Child removed from Roma gypsies-This time in DUBLIN *Mod Warning Post #1*

listermint

Nodin wrote: »

Two hours is suddenly sufficient to take away a child when there's been court battles for custody where people have sought to take a child from a junkie that have taken years? Yes, that's fucking hysterical overreaction.

Well they couldnt provide a birth cert and the hospital had no record of the birth as the couple had provided in their statements. So yes it is enough.


Whats your point ?

Diarmuid

What's the return policy on pitchforks?

Henlars67

There have been countless occasions where children were left at home to be abused etc. rather than being taken into care pending further investigation, and people were outraged.

Now two children were taken into care pending further investigation, and were back with their families within 24 hours when it was established that nothing untoward was going on, and people are outraged.

We cannot have it both ways folks.

dj jarvis

LionelNashe wrote: »

They got it wrong, just like most of the posters in this thread.

how did they get it wrong , please spell that out for me and the rest of the class???

listermint

Roger_007 wrote: »

The Gardai could have done a more thorough investigation about the birth records before removing the child from her home and they could have kept the family under surveillance while that was being done. There is no suggestion from anyone that the child was being abused or mistreated so going for the 'nuclear' option was definitely an over-reaction. It was unprofessional and just downright stupid policing. I don't think the word hysterical is out of place.
This story has had massive international exposure and it's going to look like 'those stupid Irish' yet again.

They did!

It took a DNA test ( A DNA TEST) to prove the lineage.

Its downright professional policing and dont use that reverse irish racism around here its disgusting self loathing and im tired of it being used over and over.

namloc1980

listermint wrote: »

Well they couldnt provide a birth cert and the hospital had no record of the birth as the couple had provided in their statements. So yes it is enough.


Whats your point ?

How come the Irish independent were able to get the hospital records but the Gardai couldn't? You'd wonder how much effort they went to.

Phoebas

listermint wrote: »

Well yes. Thats why we have these laws.

So you can't see any possibility that they could have, say, kept the family together under close supervision, for the short amount of time it would take to properly examine the birth records?

darkpagandeath

dj jarvis wrote: »

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Nice hypothetical that's not what happened 2 children were taken from their biological parents end off. We have the facts now stick to them should of cudda wudda nonsense.[/QUOTE]

so the cops doing there job is now cudda wudda nonsense ???

a complaint is made , they have to act
the family could not prove at that point in time that the child was theirs

what would you like them to do ???

cops were 100% correct in their actions and no amount of blowing smoke out ones arse is going to change this fact

its un arguable on a point of law.

well done the Garda - now i HOPE the child does turn out to be from the roma family , becasue that will mean its not a kidnap victim - wont that be a great outcome for everyone

Maybe investigate properly ? One of the papers found the information out fairly fast did they not ? That the kid was born where they said it was.

dj jarvis

namloc1980 wrote: »

How come the Irish independent were able to get the hospital records but the Gardai couldn't? You'd wonder how much effort they went to.

they got in contact with the hospital, with the details they were provided with,
the HOSPITAL told them no match was made

how is that the cops fault ?

listermint

namloc1980 wrote: »

How come the Irish independent were able to get the hospital records but the Gardai couldn't? You'd wonder how much effort they went to.

Ah grand the Independent were able to sift through records over night then okay. Sure that makes it all better.

Im sure this is what the guards were doing while the child was in protective custody, which is what protective custody is there for.

dj jarvis

darkpagandeath wrote: »

dj jarvis wrote: »

Maybe investigate properly ? One of the papers found the information out fairly fast did they not ? That the kid was born where they said it was.

as i said , the hospital provided the false info , based on the info that was provided by the family , so i ask again , how is that the cops fault ?

listermint

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Maybe investigate properly ? One of the papers found the information out fairly fast did they not ? That the kid was born where they said it was.

Fairly fast?


No.

Phoebas

listermint wrote: »

They did!

It took a DNA test ( A DNA TEST) to prove the lineage.

It didn't.

