Sanded Fairways - Should course be open for green fees?

josie19

Just putting this out there for peoples view on this.

I played a well known course last week with 3 others. I phoned in advance of the booking to enquire about the state of the greens to see if they had recently been pole forked. I was told that they were done in August and were now back in good order. I made a booking for a 4 ball and arrived at the course only to be told that the fairways were in the process of being sanded that day and that I could lift, clean and place my ball.

I have played many courses that have been sanded at this time of year but the amount of sand on the fairways was extraordinary. It was impossible to play a proper golf shot as the grass was hardly visible due to the amount of sand spread.

We were all very disappointed with our round and the condition of the course. I decided that I would write an email to the club concerned and voice my disatisfaction. Here is the response I got (edited for anonimity):

Dear xx

Thank you for your email which was passed to me to this morning.
I am very sorry to hear that your first visit to xxx was disappointing for both you and your friends.
xxx Golf Club takes great pride in the manner which our hard working course staff look after our course throughout the year.
Sanding the fairways is an essential part of our maintenance programe so that our members and visitors can enjoy playing golf through the winter months.
I hope your next visit to xxx will be more enjoyable.


Regards,

xxxxx
Honorary Secretary xxxxx Golf Club

I wrote a follow up email expressing my disappointment at their response, and suggested that a more appropriate way to deal with the situation would be to invite us back at no cost at some other time when the course was in better condition. They have chosen to ignore that email.

I thought the last line of his email was a bit presumptuous. I'm not likely to return after that treatment.

What's your view?

slave1

I played Headfort New on Monday, the fairways were already sanded and we had to clean and place as the ball was covered in sand, worst was they were in the process of oversanding the greens as we were playing our round, in fairness it was the lightest of sand but it made putting a nightmare, when I booked the round they never mentioned it, given the weather was so good I just got on with it and didn't let it ruin the day.
On the other hand when I was booking to play Tulfarris last month they told me about the sanding so I simply changed the date to play before the sanding.

Shame it was of a level it ruined your round, a good club should have let you known about it upon booking and I think a return voucher would have been an easy apology and end of the matter.

John Divney

slave1 wrote: »

I played Headfort New on Monday, the fairways were already sanded and we had to clean and place as the ball was covered in sand, worst was they were in the process of oversanding the greens as we were playing our round, in fairness it was the lightest of sand but it made putting a nightmare, when I booked the round they never mentioned it, given the weather was so good I just got on with it and didn't let it ruin the day.
On the other hand when I was booking to play Tulfarris last month they told me about the sanding so I simply changed the date to play before the sanding.

Shame it was of a level it ruined your round, a good club should have let you known about it upon booking and I think a return voucher would have been an easy apology and end of the matter.

I played Headfort new month or so ago, was in the clubhouse eating, and saw they truck the use to sand (they were sanding the old course)

It was a monster, big truck rolling up the fairways spraying sand all over the fairway from one position, amazing machine.

I stood up to try and see the look on the lads on the tee box's faces, while I enjoyed my onion rings.

DuckSlice

What response were you expecting? I'm sure if you said after playing just one hole or something, they would have rearranged your round no problem. The fact you carried on and played your round, for me, means that you shouldn't get a complimentary round of golf.
Was it obvious from the first hole?

I don't think any club should be turning away green fees for essential maintenance.

realgolfgeek

etxp wrote: »

I don't think any club should be turning away green fees for essential maintenance.

Absolutely, but they should at least have the courtesy to tell you it's not going to be in the best of shape, plus give a discount when booking it or turning up for your round.

DuckSlice

realgolfgeek wrote: »

Absolutely, but they should at least have the courtesy to tell you it's not going to be in the best of shape, plus give a discount when booking it or turning up for your round.

Agreed, but if you play a full round and don't complain on the day I don't think you deserve a free round of golf.

realgolfgeek

etxp wrote: »

Agreed, but if you play a full round and don't complain on the day I don't think you deserve a free round of golf.

Nope, neither do I.
In saying that, I think the club didn't respond very well either.
I think they could have given a good will gesture, 4 ball for the price of 2 for example. Only if the OP stated in his original e-mail that he had asked the pro shop specifically if the course was in good condition when booking.

JOSman

I think the OP is right.

My own club sanded recently and I didn't enjoy the round. Said to the guys I was playing with "hope they're not charging full green fees for this".

He should have been told or in the case he wasn't told, have been offered a very reduced green fee for his next round.

A good will gesture would have been nice.

josie19

etxp wrote: »

What response were you expecting? I'm sure if you said after playing just one hole or something, they would have rearranged your round no problem. The fact you carried on and played your round, for me, means that you shouldn't get a complimentary round of golf.
Was it obvious from the first hole?

I don't think any club should be turning away green fees for essential maintenance.

To be invited back to play when the course was in better condition. It was obvious that it was sanded from the first fairway but the amount of sand increased after the 2nd hole. We drove 30 miles and took time off work - rearranging not really an option. I didn't suggest they should turn away green fees but they have an obligation to be up front about the condition of the course. I had phoned and enquired about the greens so they had ample opportunity to advise about sanding.

BTW I work in the hospitality sector and we do everything we can to make right dissatisfaction a customer may have (perceived or not).

josie19

etxp wrote: »

Agreed, but if you play a full round and don't complain on the day I don't think you deserve a free round of golf.

I don't think it's relevant whether the complaint was made on the day or next day by email. There was no disputing the fact that the fairways were heavily sanded. As it happens the office was closed when we finished our round

Senecio

Played Headfort new myself on Saturday. Same treatment. Course maintenance is necessary, we all know that. But to not tell people at the time of booking is poor form. I would have booked somewhere else and come back when the course was in better shape. Won't be going back at all now. Pity because it's a great layout.

searay

In Spain the clubs notify booking agencies in advance of sanding and hollow tining so that golfers play other courses. Some agencies won't book visitors onto the course until 2 weeks after it's complete.

