Pregnant - being put under pressure to resign by boss

LegacyUser

A little background, when pregnant I suffer from a debilitating condition called hyperemesis gravidarum. This is not "just" morning sickness, it can result in severe weight loss, dehydration and being extremely ill. It has resulted in me being admitted to hospital for days at a time to be rehydrated and given injections to try to stop the vomiting.
I am currently expecting a baby next year. I work part time and am back since my last maternity leave approx 8 months. When I found out I was pregnant, knowing that I suffer from such an extreme reaction I took the decision to try medication to stem the illness. It wasn't an easy decision to come to as we all know the result of medication given to mothers for morning sickness previously. Thus far I have managed to only be brought to hospital once for rehydration, I generally don't feel well but can get on with it however on a couple of occassions in the last month I have been too ill to go to work ( I couldn't get out of bed let alone go to work). I let my employer know and each time on my return, most recently this week, he has asked me what I'm playing at and what do I want to do about work? He is putting me under severe pressure to resign and to my shame, I was in tears this week as he eyeballed me waiting for an answer as to what I want to do. He wants the person who covered my last maternity leave to take over my job as this other person is more dependable than me ( wont be sick with morning sickness ever - no responsibilities at home etc) . He wants me to resign now because he is afraid this other person will get another job in the meantime. I have several months to go before I can go on maternity leave and my intention was to work until that time ( the sickness usually gets better the further into pregnancy I go ) but last week he told me that he wants to talk to me again tomorrow about what I want to do about work. I know exactly what he's at but I can't afford not to be working now and to lose my maternity benefit next year. I'm so stressed about this I feel ill and I'm actually scared about facing him tomorrow as he's going to try to force my hand again. I don't want to engage in any further discussions with him about this, I just want to draw a line under it for the next few months til I can go on maternity leave.My husband suggested writing a letter telling him that I will continue to work for the company and should that position change, I will advise him. What can I do to get him to stop pressuring me once and for all? I can't guarantee that I wont be off sick again - that's the nature of the illness and I'm genuinely doing a great job when I'm there and catching up asap as soon as I'm back. I also don't get paid when I'm not in work. What should I do next?

otwb

Am not sure what industry you are working in op, but it looks as if your boss is treading on thin ice here and doesn't realise it.

Suggest that you check out rights for pregnant workers on citizens information or there may be information on the equality tribunal website...

Good luck

Rachineire

He cannot force you to resign because your ill because of your pregnancy. Thats illegal there are tons of laws peotecting the rights of pregnant worker's. Don't be intimated by this man. The law is on your side....things are tougb enough right now for you without this hassle. Tell him you are working until you have to go for maternity leave, that you are doing the best you can to control the hyperemis and to continue working is what is best for you and your family. If he continues you can contact citizens information they would be all over this because what he is doing is not legal at all! Best of luck tomorrow and keep a cool head- your in the right, not him.

lukesmom

My God first off what an ar$ehole treating you this way. He has absolutely no right in the way he is conducting this. Tell him tomorrow that you know your rights and you aren't going anywhere. Best of luck

Wanderer2010

Thats a horrible situation OP, have you a HR department or union rep? If so go straight to them and tell them what you told us - your boss is repeatedly asking you to "sort it out" and that you feel under pressure to quit even though you need the job and the money. Keep a diary of dates and conversations with this man and present them to HR if it happens again, log a grievance with HR- no company worth its salt will want this case over them and will help resolve the situation. If you dont have a union rep or HR, contact a solicitor to get your full rights, theres a lot of help out there for you OP, whatever you do dont quit, the balance is 100% in your favor.

Fridge

He does not have any right to force you into this. You do have the law on your side, so do not let him bully you into it.

Familiarize yourself with your rights via the links below and remember you have the right not to be dismissed for any pregnancy-related reason.

