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SIAC in financial trouble

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    #32
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Graham wrote: »
    In fairness, I'd imagine updating the website is fairly low on the list of priorities at the moment.

    it was updated to remove them - that's my point...


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    #33
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    glasso wrote: »
    it was updated to remove them - that's my point...

    Call IT guy, remove that page it's out of date. No thinking/planning/discussion just job done. That's my point.

    There may be things about the cause of the SIAC examinership to get outraged about. In my opinion this isn't one of them.


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    #34
    Peterdalkey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭Peterdalkey


    They have no obligation, whatsoever, to state their directors on a website. It is no issue in finding a list of current directors, just buy the CRO listing. These guys are obviously under severe pressure at this point, the last thing they need is contact or faffing about from randomers.
    They are real people, with real families and real worries for their futures and their ability to provide for their families into the future. Who is at any loss that their details have been removed, only the nosey hurlers on the ditch!


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    #35
    Gryire
    Registered Users Posts: 250 ✭✭Gryire


    http://www.irishtimes.com/business/sectors/transport-and-tourism/state-paid-siac-millions-ahead-of-examinership-1.1572578

    Where is all the money going!!!!!


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    #36
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Where do you think it's going, you are aware the company is still trading aren't you?

    My guess would be to continue to pay suppliers/contractors/staff for the existing ongoing projects with the oversight of the examiner.


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    #37
    Gryire
    Registered Users Posts: 250 ✭✭Gryire


    Graham wrote: »
    Where do you think it's going, you are aware the company is still trading aren't you?

    My guess would be to continue to pay suppliers/contractors/staff for the existing ongoing projects with the oversight of the examiner.

    From what I have heard, they are not paying any of the above only wages. Heard they owe some ex-staff redundancy money for over a year!


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    #38
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Gryire wrote: »
    From what I have heard, they are not paying any of the above only wages. Heard they owe some ex-staff redundancy money for over a year!

    They will continue to pay existing staff while in examinership and they will continue to pay suppliers/contractors for whatever is necessary to continue their existing workload. Without this the company would stop and the examinership process would be pointless.

    Sadly anyone thats owed money for work completed is unlikely to see much (if anything) for a while.

    Where do you think the money is going?


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    #39
    Gryire
    Registered Users Posts: 250 ✭✭Gryire


    Graham wrote: »
    They will continue to pay existing staff while in examinership and they will continue to pay suppliers/contractors for whatever is necessary to continue their existing workload. Without this the company would stop and the examinership process would be pointless.

    Sadly anyone thats owed money for work completed is unlikely to see much (if anything) for a while.

    Where do you think the money is going?

    Difficult to say. From what I know, it was a well run company. But am surprised with the amount of money it owes creditors etc when they posted profits every year through the recession (€5million in 2012). Most of their clients are government bodies and it seems these have paid the monies owed. Basically, if you make profits every year and collect the money you are owed then how can you not pay your suppliers and contractors!


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    #40
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    I'd imagine it's quite easy when a contract worth tens/hundreds of millions of Euro goes bad. The previous years €5million profit isn't going to stretch very far.


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    #41
    Peterdalkey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭Peterdalkey


    Gryire wrote: »
    Difficult to say. From what I know, it was a well run company. But am surprised with the amount of money it owes creditors etc when they posted profits every year through the recession (€5million in 2012). Most of their clients are government bodies and it seems these have paid the monies owed. Basically, if you make profits every year and collect the money you are owed then how can you not pay your suppliers and contractors!

    If you get stiffed for say €20 million in Poland, that would pretty much do it!!


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    #42
    Gryire
    Registered Users Posts: 250 ✭✭Gryire


    Graham wrote: »
    I'd imagine it's quite easy when a contract worth tens/hundreds of millions of Euro goes bad. The previous years €5million profit isn't going to stretch very far.

    They pulled out of Poland in November 2012 and still declared a profit of €5 Million.


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    #43
    Gryire
    Registered Users Posts: 250 ✭✭Gryire


    Peterdalkey wrote: »
    If you get stiffed for say €20 million in Poland, that would pretty much do it!!

    If they got stifffed for €20 Million how did they make a profit of €5 Million in 2012.


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    #44
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Gryire wrote: »
    If they got stifffed for €20 Million how did they make a profit of €5 Million in 2012.

    Without reviewing their accounts, my guess would be the loss was only realised on the books this year.


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    #45
    Peterdalkey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭Peterdalkey


    Gryire wrote: »
    If they got stifffed for €20 Million how did they make a profit of €5 Million in 2012.


