an exchange it will take no more than an hour.

harryr711

alb wrote: »

You're missing the point, I'm explaining why Bitcoin is useful as money itself, I'm not saying it's fast (or necessarily cheap) to transfer fiat into other fiat via bitcoin exchanges.

And besides, it's moving fiat through snail-banking (my analogy from email to snail-mail) that's the delay in those deposits and withdrawals to exchanges anyway. If I want to deposit bitcoin to an exchange it will take no more than an hour.

No I'm not missing the point. You asked "Have you ever tried to send 1million euro/dollars/whatever to another country, how much would it cost, how long would it take?" and someone else posted that it's "a lot quicker and cheaper" (to use bitcoin for intl money transfers), without any caveats. The benefit of bitcoin for international money transfers has been mentioned in other fora and articles about it. But, if you have fiat at the start and/or want fiat at the end of the transaction, it doesn't stack up. If this was just purely down to "snail-banking", why is it so much quicker with normal forex? Liquidity is a major issue.

I think bitcoin is interesting, but there is a serious amount of ramping going on at the moment and people spouting bull**** "facts" and not stating any of the associated risks (or casually dismissing them).

alb

harryr711 wrote: »

No I'm not missing the point. You asked "Have you ever tried to send 1million euro/dollars/whatever to another country, how much would it cost, how long would it take?" and someone else posted that it's "a lot quicker and cheaper" (to use bitcoin for intl money transfers), without any caveats. The benefit of bitcoin for international money transfers has been mentioned in other fora and articles about it. But, if you have fiat at the start and/or want fiat at the end of the transaction, it doesn't stack up. If this was just purely down to "snail-banking", why is it so much quicker with normal forex? Liquidity is a major issue.

I think bitcoin is interesting, but there is a serious amount of ramping going on at the moment and people spouting bull**** "facts" and not stating any of the associated risks (or casually dismissing them).

I don't know why forex is quicker, but I know it is the snail-banking or the exchanges themselves being dodgy (for example mtgox has serious problems with fiat due to not complying with US regulations) that is the bottle neck in those situations. There are two fiat bank to bank transfers in the use case you mention, and these as we know can take days. I know that when I send bitcoin it takes no more than an hour. I do it regularly.

In future why would you be cashing out to gov fiat at all, just spend your bitcoin either online, or perhaps in a bricks and morter shop using a wallet on your phone. This is the point.

harryr711

alb wrote: »

I don't know why forex is quicker, but I know it is the snail-banking or the exchanges themselves being dodgy (for example mtgox has serious problems with fiat due to not complying with US regulations) that is the bottle neck in those situations. There are two fiat bank to bank transfers in the use case you mention, and these as we know can take days. I know that when I send bitcoin it takes no more than an hour. I do it regularly.

In future why would you be cashing out to gov fiat at all, just spend your bitcoin either online, or perhaps in a bricks and morter shop using a wallet on your phone. This is the point.

It's two bank to bank transfers if fiat is at both ends and one bank to bank transfer if fiat is at one end only, whether I use forex or a bitcoin exchange, and forex is cheaper and quicker in both of those scenarios and less risky.

The point is to stop using other currencies, just use bitcoin and not "cash out"? At what point do we abolish govt. fiat currencies?

KyussBishop

harryr711 wrote: »

The point is to stop using other currencies, just use bitcoin and not "cash out"? At what point do we abolish govt. fiat currencies?

You can't. You need to pay taxes in government fiat currencies (easy for government to enforce this), and that is always going to generate demand for those currencies, which will make them dominant over other currencies.

alb

harryr711 wrote: »

It's two bank to bank transfers if fiat is at both ends and one bank to bank transfer if fiat is at one end only, whether I use forex or a bitcoin exchange, and forex is cheaper and quicker in both of those scenarios and less risky.

The point is to stop using other currencies, just use bitcoin and not "cash out"? At what point do we abolish govt. fiat currencies?

I think they can both exist, as they do now, the point is to have a choice. Maybe one day the gov will allow payments of taxes in crypto currency. No one knows how it will all play out yet.

alb

Also does forex offer the same service so as Western Union or am I missing something?

Roonbox

This thing is on a tear, 170 to 320 in 2 weeks

Pennystockwhiz

Look at the 2yr chart for bitcoins, if I had some now id sell them and buy them back later at a cheaper price later on

murrayp4

Anyone know a decent site to buy Litecoins by SEPA?

Pennystockwhiz

murrayp4 wrote: »

Anyone know a decent site to buy Litecoins by SEPA?

I've been looking to buy Litecoins, but when I search google all that comes up is bitcoin.. Buy bitcoins directly using coinbase.com and then exchange your bitcoins for litecoins

arrowloopboy

An Aussie guy reckons his bitcoin wallet was hacked and robbed of 700k ,if this is true ,it could be quite damaging .

Pennystockwhiz

People need to start storing their Bitcoins offline

Gone West

arrowloopboy wrote: »

An Aussie guy reckons his bitcoin wallet was hacked and robbed of 700k ,if this is true ,it could be quite damaging .

