Why people have little respect for Government

Rightwing

Kenny can declare war on welfare, but not on big public sector pensions and perks.

Where's the equity in that? And these judges and politicians and county managers leave a lot to be desired with some of their decisions in recent years.

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Judges and politicians will be able to keep bumper pensions – despite moves to restrict what ordinary workers can retire on.
Senior public servants are being allowed to build up a much larger pension under complicated changes in the Budget that have gone unnoticed.
The changes mean senior civil and public servants, like judges and county managers, who retire in the next five years will able to retire on pensions of up to €115,000 a year.
Ordinary workers will have a limit of half of this imposed on the size of pensions they can get to qualify under new tax rules. They will have to pay a 'super tax' of 70pc for pensions over €60,000. Most private sector workers will have a cap imposed on them, meaning they will not be able to get a pension that exceeds €60,000 if they are to avoid paying a "super tax" of around 70pc.He said public sector workers were already paid 50pc more than those in the private sector.

http://www.independent.ie/business/budget/judges-and-politicians-to-keep-bumper-pension-pots-29701816.html

Gumbo

Sure everybody knows the TD's get to keep their perks while the average PS member loses everything and is cut to the bone.

spank_inferno

kceire wrote: »

Sure everybody knows the TD's get to keep their perks while the average PS member loses everything and is cut to the bone.

Public service workers have not lost "everything".

They are not "cut to the bone".

The average wage for the PS is above 45k.

Gloomtastic!

'All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others'

Rightwing

spank_inferno wrote: »

Public service workers have not lost "everything".

They are not "cut to the bone".

The average wage for the PS is above 45k.

I agree, they are well looked after. But it's the top end of the PS that are getting away with little to no cuts. Why is government so reluctant to hit them?

hfallada

I may not agree with enda kenny. But at least he is acknowledging a large majority in Ireland feel that they should never have to work a day in their life and that the tax payer should pick up the tab. It kills me to see a family taking about how they love their new council house as its better than their flat. Why should someone who has never worked a day in their life, be entitled to a near free house?

Germany could their welfare to an amount that you can barely survive on. And their economy took off as people had to work as their was no alternative.

bobbysands81

spank_inferno wrote: »

Public service workers have not lost "everything".

They are not "cut to the bone".

The average wage for the PS is above 45k.

Many PS workers are cut to the bone.

Longer working hours, less pay, more taxes, greater workloads etc... all add up as much as mightn't like to admit it.

Quoting average pay of 45k is a meaningless stat for a woman bringing up two kids on 30k whilst unable to pay child care.

bobbysands81

Rightwing wrote: »

Kenny can declare war on welfare, but not on big public sector pensions and perks.

Where's the equity in that? And these judges and politicians and county managers leave a lot to be desired with some of their decisions in recent years.

---
Judges and politicians will be able to keep bumper pensions – despite moves to restrict what ordinary workers can retire on.
Senior public servants are being allowed to build up a much larger pension under complicated changes in the Budget that have gone unnoticed.
The changes mean senior civil and public servants, like judges and county managers, who retire in the next five years will able to retire on pensions of up to €115,000 a year.
Ordinary workers will have a limit of half of this imposed on the size of pensions they can get to qualify under new tax rules. They will have to pay a 'super tax' of 70pc for pensions over €60,000. Most private sector workers will have a cap imposed on them, meaning they will not be able to get a pension that exceeds €60,000 if they are to avoid paying a "super tax" of around 70pc.He said public sector workers were already paid 50pc more than those in the private sector.

http://www.independent.ie/business/budget/judges-and-politicians-to-keep-bumper-pension-pots-29701816.html

Ah yes, take an anomaly that benefits a few highly paid and pretend that the whole PS benefit from it.

Not one current Civil Servant will earn a pension of €115k so the article is (yet again) factually incorrect.

michael999999

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Many PS workers are cut to the bone.

Longer working hours, less pay, more taxes, greater workloads etc... all add up as much as mightn't like to admit it.

Quoting average pay of 45k is a meaningless stat for a woman bringing up two kids on 30k whilst unable to pay child care.