It seems they did a DNA test because they failed to properly identify the birth records where a newspaper journalist succeeded.

darkpagandeath

listermint wrote: »

Ah grand the Independent were able to sift through records over night then okay. Sure that makes it all better.

Im sure this is what the guards were doing while the child was in protective custody, which is what protective custody is there for.

Then why Dna tests ?

namloc1980

dj jarvis wrote: »

they got in contact with the hospital, with the details they were provided with,
the HOSPITAL told them no match was made

how is that the cops fault ?

Again how come a journalist got the info? Seems the Gardai couldn't be bothered getting the info and gave up without thoroughly investigating. I would expect them to make more of an effort before removing a young child from her family. Maybe you don't have high expectations of our police force?

Roger_007

listermint wrote: »

They did!

It took a DNA test ( A DNA TEST) to prove the lineage.

Its downright professional policing and dont use that reverse irish racism around here its disgusting self loathing and im tired of it being used over and over.

The Gardai acted unlawfully IMO. They can only remove a child from its home when there is a real and immediate threat to the child's health or safety. We will see the proof of this when the couple sue the State.

Phoebas

listermint wrote: »

Ah grand the Independent were able to sift through records over night then okay. Sure that makes it all better.

So taking children into protective custody should be done for simple expediency?

My name is URL

listermint wrote: »

They did!

It took a DNA test ( A DNA TEST) to prove the lineage.

Its downright professional policing and dont use that reverse irish racism around here its disgusting self loathing and im tired of it being used over and over.

Really now, do you honestly think that if a concern was raised with Gardai about an Irish couple, or anyone who's not from a much maligned ethnic background; having a kid that 'looked like it didn't belong'; would result in the same sort of response? Would the kid immediately be removed until DNA tests were carried out, or conditions otherwise satisfied them?

I'm not saying that they didn't do the right thing, but it's not unfair to say that they could have gone about it differently, or in a much more discreet manner.

There's perhaps tens of thousands of kids who would be better off away from home and in care of the state tonight. You can't help but feel this whole thing is rooted in hysteria, and Gardai and the state should be above that.

listermint

Phoebas wrote: »

It didn't.

It seems they did a DNA test because they failed to properly identify the birth records where a newspaper journalist succeeded.

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Then why Dna tests ?

DNA tests were sent off as soon as the child was in protective custody.

Investigations where on going.


Anyone here want to blame the hospital no ??

Frankly i blame nobody. We have laws for these things. We expect procedures to be followed (they were)

Is it a case the guards enjoy taking kids of familys to look like heros ?

darkpagandeath

Does no one here see these are supposed to be exceptional powers not to be used willy nilly yet 2 case in so many days ?

Gatling

namloc1980 wrote: »

Again how come a journalist got the info? Seems the Gardai couldn't be bothered getting the info and gave up without thoroughly investigating. I would expect them to make more of an effort before removing a young child from her family. Maybe you don't have high expectations of our police force?

Can anybody prove the journalist is 100% true on his statement ,I'd finds it hard to believe anybody can ring a maternity hospital and be given birth records and yet the gardai are told the birth didn't happen,

RustyNut

listermint wrote: »

The law is there to protect children.

It didn't protect this child.

The child is the victim here, taken from their family in traumatic circumstances because of their hair color.

Something went badly wrong somewhere.

Chinasea

dj jarvis wrote: »

they got in contact with the hospital, with the details they were provided with,
the HOSPITAL told them no match was made

?

~More like they picked up the ball and ran with it. Shame they aren't so trigger happy when it comes to lifting out children in families that are being totally neglected.

I wonder, did the 'tip off'er' ever bother to tip off the Gardai about a family (of any race) that downright neglect their child.

Doubtful.:mad::mad::mad:

strandroad

listermint wrote: »

Well they couldnt provide a birth cert and the hospital had no record of the birth as the couple had provided in their statements. So yes it is enough.

They did produce a birth cert as well as her passport during the first visit, it's in the Indo article.

listermint

My name is URL wrote: »

Really now, do you honestly think that if a concern was raised with Gardai about an Irish couple, or anyone who's not from a much maligned ethnic background; having a kid that 'looked like it didn't belong'; would result in the same sort of response? Would the kid immediately be removed until DNA tests were carried out, or conditions otherwise satisfied them?

