Garda power to remove children from family home: only as a last resort?

Iwannahurl

I'm not going to comment on the details of any current cases, but recent reports in the Irish media reminded me of something that child law expert Dr Geoffrey Shannon, the government's Special Rapporteur on Child Protection, said a few years ago.

Under the Child Care Act, Gardai have the power to take a child out of a family home where there is "an immediate and serious risk".

However, as I recall Dr Shannon has warned more than once that such an action should only be the last resort in the most exceptional of cases.

"It must really be a matter of life and death so to speak. You’ve got to remember, when you intervene in a family you are not only disrupting their statutory rights but there are also constitutional rights, you really have to prove a very high and onerous test.

"It’s going to hinge on that, whether the quality of the information communicated to the gardaí should have led the gardaí to believe that this was a life and death type situation and that’s going to be the critical issue in addressing this issue."

The Children's Right Alliance have said the same, as has the Law Society.

Children First national guidelines for the protection and welfare of children state the following (emphasis added):

The Garda Síochána is vested with the power to remove a child to safety under Section 12 of the Child Care Act 1991 where a member of the Gardaí has reasonable grounds for believing that there is an immediate and serious risk to the health or welfare of a child and it would not be sufficient for the protection of that child to await the making of an application for an Emergency Care Order by the HSE.

Geoffrey Shannon's words stuck in my mind for some reason, and I wonder whether the roadmap he refers to is as clear as he seems to think it is.

jamesdiver

If there was a flight risk, then yes it is a last resort, until it can be sorted out by whatever means necessary (DNA etc). They should respond with the same powers if there is reasonable doubt.

I would be investigating the source of the original complaint to the journalist, for any relationship to the victims. It could be a malicious caller, a genuine mistake, or fraud (I'd imagine there is a hefty legal battle on the way for Gardai and HSE).

vitani

jamesdiver wrote: »

I would be investigating the source of the original complaint to the journalist, for any relationship to the victims. It could be a malicious caller, a genuine mistake, or fraud (I'd imagine there is a hefty legal battle on the way for Gardai and HSE).

I kind of half agree, but the danger in doing that is that you discourage people from reporting something they find suspicious, in case it backfires on them.

expectationlost

jamesdiver wrote: »

If there was a flight risk, then yes it is a last resort, until it can be sorted out by whatever means necessary (DNA etc). They should respond with the same powers if there is reasonable doubt.

I would be investigating the source of the original complaint to the journalist, for any relationship to the victims. It could be a malicious caller, a genuine mistake, or fraud (I'd imagine there is a hefty legal battle on the way for Gardai and HSE).

why would there be flightrisk, because they feared their chidlren would be taken away from them, so the garda claim there is a flight risk for fear they created.

bravestar

expectationlost wrote: »

why would there be flightrisk, becuase they feared they chidlren would be taken away from them, so the garda claim there is a flight risk for fear they created.

Because by their very nature they are a nomadic people. Did you forget to have your spoon of common sense this morning with your coco pops?

jamesdiver

Specifically in this case; it is in their nature and culture to travel and move around, so I would call this a flight risk.

source

The nature of the allegation and the lack of paper work on behalf of the parents meant the Gardai were right to remove the child.

She looked ethically different to her parents, who could not provide documentation to prove she is their daughter. The Gardai would have been looking at a kidnapping charge for the parents.

You do not leave a child with a couple you believe may have kidnapped that child. You remove the child and return the child when sufficient evidence has been provided. If the Gardai hadn't removed the child they would have been negligent given the details presented to them.

periodictable

Sooner the cops make a mistake than risk the well being of a child.

Important to remember that the DNA tests take longer than they show in CSI.

Pawwed Rig

jamesdiver wrote: »

Specifically in this case;

Specifically in this case they have been living in Ireland for years since before the child was born.

source wrote: »

She looked ethically different to her parents, who could not provide documentation to prove she is their daughter. The Gardai would have been looking at a kidnapping charge for the parents.

You do not leave a child with a couple you believe may have kidnapped that child. You remove the child and return the child when sufficient evidence has been provided. If the Gardai hadn't removed the child they would have been negligent given the details presented to them.