Ya the guard a few doors up from me that just bought a 2010 Audi must really be skint!

bobbysands81

michael999999 wrote: »

Ya the guard a few doors up from me that just bought a 2010 Audi must really be skint!

That's some chip on your shoulder over a neighbour buying a second hand car mate!

One person buying a second hand car = whole public sector are loaded!

Rightwing

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Ah yes, take an anomaly that benefits a few highly paid and pretend that the whole PS benefit from it.

Not one current Civil Servant will earn a pension of €115k so the article is (yet again) factually incorrect.

That's precisely my point :rolleyes:

Why not tackle the highly paid.

Gumbo

spank_inferno wrote: »

Public service workers have not lost "everything".

They are not "cut to the bone".

The average wage for the PS is above 45k.

In my opinion they have been. You have your opinion, I have mine. Simples.

michael999999 wrote: »

Ya the guard a few doors up from me that just bought a 2010 Audi must really be skint!

Agh sure that's 3 years old now. Who'd drive a car that old!

sarumite

kceire wrote: »

In my opinion they have been. You have your opinion, I have mine. Simples. \

considering the disparity between new and old PS workers, your opinion that they lose everything is factually incorrect.

SCOOP 64

hfallada wrote: »

I may not agree with enda kenny. But at least he is acknowledging a large majority in Ireland feel that they should never have to work a day in their life and that the tax payer should pick up the tab. .

So that would be most of the 400,000 then.

bobbysands81

Rightwing wrote: »

That's precisely my point :rolleyes:

Why not tackle the highly paid.

I agree, the highly paid (especially in the private sector) do not pay their fair share.

Sir Humphrey Appleby

bobbysands81 wrote: »

I agree, the highly paid (especially in the private sector) do not pay their fair share.

Correct, they pay more than there fair share!

Lu Tze

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Many PS workers are cut to the bone.

Longer working hours, less pay, more taxes, greater workloads etc... all add up as much as mightn't like to admit it.

Quoting average pay of 45k is a meaningless stat for a woman bringing up two kids on 30k whilst unable to pay child care.

Anybody have any idea what the median wage is in the public sector, very high average wages are quoted quite often in relation to the public sector, and often disputed as not reflective of pay over all in the public sector, hence the median wage may be more reflective of what the typical public sector wage is, if the average is distorted by a minority of high earners.

bobbysands81

Lu Tze wrote: »

Anybody have any idea what the median wage is in the public sector, very high average wages are quoted quite often in relation to the public sector, and often disputed as not reflective of pay over all in the public sector, hence the median wage may be more reflective of what the typical public sector wage is, if the average is distorted by a minority of high earners.

There are a few different things which ensure that a like for like comparison is very difficult.

For instance it should be quite easy to get average pay in public sector. Just get the wage bill and divide it by the amount of WTEs (Whole Time Equivalents), the answer is the average. However, training budgets, Allowances, Travel and Sub, OT are often included in this figure and distort the figure way up.

Public Sector employees in general have a far higher educational standard and are far more likely to be a member of a professional body. Basically, there are no 'burger flippers' in the Public Service.

The figures bandied about for the private sector are also false. They don't include the very highest earners no self-employed thus distorting the figures way down.

It remains that the only properly conducted like for like examination of pay between public and private sector found that public sector was paid less.

flutered

Rightwing wrote: »

I agree, they are well looked after. But it's the top end of the PS that are getting away with little to no cuts. Why is government so reluctant to hit them?

because they are the goverment, politicians come and go, but them folks are there until death.

bobbysands81

Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »

Correct, they pay more than there fair share!

Not in my opinion.

Those who have benefited most from this State should return more to the State.

Bleating Lamb

It is a pity that this thread has to revert to a public v private debate yet again
The interesting thing I take from FG behaviour in budget is they are acting like a govt in South America......the majority of citizens are feeling the pinch but f##k it we will make sure and look after ourselves!

zenno

hfallada wrote: »

I may not agree with enda kenny. But at least he is acknowledging a large majority in Ireland feel that they should never have to work a day in their life and that the tax payer should pick up the tab. It kills me to see a family taking about how they love their new council house as its better than their flat. Why should someone who has never worked a day in their life, be entitled to a near free house?

