Garda power to remove children from family home: only as a last resort?

Iwannahurl

I'm not going to comment on the details of any current cases, but recent reports in the Irish media reminded me of something that child law expert Dr Geoffrey Shannon, the government's Special Rapporteur on Child Protection, said a few years ago.

Under the Child Care Act, Gardai have the power to take a child out of a family home where there is "an immediate and serious risk".

However, as I recall Dr Shannon has warned more than once that such an action should only be the last resort in the most exceptional of cases.

"It must really be a matter of life and death so to speak. You’ve got to remember, when you intervene in a family you are not only disrupting their statutory rights but there are also constitutional rights, you really have to prove a very high and onerous test.

"It’s going to hinge on that, whether the quality of the information communicated to the gardaí should have led the gardaí to believe that this was a life and death type situation and that’s going to be the critical issue in addressing this issue."

The Children's Right Alliance have said the same, as has the Law Society.

Children First national guidelines for the protection and welfare of children state the following (emphasis added):

The Garda Síochána is vested with the power to remove a child to safety under Section 12 of the Child Care Act 1991 where a member of the Gardaí has reasonable grounds for believing that there is an immediate and serious risk to the health or welfare of a child and it would not be sufficient for the protection of that child to await the making of an application for an Emergency Care Order by the HSE.

Geoffrey Shannon's words stuck in my mind for some reason, and I wonder whether the roadmap he refers to is as clear as he seems to think it is.

jamesdiver

If there was a flight risk, then yes it is a last resort, until it can be sorted out by whatever means necessary (DNA etc). They should respond with the same powers if there is reasonable doubt.

I would be investigating the source of the original complaint to the journalist, for any relationship to the victims. It could be a malicious caller, a genuine mistake, or fraud (I'd imagine there is a hefty legal battle on the way for Gardai and HSE).

vitani

jamesdiver wrote: »

I would be investigating the source of the original complaint to the journalist, for any relationship to the victims. It could be a malicious caller, a genuine mistake, or fraud (I'd imagine there is a hefty legal battle on the way for Gardai and HSE).

I kind of half agree, but the danger in doing that is that you discourage people from reporting something they find suspicious, in case it backfires on them.

expectationlost

jamesdiver wrote: »

If there was a flight risk, then yes it is a last resort, until it can be sorted out by whatever means necessary (DNA etc). They should respond with the same powers if there is reasonable doubt.

I would be investigating the source of the original complaint to the journalist, for any relationship to the victims. It could be a malicious caller, a genuine mistake, or fraud (I'd imagine there is a hefty legal battle on the way for Gardai and HSE).

why would there be flightrisk, because they feared their chidlren would be taken away from them, so the garda claim there is a flight risk for fear they created.

bravestar

expectationlost wrote: »

why would there be flightrisk, becuase they feared they chidlren would be taken away from them, so the garda claim there is a flight risk for fear they created.

Because by their very nature they are a nomadic people. Did you forget to have your spoon of common sense this morning with your coco pops?

jamesdiver

Specifically in this case; it is in their nature and culture to travel and move around, so I would call this a flight risk.

source

The nature of the allegation and the lack of paper work on behalf of the parents meant the Gardai were right to remove the child.

She looked ethically different to her parents, who could not provide documentation to prove she is their daughter. The Gardai would have been looking at a kidnapping charge for the parents.

You do not leave a child with a couple you believe may have kidnapped that child. You remove the child and return the child when sufficient evidence has been provided. If the Gardai hadn't removed the child they would have been negligent given the details presented to them.

periodictable

Sooner the cops make a mistake than risk the well being of a child.

Important to remember that the DNA tests take longer than they show in CSI.

Pawwed Rig

jamesdiver wrote: »

Specifically in this case;

Specifically in this case they have been living in Ireland for years since before the child was born.

source wrote: »

She looked ethically different to her parents, who could not provide documentation to prove she is their daughter. The Gardai would have been looking at a kidnapping charge for the parents.

You do not leave a child with a couple you believe may have kidnapped that child. You remove the child and return the child when sufficient evidence has been provided. If the Gardai hadn't removed the child they would have been negligent given the details presented to them.