So any child who looks ethnically different to his parents should be required to carry documentation proving who they are at all times? Or is it just if they have blond hair? What about the other non blond children? Why were they left?
They did provide documentation but the passport picture did not look like the child. Maybe they couldn't find the birth cert? I know I have no idea where mine is.
This was a major screw up by AGS and the family will be getting a large payout in due course. It was inevitable that this would happen in some jurisdiction after the Greece incident but why did it have to be Ireland again? We constantly embarrass ourselves on the international stage.

mitosis

I presume they only dna match with the mother?

expectationlost

they been living here for atleast 7 years have they not

jamesdiver

Regardless, they are still Roma, and its their culture (which I've no issue with).

The gardai responded to a report which they rightly followed up. There was confusion at the house regarding a birth cert, or the date/hospital the child was born at. So what would you recommend the gardai do in this situation? The safe option was taken, the family and child will get over it.

I think the investigation should focus on who, and why the original information was given to the journalist, as there could underlying be malice in the local community for the family in which case they need support. The gardai and HSE did their jobs accordingly (apart from letting the media get hold of the story and blow it out of proportion).

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Specifically in this case they have been living in Ireland for years since before the child was born.


So any child who looks ethnically different to his parents should be required to carry documentation proving who they are at all times? Or is it just if they have blond hair? What about the other non blond children? Why were they left?
They did provide documentation but the passport picture did not look like the child. Maybe they couldn't find the birth cert? I know I have no idea where mine is.
This was a major screw up by AGS and the family will be getting a large payout in due course. It was inevitable that this would happen in some jurisdiction after the Greece incident but why did it have to be Ireland again? We constantly embarrass ourselves on the international stage.

source

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Specifically in this case they have been living in Ireland for years since before the child was born.


So any child who looks ethnically different to his parents should be required to carry documentation proving who they are at all times? Or is it just if they have blond hair? What about the other non blond children? Why were they left?
They did provide documentation but the passport picture did not look like the child. Maybe they couldn't find the birth cert? I know I have no idea where mine is.
This was a major screw up by AGS and the family will be getting a large payout in due course. It was inevitable that this would happen in some jurisdiction after the Greece incident but why did it have to be Ireland again? We constantly embarrass ourselves on the international stage.

That's not what I said, if an allegation is made the parents should be able to give basic answers to basic questions about the birth of the child, and provide a birth cert for the child.

The answers given to the Gardai didn't add up, this coupled with the child looking different to the parents led to a reasonable reaction of removing the child until Gardai could get to the bottom of the situation.

Which is exactly what happened.

If you don't know where your birth cert is then that's your problem, my wife's, my child's and my birth cert and passports are all in a file box with other important documents. Disorganisation is no excuse.

Pawwed Rig

jamesdiver wrote: »

Regardless, they are still Roma, and its their culture (which I've no issue with).

So because they are Roma they should be treated differently to Irish people? You are seriously making that point on a public forum?

jamesdiver wrote: »

The gardai responded to a report which they rightly followed up. There was confusion at the house regarding a birth cert, or the date/hospital the child was born at. So what would you recommend the gardai do in this situation? The safe option was taken, the family and child will get over it.

My wife is Asian. When we have kids do I need to be constantly waiting for AGS to crash through the door because my child looks ethnically different to me? Or what if I am at the shop? Should I bring the birth cert just in case and passport just in case? Will I be subject to DNA tests to prove the child is mine at the whim of AGS? Is this the type of country we want to live in?

AGS responded to a report that was wrong and they used excessive force to take a child away from it's family. They made an error of judgement which they are now going to pay the cost of (or should I say we) and rightfully so. There was no cause to genuinely believe that the child was not theirs other than the colour of it's hair otherwise why only take the blond child??

What do I recomend they do? I recomend they do nothing as they were completely wrong.
At least substantiate the allegation before removing a child from her family.

source wrote: »

The answers given to the Gardai didn't add up, this coupled with the child looking different to the parents led to a reasonable reaction of removing the child until Gardai could get to the bottom of the situation.

In what way did they not add up?
AFAIK the Coombe also made mistakes here.
Bear in mind this family did nothing wrong so have no obligation to engage with the Gardai.

source

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

So because they are Roma they should be treated differently to Irish people? You are seriously making that point on a public forum?



My wife is Asian. When we have kids do I need to be constantly waiting for AGS to crash through the door because my child looks ethnically different to me? Or what if I am at the shop? Should I bring the birth cert just in case and passport just in case? Will I be subject to DNA tests to prove the child is mine at the whim of AGS? Is this the type of country we want to live in?

AGS responded to a report that was wrong and they used excessive force to take a child away from it's family. They made an error of judgement which they are now going to pay the cost of (or should I say we) and rightfully so. There was no cause to genuinely believe that the child was not theirs other than the colour of it's hair otherwise why only take the blond child??