Under Section 26 of the Maternity Protection Act 1994 you are entitled to return to work to the same job with the same contract of employment. Section 27 of the Act states that if it is not reasonably practicable for your employer to allow you to return to your job, then they must provide you with suitable alternative work. This new position should not be on terms substantially less favourable than those of your previous job.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/leave_and_holidays/maternity_leave.html

http://www.brophysolicitors.ie/brophysolicitors/main/Employment_Maternity_Leave.htm

MATERNITY PROTECTION (AMENDMENT) ACT 2004
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2004/en/act/pub/0028/index.html


http://crisispregnancy.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Pregnancy_Discrimination_in_the_Workplace_Legal-Framework-and-Review-of-Legal-Decisions_1999_to_2008.pdf

gandalf

You don't mention the industry or size of the company. If the company is large enough and has a HR department I suggest you talk to them because your manager is creating a very dangerous situation for the company legally. If its a small company I suggest you talk to a Solicitor specialising in employment law if your bosses behaviour continues in the same vein. Good luck and make sure you record every interaction in a diary listing exactly what he said and how it made you feel at the time.

Junglewoman

Postpone the meeting saying you are currently seeking advice on your position and reschedule. Contact NERA

http://www.employmentrights.ie/en/Workplace_Relations_Bodies/National_Employment_Rights_Authority/National_Employment_Rights_Authority_NERA_.html

Big Mouth

To be fair I would have some sympathy for your boss here......its not his fault your pregnant again and its not his fault you have such terrible pregnancies and you do mention you're quick enough to take the maternity benefit your boss has to pay so there has to be some perspective.

Added to that he is looking for a person who knows the job (by covering your previous maternity leave) and is worried that person will take other employment.

Don't forget most companies are really struggling right now to pay the bills!

Stheno

Big Mouth wrote: »

To be fair I would have some sympathy for your boss here......its not his fault your pregnant again and its not his fault you have such terrible pregnancies and you do mention you're quick enough to take the maternity benefit your boss has to pay so there has to be some perspective.

Added to that he is looking for a person who knows the job (by covering your previous maternity leave) and is worried that person will take other employment.

Don't forget most companies are really struggling right now to pay the bills!

2 points.

1. It is illegal to discriminate against a woman who is suffering illness directly related to pregnancy
2. The OP has never mentioned that her employer pays benefit, rather she may be referring to state paid maternity benefit.

I've not been in the OPs position, but I have been in an interview where based on my age, where I lived and where I worked, my interviewer asked me how I managed my "obvious" family commitments, childcare, and the fact I lived 60 miles from home.

Clear bias there which is illegal. OP has a very solid case that her employer is acting outside the law and imo should see a solicitor for advice.

capefear

Op first off write down everything he has said to you time dates witnesses everything and start keeping a diary. What he is trying to do is called constructive dismissal. It happened a friend of mine, her job wanted her out but didn't want to pay her redundancy so they made her life hell hoping she would quit. She went on the sick and after 6 months of her solicitor chatting to their hr department she got her redundancy plus back pay etc. Do not quit, you have rights. Speak to someone who knows this area. If you go to the meeting tomorrow bring a work colleague you trust as a witness. He cannot fire you now and he can not fire you when you are on maternity leave.

Hth.

Mrs OBumble

Big Mouth wrote: »

To be fair I would have some sympathy for your boss here......its not his fault your pregnant again and its not his fault you have such terrible pregnancies ....
Don't forget most companies are really struggling right now to pay the bills!

I'd have some sympathy with the boss too. If this was a non-pregnancy related recurring illness, I'd be questioning whether the employee is fit for the job.

However that's irrelevant because the Irish government has decided (for good broader social reasons) that it's illlegal to discriminate against a woman on the basis of a pregnancy related illness. This makes the manager's behaviour unacceptable, and the other advice here pretty much right on the mark.

And I wouldn't assume that "most" companies are really struggling to pay the bills. Some are, for sure. But plenty aren't, too.

Big Mouth

id play your cards right here as you could be in line for a nice big pay out from that boss!!!

seek advice from a HR specialist and look after yourself and your baby no.1

best of luck

There you go, that's the spirit! :rolleyes:

a fat guy

I know that in America (Could be another country), there's a term for employer's trying to get employee's to resign by making working conditions so intolerable that they can't take it any longer.

It's also very illegal.

You should absolutely not quit OP, stick with it and get legal advice. I could identify with his side of the story (Paying wages to a non-working employee) if that actually was the case (I don't think you mentioned it) and he wasn't being such an arsehole to a pregnant woman.