So any child who looks ethnically different to his parents should be required to carry documentation proving who they are at all times? Or is it just if they have blond hair? What about the other non blond children? Why were they left?
They did provide documentation but the passport picture did not look like the child. Maybe they couldn't find the birth cert? I know I have no idea where mine is.
This was a major screw up by AGS and the family will be getting a large payout in due course. It was inevitable that this would happen in some jurisdiction after the Greece incident but why did it have to be Ireland again? We constantly embarrass ourselves on the international stage.

mitosis

I presume they only dna match with the mother?

expectationlost

they been living here for atleast 7 years have they not

jamesdiver

Regardless, they are still Roma, and its their culture (which I've no issue with).

The gardai responded to a report which they rightly followed up. There was confusion at the house regarding a birth cert, or the date/hospital the child was born at. So what would you recommend the gardai do in this situation? The safe option was taken, the family and child will get over it.

I think the investigation should focus on who, and why the original information was given to the journalist, as there could underlying be malice in the local community for the family in which case they need support. The gardai and HSE did their jobs accordingly (apart from letting the media get hold of the story and blow it out of proportion).

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Specifically in this case they have been living in Ireland for years since before the child was born.


So any child who looks ethnically different to his parents should be required to carry documentation proving who they are at all times? Or is it just if they have blond hair? What about the other non blond children? Why were they left?
They did provide documentation but the passport picture did not look like the child. Maybe they couldn't find the birth cert? I know I have no idea where mine is.
This was a major screw up by AGS and the family will be getting a large payout in due course. It was inevitable that this would happen in some jurisdiction after the Greece incident but why did it have to be Ireland again? We constantly embarrass ourselves on the international stage.

source

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Specifically in this case they have been living in Ireland for years since before the child was born.


So any child who looks ethnically different to his parents should be required to carry documentation proving who they are at all times? Or is it just if they have blond hair? What about the other non blond children? Why were they left?
They did provide documentation but the passport picture did not look like the child. Maybe they couldn't find the birth cert? I know I have no idea where mine is.
This was a major screw up by AGS and the family will be getting a large payout in due course. It was inevitable that this would happen in some jurisdiction after the Greece incident but why did it have to be Ireland again? We constantly embarrass ourselves on the international stage.

That's not what I said, if an allegation is made the parents should be able to give basic answers to basic questions about the birth of the child, and provide a birth cert for the child.

The answers given to the Gardai didn't add up, this coupled with the child looking different to the parents led to a reasonable reaction of removing the child until Gardai could get to the bottom of the situation.

Which is exactly what happened.

If you don't know where your birth cert is then that's your problem, my wife's, my child's and my birth cert and passports are all in a file box with other important documents. Disorganisation is no excuse.

Pawwed Rig

jamesdiver wrote: »

Regardless, they are still Roma, and its their culture (which I've no issue with).

So because they are Roma they should be treated differently to Irish people? You are seriously making that point on a public forum?

jamesdiver wrote: »

The gardai responded to a report which they rightly followed up. There was confusion at the house regarding a birth cert, or the date/hospital the child was born at. So what would you recommend the gardai do in this situation? The safe option was taken, the family and child will get over it.

My wife is Asian. When we have kids do I need to be constantly waiting for AGS to crash through the door because my child looks ethnically different to me? Or what if I am at the shop? Should I bring the birth cert just in case and passport just in case? Will I be subject to DNA tests to prove the child is mine at the whim of AGS? Is this the type of country we want to live in?

AGS responded to a report that was wrong and they used excessive force to take a child away from it's family. They made an error of judgement which they are now going to pay the cost of (or should I say we) and rightfully so. There was no cause to genuinely believe that the child was not theirs other than the colour of it's hair otherwise why only take the blond child??

What do I recomend they do? I recomend they do nothing as they were completely wrong.
At least substantiate the allegation before removing a child from her family.

source wrote: »

The answers given to the Gardai didn't add up, this coupled with the child looking different to the parents led to a reasonable reaction of removing the child until Gardai could get to the bottom of the situation.

In what way did they not add up?
AFAIK the Coombe also made mistakes here.
Bear in mind this family did nothing wrong so have no obligation to engage with the Gardai.

source

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

So because they are Roma they should be treated differently to Irish people? You are seriously making that point on a public forum?



