Excluded over headphones

Bbrunnin

Hi ,was in a race today a 10 km it went v well had on my nike+ and headphones ,went home and was looking at results and it said a few results were not posted over headphones .I am not running long and there was no notices on site that i booked race with and loads of people were wearing them . Feel like i did something wrong and so disappointed as it was a pb .am i wrong ?? Also will say i didnt even have music on just km and time every km but thats my luck :confused

rom

You should have read the terms and conditions. Yes you did do something wrong. It is not ok to wear headphones if they are not allowed. It is about time that this started happening tbh.

http://www.corksports.ie/contentfiles/claire/Leisureworld%20Rebel%20Run%2010km%20Postal%20Entry%20Form1.pdf

18 results have been removed by the organisers due to people wearing headphones.

RacoonQueen

Results say to email someone at Cork Sports for any queries. I think some on here are a bit overly picky about headphones but it's in the rules so...

Bbrunnin

Point taken might not post again !! But will know for future

rom

Bbrunnin wrote: »

Point taken might not post again !! But will know for future

It is nothing personal but it is for the your and everyone else safety. People wearing headphones can get in the way http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=86651395&postcount=115

alexanderomahon

But in fairness there should be signs warning of consequences of wearing headphones. In all honesty who reads terms and conditions when agreeing to most things.

martyboy48

My take on it....

Personally, I'm against the use of headphones in any race. It's something that needs to be brought in, in EVERY run/race(I use run as some peeps try to differentiate between both).

As I'm fairly new to running, I see where Bbrunnin is coming from. Unless is is clearly, and I mean CLEARLY stated "no headphones or DQ/no result" then there is a case to answer for..

Sticking it in terms and conditions isn't good enough, from the point of view nobody really reads them and to make it across the board, it's got to be driven from the get go, ie a check box or similar before proceeding..

I understand totally ROMS position on this, i'm with him/her on this... It's just that it's not to long ago when I was signing up for a "race" not fully up to speed on etiquette/safety and looking for my time ect...

Best bet is to learn from it and move on.... DQ probably wont change, but you're knowledge will... Send on an E-Mail to organisers and they may make it more clear in future if it wasn't already....

Oh, and stick around here, I've learned LOADS in here....

Cabaal

martyboy48 wrote: »

Sticking it in terms and conditions isn't good enough, from the point of view nobody really reads them and to make it across the board, it's got to be driven from the get go, ie a check box or similar before proceeding..

You've looked at the app form for the race in question right?

http://www.corksports.ie/contentfiles/claire/Leisureworld%20Rebel%20Run%2010km%20Postal%20Entry%20Form1.pdf

Its not like the headphone part is hidden in the iTunes EULA here, there's 10 lines of text clearly formatted and the no headphones part is in red text.

My take on it is people in general have a complete lack of respect for this very sensible rule,

The rule exists for everyone's safety and enjoyment, in most cases those wearing headphones effectively turn into running zombie's who are oblivious to what goes on around them.

Saying people don't read the Terms & Conditions just isn't a good enough excuse for not following this rule, sure it sucks for the OP but at the end of the day they took their chances by using headphones.

Cookie_Monster

whats the reasoning behind it, often see the same for cycling events; despite the fact the pros all were them.

RayCun

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

whats the reasoning behind it, often see the same for cycling events; despite the fact the pros all were them.

People wearing headphones don't hear instructions from stewards, emergency vehicles coming, or other runners passing them out.

Every time this comes up, people say "but I don't have my music that loud, I'm always aware of what's going on around me". Well, maybe that's true of the boards posters, but anyone I've seen in a race wearing headphones is deaf to the world.

(I presume cycling pros wear them to hear instructions from the team, they're not playing music)

nerraw1111

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

whats the reasoning behind it, often see the same for cycling events; despite the fact the pros all were them.

Generally for safety reasons. Can't hear Marshall instructions/emergency vehicles.

As RQ says, some are very anti headphones. The debate is the equivalent to the helmet debate in cycling forum.

Are the pro cyclists not wearing headphones for instruction? Rather than some tunes?

Cabaal

nerraw1111 wrote: »

some are very anti headphones. The debate is the equivalent to the helmet debate in cycling forum.