What do I recomend they do? I recomend they do nothing as they were completely wrong.
At least substantiate the allegation before removing a child from her family.


In what way did they not add up?
AFAIK the Coombe also made mistakes here.
Bear in mind this family did nothing wrong so have no obligation to engage with the Gardai.

Firstly your hyperbole is hurting my brain, secondly they did substantiate the claim, they carried out an investigation and found at the end that the complainant was wrong, child was returned.

Seeing as were being hyperbolic, should the Greek authorities return the girl there to the roma family until they've gotten to the bottom of the situation?

In what way did they not add up? The parents according to another poster couldn't answer the question which hospital their child was born in. They couldn't provide a birth cert, the child looked like she was a different ethnicity to the parents.

You can't just ignore a Garda investigation because you've done nothing wrong, if they have received a complain they are obliged to investigate, that is what they did.

jamesdiver

That's not what I said, I was asked why I thought the my were a flight risk. What are you insinuating? Judges regularly refuse bail for fl

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

So because they are Roma they should be treated differently to Irish people? You are seriously making that point on a public forum?



My wife is Asian. When we have kids do I need to be constantly waiting for AGS to crash through the door because my child looks ethnically different to me? Or what if I am at the shop? Should I bring the birth cert just in case and passport just in case? Will I be subject to DNA tests to prove the child is mine at the whim of AGS? Is this the type of country we want to live in?

AGS responded to a report that was wrong and they used excessive force to take a child away from it's family. They made an error of judgement which they are now going to pay the cost of (or should I say we) and rightfully so. There was no cause to genuinely believe that the child was not theirs other than the colour of it's hair otherwise why only take the blond child??

What do I recomend they do? I recomend they do nothing as they were completely wrong.
At least substantiate the allegation before removing a child from her family.


In what way did they not add up?
AFAIK the Coombe also made mistakes here.
Bear in mind this family did nothing wrong so have no obligation to engage with the Gardai.

Pawwed Rig

jamesdiver wrote: »

That's not what I said, I was asked why I thought the my were a flight risk. What are you insinuating? Judges regularly refuse bail for fl

So they are a flight risk because of their race? That is your point.:eek:

source wrote: »

Firstly your hyperbole is hurting my brain, secondly they did substantiate the claim, they carried out an investigation and found at the end that the complainant was wrong, child was returned.

Yes by infringing on the rights of a family based on racial profiling but hey it's ok because they are Roma and everyone knows what they're like and sure the child would probably be better off away from them anyway right?

The Greek authorities found a child who did not belong to the family. Different case, different country, different circumstance. The only commonality is Roma and blond. I have no idea what the Greek constitution/law says about the family and the family home or what evidence they had and it is completely irrelevant. Why not compare a similar case in Ireland?

source wrote: »

The parents according to another poster couldn't answer the question which hospital their child was born in.

That's your source? Another poster? They were reporting 2 days ago that the child was born in the Coombe.

source wrote: »

They couldn't provide a birth cert, the child looked like she was a different ethnicity to the parents.

So the Guards are now qualified to determine a persons ethnicity? They were wrong by the way. But sure it's grand as she looks different.

source wrote: »

You can't just ignore a Garda investigation because you've done nothing wrong, if they have received a complain they are obliged to investigate, that is what they did.

Investigate away. But they were still wrong. Wrong as in incorrect as in mistaken. So why traumatise the child for no reason? Leave her in situ unless there is an immediate threat (which there wasn't) and conclude the investigation in a humane manner. So again they were wrong.

I honestly cannot see how anyone can defend this other than because of a negative attitude towards the Roma or a Guard. Would never happen to an Irish family.

source

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

So they are a flight risk because of their race? That is your point.:eek:


Yes by infringing on the rights of a family based on racial profiling but hey it's ok because they are Roma and everyone knows what they're like and sure the child would probably be better off away from them anyway right?

The Greek authorities found a child who did not belong to the family. Different case, different country, different circumstance. The only commonality is Roma and blond. I have no idea what the Greek constitution/law says about the family and the family home or what evidence they had and it is completey irrelevant. Why not compare a similar case in Ireland?


That's your source? Another poster? They were reporting 2 days ago that the child was born in the Coombe.


So the Guards are now qualified to determine a persons ethnicity? They were wrong by the way. But sure it's grand as she looks different.