    At this stage it is unknown how much they will ultimately be able to recover from Poland. The issue is not profits made which are only paper figures, it is about cashflow. You can trade indefinitely with no profits after depreciation etc, but if you have no cash...game over!


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    #46
    Gryire
    Registered Users Posts: 250 ✭✭Gryire


    Graham wrote: »
    Without reviewing their accounts, my guess would be the loss was only realised on the books this year.

    That does not make since. SIAC surely knew what the story in Poland was prior to declaring any profits. Maybe they are owed money from Poland, but I have not seen this mentioned on any media so far.


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    #47
    Peterdalkey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭Peterdalkey


    From the Irish Times


    On Wednesday, the Siac group secured interim examinership in the High Court. Directors said their difficulties stemmed from the Irish downturn and outstanding payments of about €113 million from its Polish activities.


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    #48
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Gryire wrote: »
    That does not make since. SIAC surely knew what the story in Poland was prior to declaring any profits. Maybe they are owed money from Poland, but I have not seen this mentioned on any media so far.

    The company is seeking damages of €22million and is making a complaint to the European commission as a result of it's Polish operation. http://www.irishtimes.com/business/sectors/transport-and-tourism/siac-faces-examinership-after-polish-losses-1.1568640


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    #49
    Gryire
    Registered Users Posts: 250 ✭✭Gryire


    Peterdalkey wrote: »
    From the Irish Times


    On Wednesday, the Siac group secured interim examinership in the High Court. Directors said their difficulties stemmed from the Irish downturn and outstanding payments of about €113 million from its Polish activities.

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/business/siac-secures-protection-of-court-247332.html

    Since 2008, the turnover of SIAC Construction Ltd (SCL) has fallen from €265m to €113m, the directors said in their petition. SCL also has trade creditors of €26.1m, additional current liabilities of €4.5m and other sums totalling €24.7m due in contract and rectification provision and intercompany liabilities. Polish creditors also had outstanding claims of some €7.4m.

    The directors said SCL is under significant pressure from its trade creditors and any petition for its winding up would have a “catastrophic domino effect” on the group as a whole.


    SIAC has, with others, taken legal action in Poland arising from involvement in road contracts and said the value of its share of those claims was about €113m.

    They are making a claim of €113m. That is alot different to being owed €113m.

    Also, there are 9 parts of the group involved, most of whom were not in Poland!

    The affected companies are SIAC Construction Ltd; SIAC Holdings Ltd; SIAC Holdings (Ireland) Ltd; SIAC Bituminous Products Ltd; SIAC Butlers Steel Ltd; Lilymount Ltd; SIAC (Clondalkin) Ltd; SIAC Baldonnell Ltd and SIAC Property Retailers Ltd.


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    #50
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    The company is currently seeking damages of €22million.

    As an aside, Sisk currently have something like €90million still owing to them from their Polish operations. This doesn't appear to be a problem that's unique to SIAC.


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    #51
    Peterdalkey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭Peterdalkey


    They are making a claim of €113m. That is alot different to being owed €113m. ???
    Bottom line is that they have run out of cash......... thus insolvent! Insolvency and profitability are not the same thing, it is quite possible to be profitable but insolvent. It is also illegal to trade while insolvent but not so while merely unprofitable.


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    #52
    Crimson King
    Registered Users Posts: 1,181 ✭✭✭Crimson King


    Sad to hear.

    I sub-contracted in their IT Dept a few years back and I found them a great bunch to work for. Some sound people in there and I wish them all the best. To be fair, they were under serious financial constraints even back then once the civil work started to dry up for them in the domestic market, there was always going to be financial pressures. I hope the business survives and peoples jobs/ pensions are not affected.


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    #53
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Peterdalkey wrote: »
    They are making a claim of €113m. That is alot different to being owed €113m. ???
    Bottom line is that they have run out of cash......... thus insolvent! Insolvency and profitability are not the same thing, it is quite possible to be profitable but insolvent. It is also illegal to trade while insolvent but not so while merely unprofitable.

    Thanks Peter, I too had missed that:

    On Wednesday, the Siac group secured interim examinership in the High Court. Directors said their difficulties stemmed from the Irish downturn and outstanding payments of about €113 million from its Polish activities.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/business/sectors/commercial-property/road-works-in-poland-lead-to-dead-end-for-siac-and-sisk-1.1572124


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    #54
    Gryire
    Registered Users Posts: 250 ✭✭Gryire


    Graham wrote: »
    Thanks Peter, I too had missed that:

    On Wednesday, the Siac group secured interim examinership in the High Court. Directors said their difficulties stemmed from the Irish downturn and outstanding payments of about €113 million from its Polish activities.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/business/sectors/commercial-property/road-works-in-poland-lead-to-dead-end-for-siac-and-sisk-1.1572124

    On Thursdays Exmainer it was a claim and on Friday's Times it is money owed!