Damaging to him, yes.
But people do understand that BTC is cryptographically secure, but maybe your computer is not.

alb

arrowloopboy wrote: »

An Aussie guy reckons his bitcoin wallet was hacked and robbed of 700k ,if this is true ,it could be quite damaging .

It's like people losing faith in the dollar because someone got pickpocketed, or losing faith in gold because someone with a metal detector found someones buried stash. Unfortunately this isn't the first case, and many people have lost what are now large amounts of money.

Since Bitcoin has had a value people have had them stolen either by trusting online wallets (inputs.io) or by not password protecting their wallet (I would like the wallet software to make this mandatory) or by getting a virus (I wouldn't run a wallet in Windows).

Bitcoin isn't foolproof, you need to be tech savy or use a paper wallet to be safe. In the future I'm sure some trustworthy online 'banks' will exist for those that don't want to be their own bank, but in the meantime it's the risk you take.

KyussBishop

If a bank is robbed, you get your money back because they are insured (among the fact that depositors are guaranteed up to a point, by the state - this is impossible with Bitcoin, since 'banks' need to be full-reserve, and you can't just create new coins on a whim) - if your Bitcoins are robbed, you have no insurance.

alb

KyussBishop wrote: »

If a bank is robbed, you get your money back because they are insured (among the fact that depositors are guaranteed up to a point, by the state - this is impossible with Bitcoin, since 'banks' need to be full-reserve, and you can't just create new coins on a whim) - if your Bitcoins are robbed, you have no insurance.

You're right, it was a bad analogy, edited my post to say pickpocketed instead, as it's a better real world comparison.

zpehtsfd

alb wrote: »

You're right, it was a bad analogy, edited my post to say pickpocketed instead, as it's a better real world comparison.

Who the hell caries 700K in their pocket? It's a ridiculous analogy.

Bitcoin is a hackers wet dream.

alb

zpehtsfd wrote: »

Who the hell caries 700K in their pocket? It's a ridiculous analogy.

Maybe the same person who keeps 700k in a single bitcoin wallet unsecured.

Komsomolitz

Can someone explain to me how exactly bitcoins have value in real world currency?

I understand the black market value but for the every day joe blogs out there how can it have a future as a real currency?

I mean you can't exactly walk into your every day commercial building where you buy x y and z and use bitcoins instead of euros to maintain your daily life can you?

It seems to me likes its basically dependent on financial institutions and then your normal commercial corporations actually recognizing and accepting it in trade.

Or would it be as simple as a bank like AIB accepting it and linking it up with your normal current account and then being able to use those bitcoins in real life via your standard debit/creditcard?

Has it gone that far already? I read somewhere about an ATM machine for bitcoins in canada.

alb

Komsomolitz wrote: »

Can someone explain to me how exactly bitcoins have value in real world currency?

They have value because it's the first real digital money that works. It has properties that gold and fiat money have that made them useful as money in the past such as scarcity, fungibility, portability, easily recognisable, difficult to counterfeit and adds other benefits that they lack (and on the other hand, also some risks they don't have). This explains why it has value.

Komsomolitz wrote: »

I understand the black market value but for the every day joe blogs out there how can it have a future as a real currency?

I mean you can't exactly walk into your every day commercial building where you buy x y and z and use bitcoins instead of euros to maintain your daily life can you?

This is a different question, you're asking whether people can use it in their everyday lives in the same way they have used traditional money, and the answer is that this is still in progress.

You would not need to do it via a bank or bank issued card though. This is one of the great things about bitcoin - you can pay a retailer DIRECTLY with no bank or payment processor middleman. You can install a bitcoin wallet on your smart phone, and dedicated hardware wallets are in development.

Some bricks and mortar businesses already accept bitcoin, but I don't even know of any in Ireland yet. The transaction works by the seller displaying a QR code to the customer who scans it with the camera on their phone. The code contains the payment address and the amount, which is then displayed on the phone screen, so the customer just needs press ok to authorize it. It's really not much different than using a traditional bank card.

EDIT: here's a video showing a someone buying beer in Singapore: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2fDYJFMXEg

Yes the first bitcoin ATM was installed in Canada recently, allowing exchanges to/from fiat money.

Bitcoin is still only entering the early adopter phase and depends on progress like this continuing if it's going to be used by everyday Joes in this manner.

However, use for online payments is already way ahead of this as it's much easier to incorporate. For example, last week shopify announced they'll be supporting it in their shops.

The One Who Knocks

Just hit $500!

but43r

The One Who Knocks wrote: »

Just hit $500!

Is there any real reason why Bitcoin has jumped up so much in value in last 3 weeks? It looks like the price has gone up due to speculation rather than real demand for it as a currenccy. If that's the case then surely BitCoin will crash soon. Look at what happened to it during Cyprus banking crisis, it shot up very quickly but then crashed right after.

AtomicHorror

but43r wrote: »

Is there any real reason why Bitcoin has jumped up so much in value in last 3 weeks? It looks like the price has gone up due to speculation rather than real demand for it as a currenccy. If that's the case then surely BitCoin will crash soon. Look at what happened to it during Cyprus banking crisis, it shot up very quickly but then crashed right after.

Is there any hard data on speculation versus use as currency? Preferably tracked over time.