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Deloitte to advise on liquidation or examinership of Dublin Bus

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    #92
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users Posts: 9,776 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    possibly, but then it could get to the stage where only a couple of operators operate the services as it could become unsustainable for the rest meaning any benefits of having lots of operators because of high subsidies goes out the window, of course it could also end up that even if multiple operators come in that the competing could be small and that the subsidies go up more.

    If that really did happen, then the CIE companies, wily and efficient White Knights of the Exchequer that they are, would swing into action to take back these super-profits and return them to the taxpayer.


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    #93
    lucernarian
    Registered Users Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    I don't particularly like the NTA either, there is no reason for them to exist. It's just yet another quango doing the a job the DofT is supposed to be doing and duplicating all the costs and expenses by being seperate.
    I think it's understandable that people would be skeptical of the NTA (and without being CIE employees :eek:) after the mess that was the ODTR/Comreg. Another body that took over some of the functions of a government dept. with an added regulatory aspect and which mainly dealt with (when it was founded) a massive semi-state incumbent. There are crucial differences between the NTA and the ODTR but there are still going to be inefficiencies when the NTA is set up as a separate agency instead of the DoT managing it all directly.


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    #94
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    If that really did happen, then the CIE companies, wily and efficient White Knights of the Exchequer that they are, would swing into action to take back these super-profits and return them to the taxpayer.

    There won't be a CIE when that happens though?

    We will only have an NTA who will be beholden to the operators or operator and what price they want for delivering a contract.That is the international experience that the cost of tenders rise and the number of tendees decreases over time and the cost rises above the costs of the old state operator.


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    #95
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users Posts: 9,776 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    Honestly, inefficiency as a result of the DoT/NTA split doesn't come into it. The DoT was utterly shambolic and directionless. No one will deny this. NTA has many serious problems and shortcomings but it it is a massive improvement over the old situation.


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    #96
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users Posts: 9,776 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    cdebru wrote: »
    There won't be a CIE when that happens though?

    Why not?
    We will only have an NTA who will be beholden to the operators or operator and what price they want for delivering a contract.That is the international experience that the cost of tenders rise and the number of tendees decreases over time and the cost rises above the costs of the old state operator.

    Can you name even 20 cities where this has happened and provide some documentation?


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    #97
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    I don't particularly like the NTA either, there is no reason for them to exist. It's just yet another quango doing the job the DofT is supposed to be doing and duplicating all the costs and expenses by being seperate.

    The problem with the NTA model is that they have already shown what their solution is when fare box revenues don't meet the difference between operating costs and the subvention. That is cut services and massively increase fares.
    At the end of the day the NTA is just another state body, anyone under the illusion that the NTA will protect the travelling public is in for a nasty shock.
    The NTA can no more stand up to government than CIE when it comes to government funding or free travel schemes etc.
    The NTA is really going to run into problems when they take the reins as regards controlling revenues and paying the bills. When the government does the same to them as it does to CIE and cuts subventions where do you think the NTA is going to make up the shortfall ? Its contractors will still have to be paid even if passenger numbers are falling, it is not their problem it is the NTAs problem.


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    #98
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,584 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Frankly reading some of the posts here, the sort of negativity expressed about the NTA and *potentially* what might go wrong is what sums all that is wrong in this country.

    For all that negativity there is every chance that they could get things right and deliver real improvements.

    Look at some of what has happened so far:

    * Much improved bus licence approval process with very clear guidelines regarding competition
    * National journey planner rolled out
    * RTPI rolled out for CIE and being rolled out to other operators
    * Fare determinations with full rationale being published for all changes
    * Recast networks in Cork, Limerick, Galway, Waterford and the South East region, incorporating private operators where applicable
    * First step in providing integrated bus and rail services on a corridor (Dublin-Mullingar)
    * Full consultative process on any major transport proposals
    * Draft BRT proposals

    I find it rather sad that people think that an organisation that has delivered that many positive things so far could be a bad thing. I also think that anyone who imagines that civil servants in the DoT could ever do this is living in cloud cuckoo land. It needs transport professionals.


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    #99
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    Honestly, inefficiency as a result of the DoT/NTA split doesn't come into it. The DoT was utterly shambolic and directionless. No one will deny this. NTA has many serious problems and shortcomings but it it is a massive improvement over the old situation.

    I agree, but the problem remains that the DoT are still the boys with the control of the purse strings and the NTA will be a buffer between the mandarins in the DoT and the contractors.
    Something similar to the HSE, the department of health is responsible for nothing everything is the HSEs fault or responsibility they just say you are getting 666 million less make it work.