He's trying to bully you out of your job, so you absolutely CANNOT let him.

tatli_lokma

a fat guy wrote: »

I know that in America (Could be another country), there's a term for employer's trying to get employee's to resign by making working conditions so intolerable that they can't take it any longer.

It's also very illegal.

You should absolutely not quit OP, stick with it and get legal advice. I could identify with his side of the story (Paying wages to a non-working employee) if that actually was the case (I don't think you mentioned it) and he wasn't being such an arsehole to a pregnant woman.

He's trying to bully you out of your job, so you absolutely CANNOT let him.

What you refer to is contructive dismissal.

As for sympathy, I have none for bosses like this. OP doesn't state if they get paid maternity leave or not, but that is not an issue regardless. If a company cannot afford to give paid maternity or sick leave then there is no legal obligation on them to do so. If you have agreed to pay it then you have to suck it up. If you don't pay it then what is the issue? you get someone in on maternity cover. I know it can be inconvenient to advertise, interview and train someone, but you can't expect people to avoid having families alltogether! You could always not hire women of childbearing age and not admit to it, but then then you could be missing out on the best person for the job.


OP you are very well protected by virtue of being pregnant. You are clearly not manipulating the situation unnecessarily (I know that Hyperemisis is a horrendous thing to endure) so you have nothing to feel guilty about and no reason to give in to this horrible boss.

When he next asks what you intend to do, maybe just print out a copy of the maternity protection act and some information from citizens information, and then hand it to him. Tell him you intend to work as much as you physically and medically are able and then to take your maternity leave and at the end of it return to work. You have no plans other than that, and if he has a problem with it he needs to make himself familiar with the law and protections in place for pregnant workers.

Men like this give other men a bad name - things would be very different if these men were the ones who had to juggle pregnancy and then motherhood and a job.

dreamers75

Stheno wrote: »

2 points.

1. It is illegal to discriminate against a woman who is suffering illness directly related to pregnancy
2. The OP has never mentioned that her employer pays benefit, rather she may be referring to state paid maternity benefit.

I've not been in the OPs position, but I have been in an interview where based on my age, where I lived and where I worked, my interviewer asked me how I managed my "obvious" family commitments, childcare, and the fact I lived 60 miles from home.

Clear bias there which is illegal. OP has a very solid case that her employer is acting outside the law and imo should see a solicitor for advice.

From the OP the employer has done nothing wrong, he is only asking what the OP would like to do about the job. Im sure the boss knows the law as much as this forum. But the boss also has a job to do with an unreliable worker.

Can the OP not go sick? Assume thats where the boss is going with this, clearly unfit for work and has previous.

BTW if if one of my employees did this i would sack them legally 100% via diciplinary process on the basis of missing work days.

tatli_lokma

dreamers75 wrote: »

From the OP the employer has done nothing wrong, he is only asking what the OP would like to do about the job. Im sure the boss knows the law as much as this forum. But the boss also has a job to do with an unreliable worker.

Can the OP not go sick? Assume thats where the boss is going with this, clearly unfit for work and has previous.

BTW if if one of my employees did this i would sack them legally 100% via diciplinary process on the basis of missing work days.

And if you did that you would find yourself up in an EAT. Missing work and being unable to do your job due to illness is not the same as being unable to work due to illness as a result of pregnancy. Clearly you don't know the law very well either. A pregnant worker is very highly protected even down to the employer having to make reasonable accommodation to do different duties if needed, give paid time off for hospital appointments and antenatal classes and being obliged to allow the employee to return to the same job after their maternity leave has finished. It is protected as one of the 9 grounds of discrimination unlike someone who is not pregnant missing work due to illness.

OP feels quite certain that her boss is not asking her to 'go sick' but consider resigning. He simply cannot do this. Even if OP does miss time off, she is not obliged to 'go sick'. If she doesn't get paid for sick leave then she would only be entitled to illness benefit of €181 per week. Why should she sit at home on weeks she is able to work and be down money? She is working when and as much as she can. If she wants to go sick and gets a doctor to confirm this is best for her then that's fair enough but she can't be forced to do that. And if she goes out sick she cannot be sacked because her sickness is directly caused by pregnancy and therefore she is protected by the maternity protection act.

Wanderer2010

^ Exactly.