I'm not saying that they didn't do the right thing, but it's not unfair to say that they could have gone about it differently, or in a much more discreet manner.

There's perhaps tens of thousands of kids who would be better off away from home and in care of the state tonight. You can't help but feel this whole thing is rooted in hysteria, and Gardai and the state should be above that.

Does that matter?

Everything in life weighs up options,call it profiling if you like but this occurs in policing, in teaching, in hospital, in school, in job interviews, shopping, getting into nightclubs.

NOBODY is safe from profiling. We are all different, wear your hair the wrong way, wear a pair of runners and you get judged and looked at funny.

Thats how the world we live in works.

Calling the Guards idiots and silly irish and giving out about hysteria is a bit rich when people are incensed when they do nothing.


You cant bloody win, and these forum is an example of how fickle people really are.

Phoebas

listermint wrote: »

DNA tests were sent off as soon as the child was in protective custody.

Investigations where on going.


Anyone here want to blame the hospital no ??

Frankly i blame nobody. We have laws for these things. We expect procedures to be followed (they were)

Is it a case the guards enjoy taking kids of familys to look like heros ?

It would seem that had the hospital records been property searched then there would be no need for protective custody or DNA tests.
The hospital may have been at fault, or the Gardai or the parents (or all of them). We just don't know yet.

I think you're being a bit over sensitive - there are definitely some serious questions to be answered here.

dj jarvis

namloc1980 wrote: »

Again how come a journalist got the info? Seems the Gardai couldn't be bothered getting the info and gave up without thoroughly investigating. I would expect them to make more of an effort before removing a young child from her family. Maybe you don't have high expectations of our police force?

hang on , so the garda rang the people who are feckin responsible for the record keeping , and they told them no match , and that is the cops fault ???

should they automatically second guess EVERY official they encounter
ill say it once more for you
they acted with the info that was provided to them by the family , this may have been wrong

do you know that the jurno had the VERY same info ?
maybe a name was slightly different than the one supplied by the family

blaming the "lack of skill" show by the garda is just lazy.

seamus

darkpagandeath wrote: »

My other problem is with children in care of the state that have been left to die where were the garda then ?

Care to cite some examples of children who have been "left to die" while in the care of the state? Not teenagers who have run away now, actual cases of neglect.

Phoebas wrote: »

So you can't see any possibility that they could have, say, kept the family together under close supervision, for the short amount of time it would take to properly examine the birth records?

Well, no.
The Gardai would have no power to detain the family or prevent them from travelling without a court order and only then if they had good reason to suspect a crime had been committed.

The only powers available to them under the law were to take the child into custody temporarily as they had good reason to suspect the child did not belong to the family.

The only thing which didn't work here was the hospital providing the wrong information, and the hospital needs to look into that and take steps to avoid such a thing happening in future. Otherwise everything went well, job done properly.

listermint

Phoebas wrote: »

It would seem that had the hospital records been property searched then there would be no need for protective custody or DNA tests.
The hospital may have been at fault, or the Gardai or the parents (or all of them). We just don't know yet.

I think you're being a bit over sensitive - there are definitely some serious questions to be answered here.

Yes like why arent we doing more in helping kids in genuine distress with abusive parents.

But this case was by the book.

Hopefully more resources assist other cases.

dj jarvis

[QUOTE=Chinasea;87158085]~More like they picked up the ball and ran with it. Shame they aren't so trigger happy when it comes to lifting out children in families that are being totally neglected.

I wonder, did the 'tip off'er' ever bother to tip off the Gardai about a family (of any race) that downright neglect their child.

Doubtful.:mad::mad::mad:[/QUOTE]


so thats your answer ???

this thread is turning into a train crash - no point arguing with people that just dont see the facts for what they are.

the cops were told by an OFFICIAL that the papers did not match

so its their job to second guess everything they are told by a records office ???