Germany could their welfare to an amount that you can barely survive on. And their economy took off as people had to work as their was no alternative.

Why does it kill "you" ? and why does it bother you. So do you think that the government should not house lazy people ? they are human beings after all are they not. The most basic needs for a family is housing whether they work or not. Should we just advance these people to homelessness instead ?. Every one needs housing regardless of their situation.

2013 and people still begrudge others in need of housing :rolleyes:

Lu Tze

bobbysands81 wrote: »

It remains that the only properly conducted like for like examination of pay between public and private sector found that public sector was paid less.

Can you link to this examination? Im in one of the few professions where private and public sector roles are directly comparable.

bobbysands81

Lu Tze wrote: »

Can you link to this examination? Im in one of the few professions where private and public sector roles are directly comparable.

It was Benchmarking.

Are you a solicitor or accountant?

Good loser

Lu Tze wrote: »

Can you link to this examination? Im in one of the few professions where private and public sector roles are directly comparable.

That so called 'examination' was a con trick. They said they shredded all the paperwork - if they did any that is.

TheRealPONeil

Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »

Correct, they pay more than there fair share!

... and then claim it back in tax reliefs.

sarumite

bobbysands81 wrote: »

It remains that the only properly conducted like for like examination of pay between public and private sector found that public sector was paid less.

Well, if it makes you feel better, at least PS pay is going up faster than pay in the private sector so any perceived gap will be decreasing.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/surprise-as-public-sector-salary-rise-outstrips-private-241350.html

"The latest figures from the Central Statistics Office show earnings in the public sector rose 1.3% in the year to Q2 2013, while those in the private sector increased by just 1%. "

Lumbo

sarumite wrote: »

Well, if it makes you feel better, at least PS pay is going up faster than pay in the private sector so any perceived gap will be decreasing.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/surprise-as-public-sector-salary-rise-outstrips-private-241350.html

"The latest figures from the Central Statistics Office show earnings in the public sector rose 1.3% in the year to Q2 2013, while those in the private sector increased by just 1%. "

Well that's already been addressed.

As these figures are for Q2 2013, they do not include cuts under Haddington Road.

Silentcorner

Basically, there are no 'burger flippers' in the Public Service.

What a disgraceful comment...let me correct your statement, there are no ex public sector workers working in the "burger flipping" industry...

The "burger flipping" industry is where many a good worker puts in a hard shift serving pig ignorant individuals who feel it perfectly acceptable to demean the way in which they earn a living...

I understand the point you are trying to make, but personally, if you had asked me who best serves their customers, burger flippers or our public service, I'd say burger flippers all day long...

Fr Tod Umptious

Bleating Lamb wrote: »

It is a pity that this thread has to revert to a public v private debate yet again
The interesting thing I take from FG behaviour in budget is they are acting like a govt in South America......the majority of citizens are feeling the pinch but f##k it we will make sure and look after ourselves!

Can you elaborate more on that ?

How are they doing what you say ?

Fr Tod Umptious

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Not in my opinion.

Those who have benefited most from this State should return more to the State.

How does someone highly paid in the private sector "benefit most from the State", than say someone who has never worked a day and lived off welfare all their lives.

Gloomtastic!

To bring it back on track.......

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Ah yes, take an anomaly that benefits a few highly paid and pretend that the whole PS benefit from it.

Not one current Civil Servant will earn a pension of €115k so the article is (yet again) factually incorrect.

But they can earn up to €115k before the super tax kicks in as opposed to €60k for a private pension. Isn't that what the article is saying?

It's like the initial pay cut imposed on the PS. The very top layer had that reversed because they claimed having lost out on their bonuses that was pay cut enough, bless them!

Rightwing

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

To bring it back on track.......



But they can earn up to €115k before the super tax kicks in as opposed to €60k for a private pension. Isn't that what the article is saying?

It's like the initial pay cut imposed on the PS. The very top layer had that reversed because they claimed having lost out on their bonuses that was pay cut enough, bless them!

That's the point. I think Labour need to have a read of this thread, it may give them a few pointers as to why they are at 8% odd in the polls.