Dreamer75, you clearly know very very little if you think you can "get rid" of a pregnant employee using a few missing days here and there. Its a minefield of legality out there plus any HR or union rep would smell what you are up to a mile away.

wmpdd3

Even if this wasn't pregnancy related, it would be hard to dismiss the person due to their in ability to manage their illnesses pregnancy is a temporary condition. It is when there is no end in sight that an employer can try to move to dismiss.

OP, document everything.

Always have a witness of your choosing at each meeting. If there is no time to get a witness excuse yourself from the meeting.

Do not quit what ever you do.

Victor

If you so wish, and I'm not suggesting it as the route you take, you could enquire as to whether you could be entitled to either maternity Benefit or Health and Safety Benefit now. However, HSB is more aimed at a riskier workplace than a less comfortable pregnancy.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/social_welfare_payments_to_families_and_children/health_safety_benefit.html

tatli_lokma

Victor wrote: »

If you so wish, and I'm not suggesting it as the route you take, you could enquire as to whether you could be entitled to either maternity Benefit or Health and Safety Benefit now. However, HSB is more aimed at a riskier workplace than a less comfortable pregnancy.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/social_welfare_payments_to_families_and_children/health_safety_benefit.html

It's hardly fair that she should use up so much of her maternity benefit prior to the birth. After the birth she will be left without money sooner and will finish her leave entitlement sooner also. The H&S leave might work or even just illness benefit. But either way they are not the same as getting a full salary on the weeks she is able to work work full week, which she says sometimes she can manage to do.

Nevadablue

First of all sympathies the OP, not an easy situation to be in.

A colleague of mine is in a somewhat similar position in so far as she is having quite a difficult pregnancy, and has just recently reached the limit for paid sick leave for the year.
There is a fairly high chance that this person will have more sick days between now and next year when the baby comes - does anyone know in this situation if the employer is obliged to pay this person over & above the stated max sick pay, or can they advise her that any future sick days will not be paid?

blondie990

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I'd have some sympathy with the boss too. If this was a non-pregnancy related recurring illness, I'd be questioning whether the employee is fit for the job.

However that's irrelevant because the Irish government has decided (for good broader social reasons) that it's illlegal to discriminate against a woman on the basis of a pregnancy related illness. This makes the manager's behaviour unacceptable, and the other advice here pretty much right on the mark.

And I wouldn't assume that "most" companies are really struggling to pay the bills. Some are, for sure. But plenty aren't, too.

Genuine question here, why is it possibly okay to dismiss someone for a non-pregnancy related illness but not a pregnancy related illness?

tatli_lokma

No obligation to pay for any sick days, regardless of their cause or duration. The employer paying for any sick days at all is a perk that many employers do not give. All she would be entitled to is her illness benefit from social welfare, but to get this she would have to be out sick for at least 3 days at a time because the first 3 days of each illness are not covered by illness benefit, so this realistically will only work if she is out for a week at a time. A day or two here or there won't get her any benefit.

tatli_lokma

blondie990 wrote: »

Genuine question here, why is it possibly okay to dismiss someone for a non-pregnancy related illness but not a pregnancy related illness?

Because it is discriminatory on gender grounds as a man cannot be pregnant, therefore could not be sacked for the same reason. Also a pregnancy related illness is by its nature a temporary illness so your ability to do your job would only be affected for a maximim period of time.

blondie990

tatli_lokma wrote: »

No obligation to pay for any sick days, regardless of their cause or duration. The employer paying for any sick days at all is a perk that many employers do not give. All she would be entitled to is her illness benefit from social welfare, but to get this she would have to be out sick for at least 3 days at a time because the first 3 days of each illness are not covered by illness benefit, so this realistically will only work if she is out for a week at a time. A day or two here or there won't get her any benefit.

I could be wrong, but I think this increased to 6 days in the Budget. Anybody able to confirm that?

blondie990

tatli_lokma wrote: »

Because it is discriminatory on gender grounds as a man cannot be pregnant, therefore could not be sacked for the same reason. Also a pregnancy related illness is by its nature a temporary illness so your ability to do your job would only be affected for a maximim period of time.