My wife is Asian. When we have kids do I need to be constantly waiting for AGS to crash through the door because my child looks ethnically different to me? Or what if I am at the shop? Should I bring the birth cert just in case and passport just in case? Will I be subject to DNA tests to prove the child is mine at the whim of AGS? Is this the type of country we want to live in?

AGS responded to a report that was wrong and they used excessive force to take a child away from it's family. They made an error of judgement which they are now going to pay the cost of (or should I say we) and rightfully so. There was no cause to genuinely believe that the child was not theirs other than the colour of it's hair otherwise why only take the blond child??

What do I recomend they do? I recomend they do nothing as they were completely wrong.
At least substantiate the allegation before removing a child from her family.


In what way did they not add up?
AFAIK the Coombe also made mistakes here.
Bear in mind this family did nothing wrong so have no obligation to engage with the Gardai.

Firstly your hyperbole is hurting my brain, secondly they did substantiate the claim, they carried out an investigation and found at the end that the complainant was wrong, child was returned.

Seeing as were being hyperbolic, should the Greek authorities return the girl there to the roma family until they've gotten to the bottom of the situation?

In what way did they not add up? The parents according to another poster couldn't answer the question which hospital their child was born in. They couldn't provide a birth cert, the child looked like she was a different ethnicity to the parents.

You can't just ignore a Garda investigation because you've done nothing wrong, if they have received a complain they are obliged to investigate, that is what they did.

jamesdiver

That's not what I said, I was asked why I thought the my were a flight risk. What are you insinuating? Judges regularly refuse bail for fl

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

So because they are Roma they should be treated differently to Irish people? You are seriously making that point on a public forum?



My wife is Asian. When we have kids do I need to be constantly waiting for AGS to crash through the door because my child looks ethnically different to me? Or what if I am at the shop? Should I bring the birth cert just in case and passport just in case? Will I be subject to DNA tests to prove the child is mine at the whim of AGS? Is this the type of country we want to live in?

AGS responded to a report that was wrong and they used excessive force to take a child away from it's family. They made an error of judgement which they are now going to pay the cost of (or should I say we) and rightfully so. There was no cause to genuinely believe that the child was not theirs other than the colour of it's hair otherwise why only take the blond child??

What do I recomend they do? I recomend they do nothing as they were completely wrong.
At least substantiate the allegation before removing a child from her family.


In what way did they not add up?
AFAIK the Coombe also made mistakes here.
Bear in mind this family did nothing wrong so have no obligation to engage with the Gardai.

Pawwed Rig

jamesdiver wrote: »

That's not what I said, I was asked why I thought the my were a flight risk. What are you insinuating? Judges regularly refuse bail for fl

So they are a flight risk because of their race? That is your point.:eek:

source wrote: »

Firstly your hyperbole is hurting my brain, secondly they did substantiate the claim, they carried out an investigation and found at the end that the complainant was wrong, child was returned.

Yes by infringing on the rights of a family based on racial profiling but hey it's ok because they are Roma and everyone knows what they're like and sure the child would probably be better off away from them anyway right?

The Greek authorities found a child who did not belong to the family. Different case, different country, different circumstance. The only commonality is Roma and blond. I have no idea what the Greek constitution/law says about the family and the family home or what evidence they had and it is completely irrelevant. Why not compare a similar case in Ireland?

source wrote: »

The parents according to another poster couldn't answer the question which hospital their child was born in.

That's your source? Another poster? They were reporting 2 days ago that the child was born in the Coombe.

source wrote: »

They couldn't provide a birth cert, the child looked like she was a different ethnicity to the parents.

So the Guards are now qualified to determine a persons ethnicity? They were wrong by the way. But sure it's grand as she looks different.

source wrote: »

You can't just ignore a Garda investigation because you've done nothing wrong, if they have received a complain they are obliged to investigate, that is what they did.

Investigate away. But they were still wrong. Wrong as in incorrect as in mistaken. So why traumatise the child for no reason? Leave her in situ unless there is an immediate threat (which there wasn't) and conclude the investigation in a humane manner. So again they were wrong.

I honestly cannot see how anyone can defend this other than because of a negative attitude towards the Roma or a Guard. Would never happen to an Irish family.

source

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

So they are a flight risk because of their race? That is your point.:eek:


Yes by infringing on the rights of a family based on racial profiling but hey it's ok because they are Roma and everyone knows what they're like and sure the child would probably be better off away from them anyway right?

