Do RTE Really need the ministers permission to change a stations schedule ?

July Rain

I have seen on a few threads here that RTE say that they can't change RTE 2's daytime schedule without the ministers permission. I thought that the schedule of all RTE TV and Radio stations was fully a matter for the RTE board and nothing to do with the minister ???

spank_inferno

Only 2000+ people work there..... not nearly enough to be able to make such a large decision as that!

glimmerman123

July Rain wrote: »

I have seen on a few threads here that RTE say that they can't change RTE 2's daytime schedule without the ministers permission. I thought that the schedule of all RTE TV and Radio stations was fully a matter for the RTE board and nothing to do with the minister ???

I'm sure if RTE needed permission to change the schedule of RTE 2 they would have applied for it. Maybe they don't have the cash to buy in new shows.

July Rain

glimmerman123 wrote: »

I'm sure if RTE needed permission to change the schedule of RTE 2 they would have applied for it. Maybe they don't have the cash to buy in new shows.

That is was is most likely.

The Cush

glimmerman123 wrote: »

I'm sure if RTE needed permission to change the schedule of RTE 2 they would have applied for it.

They have

brick man wrote: »

I emailed RTE about the RTE 2 daytime schedule and what came back was Quote ;

Due to certain legislative and regulatory requirements , RTE must undergo a regulatory process if it wishes to make a large change to a channels output. This process the email continues has been ongoing for quite sometime and an outcome is expected very soon. and in brackets ;

(Ministers decision on proposed new rte channels and services Feb 2011 & Broadcasting act 2009)

July Rain wrote: »

I have seen on a few threads here that RTE say that they can't change RTE 2's daytime schedule without the ministers permission. I thought that the schedule of all RTE TV and Radio stations was fully a matter for the RTE board and nothing to do with the minister ???

Minister's Decision - http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/NR/rdonlyres/53109763-FB78-4318-A034-47D2021C6D39/0/MinistersDecision.pdf

Section 103 of the Broadcasting Act 2009 provides the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources with responsibility to consider requests by RTÉ or TG4 for new channels and services and to make a determination on whether to consent to these channels or services.

afatbollix

Dont they have to put out a certain amount of kids TV shows? I think thats why they cant change RTE2.

July Rain

afatbollix wrote: »

Dont they have to put out a certain amount of kids TV shows? I think thats why they cant change RTE2.

But RTE Junior now has It's own channel available to all.

L1011

July Rain wrote: »

But RTE Junior now has It's own channel available to all.

Not available on analogue cable, which is probably still enough % to throw a spanner in the works.

It took a number of years for Ofcom to accept that a sufficient amount of people had access to BBC3/BBC4 to allow proper changes to BBC1/2; can't see the decision here being any quicker.

watty

Pay TV shouldn't count.

Elmo

Any change made to an RTÉ channel needs permission from the minister. The minister could decide that the change is just part of the digital TV landscape that when an Under 6 channel is given the go ahead that such programming would move over to that dedicated channel. Or the minister in his complete stupidity could go off and ask that the BAI carry out a review and report back to him.

icdg

I think its RTÉ taking an overly careful view of the requirements in the Broadcasting Act 2009 for new services, the view might be that such a substantial change in RTÉ Two's remit would constitute a new service. As I said before its often forgotten that children's programmes aired on what was then RTÉ1 before 1988 and even up until 1997 they only ran on weekdays from 2:30pm-6:00pm on weekdays (as well as a then separate Saturday morning strand) - the all day children's programming is a relatively recent thing and RTÉ didn't seek (or need to seek) Ministerial permission to do either of these things as they were essentially self-regulated prior to the 2009 Act's enactment.

Then again, with TV3 shouting "foul" at anything and everything RTÉ does, it probably doesn't help to be careful. I get the impression TV3 would not be happy with anything other than the complete and total shutting down of RTÉ Television however. I also think they don't have the right to be critical of anything RTÉ do in the children's TV area given that they don't show any children's programmes and haven't done so in years.

Elmo

icdg wrote: »

I think its RTÉ taking an overly careful view of the requirements in the Broadcasting Act 2009 for new services, the view might be that such a substantial change in RTÉ Two's remit would constitute a new service. As I said before its often forgotten that children's programmes aired on what was then RTÉ1 before 1988 and even up until 1997 they only ran on weekdays from 2:30pm-6:00pm on weekdays (as well as a then separate Saturday morning strand) - the all day children's programming is a relatively recent thing and RTÉ didn't seek (or need to seek) Ministerial permission to do either of these things as they were essentially self-regulated prior to the 2009 Act's enactment.