But a pregnancy related illness can be avoided by not getting pregnant? For example, if someone has a long-term illness that they were born with there's not much they can do to avoid being sick. Is it the case that a woman who gets pregnant in a cycle, i.e. gets pregnant, goes on maternity leave and is pregnant coming back (not saying the OP does this), can be out sick regularly throughout her pregnancies and not get sacked but a woman who is not pregnant but suffers from a long-term illness can get sacked?

tatli_lokma

blondie990 wrote: »

I could be wrong, but I think this increased to 6 days in the Budget. Anybody able to confirm that?

This takes effect in January - for the moment the 3 days still stands, although you are correct, as from Jan 2014 the the first 6 days of illness don't qualify (but AFAIK the 6 days is based on the social welfare 6 day week, so it is 6 calendar days and not 6 business days if you get me).

Neyite

blondie990 wrote: »

But a pregnancy related illness can be avoided by not getting pregnant? For example, if someone has a long-term illness that they were born with there's not much they can do to avoid being sick. Is it the case that a woman who gets pregnant in a cycle, i.e. gets pregnant, goes on maternity leave and is pregnant coming back (not saying the OP does this), can be out sick regularly throughout her pregnancies and not get sacked but a woman who is not pregnant but suffers from a long-term illness can get sacked?

I never had a single day of nausea or pain during pregnancy. But until you are pregnant, you have no idea if you'd have a pregnancy like mine, or one where you are so sick you are intermittently hospitalised to get IV fluids. I and many others I know didn't have to take a single sick day during pregnancy. I actually don't know anyone who took loads of sick days during pregnancy. Yet my colleagues took plenty of sickies during that time.

In your example, someone who has a lifelong career and is out sick will have far more sick days during a 40-50 year career span than a woman who was pregnant for less than a couple of years in total and might have had to take a few days off during that period.

blondie990

Neyite wrote: »

I never had a single day of nausea or pain during pregnancy. But until you are pregnant, you have no idea if you'd have a pregnancy like mine, or one where you are so sick you are intermittently hospitalised to get IV fluids. I and many others I know didn't have to take a single sick day during pregnancy. I actually don't know anyone who took loads of sick days during pregnancy. Yet my colleagues took plenty of sickies during that time.

In your example, someone who has a lifelong career and is out sick will have far more sick days during a 40-50 year career span than a woman who was pregnant for less than a couple of years in total and might have had to take a few days off during that period.

That's why I specifically mentioned women who get pregnant in a cycle, which is something I have seen happen in every single place I have worked in my whole life.
Also, the OP said that this is her second pregnancy so she was aware of this problem before she got pregnant the second time.

That still doesn't answer my question though. It just doesn't seem fair to me that because you are pregnant you can take limitless sick days but if you're not pregnant and have been born with some illness or other, you can be sacked.

wmpdd3

Thankfuly we and most countries where the majority of women work outside of the home have this:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1994/en/act/pub/0034/print.html

MATERNITY PROTECTION ACT, 1994

It is very difficult to let someone go who contracts an illness during their employment and subsequently cannot complete their employment. It only really applies to people who have no hope of recovering in the near future.

Can we ban people from playing sports because they were off for 6 weeks last year when they broke their leg?

blondie990

wmpdd3 wrote: »

Thankfuly we and most countries where the majority of women work outside of the home have this:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1994/en/act/pub/0034/print.html

MATERNITY PROTECTION ACT, 1994

It is very difficult to let someone go who contracts an illness during their employment and subsequently cannot complete their employment. It only really applies to people who have no hope of recovering in the near future.

Can we ban people from playing sports because they were off for 6 weeks last year when they broke their leg?

That doesn't make any sense. According to this thread, if a person were out for 6 weeks and continued in his/her employment and kept breaking their leg they could just be sacked for not being in work but if a person were out for 6 weeks due to a pregnancy related illness and continued to get pregnant and be out for the same length of time during each pregnancy then they couldn't be sacked?

Mrs OBumble

blondie990 wrote: »

That doesn't make any sense. According to this thread, if a person were out for 6 weeks and continued in his/her employment and kept breaking their leg they could just be sacked for not being in work but if a person were out for 6 weeks due to a pregnancy related illness and continued to get pregnant and be out for the same length of time during each pregnancy then they couldn't be sacked?