The Greek authorities found a child who did not belong to the family. Different case, different country, different circumstance. The only commonality is Roma and blond. I have no idea what the Greek constitution/law says about the family and the family home or what evidence they had and it is completey irrelevant. Why not compare a similar case in Ireland?


That's your source? Another poster? They were reporting 2 days ago that the child was born in the Coombe.


So the Guards are now qualified to determine a persons ethnicity? They were wrong by the way. But sure it's grand as she looks different.


Investigate away. But they were still wrong. Wrong as in incorrect as in mistaken. So why traumatise the child for no reason? Leave her in situ unless there is an immediate threat (which there wasn't) and conclude the investigation in a humane manner. So again they were wrong.

I honestly cannot see how anyone can defend this other than because of a negative attitude towards the Roma or a Guard. Would never happen to an Irish family.

It was reported to the Gardai as bring the same scenario as what happened in Greece, so in the eyes of the investigating members it was the exact same situation, and had to be investigated as such. If it turned out to be the case would you be okay with the Gardai leaving a child with kidnappers?

Because in the eyes of the Gardai in the situation that's what they were potentially dealing with, and they had to treat it as such until they could prove otherwise.

vitani

I thought the parents had a birth cert but it was thought it might have been forged. Wasn't there a passport as well, but the photo was of the girl as a baby so didn't prove anything? I'm not sure what else the parents were supposed to produce.

My name is URL

If Gardai genuinely had a reasonable suspicion that the couple had committed a crime as serious as kidnapping, then how on earth was the decision to leave the other sibling with them, until the matter was investigated, reached? And if they were truly seen as being a flight risk, then why were neither of them arrested on suspicion of committing such a serious crime?

Turner

My name is URL wrote: »

If Gardai genuinely had a reasonable suspicion that the couple had committed a crime as serious as kidnapping, then how on earth was the decision to leave the other sibling with them, until the matter was investigated, reached? And if they were truly seen as being a flight risk, then why were neither of them arrested on suspicion of committing such a serious crime?

I hope you voiced these concerns to the Gardai while this whole investigation was taking place??

It was common knowledge that other siblings were left in the house, due to media interviews etc...

Did you inform the Gardai of your concerns? or are you only doing it now?

Why would you wait until now to voice these concerns?

My name is URL

Turner wrote: »

I hope you voiced these concerns to the Gardai while this whole investigation was taking place??

It was common knowledge that other siblings were left in the house, due to media interviews etc...

Did you inform the Gardai of your concerns? or are you only doing it now?

Why would you wait until now to voice these concerns?

I'm posting in a thread that was started at 10.46 this morning, and asking a pertinent question. Is there a problem with that?

Turner

If you only heard about this whole incident at 10:46 this morning then that's ok.

Its a pity that you only heard about the whole thing so late. You could have been able to offer so much advice so much sooner, rather than after the event.

Have you heard about the blonde haired blue eyed girl in greece?

My name is URL

Turner wrote: »

If you only heard about this whole incident at 10:46 this morning then that's ok.

Its a pity that you only heard about the whole thing so late. You could have been able to offer so much advice so much sooner, rather than after the event.

Have you heard about the blonde haired blue eyed girl in greece?

I'm not sure what you're getting at and don't really have the time nor interest in getting into whatever it is.

What are you on about 'offering advice'? =/

I asked two fairly straightforward questions, both of which took into account what others have said in this thread.

source wrote: »

If it turned out to be the case would you be okay with the Gardai leaving a child with kidnappers?

Because in the eyes of the Gardai in the situation that's what they were potentially dealing with, and they had to treat it as such until they could prove otherwise.

My name is URL wrote: »

then how on earth was the decision to leave the other sibling with them, until the matter was investigated, reached?

Is that an unfair question to ask? People keep saying that the Gardai had a reasonable suspicion that the couple had committed a very serious crime, serious enough to warrant taking their kid away. How so did it not warrant arresting the couple, or taking the other child also?

And what exactly does this have to do with the Greek case?

bravestar

My name is URL wrote: »

Is that an unfair question to ask? People keep saying that the Gardai had a reasonable suspicion that the couple had committed a very serious crime, serious enough to warrant taking their kid away. How so did it not warrant arresting the couple, or taking the other child also?