This all happened before the current Act and I did read that the RTÉ Authority did take a careful look at RTÉ 2's move to Network 2 and in the Mid-1990s the RTÉ Authority looked carefully at the removal of advertising during programming aimed at the Under 6s. The BAI are now the authority and really should be the independent people to review major changes to RTÉ schedules, the minister should only investigate new Services not changes to services. E.g. changes to Schedules and HD transmissions should be taken care off by the BAI alone.

I thought Saturday Morning TV moved to Network TWO a few years before it changed to N2 with the introduction of T/X?

RTÉ Two is a mixed genre channel IMO so the change is minimal.

MYOB wrote: »

Not available on analogue cable, which is probably still enough % to throw a spanner in the works.

It took a number of years for Ofcom to accept that a sufficient amount of people had access to BBC3/BBC4 to allow proper changes to BBC1/2; can't see the decision here being any quicker.

UPC should replace Nick with RTÉjr on Analogue cable few analogue cable users would notice the change.

icdg

Elmo wrote: »

. The BAI are now the authority and really should be the independent people to review major changes to RTÉ schedules, the minister should only investigate new Services not changes to services. E.g. changes to Schedules and HD transmissions should be taken care off by the BAI alone.

Agreed, the fact that there needs to be political involvement in a decision of this nature is laughable. I know there is currently a movement against "quangos" but people are forgetting that these bodies were established for a reason - to remove the political element from decisions of this nature.

I thought Saturday Morning TV moved to Network TWO a few years before it changed to N2 with the introduction of T/X?

It did. IIRC it moved from RTE1 to Network 2 in 1988 when RTÉ2 was (first) rebranded. But Saturday morning and the afternoon programmes were two different strands produced by different teams - the Saturday morning shows (Pajo's Junkbox and Scratch Saturday are the main ones that come to mind) had quite a different feel to the Den, which ran on weekday afternoons.

icdg

UPC should replace Nick with RTÉjr on Analogue cable few analogue cable users would notice the change.

Aimed at two completely different markets, RTÉjr is aimed at preschoolers whereas Nickelodeon is aimed at preteens and young teenagers.

Elmo

icdg wrote: »

Aimed at two completely different markets, RTÉjr is aimed at preschoolers whereas Nickelodeon is aimed at preteens and young teenagers.

The audience that will notice the change aren't subscribers to UPC Analogue. Also later on in the afternoon RTÉjr IMO isn't for pre-schoolers with Scooby Doo, Tazmania, Animanics etc.

It would also get people to switch to Digital if UPC replace some of its analogue channels.

RTÉ ONE +1 taking over from Comedy Central
RTÉjr from Nick
RTÉ News Now from Sky News
Oireachtas TV from Discovery

watty

They will sooner than later close UPC Analogue to have more spectrum for Broadband. The Analogue channels on cable are poor quality and very very wasteful of spectrum as Cable runs at often FOUR times the datarate on Digital (TV or Broadband) that TV or FWALA via aerials can use.

L1011

Elmo wrote: »

It would also get people to switch to Digital if UPC replace some of its analogue channels.

People who are still on analogue would mostly go FTA + Saorview.

Elmo

MYOB wrote: »

People who are still on analogue would mostly go FTA + Saorview.

That's fine they'd lose Nick, MTV and Discovery in that case. UPC could keep them many of them don't know about FTA TV if they still have analogue UPC.

Macy0161

I thought it was a condition of RTEjr, so would require ministerial approval to change the RTE2 schedule removing Childrens programming? TV3 whinged that the removal of childrens programming would mean that RTE2 could get advertising and Carey kowtowed to them post election on that, and RTE Plus, and no advertising (and so no new/ seperate programming) on News Now. One of the reasons I'm delighted to see UTV come in, and refuse to drawn into such bs.

lertsnim

Elmo wrote: »

That's fine they'd lose Nick, MTV and Discovery in that case. UPC could keep them many of them don't know about FTA TV if they still have analogue UPC.

If those channels were even half as good as they were in the 90s they'd be losing something.

Parents using children as the excuse for keeping pay TV make me laugh. Who is the parent exactly?

Elmo

http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/debateswebpack.nsf/takes/dail2013111900067?opendocument#WRP02250

408. Deputy Thomas P. Broughan asked the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources Information when a decision will be made by RTÉ to move all children’s programming to RTEjr from RTÉ Two. [49393/13]

Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources (Deputy Pat Rabbitte): Section 103 of the Broadcasting Act 2009 provides that a corporation requires my consent for new services and variations in channels. I have received a submission from RTÉ in respect of the proposal to which the Deputy refers and it is currently being examined by my Department in order to consider its public value. My Department has also consulted with the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland in respect of the sectoral impact of this proposal. I expect to be in a position to make a decision in the matter shortly.

The minister will make a decision soon!