Latest opinion polls show support remaining steady for the Government. As for cuts to welfare, they are trying to encourage people to get back to work and stop the massive drain on the public purse. The fact that generations of families choose to live on the dole is proof that for some, the dole is a lifestyle choice. It was never meant to be so. It is a support for those unfortunate enough to lose their jobs. Why should a young person, living at home with parents be getting even €100 a week? It should be cut to €50, with travel vouchers to get them to job interviews or college courses. Many families working in low paid jobs, would love to have even €50 a week for non essentials!

Gumbo

Ignore

Gumbo

Silentcorner wrote: »

What a disgraceful comment...let me correct your statement, there are no ex public sector workers working in the "burger flipping" industry...

The "burger flipping" industry is where many a good worker puts in a hard shift serving pig ignorant individuals who feel it perfectly acceptable to demean the way in which they earn a living...

I understand the point you are trying to make, but personally, if you had asked me who best serves their customers, burger flippers or our public service, I'd say burger flippers all day long...

What a way to over dramatize the post. It was a figure of speech and in no way demeaning to anybody. Anyone with half a brain would realize they were not being ignorant, but trying to get across a point, unless of course somebody just wants a PS V PrvS argument

Rightwing

Deleted User wrote: »

Latest opinion polls show support remaining steady for the Government. As for cuts to welfare, they are trying to encourage people to get back to work and stop the massive drain on the public purse. The fact that generations of families choose to live on the dole is proof that for some, the dole is a lifestyle choice. It was never meant to be so. It is a support for those unfortunate enough to lose their jobs. Why should a young person, living at home with parents be getting even €100 a week? It should be cut to €50, with travel vouchers to get them to job interviews or college courses. Many families working in low paid jobs, would love to have even €50 a week for non essentials!

I don't buy this. An economy can never achieve full employment, best will be about 2% unemployment. In the 'boom' our unemployment was 4-5%. That indicates that most want to work. Some undesirables don't, but who would employ them anyway?
Kenny needs to up his game rather than throw out a few cliches that he knows little about. Start cutting the harneys/aherns/nearys pensions and you will get respect.

Silentcorner

kceire wrote: »

What a way to over dramatize the post. It was a figure of speech and in no way demeaning to anybody. Anyone with half a brain would realize they were not being ignorant, but trying to get across a point, unless of course somebody just wants a PS V PrvS argument

I haven't overdramatised anything, have you any idea of the calibre of individual who has to "flip burgers" for a living? Like I said in my post, I understand the point the poster was trying to make, but in my opinion it was in poor taste...I detest snobbery in all its forms...maybe if a few more people spent a shift "flipping burgers" it might just change certain outlooks.

Back to the OP, it is very difficult to respect a government that takes a "do as we say" attitude as opposed to a "do as we do" attitude, they failed to establish moral authority...they could have easily.

RichardAnd

Deleted User wrote: »

It should be cut to €50, with travel vouchers to get them to job interviews or college courses. Many families working in low paid jobs, would love to have even €50 a week for non essentials!

Well you're certainly not in your 20s . I love how the older generations here always seem to think that they know what's best.

Travel vouchers from the department of social welfare you say. Yes, I can see it now. A young man applies for a voucher, fills out a form and then waits ten weeks for his five euro train ticket to arrive in the post from the welfare office.

sarumite

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Not in my opinion.

Those who have benefited most from this State should return more to the State.

I disagree. People on benefits probably don't have the ability to return more to the state.

RichardAnd

RichardAnd wrote: »

Well you're certainly not in your 20s . I love how the older generations here always seem to think that they know what's best.

Travel vouchers from the department of social welfare you say. Yes, I can see it now. A young man applies for a voucher, fills out a form and then waits ten weeks for his five euro train ticket to arrive in the post from the welfare office.

Most of us older generation survived the high tax and interest rates of the 70's and the recession of the 80's, so we do know what waste is and how to avoid it. We also know that things will get better.
Now, where did I park my zimmer frame???

Gloomtastic!

This thread isn't about the people at the bottom of the ladder, it's about the parasites at the top!