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/business/siac-secures-protection-of-court-247332.html


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    #55
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Gryire wrote: »
    On Thursdays Exmainer it was a claim and on Friday's Times it is money owed!

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/business/siac-secures-protection-of-court-247332.html

    All the more reason to exercise restraint before rushing to judgement and brandishing the pitchforks.


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    #56
    Gryire
    Registered Users Posts: 250 ✭✭Gryire


    Graham wrote: »
    All the more reason to exercise restraint before rushing to judgement and brandishing the pitchforks.

    There is no judgement or pitch forks just some legitimate queries.

    Poland is definitely a big problem for the construction arm, but what about the other parts of the company that are also included.


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    #57
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    More information is trickling out this morning from the KPMG report. Some of the main points:

    shareholders in SIAC sold their stake in the M4/M6 toll road in Ireland for €17m and rather than pocketing the money, ploughed it back into keeping the SIAC business going in 2012 and 2013.

    KPMG's report also reveals how badly SIAC was burned by Poland, where it was part of a consortium which won a €365m deal to build a new road known as A4 from the Polish Roads Authority. It shows how SIAC was faced with huge difficulties in dealing with its Polish partner PBG even before it went bust in June 2012.

    SIAC was due to be repaid €21m from a bond designed to protect them from such difficulties, but the Irish company was unable to collect this.

    SIAC was involved in five different claims totalling €210m in Poland ranging from €87m in contractual claims to €42m in a termination penalty claim. "It is anticipated that [SIAC's] share of the total claims to be pursued will be well in excess of €100m," KPMG said, but warned it was not "likely", any of these claims would be "resolved in the short term".
    http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/creditors-would-face-126m-hit-by-liquidating-siac-29702812.html

    From what has come out so far, there's no evidence of anything underhand on the part of SIAC


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    #58
    Gryire
    Registered Users Posts: 250 ✭✭Gryire


    Graham wrote: »
    More information is trickling out this morning from the KPMG report. Some of the main points:

    shareholders in SIAC sold their stake in the M4/M6 toll road in Ireland for €17m and rather than pocketing the money, ploughed it back into keeping the SIAC business going in 2012 and 2013.

    KPMG's report also reveals how badly SIAC was burned by Poland, where it was part of a consortium which won a €365m deal to build a new road known as A4 from the Polish Roads Authority. It shows how SIAC was faced with huge difficulties in dealing with its Polish partner PBG even before it went bust in June 2012.

    SIAC was due to be repaid €21m from a bond designed to protect them from such difficulties, but the Irish company was unable to collect this.

    SIAC was involved in five different claims totalling €210m in Poland ranging from €87m in contractual claims to €42m in a termination penalty claim. "It is anticipated that [SIAC's] share of the total claims to be pursued will be well in excess of €100m," KPMG said, but warned it was not "likely", any of these claims would be "resolved in the short term".
    http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/creditors-would-face-126m-hit-by-liquidating-siac-29702812.html

    From what has come out so far, there's no evidence of anything underhand on the part of SIAC

    Based on this it could prove very difficult to get out of the hole they are in. How are they likely to move forward.


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    #59
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Gryire wrote: »
    Based on this it could prove very difficult to get out of the hole they are in.

    Do you have anything upon which you've based that comment?

    KPMG believe SIAC has a reasonable prospect of survival if it is allowed to restructure.

    A note in KPMG's report states that: "Existing shareholders are also willing to contribute further funds should a scheme of arrangement be successful.

    If the company was liquidated it would wipe out creditors to the tune of €126million compared to its current net asset position of €37million.


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    #60
    Gryire
    Registered Users Posts: 250 ✭✭Gryire


    Graham wrote: »
    Do you have anything upon which you've based that comment?

    KPMG believe SIAC has a reasonable prospect of survival if it is allowed to restructure.

    A note in KPMG's report states that: "Existing shareholders are also willing to contribute further funds should a scheme of arrangement be successful.

    If the company was liquidated it would wipe out creditors to the tune of €126million compared to its current net asset position of €37million.

    How do you think they can survive with assets of €35m and creditors of €100. Do you think creditors are going to settle for some small percentage. What restructuring can they do if they have already shut down non profitmaking arms of the group.


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    #61
    The J Stands for Jay
    Registered Users Posts: 5,689 ✭✭✭The J Stands for Jay


    Gryire wrote: »
    I think it is an asset that would be lumped with all other assets in the event of liquidation.

    Pensions are not a company asset. They are held.under trust and would not be available to creditors in a liquidation.


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