July Rain

I don't understand how changing 6-7 hours(less at weekends) of the schedule of the channel would be considered such a major change that would require reports and ministers permission? Sure RTE Junior and den tots before it, used to be substantially reduced during the summer holidays (as recently as summer 2012) and replaced with teenage programs or sports coverage.

Elmo

July Rain wrote: »

I don't understand how changing 6-7 hours(less at weekends) of the schedule of the channel would be considered such a major change that would require reports and ministers permission? Sure RTE Junior and den tots before it, used to be substantially reduced during the summer holidays (as recently as summer 2012) and replaced with teenage programs or sports coverage.

There unfortunately is to get out of jail cards for the pencil pushers

1. It only relates to changes after 2009
2. If the change is only for 30days then it doesn't count

Not that the pencil pushers would notice.

The problem with this like everything with DTT is that it takes too long. There are too many reports written and little action taken.

July Rain

What programs do you think they should broadcast on RTE two instead of RTE Jr when they get the ministers permission ? I think they should show American daytime soaps like The Bold and the Beautiful, Days of our lives , General Hospital.

Elmo

July Rain wrote: »

What programs do you think they should broadcast on RTE two instead of RTE Jr when they get the ministers permission ? I think they should show American daytime soaps like The Bold and the Beautiful, Days of our lives , General Hospital.

Are they still running? 3e should take them

I think it should become a Family/TRTÉ lead daytime line up they are supposed to be PBS

7AM Simple morning music show like they have on the Radio, with news.
9AM TRTÉ
12:00 TWO TUBE (Home and Away etc)
14:00 TRTÉ
18:00 RTÉ TWO proper

Macy0161

July Rain wrote: »

What programs do you think they should broadcast on RTE two instead of RTE Jr when they get the ministers permission ? I think they should show American daytime soaps like The Bold and the Beautiful, Days of our lives , General Hospital.

Its not the programming thats the issue, its the advertising. No advertising on the rtejr content, so tv3 would going crying to the bai/ govt/ vested interest radio stations moaning about how unfair it is. Experience so far is that the bai would feckin take it on board too.

lertsnim

July Rain wrote: »

What programs do you think they should broadcast on RTE two instead of RTE Jr when they get the ministers permission ? I think they should show American daytime soaps like The Bold and the Beautiful, Days of our lives , General Hospital.

Masterchef and lots of it. It's all I seem to watch these days

Macy0161 wrote: »

Its not the programming thats the issue, its the advertising. No advertising on the rtejr content, so tv3 would going crying to the bai/ govt/ vested interest radio stations moaning about how unfair it is. Experience so far is that the bai would feckin take it on board too.

I am glad that they don't have advertising during those programmes. No need for it.

July Rain

Elmo wrote: »

Are they still running? 3e should take them

I think it should become a Family/TRTÉ lead daytime line up they are supposed to be PBS

7AM Simple morning music show like they have on the Radio, with news.
9AM TRTÉ
12:00 TWO TUBE (Home and Away etc)
14:00 TRTÉ
18:00 RTÉ TWO proper

It would be a waste of time showing TRTE from 9-12, when the tweens and teens are at school.

Elmo

What does shortly mean exactly?

The Cush

In the Sunday Times today - "Rabbitte will block RTE2 plan to ditch children's TV"

Basically the article says a report on the transfer of children's programming to RTÉjr was ordered after TV3 objected and this was submitted by the BAI last July. TV3's problem with it, it would allow RTÉ to sell more advertising.

RTÉ say that would only result in approx. €200,000 p.a. ad sales but others have said this could be up to €500,000 p.a. in a rising economy.

icdg

Yeah its unfortunate particularly with RTÉJr now on all the major platforms. The only point in it is not to sell advertising during the day. RTÉ's next move should be to give over as much of RTÉjr's on RTÉ Two's airtime as possible to TRTÉ - certainly during periods when its target audience isn't in school.

Elmo

Absolutely daft.

watty

Why is a totally inept ...

Oh never mind.

Elmo

watty wrote: »

Why is a totally inept ...

Oh never mind.

It took them a year to decide.

lertsnim

Oh how I wish TV3 and all belonging to it would be washed away with one of the floods.

Absolutely daft decision <MOD EDIT>

icdg

Play the ball not the man please

Elmo

icdg wrote: »

Play the ball not the man please

eamon Ryan got some criticism on this!!!

lertsnim

Can't even have an opinion on the minister around here.

Elmo

lertsnim wrote: »

Can't even have an opinion on the minister around here.

RabbitteGate like Cow&Gate but more slurry is involved. <<<<<<<JOKE!

Macy0161

Assuming he is just going to endorse the BAI decision, isn't that where the problem really lies? The sooner UTV are in the market, and so dilute the influence of TV3 the better.