Unles you are part of the investigation or a family member directly concerned with this then to be honest, it's none of your business.

But if your really that concerned, why not skip all this and go have a chat to the Roma family? Oh wait, that might involve less of the arm chair preaching and actually doing something with your time.

My name is URL

bravestar wrote: »

Unles you are part of the investigation or a family member directly concerned with this then to be honest, it's none of your business.

But if your really that concerned, why not skip all this and go have a chat to the Roma family? Oh wait, that might involve less of the arm chair preaching and actually doing something with your time.

Insults.. if that's all this place has to offer for anyone daring to ask a question then it doesn't say much about the forum.

Not sure why I expected anything other than that anyway.

dharma200

bravestar wrote: »

Unles you are part of the investigation or a family member directly concerned with this then to be honest, it's none of your business.

But if your really that concerned, why not skip all this and go have a chat to the Roma family? Oh wait, that might involve less of the arm chair preaching and actually doing something with your time.

By your own admission it is none of your business either, unless you are directly concerned, if so you shouldn't be spouting on a public Internet forum.

I suspect telling people what and how they should be concerned with issues involving police cock ups and obvious racial profiling, is also arm chair preaching, which ofcourse should be encouraged in a public Internet forum.

Pawwed Rig

source wrote: »

Because in the eyes of the Gardai in the situation that's what they were potentially dealing with, and they had to treat it as such until they could prove otherwise.

Ah ok guilty until proven innocent. Gotcha

bravestar wrote: »

Unles you are part of the investigation or a family member directly concerned with this then to be honest, it's none of your business.

Of course it is our business. It is everyones business that AGS have decided that the way someone looks is grounds for removal from the family home. If my neighbour has a gripe with me can I expect the same treatment if he makes a malicious call? This is state sponsored racism and I don't think I am being hysterical by saying that. The responses on here are very concerning as I assume some are actually members of AGS.

angelfire9

I have dark hair my almost three year old is blonde (I have blonde siblings) but she looks nothing like me :cool:
She doesn't have a passport but I do know where her birth cert is
I also know her exact date and place of birth and this can be verified by a phone call to limerick maternity

For some reason the parents in this case allegedly gave the wrong DOB for the child which is probably why the maternity hospital couldn't find matching records

Flip the coin for a moment
Nosy neighbour rings Gardai "you know that Maria kid in Greece.. Well there's a Roma family next to me with a blonde haired blue eyed child that looks nothing like her parents"

Gardaí call to house

Garda: Can you verify that this child is your daughter"
Parents: She's ours what info do you want?
Garda: Do you have a copy if her birthcert?
Parents: No
Garda: Do you have her passport?
Parents : Yes, it's here but it is more than 5 years old it looks nothing like her
Garda: What is her date of birth
Parents : Not sure I think it's 5th of September 2010 (using artistic licence here)
Garda: Where was she born
Parents: The Coombe

Gardaí ring the Coombe but there is no record of a female child born to Roma parents on 05/09/2010

Garda: Ok, look I am not convinced the child is yours I will get a doctor in to take DNA samples and leave her here with ye til the results come back

Samples are taken and sent off
Gardaí go away, child is left with parents

2 days later DNA samples come back, child is not related to either parent
Gardaí return to house but family have absconded

The gardaí are criticised for letting a vulnerable child in the company of her kidnappers

Can you imagine the headlines??

bravestar

angelfire9 wrote: »

I have dark hair my almost three year old is blonde (I have blonde siblings) but she looks nothing like me :cool:
She doesn't have a passport but I do know where her birth cert is
I also know her exact date and place of birth and this can be verified by a phone call to limerick maternity

For some reason the parents in this case allegedly gave the wrong DOB for the child which is probably why the maternity hospital couldn't find matching records

Flip the coin for a moment
Nosy neighbour rings Gardai "you know that Maria kid in Greece.. Well there's a Roma family next to me with a blonde haired blue eyed child that looks nothing like her parents"

Gardaí call to house

Garda: Can you verify that this child is your daughter"
Parents: She's ours what info do you want?
Garda: Do you have a copy if her birthcert?
Parents: No
Garda: Do you have her passport?
Parents : Yes, it's here but it is more than 5 years old it looks nothing like her
Garda: What is her date of birth
Parents : Not sure I think it's 5th of September 2010 (using artistic licence here)
Garda: Where was she born
Parents: The Coombe

Gardaí ring the Coombe but there is no record of a female child born to Roma parents on 05/09/2010

Garda: Ok, look I am not convinced the child is yours I will get a doctor in to take DNA samples and leave her here with ye til the results come back

Samples are taken and sent off
Gardaí go away, child is left with parents

2 days later DNA samples come back, child is not related to either parent
Gardaí return to house but family have absconded

The gardaí are criticised for letting a vulnerable child in the company of her kidnappers

Can you imagine the headlines??