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    #100
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users Posts: 9,776 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    cdebru wrote: »
    The NTA can no more stand up to government than CIE when it comes to government funding or free travel schemes etc.

    What do you expect them to do? Stage a coup? The NTA is subject to our democratic and political system.

    When the government does the same to them as it does to CIE and cuts subventions where do you think the NTA is going to make up the shortfall ? Its contractors will still have to be paid even if passenger numbers are falling, it is not their problem it is the NTAs problem.

    Why would passenger numbers fall? If the NTA run the thing any way half right they will grow from the current nadir.


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    #101
    Grandeeod
    Registered Users Posts: 12,114 ✭✭✭✭Grandeeod


    Massive Save CIE thing going on here and I really dont know why. What is the boardsies fascination with CIE while the general public want rid of it?

    Source?

    I'm not sure boards has the space for the reasons. CIE needs to be removed from transport of any kind in Ireland. Its culture. Its history. Everything. Then we can move forward.


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    #102
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,998 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Grandeeod wrote: »
    Massive Save CIE thing going on here and I really dont know why. What is the boardsies fascination with CIE while the general public want rid of it?

    Source?

    I'm not sure boards has the space for the reasons. CIE needs to be removed from transport of any kind in Ireland. Its culture. Its history. Everything. Then we can move forward.
    and then IE DB and BE can stay and be reformed

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #103
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,479 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    lxflyer wrote: »
    I also think that anyone who imagines that civil servants in the DoT could ever do this is living in cloud cuckoo land. It needs transport professionals.

    And is the department incapable of hiring such people?
    I don't think they could manage it now as it stands but why even seperate it out in the first place and duplicate all the expenses. There's plenty of other quangos that have been pulled out of the DofT over the years, all with their own duplicated costs. Its an expensive way to run things rather than having internal divisions under one DofT brand.


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    #104
    n97 mini
    Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    lxflyer wrote: »
    For all that negativity there is every chance that they could get things right and deliver real improvements.

    Look at some of what has happened so far:
    I think that your list is a bit blinkered. What has happened for me in reality is that services have worsened, and in other cases projects listed haven't been completed:

    * National journey planner rolled out <- Improving but still not trustworthy
    * RTPI rolled out for CIE and being rolled out to other operators <- CIE? BE part is a disaster
    * First step in providing integrated bus and rail services on a corridor (Dublin-Mullingar) <- Integration? Non-competing more like? My town has been removed from the BE network in the process :mad:
    * Full consultative process on any major transport proposals


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    #105
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,584 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    And is the department incapable of hiring such people?
    I don't think they could manage it now as it stands but why even seperate it out in the first place and duplicate all the expenses. There's plenty of other quangos that have been pulled out of the DofT over the years, all with their own duplicated costs. Its an expensive way to run things rather than having internal divisions under one DofT brand.

    Frankly, history has shown that the civil service (both here and abroad) are incapable of running these things in a commercially realistic manner.

    It just doesn't work - full stop.


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    #106
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,584 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    n97 mini wrote: »
    I think that your list is a bit blinkered. What has happened for me in reality is that services have worsened, and in other cases projects listed haven't been completed:

    * National journey planner rolled out <- Improving but still not trustworthy
    * RTPI rolled out for CIE and being rolled out to other operators <- CIE? BE part is a disaster
    * First step in providing integrated bus and rail services on a corridor (Dublin-Mullingar) <- Integration? Non-competing more like? My town has been removed from the BE network in the process :mad:
    * Full consultative process on any major transport proposals

    I'd certainly view both the journey planner and RTPI as works in progress. They're a start and a step in the right direction.

    The bus services on Dublin/Mullingar that were altered were the PSO funded services. Why shouldn't services that are being paid for by the state not be integrated (bus and rail)?

    The commercial expressway services on the route (routes 22/23) remain unchanged.

    As for Leixlip being removed from the Bus Eireann network - there were two services a day via Leixlip Village - hardly earth shattering - I can't imagine that there were huge numbers using it at that stop. Clearly there weren't as it has been re-routed.


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    #107
    n97 mini
    Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    lxflyer wrote: »
    As for Leixlip being removed from the Bus Eireann network - there were two services a day via Leixlip Village - hardly earth shattering - I can't imagine that there were huge numbers using it at that stop. Clearly there weren't as it has been re-routed.
    The service that existed was a bit of a sham and quite awkward to use, due to scheduling and pick/drop-off only. Instead of removing it they could have improved it to something along the lines of the 120/123 and Celbridge.


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