That is correct. The same thing applies to disabilities: If a person is out sick a lot and the sickness is due to their disability, then they cannot be sacked for that so long as the employer can make reasonable accommodations. But if a person just naturally gets sick a lot but does not have a condition that counts as a disability, they have no such protection.


And I tend to agree that it's unfair. But the other opiton is to be able to sack people just because they have a preganacy-related condition. And on balanace, most politicans seem to think that is worse.

Neyite

blondie990 wrote: »

That's why I specifically mentioned women who get pregnant in a cycle, which is something I have seen happen in every single place I have worked in my whole life.
Also, the OP said that this is her second pregnancy so she was aware of this problem before she got pregnant the second time.

That still doesn't answer my question though. It just doesn't seem fair to me that because you are pregnant you can take limitless sick days but if you're not pregnant and have been born with some illness or other, you can be sacked.

I dont understand what you mean by getting pregnant in a cycle. All pregnant women conceive in a cycle. Unless you mean that she gets pregnant on her maternity leave?

But if you are suggesting that women be discriminated towards on their second pregnancies, then that will discourage second pregnancies. Which leaves YOUR old-age pension in a bit of trouble when the birth rate drops. Or we could just do what China does and enforce a one-child policy?

You cannot take limitless sick days off while pregnant. By design, the limit is 38 weeks because you give birth. And its only due to pregnancy-related illness. So the maximum that an employer has to put up with it is 38 weeks.

It seems like your perception is skewed by a few piss-takers that you worked with. I on the other hand, have had the opposite experience in that any pregnant woman I worked with never took a single sick day, never tried to change pr shirk their duties, tried to schedule ante-natal appointments for early morning or out of hours. They (and I ) worked right up until our maternity leave kicked in - in my case I worked several nights until 2am on a tight deadline at 37 weeks with the team. Dont tar all mothers and mothers-to-be with the same brush.

mitosis

OP, you hold all the cards here. Meet with your employer and explain your position clearly and, if necessary, where he stands legally.

But this is why I will not employ a person who might get pregnant. In this situation I have to hold a person's job while they are absent, let face it, due to a lifestyle choice, while I employ and train another person to do their job. As an employer it is all loss for me.

blondie990

Neyite wrote: »

I dont understand what you mean by getting pregnant in a cycle. All pregnant women conceive in a cycle. Unless you mean that she gets pregnant on her maternity leave?

But if you are suggesting that women be discriminated towards on their second pregnancies, then that will discourage second pregnancies. Which leaves YOUR old-age pension in a bit of trouble when the birth rate drops. Or we could just do what China does and enforce a one-child policy?

You cannot take limitless sick days off while pregnant. By design, the limit is 38 weeks because you give birth. And its only due to pregnancy-related illness. So the maximum that an employer has to put up with it is 38 weeks.

It seems like your perception is skewed by a few piss-takers that you worked with. I on the other hand, have had the opposite experience in that any pregnant woman I worked with never took a single sick day, never tried to change pr shirk their duties, tried to schedule ante-natal appointments for early morning or out of hours. They (and I ) worked right up until our maternity leave kicked in - in my case I worked several nights until 2am on a tight deadline at 37 weeks with the team. Dont tar all mothers and mothers-to-be with the same brush.

Yes, as I said already, I mean wonen who get pregnant on maternity leave repeatedly.

You know what I mean when I say "limitless", I mean limitless within the confines of the length of the pregnancy. The maximum in that situation isn't 38 weeks, it could be 38 weeks x 4/5 pregnancies, all the while the employer is forced to continue to employ this person by law.

I have also worked with women who have never taken sick days while pregnant etc etc but this thread isn't about those kind of women.

tatli_lokma

Realistically how many women get pregnant over and over while still on maternity leave? I have known of a few who got pregnant with number 2 whilst on maternity leave, but they still would have returned to work for at least a few months before going on their next maternity leave. The suggestion of gangs of women having 3/4/5 babies back to back, getting pregnant each time while still on maternity is ridiculous to be honest. And the practicalities of it mean it would very rarely if ever happen - because working life is such that once you have your baby/babies juggling a long term career and children is not easy so the majority of working women have 2/3 children and opt for flexible working arrangement when they can, and by doing so limit their chances of career progression.