Nice to see some more people with a bit of common sense.

To all those other posts responding to me, I couldn't be bothered to quote you. You weren't there, have no idea what actually happened and come next week, will have something new to winge and moan about.

If you think you have all the answers, quit whining, go join AGS and walk the walk. Or does that sound too much like hard work for you.

source

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Ah ok guilty until proven innocent. Gotch.

You're impossible to deal with, the only thing you want to hear is for us all to turn around and say the Gardai were wrong and the family should sue and get millions.

You obviously have some form of chip on your shoulder where AGS is concerned as you won't listen to reason and twist everything others say into a negative.

I really couldn't be arsed discussing this with you any longer because dealing with your posting style is like taking to a juvenile brick wall.

Pawwed Rig

source wrote: »

You're impossible to deal with, the only thing you want to hear is for us all to turn around and say the Gardai were wrong and the family should sue and get millions.

The Gardai were wrong. It is all over the news. There will be a claim and rightly so.

My Dad was a Garda and I have nothing but respect for them in general as I have met loads down through the years. That doesn't mean they cannot have some major screw ups, this being one of them.

Sorry I don't agree with you but that is the nature of a discussion forum.

angelfire9

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

The Gardai were wrong. It is all over the news. There will be a claim and rightly so.

My Dad was a Garda and I have nothing but respect for them in general as I have met loads down through the years. That doesn't mean they cannot have some major screw ups, this being one of them.

Sorry I don't agree with you but that is the nature of a discussion forum.

What would you have done in the alternate scenario I posted then?
Please share your wisdom
Btw I am not a Garda

My name is URL

bravestar wrote: »

To all those other posts responding to me, I couldn't be bothered to quote you. You weren't there, have no idea what actually happened and come next week, will have something new to winge and moan about.

And yourself and others will have something new to aggressively defend, and circle the wagon over.. and shutdown any attempt from anyone to engage in a discussion.

Plus ça change :rolleyes:

jamesdiver

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

So they are a flight risk because of their race? That is your point.:eek:

They could be considered a flight risk based on their culture as nomads/gypsies/travelling communities. Just like lots of people in different situations, Irish or otherwise could be considered a flight risk. Luckily in this case, it was a case of safe not sorry, life goes on.

riffmongous

jamesdiver wrote: »

They could be considered a flight risk based on their culture as nomads/gypsies/travelling communities. Just like lots of people in different situations, Irish or otherwise could be considered a flight risk. Luckily in this case, it was a case of safe not sorry, life goes on.

How can you honestly base a flight risk on someone's 'culture'?? I would have thought it more sensible that anyone who had kidnapped a child and was being investigated by the guards would be a flight risk since once it's proved they kidnapped the child they will be going to prison?

So if you were in England and there was a brawl outside a pub and you were taken into custody for the night because Irish people have a reputation for fighting that would be fine?

bravestar

My name is URL wrote: »

And yourself and others will have something new to aggressively defend, and circle the wagon over.. and shutdown any attempt from anyone to engage in a discussion.

Plus ça change :rolleyes:

We defend it because it was the right thing to do, regardless of how many PC brigades it upsets.

My name is URL

bravestar wrote: »

We defend it because it was the right thing to do, regardless of how many PC brigades it upsets.

You're not the judge of that... no more than I or anyone else here is.

And it's not 'PC' to dislike seeing state forces apparently succumb to the the hysteria whipped up by mass media and a frenzied, somewhat bigoted public opinion.

bravestar

My name is URL wrote: »

... state forces apparently succumb to the the hysteria whipped up by mass media and a frenzied, somewhat bigoted public opinion.

Do you ever get tired of operating on assumptions based purely on your absolute lack of knowledge?