I wouldn't see it as the same sort of debate at all,

The helmet debate is generally you should wear them or not regardless of the situation due to safety. They'll protect your head etc etc etc.

The headphone debate is that you can wear them all you want during your training, but in races its against the rules of the race you shoudn't wear them for safety reasons and the fact that you may not hear instruction etc.

I honestly don't care if people wear them or not during their training, my issue is during races. I've seen far too many close calls and I've encountered far too many people wearing them that don't pay attention to other people in the race.

In addition you've only have to read the linked post above from menoscemo about the Dublin Half about what happens in an emergency situation.

Its certainly not the same sort of debate esp considering that the headphone thing is against race rules, you agree not to wear them when you enter.

It would be no different with cycle helmets at an event and you'd see no cyclist argue this and as such they'd wear one if they want to take part....but they are not required by law outside of that.

Cookie_Monster

RayCun wrote: »

People wearing headphones don't hear instructions from stewards, emergency vehicles coming,

fair enough, same as the cycling in theory then.

RayCun wrote: »

or other runners passing them out.

what does that matter so much? is it not the responsibility of the person passing you to do so without interfering with your race or are their 'backmarker' rules as such?

RayCun wrote: »

(I presume cycling pros wear them to hear instructions from the team, they're not playing music)

presumably for the most part but what's the difference, noise is noise, right?

Ron Scott

alexanderomahon wrote: »

But in fairness there should be signs warning of consequences of wearing headphones. In all honesty who reads terms and conditions when agreeing to most things.

I was in the same race. It was clearly said to me when I collected my race number, and said several times on the public address at the start.

Cabaal

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

what does that matter so much? is it not the responsibility of the person passing you to do so without interfering with your race or are their 'backmarker' rules as such?

Never encountered three or more people wearing headphones running side by side at a much slower pace effectively blocking the route for other runners to safely pass?

Ever try say excuse me to these sorts of people and notice they don't on any level respond?

Yes the person passing should ensure they pass safely, but people effectively blocking the route in this manner is a safety issue and they created this issue due to headphone usage.

RayCun

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

what does that matter so much? is it not the responsibility of the person passing you to do so without interfering with your race or are their 'backmarker' rules as such?

The person passing you out should leave room to pass safely. But if you don't know there's someone passing you, you might veer into their path or smack them in the face when you wave at spectators, or spit on them, or throw half a gel at them, or...

nerraw1111

Cabaal wrote: »

I wouldn't see it as the same sort of debate at all,

The helmet debate is generally you should wear them or not regardless of the situation due to safety. They'll protect your head etc etc etc.

The headphone debate is that you can wear them all you want during your training, but in races its against the rules of the race you shoudn't wear them for safety reasons and the fact that you may not hear instruction etc.

I honestly don't care if people wear them or not during their training, my issue is during races. I've seen far too many close calls and I've encountered far too many people wearing them that don't pay attention to other people in the race.

In addition you've only have to read the linked post above from menoscemo about the Dublin Half about what happens in an emergency situation.

Its certainly not the same sort of debate esp considering that the headphone thing is against race rules, you agree not to wear them when you enter.

It would be no different with cycle helmets at an event and you'd see no cyclist argue this and as such they'd wear one if they want to take part....but they are not required by law outside of that.

Agreed. Should've been more clearer, I meant it's a topic that always comes up rather than similar issues. Perhaps a poor comparison. Good to see races actually DQ'ing people where the rules are broken.

seamus

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

what does that matter so much? is it not the responsibility of the person passing you to do so without interfering with your race or are their 'backmarker' rules as such?

On a narrower track someone with headphones in won't be listening out for people behind them and will impede the progress of other runners.
I don't know if it's a specific rule, but one of most important pieces of etiquette is that you move over to let faster runners through.

RacoonQueen

Cabaal wrote: »

I wouldn't see it as the same sort of debate at all,

The helmet debate is generally you should wear them or not regardless of the situation due to safety. They'll protect your head etc etc etc.

The headphone debate is that you can wear them all you want during your training, but in races its against the rules of the race you shoudn't wear them for safety reasons and the fact that you may not hear instruction etc.