I have worked since I was 15 and have never seen a woman take 3 cycles or more of maternity leave as you describe. It's just not something that happens very often at all.

blondie990

tatli_lokma wrote: »

Realistically how many women get pregnant over and over while still on maternity leave? I have known of a few who got pregnant with number 2 whilst on maternity leave, but they still would have returned to work for at least a few months before going on their next maternity leave. The suggestion of gangs of women having 3/4/5 babies back to back, getting pregnant each time while still on maternity is ridiculous to be honest. And the practicalities of it mean it would very rarely if ever happen - because working life is such that once you have your baby/babies juggling a long term career and children is not easy so the majority of working women have 2/3 children and opt for flexible working arrangement when they can, and by doing so limit their chances of career progression.

I have worked since I was 15 and have never seen a woman take 3 cycles or more of maternity leave as you describe. It's just not something that happens very often at all.

I'll give you 2 very quick examples from my own experience.

I worked in a very large office where there was a HR department with 3 members of senior staff and 1 secretary. During my time working there, each of the 3 members of staff had 3 children each and somehow managed to work their maternity leave and pregnancies around each other - very strange, maybe it was just coincidence. There was always one of them on maternity leave, one just back from maternity leave and one pregnant.

Second example is from my last job. One of the women I worked with got pregnant. She had a complicated pregnancy and spent the last 4 months out of the office, this left everybody else picking up a substantial workload. She returned to work, half days only and within a few months was pregnant again, having never returned to a full day's work. She got pregnant again asap knowing that the complications that affected her in her first pregnancy would affect her in her second pregnancy, and the complications were worse during her second pregnancy and she missed even more time from work. She is now pregnant again. All the while, her employer is forced to continue to employ her.

Anyway, chatting about it here won't make a difference to the law as it stands.
It just doesn't seem fair to those who do not have children and can be sacked for being out sick through no fault of their own in unavoidable circumstances.

sillysmiles

It also doesn't seem fair that you seem to have an issue with women getting pregnant. There is more to life that just working and it is important to have a balance and have a family if that is what you want.
These things would be way easier if men and women could take turns being pregnant!

blondie990

sillysmiles wrote: »

It also doesn't seem fair that you seem to have an issue with women getting pregnant. There is more to life that just working and it is important to have a balance and have a family if that is what you want.
These things would be way easier if men and women could take turns being pregnant!

No issue with women getting pregnant, none at all. Don't know where you picked that up from. This thread is about women being out on extended sick leave while pregnant and employers being forced by law to let them continue in their employment compared to someone that isn't pregnant, that's what I have an issue with.

Stheno

blondie990 wrote: »

No issue with women getting pregnant, none at all. Don't know where you picked that up from. This thread is about women being out on extended sick leave while pregnant and employers being forced by law to let them continue in their employment compared to someone that isn't pregnant, that's what I have an issue with.

Employers have to do the same for someone with a disability

Employers don't have to pay women who are either out on pregnancy related illnesses or on maternity leave, they simply have to keep the job open for the employee to return to

tatli_lokma

I think you may have a very different take on it if it were you that wanted a family and was unfortunate enough to have difficult pregnancies. In the two examples you cite, were all the women good and productive workers when they were at work? That is the main issue, because even if you are pregnant if you don't do your job you can be sacked. It is usually wise and less hassle to wait until maternity leave has ended but make no mistake you can get rid of someone who is not a good worker you just have to be cleaver about it.

For the majority of cases women don't misuse maternity leave rights and continue to contribute positively to their workplace. On the other hand once the children arrive, many women find it difficult to continue working because of lack of flexible working arrangements. I also have no doubt that there are employers who are still vindictive and begrudging of women who utilise their maternity rights and as soon as they get a chance sack them upon their return.

Being a worker with a functioning uterus does not mean you are not a worthwhile team member. Anyone who begrudges a woman their maternity leave is short sighted as they could well be missing out on a loyal and hardworking employee.