Pawwed Rig

bravestar wrote: »

Do you ever get tired of operating on assumptions based purely on your absolute lack of knowledge?

Well you have refused to engage in any debate but keep throwing out comments like 'You weren't there, so you don't know'.
Enlighten us then. What was the imminent risk to the blond child that did not exist for the other children?

You guys seem to be taking this very personally (with personal abuse being thrown around). Where there are problems in my profession I have no problem highlighting them. Here it seems to be a case of AGS are right no matter what they do!! I would ask those that if there are members of AGS here to try and be objective rather than defensive. Or at least engage in a debate rather than throw out abuse. I assume non members of AGS are welcome here? The charter seems to say so.

There are real people here that have been badly treated by the instrumennts of the State. Were the same thing to happen to me in another country I would have to seriously consider whether I wanted a future in that country where I would be singled out based on my race. This is not the type of country Irish people deserve.

angelfire9

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Well you have refused to engage in any debate but keep throwing out comments like 'You weren't there, so you don't know'.
Enlighten us then. What was the imminent risk to the blond child that did not exist for the other children?.

The risk was that the parents would abscond with a child which wasn't verifiably theirs
Presumably they had paperwork to go with the other kids?

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

You guys seem to be taking this very personally (with personal abuse being thrown around). Where there are problems in my profession I have no problem highlighting them. Here it seems to be a case of AGS are right no matter what they do!! I would ask those that if there are members of AGS here to try and be objective rather than defensive. Or at least engage in a debate rather than throw out abuse. I assume non members of AGS are welcome here? The charter seems to say so.

I am not a member of AGS and post here fairly regularly :cool:
i asked you already to engage in debate with regard to my initial post in this thread, you were asked what you would have done differently in the scenario i posted but for some reason you chose to decline to respond to that?

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

There are real people here that have been badly treated by the instrumennts of the State. Were the same thing to happen to me in another country I would have to seriously consider whether I wanted a future in that country where I would be singled out based on my race. This is not the type of country Irish people deserve.

What happened was not ideal, but better surely than letting a potential kidnapper abscond with their victim?
People get singled out for their race everywhere
Try travelling through Heathrow Airport (where they have a specific terminal to deal with Irish people) on your own with a child (as I did) and get pulled out off the queue to be questioned about the child's parentage (and this was with my eldest who was a miniature of yours truly at the time)
Methinks however the Roma family in question arrived into Ireland it wasn't through LHR :rolleyes:

bravestar

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Well you have refused to engage in any debate but keep throwing out comments like 'You weren't there, so you don't know'.
Enlighten us then. What was the imminent risk to the blond child that did not exist for the other children?

You guys seem to be taking this very personally (with personal abuse being thrown around). Where there are problems in my profession I have no problem highlighting them. Here it seems to be a case of AGS are right no matter what they do!! I would ask those that if there are members of AGS here to try and be objective rather than defensive. Or at least engage in a debate rather than throw out abuse. I assume non members of AGS are welcome here? The charter seems to say so.

There are real people here that have been badly treated by the instrumennts of the State. Were the same thing to happen to me in another country I would have to seriously consider whether I wanted a future in that country where I would be singled out based on my race. This is not the type of country Irish people deserve.

It's quite simple. I wasn't there either. I've been around long enough to know that if you weren't there, then you should keep your mouth shut. Hence, I will give the benefit of the doubt to AGS.

Angelfire9, gave you a scenario which you have refused to comment on, maybe you should try address that because quite frankly, I am of the opinion that in your eyes, no matter what AGS did, they would be wrong. The only exception to that being some unrealistic/unworkable scenario you create.

Pawwed Rig

bravestar wrote: »

Hence, I will give the benefit of the doubt to AGS.

I get that. AGS can do no wrong in your eyes. Whereas I am saying that they made an error in this case. I have also previously stated that I hold AGS in high regard but I am not about to claim they do not make mistakes.
I would suggest it would be a very scary country indeed if only those that were present are allowed to comment on a child being removed from her family. Also we would need to close down boards.ie:D

angelfire9 wrote: »

The risk was that the parents would abscond with a child which wasn't verifiably theirs
Presumably they had paperwork to go with the other kids?