Well many people believe that helmets can be unsafe to wear and they can have a good point in that regard as well.

Nothing unsafe about wearing headphones and it's against the rules in very few races. People can zone out just as much while wearing them, having full hearing isn't going to make people any less ignorant or stupid. Same old boring debate now opened...

nerraw1111

seamus wrote: »

On a narrower track someone with headphones in won't be listening out for people behind them and will impede the progress of other runners.
I don't know if it's a specific rule, but one of most important pieces of etiquette is that you move over to let faster runners through.

Is that etiquette? Depends on the race. If you're in front, you earned that spot. Up to them to go around you.

Cabaal

nerraw1111 wrote: »

Is that etiquette? Depends on the race. If you're in front, you earned that spot. Up to them to go around you.

I've done few races that include 5km loops,

Just because I'm in front doesn't make me first....I wish though :pac:

vitani

nerraw1111 wrote: »

Is that etiquette? Depends on the race. If you're in front, you earned that spot. Up to them to go around you.

Not if you started the race ahead of where you should have.

stooge

do hard of hearing/deaf people get disqualified because they can't hear marshalls instructions/emergency vehicles?

martyboy48

Cabaal wrote: »

You've looked at the app form for the race in question right?

No, I didn't.. Apologies if I was way off. Just seen terms and conditions mentioned and thought the worst...

ThisRegard

stooge wrote: »

do hard of hearing/deaf people get disqualified because they can't hear marshalls instructions/emergency vehicles?

No, but they have their hands taped together so they can't give about it afterwards.

I'm always reminded of this photo I posted in the Off Topic forum and for which Rom, who must have been having a slow day in work, kindly highlighted each runner wearing them.

Cabaal

stooge wrote: »

do hard of hearing/deaf people get disqualified because they can't hear marshalls instructions/emergency vehicles?

Different setup completely and frankly its kinda insulting to deaf people to even suggest they are the same.

One is a disability of which they are often capable of making up for this loss with other senses,

The other is a person who has all their senses but effectively goes out of their way to cause themselves an impairment of which they are not able to make up for this loss as its not something they live with 24/7,

robinph

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Well many people believe that helmets can be unsafe to wear and they can have a good point in that regard as well.

Nothing unsafe about wearing headphones and it's against the rules in very few races. People can zone out just as much while wearing them, having full hearing isn't going to make people any less ignorant or stupid. Same old boring debate now opened...

The wearing of a helmet or not is not effecting the safety of others though, wearing headphones and not being aware of what is going on around you does affect other participants in the event.

Edit: Glad to see an event being active in actually following up on this rule.

PaulieC

alexanderomahon wrote: »

But in fairness there should be signs warning of consequences of wearing headphones. In all honesty who reads terms and conditions when agreeing to most things.

Not going near the headphones issue as it is indeed a can of worms, but surely if you don't read the terms and conditions you have absolutely no comeback when something happens that you agreed to ?

Ignorantia juris non excusat

Izoard

The "what harm, etc..." arguments are often trotted out, but you only have to look at some of the chaos at the Dublin Half Marathon in the park, where emergency vehicles were being delayed, because many head-phone wearing runners were ambling along in the middle of the road, oblivious to the panic behind them.

spurscormac

From a number of perspectives, those wearing headphones can be an annoyance, and at times a danger to themselves and other competitors.
As has already been mentioned, there's the blocking of the road when a group of them run side by side, headphones in & have started further up the field than their ability, blocking others from getting past.
Then there's those who simply cannot hear instructions from a marshal/steward. I have witnessed incidents where these folk have obliviously almost run into oncoming traffic when coming round a corner, they veer wide into the opposite lane (which isn't closed), despite persistant shouting from marshals at that corner to keep to that lane.
Also witnessed similar calls by stewards warning about obstructions such as street bollards, bins, etc, but these folk again almost plant themselves cos they can't hear.

I understand that newbies who are used to training on the treadmill or on the paths with their own music are confused as to what the problem is with headphones, but honestly, its for your own safety.

Agree though, that organisers should make it clear on number collection, via signs near the start & calling it out on the PA system that those wearing them will be DQ'd - if its a rule, then implement it.

stooge

didnt mean to insult, but I hope you can see my point. similar question if someone had earplugs in their ears instead of earphones, would that result in a disqualification?