Investigate away. But they were still wrong. Wrong as in incorrect as in mistaken. So why traumatise the child for no reason? Leave her in situ unless there is an immediate threat (which there wasn't) and conclude the investigation in a humane manner. So again they were wrong.

I honestly cannot see how anyone can defend this other than because of a negative attitude towards the Roma or a Guard. Would never happen to an Irish family.

It was reported to the Gardai as bring the same scenario as what happened in Greece, so in the eyes of the investigating members it was the exact same situation, and had to be investigated as such. If it turned out to be the case would you be okay with the Gardai leaving a child with kidnappers?

Because in the eyes of the Gardai in the situation that's what they were potentially dealing with, and they had to treat it as such until they could prove otherwise.

vitani

I thought the parents had a birth cert but it was thought it might have been forged. Wasn't there a passport as well, but the photo was of the girl as a baby so didn't prove anything? I'm not sure what else the parents were supposed to produce.

My name is URL

If Gardai genuinely had a reasonable suspicion that the couple had committed a crime as serious as kidnapping, then how on earth was the decision to leave the other sibling with them, until the matter was investigated, reached? And if they were truly seen as being a flight risk, then why were neither of them arrested on suspicion of committing such a serious crime?

Turner

My name is URL wrote: »

If Gardai genuinely had a reasonable suspicion that the couple had committed a crime as serious as kidnapping, then how on earth was the decision to leave the other sibling with them, until the matter was investigated, reached? And if they were truly seen as being a flight risk, then why were neither of them arrested on suspicion of committing such a serious crime?

I hope you voiced these concerns to the Gardai while this whole investigation was taking place??

It was common knowledge that other siblings were left in the house, due to media interviews etc...

Did you inform the Gardai of your concerns? or are you only doing it now?

Why would you wait until now to voice these concerns?

My name is URL

Turner wrote: »

I hope you voiced these concerns to the Gardai while this whole investigation was taking place??

It was common knowledge that other siblings were left in the house, due to media interviews etc...

Did you inform the Gardai of your concerns? or are you only doing it now?

Why would you wait until now to voice these concerns?

I'm posting in a thread that was started at 10.46 this morning, and asking a pertinent question. Is there a problem with that?

Turner

If you only heard about this whole incident at 10:46 this morning then that's ok.

Its a pity that you only heard about the whole thing so late. You could have been able to offer so much advice so much sooner, rather than after the event.

Have you heard about the blonde haired blue eyed girl in greece?

My name is URL

Turner wrote: »

If you only heard about this whole incident at 10:46 this morning then that's ok.

Its a pity that you only heard about the whole thing so late. You could have been able to offer so much advice so much sooner, rather than after the event.

Have you heard about the blonde haired blue eyed girl in greece?

I'm not sure what you're getting at and don't really have the time nor interest in getting into whatever it is.

What are you on about 'offering advice'? =/

I asked two fairly straightforward questions, both of which took into account what others have said in this thread.

source wrote: »

If it turned out to be the case would you be okay with the Gardai leaving a child with kidnappers?

Because in the eyes of the Gardai in the situation that's what they were potentially dealing with, and they had to treat it as such until they could prove otherwise.

My name is URL wrote: »

then how on earth was the decision to leave the other sibling with them, until the matter was investigated, reached?

Is that an unfair question to ask? People keep saying that the Gardai had a reasonable suspicion that the couple had committed a very serious crime, serious enough to warrant taking their kid away. How so did it not warrant arresting the couple, or taking the other child also?

And what exactly does this have to do with the Greek case?

bravestar

My name is URL wrote: »

Is that an unfair question to ask? People keep saying that the Gardai had a reasonable suspicion that the couple had committed a very serious crime, serious enough to warrant taking their kid away. How so did it not warrant arresting the couple, or taking the other child also?

Unles you are part of the investigation or a family member directly concerned with this then to be honest, it's none of your business.

But if your really that concerned, why not skip all this and go have a chat to the Roma family? Oh wait, that might involve less of the arm chair preaching and actually doing something with your time.

My name is URL

bravestar wrote: »

Unles you are part of the investigation or a family member directly concerned with this then to be honest, it's none of your business.

But if your really that concerned, why not skip all this and go have a chat to the Roma family? Oh wait, that might involve less of the arm chair preaching and actually doing something with your time.

Insults.. if that's all this place has to offer for anyone daring to ask a question then it doesn't say much about the forum.