Elmo

Macy0161 wrote: »

Assuming he is just going to endorse the BAI decision, isn't that where the problem really lies? The sooner UTV are in the market, and so dilute the influence of TV3 the better.

AFAIK and I could be wrong the Minister does not have to look for advice from the BAI.

RTÉ or TG4 propose a major change to their schedule or a new service

The Minister can read the proposal and decide if he considers them to be merited or not, he has a further option of asking the BAI to carry out two reports A Strategic Impact Analysis (SIA) and a Public Value Test (PVT). He can also as his Department to carry out a Public Consultation, however he did not request this. Though I do think the Department carried out some kind of public review. Once these reports are provided to the Minister he now can make a decision on the matter.

According to the Minister the BAI are independent from him and according to the BAI the Minister is independent from them.

This makes it very politically IMO. Even with the advise of the BAI and the Department the Minister can decide to do nothing.

If they want to have this kind of system the Minister needs to make a decision. In fairness to Carey he did make a decision, you might not agree with his final decision but he told RTÉ that they could do something, but not what they were proposing. If the report is correct Minister Rabbitte is basically going to Say No to the move, rather then ask for something that might be a suitable replacement.

Such proposals should be sent to the Dail Committee on Communications, they should report back to the minister on the options open to the department. (This is still very political).

icdg

Elmo you are on your last warning and will be getting a ban next time. Joke or no joke.

To clarify the issue, its okay to make legitimate criticism of a decision, indeed in this particular case I'm critical myself. When it moves to personal criticism or name calling of a person then it moves into what is not allowed.

Plus there is NO on-thread correspondence on moderation decisions and I'm making an exception this time since it seems to be being ignored. Next person who does it gets a ban without a warning.

Now back on topic please.

SPDUB

Seems like RTE should just close down RTEjr then .

It is just a drain on resources running it as a separate service when they are cutting even the smallest thing such as RTE Guides to RTE pensioners

dr Golden

RTE should just go ahead and change the rte 2 daytime schedule anyway. What can rabbitte do ? Fine them ? Close them down ? No legislation says rte 2 must show ad free kids shows from 7am/3pm

Elmo

dr Golden wrote: »

RTE should just go ahead and change the rte 2 daytime schedule anyway. What can rabbitte do ? Fine them ? Close them down ? No legislation says rte 2 must show ad free kids shows from 7am/3pm

It is a major change to the schedule. I asked the BAI why they considered it a major change when neither of its predecessors IRTC and BCI ever took notice of the major changes in the channels schedule with the introduction of Children's programming in 1988, and then the early daytime change with the removal of US programmes like McGyver in 1998 and that RTÉ TWO isn't a children's channel but rather a general entertainment channel, and could change its schedule in line with general entertainment. They said that was retrospective.

It is strange the 2fm changes weren't put to the minister.

dr Golden

Although its a complete waste of space broadcasting RTE JR on RTE 2 when it has its own channel, I don't think rte would use the space wisely if they got it back, Look at RTE 1's daytime line up, nothing but endless reruns of Irish cookery shows.

Elmo

dr Golden wrote: »

Although its a complete waste of space broadcasting RTE JR on RTE 2 when it has its own channel, I don't think rte would use the space wisely if they got it back, Look at RTE 1's daytime line up, nothing but endless reruns of Irish cookery shows.

Same can be said for most Daytime TV.

lertsnim

dr Golden wrote: »

Although its a complete waste of space broadcasting RTE JR on RTE 2 when it has its own channel, I don't think rte would use the space wisely if they got it back, Look at RTE 1's daytime line up, nothing but endless reruns of Irish cookery shows.

Bit of an exaggeration there. Schedules are showing one hour of cooking related programming. Could be worse. They could be showing cash in the attic type rubbish that's somehow popular in the UK.

iseegirls

dr Golden wrote: »

Although its a complete waste of space broadcasting RTE JR on RTE 2 when it has its own channel, I don't think rte would use the space wisely if they got it back, Look at RTE 1's daytime line up, nothing but endless reruns of Irish cookery shows.

It's hard for any channel to produce a daytime line-up which isn't devoid of repeats.

Following up on Cash in The Attic and Bargain Hunt in the UK - they normally appear in the Top 25 programmes watched every day during the weekdays. An amazing stat for 2 programmes that begin around midday.

dr Golden

Btw does anybody know what the ratings for RTE Jr and TRTE are like compared to the den a decade ago ?

Elmo

dr Golden wrote: »

Btw does anybody know what the ratings for RTE Jr and TRTE are like compared to the den a decade ago ?

Afaik they don't do to bad but with so many children's channels the market is very fragmented.