Of course there are lazy workers who were always lazy who play the dying swan and act like they are the first woman to ever have a baby, but then the question is why did you keep them in the first place? You should have sorted that problem before pregnancy was part of the equation!

blondie990

Stheno wrote: »

Employers have to do the same for someone with a disability

Employers don't have to pay women who are either out on pregnancy related illnesses or on maternity leave, they simply have to keep the job open for the employee to return to

In my opinion there is a big difference between someone with a disability and someone who is pregnant. You don't choose to have a disability but you do choose to get pregnant.

Eoin

@blondie990, this a thread in the "work problems" forum where the OP wants some help on how to resolve their specific issue and what legal rights she has. It's not a general discussion thread about pregnancy in the workplace. Please try and keep your posts constructive.

Victor

tatli_lokma wrote: »

No obligation to pay for any sick days, regardless of their cause or duration. The employer paying for any sick days at all is a perk that many employers do not give. All she would be entitled to is her illness benefit from social welfare, but to get this she would have to be out sick for at least 3 days at a time because the first 3 days of each illness are not covered by illness benefit, so this realistically will only work if she is out for a week at a time. A day or two here or there won't get her any benefit.

Depending on the situation, they might only count the 3/6 days once.

blondie990 wrote: »

That still doesn't answer my question though. It just doesn't seem fair to me that because you are pregnant you can take limitless sick days but if you're not pregnant and have been born with some illness or other, you can be sacked.

And getting fired because you are pregnant is fair?

But we are getting off-topic here.

Junglewoman

tatli_lokma wrote: »

No obligation to pay for any sick days, regardless of their cause or duration. The employer paying for any sick days at all is a perk that many employers do not give. All she would be entitled to is her illness benefit from social welfare, but to get this she would have to be out sick for at least 3 days at a time because the first 3 days of each illness are not covered by illness benefit, so this realistically will only work if she is out for a week at a time. A day or two here or there won't get her any benefit.

If you work weekends and you are sick on a Sunday this is not counted. If Sunday is your 1st sick day you have to wait 4 days before any benefit is received...unless this was changed lately.

Tadgh1087

Big Mouth wrote: »

To be fair I would have some sympathy for your boss here......its not his fault your pregnant again and its not his fault you have such terrible pregnancies and you do mention you're quick enough to take the maternity benefit your boss has to pay so there has to be some perspective.

Added to that he is looking for a person who knows the job (by covering your previous maternity leave) and is worried that person will take other employment.

Don't forget most companies are really struggling right now to pay the bills!

Big Mouth by name and big mouth by nature. You want pregnancy to become illegal eventually I suppose. As a man I take offence at your attitude to women's rights.

Eoin

This is not helpful to the OP.

_Kaiser_

To be fair OP, I'm sorry that you're going through such a difficult pregnancy and I genuinely hope that all will be ok for both you and the baby.

However, I can see your boss's point too. He needs your job done, and if you're not in a position to do it, then alternative arrangements do need to be made - that's not saying that you should (be forced to) quit or whatever , just that I can see it from his side too.

You were also aware from your first pregnancy that this difficulty was likely to happen so I'm guessing your boss has also been through this with you and knows what to expect as well - hence him asking what you want to do. I wasn't there so I can't say if he was actually intimidating you or just trying to reach an agreement before this other employee goes elsewhere.

I'd suggest sitting down with your boss in a calm and constructive meeting and trying to agree how you're both going to manage to ensure that you get the support/time off you need, but that he isn't left in the lurch either.

micosoft

Big Mouth wrote: »

There you go, that's the spirit! :rolleyes:

Actually, it's a fair point. If the manager (sounds like an owner managed small business) is intent on making her life an absolute misery she needs to think through her options. Pregnancy is hard enough without that sort of pressure. Get a good solicitor to skilfully and with evidence constructively dismiss her and she can have financial security and a stress free pregnancy. It is an option, and my sympathy (as an employer in an SME) with the employer is limited in this situation.

ted1

OP,

could you not just take time off as being Sick, you sound genuinely Ill and if you are missing days here and there it's not really fair on your employer.

A doctor should give you a sick cert which will carry you to your maternity leave, then he can arrange for someone to cover you now and when your on ML. then you return back to work afterwards as normal.

from an employer point of view it is very hard to operate with staff who are not reliable (i fully understand the reason, but the bottom line is he can't be guaranteed that your work will be done)