Not sure why I expected anything other than that anyway.

dharma200

bravestar wrote: »

Unles you are part of the investigation or a family member directly concerned with this then to be honest, it's none of your business.

But if your really that concerned, why not skip all this and go have a chat to the Roma family? Oh wait, that might involve less of the arm chair preaching and actually doing something with your time.

By your own admission it is none of your business either, unless you are directly concerned, if so you shouldn't be spouting on a public Internet forum.

I suspect telling people what and how they should be concerned with issues involving police cock ups and obvious racial profiling, is also arm chair preaching, which ofcourse should be encouraged in a public Internet forum.

Pawwed Rig

source wrote: »

Because in the eyes of the Gardai in the situation that's what they were potentially dealing with, and they had to treat it as such until they could prove otherwise.

Ah ok guilty until proven innocent. Gotcha

bravestar wrote: »

Unles you are part of the investigation or a family member directly concerned with this then to be honest, it's none of your business.

Of course it is our business. It is everyones business that AGS have decided that the way someone looks is grounds for removal from the family home. If my neighbour has a gripe with me can I expect the same treatment if he makes a malicious call? This is state sponsored racism and I don't think I am being hysterical by saying that. The responses on here are very concerning as I assume some are actually members of AGS.

angelfire9

I have dark hair my almost three year old is blonde (I have blonde siblings) but she looks nothing like me :cool:
She doesn't have a passport but I do know where her birth cert is
I also know her exact date and place of birth and this can be verified by a phone call to limerick maternity

For some reason the parents in this case allegedly gave the wrong DOB for the child which is probably why the maternity hospital couldn't find matching records

Flip the coin for a moment
Nosy neighbour rings Gardai "you know that Maria kid in Greece.. Well there's a Roma family next to me with a blonde haired blue eyed child that looks nothing like her parents"

Gardaí call to house

Garda: Can you verify that this child is your daughter"
Parents: She's ours what info do you want?
Garda: Do you have a copy if her birthcert?
Parents: No
Garda: Do you have her passport?
Parents : Yes, it's here but it is more than 5 years old it looks nothing like her
Garda: What is her date of birth
Parents : Not sure I think it's 5th of September 2010 (using artistic licence here)
Garda: Where was she born
Parents: The Coombe

Gardaí ring the Coombe but there is no record of a female child born to Roma parents on 05/09/2010

Garda: Ok, look I am not convinced the child is yours I will get a doctor in to take DNA samples and leave her here with ye til the results come back

Samples are taken and sent off
Gardaí go away, child is left with parents

2 days later DNA samples come back, child is not related to either parent
Gardaí return to house but family have absconded

The gardaí are criticised for letting a vulnerable child in the company of her kidnappers

Can you imagine the headlines??

bravestar

angelfire9 wrote: »

I have dark hair my almost three year old is blonde (I have blonde siblings) but she looks nothing like me :cool:
She doesn't have a passport but I do know where her birth cert is
I also know her exact date and place of birth and this can be verified by a phone call to limerick maternity

For some reason the parents in this case allegedly gave the wrong DOB for the child which is probably why the maternity hospital couldn't find matching records

Flip the coin for a moment
Nosy neighbour rings Gardai "you know that Maria kid in Greece.. Well there's a Roma family next to me with a blonde haired blue eyed child that looks nothing like her parents"

Gardaí call to house

Garda: Can you verify that this child is your daughter"
Parents: She's ours what info do you want?
Garda: Do you have a copy if her birthcert?
Parents: No
Garda: Do you have her passport?
Parents : Yes, it's here but it is more than 5 years old it looks nothing like her
Garda: What is her date of birth
Parents : Not sure I think it's 5th of September 2010 (using artistic licence here)
Garda: Where was she born
Parents: The Coombe

Gardaí ring the Coombe but there is no record of a female child born to Roma parents on 05/09/2010

Garda: Ok, look I am not convinced the child is yours I will get a doctor in to take DNA samples and leave her here with ye til the results come back

Samples are taken and sent off
Gardaí go away, child is left with parents

2 days later DNA samples come back, child is not related to either parent
Gardaí return to house but family have absconded

The gardaí are criticised for letting a vulnerable child in the company of her kidnappers

Can you imagine the headlines??

Nice to see some more people with a bit of common sense.

To all those other posts responding to me, I couldn't be bothered to quote you. You weren't there, have no idea what actually happened and come next week, will have something new to winge and moan about.

If you think you have all the answers, quit whining, go join AGS and walk the walk. Or does that sound too much like hard work for you.