Please continue....... :-)

That great socialist man of the people, Michael D Higgins, his pension will be well in excess of €115k for the rest of his life, why?

Question: Does a PS pension continue to be paid to their spouse after their death?

Gumbo

Silentcorner wrote: »

have you any idea of the calibre of individual who has to "flip burgers" for a living? Like I said in my post, I understand the point the poster was trying to make, but in my opinion it was in poor taste...I detest snobbery in all its forms...maybe if a few more people spent a shift "flipping burgers" it might just change certain outlooks.

Yes. I spent some time doing it while still in school studying

hfallada

Silentcorner wrote: »

I haven't overdramatised anything, have you any idea of the calibre of individual who has to "flip burgers" for a living? Like I said in my post, I understand the point the poster was trying to make, but in my opinion it was in poor taste...I detest snobbery in all its forms...maybe if a few more people spent a shift "flipping burgers" it might just change certain outlooks.

Back to the OP, it is very difficult to respect a government that takes a "do as we say" attitude as opposed to a "do as we do" attitude, they failed to establish moral authority...they could have easily.

The government is borrowing billions a year to fund expenditure. State pensions for former TDs is probably less than €20 million a year. Cutting former TDs pensions to nothing still will have us borrowing billions each year. But cutting welfare will help us return to a balanced budget.

Silentcorner

kceire wrote: »

Yes. I spent some time doing it while still in school studying

So they do have burger flippers in the P.S....you are defending a post that said otherwise...quick question..would you by extension believe that you're former colleague's are not worthy of a job in the P.S.?

It is an interesting point to consider, how many HSE admin staff (for example)would it take to run a McDonalds Restuarante? We could kiss goodbye to the Eurosaver menu for a start, increase waiting times etc...but ya let's look down our noses at the ability of enterprise to serve a demanding public, very quickly at and charge very little for it...

Gumbo

Silentcorner wrote: »

So they do have burger flippers in the P.S

I dont know, your words, not mine.
I havent worked in the PS all my life ya know

Silentcorner

kceire wrote: »

I dont know, your words, not mine.
I havent worked in the PS all my life ya know

????????????

Let's just let the thread get back on topic shall we...

TheRealPONeil

[QUOTE=It is an interesting point to consider, how many HSE admin staff (for example)would it take to run a McDonalds Restuarante? We could kiss goodbye to the Eurosaver menu for a start, increase waiting times etc...but ya let's look down our noses at the ability of enterprise to serve a demanding public, very quickly at and charge very little for it...[/QUOTE]

Might be premature to be looking down our noses at those HSE admin staff especially when our burger flipping enterprise will be responsible for half of their patients in twenty years time !

bobbysands81

Silentcorner wrote: »

What a disgraceful comment...let me correct your statement, there are no ex public sector workers working in the "burger flipping" industry...

The "burger flipping" industry is where many a good worker puts in a hard shift serving pig ignorant individuals who feel it perfectly acceptable to demean the way in which they earn a living...

I understand the point you are trying to make, but personally, if you had asked me who best serves their customers, burger flippers or our public service, I'd say burger flippers all day long...

Don't look for offence when none was meant.

If you want to look at what section of Irish workers gets slated the most then look at Public Sector workers and not our friends in the fast food industry.

Silentcorner

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Don't look for offence when none was meant.

If you want to look at what section of Irish workers gets slated the most then look at Public Sector workers and not our friends in the fast food industry.

Stand over what you said..."there are no burger flippers working in the public sector"....there was plenty of ways you could have expressed the same sentiment...you choose that one...

If "burger flippers" were getting paid high salaries with generous T&Cs all paid for by the taxpayer you can rest assured they'd be slated too...

bobbysands81

Silentcorner wrote: »

Stand over what you said..."there are no burger flippers working in the public sector"....there was plenty of ways you could have expressed the same sentiment...you choose that one...

If "burger flippers" were getting paid high salaries with generous T&Cs all paid for by the taxpayer you can rest assured they'd be slated too...

I've stood over what I've said and fail to see why you're taking offence.

There are far more highly skilled jobs in public sector than private sector thus meaning higher wages. In no way am
I slating or demeaning any workers for any job they do but I think you know that.