But coincidently not the blond child? I don't buy that.

angelfire9 wrote: »

I am not a member of AGS and post here fairly regularly :cool:

Yes but as you can see opposing points of view to the groupthink are definitely not welcomed here as can be seen from the personal abuse that has been levelled at anyone who isn't 100% behind AGS on this issue.

i asked you already to engage in debate with regard to my initial post in this thread, you were asked what you would have done differently in the scenario i posted but for some reason you chose to decline to respond to that?

I had to goto bed because it was late:p
I don't know to be honest. You are asking me to comment on an area that I am not an expert in. A crude method would be to set up some kind of surveillance system where they could monitor the family for a couple of days and if they tried to run then call in the cavalry. I am sure a professional Police force could easily do that. Having said that there are bound to be better ways than my suggestion but you would need to ask a professional.
A cruder way is taking a frightened child away from her parents.

On a side note - Looks like the Greek case is coming to a close too in that the child may not have been kidnapped and may be Roma (although the legalities of the adoption are still in question).

My name is URL

My name is URL wrote: »

And it's not 'PC' to dislike seeing state forces apparently succumb to the the hysteria whipped up by mass media and a frenzied, somewhat bigoted public opinion.

bravestar wrote: »

Do you ever get tired of operating on assumptions based purely on your absolute lack of knowledge?

It also emerged yesterday that the controversy in Tallaght was sparked by an anonymous posting on Facebook. An unnamed female member of the public tipped off television channel TV3 about the presence of a blonde-haired, blue-eyed child at the house on Monday morning.

A researcher at the station passed on the Facebook message to an investigative TV3 reporter, who then contacted the gardai at the station in Tallaght.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/24/blonde-girl-roma-parents-returned-dna

Yeah.. definitely no sign of hysterics in any of that.

Here's the Facebook post in question - http://itonlyencouragesthem.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/roma.png

McCrack

The HSE and the Gardai have commenced internal investigations into the two matters. As I understand it, one child from Tallaght and another from Athlone were taken unlawfully from their families by the State and returned back to them.

It doesn't take a genius to figure that there were mistakes made by one or more State agencies.

I sincerely hope the families affected seek or have sought the appropriate legal advice.

angelfire9

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

You are asking me to comment on an area that I am not an expert in.

Don't you see the irony in that?
You are competent In your opinion to comment on what was done wrong
But not expert enough to suggest alternative scenarios

Pawwed Rig

angelfire9 wrote: »

Don't you see the irony in that?
You are competent In your opinion to comment on what was done wrong
But not expert enough to suggest alternative scenarios

I did suggest an alternative scenario which is what you asked for but qualified it by saying a relevant professional should be able to come up with a better idea.
So no I do not see any irony in that.
Why ask for an alternative scenario and then ignore the scenario I present completely just to get in yet another dig?
Also what do you think about the origin of the 'complaint' ie the facebook post. Is this the kind of tip off a modern Police force should rely on when removing a child from her family?

bravestar

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

I did suggest an alternative scenario which is what you asked for but qualified it by saying a relevant professional should be able to come up with a better idea.
So no I do not see any irony in that.
Why ask for an alternative scenario and then ignore the scenario I present completely just to get in yet another dig?
Also what do you think about the origin of the 'complaint' ie the facebook post. Is this the kind of tip off a modern Police force should rely on when removing a child from her family?

Your alternative scenario is unworkable. The Facebook tip off as you put it may have sparked a further investigation, which resulted in the child being removed and then returned once the investigaton had concluded. All investigations start with a suspicion, it doesn't mean guilty until proven innocent.

Zambia

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

I had to goto bed because it was late:p
I don't know to be honest. You are asking me to comment on an area that I am not an expert in. A crude method would be to set up some kind of surveillance system where they could monitor the family for a couple of days and if they tried to run then call in the cavalry. I am sure a professional Police force could easily do that. Having said that there are bound to be better ways than my suggestion but you would need to ask a professional.
A cruder way is taking a frightened child away from her parents.

You seem to think there was a right way to do this. In the end the members were looking for the least wrong way to do it.

Most professional police forces would do something similar.

msg11

McCrack wrote: »

As I understand it, one child from Tallaght and another from Athlone were taken unlawfully from their families by the State and returned back to them.

They where removed lawfully. The Garda used section 12 of the Child Care Act 1991.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1991/en/act/pub/0017/print.html#sec12