Krusty_Clown

stooge wrote: »

didnt mean to insult, but I hope you can see my point. similar question if someone had earplugs in their ears instead of earphones, would that result in a disqualification?

I would have thought so. You'd hope that nobody would be that dumb, but if it became prevalent, you can be sure it would be added to the rules, T&Cs.

stooge

different people have different ways of concentrating on their race and how they run it. If they can concentrate on keeping the right pace with headphones or earplugs I dont see the issue.

run_Forrest_run

stooge wrote: »

different people have different ways of concentrating on their race and how they run it. If they can concentrate on keeping the right pace with headphones or earplugs I dont see the issue.

But on public roads where others are using the road you have to see the issue is health and safety for all (including the runner).

A GPS watch is far more effective in helping to maintain one's pace than some music on a pair of headphones

rom

ThisRegard wrote: »

must have been having a slow day in work

TFBubendorfer

spurscormac wrote: »

Agree though, that organisers should make it clear on number collection, via signs near the start & calling it out on the PA system that those wearing them will be DQ'd - if its a rule, then implement it.

If it's printed in bright red on the entry form, the organisers have done their job. It's up to the runners to know and obey the rules, not to the organisers to hammer them home several times.

Krusty_Clown

stooge wrote: »

different people have different ways of concentrating on their race and how they run it. If they can concentrate on keeping the right pace with headphones or earplugs I dont see the issue.

Just as well you're not a race organizer then and are not responsible for health and safety.

robinph

stooge wrote: »

different people have different ways of concentrating on their race and how they run it. If they can concentrate on keeping the right pace with headphones or earplugs I dont see the issue.

It's not about trying to make it more difficult for people to concentrate on their race or pace themselves, it's about the safety of yourself and others.

drquirky

You'd know its taper week around here! :D:D

slingerz

Izoard wrote: »

The "what harm, etc..." arguments are often trotted out, but you only have to look at some of the chaos at the Dublin Half Marathon in the park, where emergency vehicles were being delayed, because many head-phone wearing runners were ambling along in the middle of the road, oblivious to the panic behind them.

this is one thing i fail to grasp. i dont know what headphones or headphones wearer would be so loud as to block out a siren of an ambulance in close proximity.

robinph

slingerz wrote: »

this is one thing i fail to grasp. i dont know what headphones or headphones wearer would be so loud as to block out a siren of an ambulance in close proximity.

It's not just the raw sound volumes that you have to consider though. People are very good at ignoring sounds that they are not interested in hearing as can be shown by how people manage to hold conversations across crowded pubs. If you are singing along in your head to some tune it would need to be a very loud siren and right on top of you before you would actually notice it over the top of your favourite tunes.

Krusty_Clown

slingerz wrote: »

this is one thing i fail to grasp. i dont know what headphones or headphones wearer would be so loud as to block out a siren of an ambulance in close proximity.

Well, if they're loud enough to drown out the noise of a passing train....

spurscormac

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Well, if they're loud enough to drown out the noise of a passing train....

Darwin award nominees, one & all.

Here endeth the lesson folks.

Red Belly

I always train with headphones, podcasts rather than music (not so loud), one earbud out if running in a busy (traffic or pedestrians) area or on a road with no footpath. Never in a race or event though. DCM 2011 I would have come a cropper at the first water station if I hadn't heard the runner just behind me call out a warning about a sea of bottle tops I was about to run into. I use the Galloway method and take frequent short walk breaks in marathons. I've been surprised by the number of others I've seen do this in marathons who DON'T take the trouble to look behind them before they start walking and cause pileups. This would be compounded by wearing headphones.

My first marathon I was worried about being able to cope without headphones for such a long run but in fact the atmosphere and the camaraderie more than made up for it. I think a lot of runners who use headphones in training underestimate the distraction and enjoyment that can be gotten from soaking up the atmosphere and getting to chat other runners and overestimate the value of headphones for distracting them from the monotony of long runs: long training runs might be monotonous but events usually aren't.

Headphones while cycling is just plain silly. Pros use one earbud only for race radio, they're on closed roads and they're pros. In mass participation cycling events when roads aren't closed the calls of 'car behind' and 'car in front' are critical for everyone's safety.


rb

Rolex_

Tiny bit of sympathy for anyone who was disqualified at a human level. On the other hand I was delighted to see the rule being enforced for once and for all. It's dangerous to wear earphones and it's antisocial. I was an official pacer at a large race this year where a good runner (who should have known better) ran practically glued to my elbow for the first 5 miles with her music so loud that it was like a drill in my ear!! Not pleasant to be honest:D

josip

Cabaal wrote: »

Different setup completely and frankly its kinda insulting to deaf people to even suggest they are the same.

One is a disability of which they are often capable of making up for this loss with other senses,

The other is a person who has all their senses but effectively goes out of their way to cause themselves an impairment of which they are not able to make up for this loss as its not something they live with 24/7,

Not agreeing/disagreeing with either party here, but just to add my own experience.
I'm fairly deaf; without my hearing aids I'd be oblivious to most sounds.

1. I'm not going to hear what a marshall says to me during a race without my hearing aids. Even if I stop, the sound of my own heart beating will drown out what the marshall is saying. Some deaf people can lip read but not all.
2. I'm more likely to be run over by the emergency vehicle rather than hear it. Hopefully it will be an ambulance rather than a fire engine.
3. I will be very aware of those around me, especially those either side of me at my peripeheral vision. However, despite my best efforts, I have not been able to migrate my eyes to the side of my head to give me hare-like 360 degree vision. So I won't be aware of anyone behind me until I get the tap on the elbow.

Timmaay

What about in smaller races, where often the race directer will give specific instructions just before the race, if 1/2 the field have headphones in and don't here the instructions there will be chaos in the race!

Bbrunnin

Hi yes it is very personal as it happened to me a newbie runner who wants to run a marathon next year
It is in the terms and conditions so will read them twice from now on rang the organisers after race spoke to member of staff he could not believe it ,he said loads were wearing them and he was a steward on the day so i am not the only one who was in the dark ,even some of the staff did not know
Do feel it should be on main flyer or print out for collecting pack when it come to health and safety everyone needs reminding like in a kitchen "wash your hands "etc etc who would think you d need to remind people of that ?
But you live and learn folks

RacoonQueen

Bbrunnin wrote: »

Hi yes it is very personal as it happened to me a newbie runner who wants to run a marathon next year
It is in the terms and conditions so will read them twice from now on rang the organisers after race spoke to member of staff he could not believe it ,he said loads were wearing them and he was a steward on the day so i am not the only one who was in the dark ,even some of the staff did not know
Do feel it should be on main flyer or print out for collecting pack when it come to health and safety everyone needs reminding like in a kitchen "wash your hands "etc etc who would think you d need to remind people of that ?
But you live and learn folks

It's very unlikely you'll ever be DQ'd for it again unless they bring in blanket rules like they have in triathlon. It's usually not advised but the only other races I've ever seen it as a complete no go in I think was Connemara and Midland Half(I think, may have been another race)...but people still wore them without penalty.

Gavlor

Bbrunnin wrote: »

Hi yes it is very personal as it happened to me a newbie runner who wants to run a marathon next year
It is in the terms and conditions so will read them twice from now on rang the organisers after race spoke to member of staff he could not believe it ,he said loads were wearing them and he was a steward on the day so i am not the only one who was in the dark ,even some of the staff did not know
Do feel it should be on main flyer or print out for collecting pack when it come to health and safety everyone needs reminding like in a kitchen "wash your hands "etc etc who would think you d need to remind people of that ?
But you live and learn folks

To be honest once you start training without earphones you won't even think of bringing them to a race. In general i find running more enjoyable without music, audio books etc. lots of life's problems get resolved when I'm running, it's like Jeremy Kyle inside my head everyday

Cookie_Monster

Cabaal wrote: »

Never encountered three or more people wearing headphones running side by side at a much slower pace effectively blocking the route for other runners to safely pass?

I'm confused now, are we talking about actual races or just a sportive type event?

If it's an actual restricted race it would be fair enough but open event in public places like the Dublin Marathon etc its overkill IMO.