We were booked onto a course in error that had been spiked and when we turned up they offered to let us play for 1/2 price or cancel the booking without charge. We looked at the greens and decided to cancel. The club rang other courses to make a booking for us.

We were only there for 3 days and the clubs treatment left us with a good impression of the region and that our custom was valued.

Clubs need to recognise the long term value of green fees and treat visitors fairly.

josie19

Senecio wrote: »

Played Headfort new myself on Saturday. Same treatment. Course maintenance is necessary, we all know that. But to not tell people at the time of booking is poor form. I would have booked somewhere else and come back when the course was in better shape. Won't be going back at all now. Pity because it's a great layout.

Wasn't going to say but it was Headfort New last Thursday and I agree it was a fantastic layout but I won't be back. Customer service MA

Senecio

josie19 wrote: »

Wasn't going to say but it was Headfort New last Thursday and I agree it was a fantastic layout but I won't be back. Customer service MA

No reason not to name them, nothing in this thread but fact. A fact, that the club made a conscious decision to withhold at time of booking from you, me and countless others. In their greed to get a green fee from us they've lost many return customers.

DuckSlice

josie19 wrote: »

I don't think it's relevant whether the complaint was made on the day or next day by email. There was no disputing the fact that the fairways were heavily sanded. As it happens the office was closed when we finished our round

But if you were that dissatisfied with the fairways why carry on? why play the full round? this is what i cant get my head around. im not disputing that they should have told you, they should have and there is no question about that. But why would you pay to use something, and very early on in your round you are dissatisfied with the condition and still carry on and play, it must have effected your game. you wouldnt complain about a meal after you had finished it completely and ask not to pay would you?
yes the could have invited you back to play maybe at half price or something or with a free meal maybe. but imo, and its only my opinion and not a go at you or anything, if i was them and received your second email, i would immeaditely think this fella is just chancing his arm for a free round of golf here and i too would ignore it.

josie19

etxp wrote: »

But if you were that dissatisfied with the fairways why carry on? why play the full round? this is what i cant get my head around. im not disputing that they should have told you, they should have and there is no question about that. But why would you pay to use something, and very early on in your round you are dissatisfied with the condition and still carry on and play, it must have effected your game. you wouldnt complain about a meal after you had finished it completely and ask not to pay would you?
yes the could have invited you back to play maybe at half price or something or with a free meal maybe. but imo, and its only my opinion and not a go at you or anything, if i was them and received your second email, i would immeaditely think this fella is just chancing his arm for a free round of golf here and i too would ignore it.

I've already said we travelled 30 miles, took time off work. One of the guys was a work colleague of a friend who I hadn't met before. I think it might have sounded like throwing the toys out of the pram if I decided to go home after a hole or 2.

Sometimes in life you try to make the best of a situation. It doesn't stop you being disappointed even though you made the effort.

Sorry if you can't get your head around it but I've never walked off a golf course after 1 or 2 holes.

DuckSlice

josie19 wrote: »

I've already said we travelled 30 miles, took time off work. One of the guys was a work colleague of a friend who I hadn't met before. I think it might have sounded like throwing the toys out of the pram if I decided to go home after a hole or 2.

Sometimes in life you try to make the best of a situation. It doesn't stop you being disappointed even though you made the effort.

Sorry if you can't get your head around it but I've never walked off a golf course after 1 or 2 holes.

Fair enough if you didnt know one of them could understand you not wanting to make a bad impression and so on. ive never walked off a golf course after 2 holes either. ive never actually played a course with sanded fairways either.

slave1

Same here, had traveled and hour and a half to play both Headfort courses on the same day so stopping the round after a few holes just not an option given the plans in play, thankfully Headfort Old was in perfect nick so all in all a good days golf.

josie19

slave1 wrote: »

Same here, had traveled and hour and a half to play both Headfort courses on the same day so stopping the round after a few holes just not an option given the plans in play, thankfully Headfort Old was in perfect nick so all in all a good days golf.

What condition was Headfort New in ? Were you there recently?

slave1

josie19 wrote: »

What condition was Headfort New in ? Were you there recently?

Read above, fairways sanded, you'd need to clean your ball, greens over sanded on Monday of this week but was the finest of sand, I'd say it will disappear fairly quickly given the rain yesterday.

For Paws

Given that
(a) Green Fee players are sometimes potential Members, and that
(b) Green Fee players are paying substantially more per round than Members are,

Clubs owe a greater duty of care to their Green Fee customers than to their members. It was irresponsible of the Club not to inform G/F inquiries about anything that would substantially affect the G/F enjoying their day there. If, for example, the Club restaurant was closed for maintenance on the day, would the Pro shop inform G/Fs ?.

On one occasion years ago, we took advantage of a reduced G/F offer to play the K Club. Before going to the 1st tee the Pro shop informed us that no play from the fairways was allowed - free drop in a mown (mowed to light rough height, not fairway) strip in the rough was mandatory.

Took money back, packed up & played another local course instead, where 'full' G/Fee were still cheaper than Krap Club.

realgolfgeek

For Paws wrote: »

Clubs owe a greater duty of care to their Green Fee customers than to their members

Totally disagree with this, there should be no more favouritsm given to a green fee than a member.

Maxmillian

Played a society round on Headfort New last w/end. Informed the office afterwards that the fairways were "over" sanded and that we should have been told in advance. They reduced the cost by one green fee. Thought that was ok; but day was not enjoyed by all....

For Paws

realgolfgeek wrote: »

Totally disagree with this, there should be no more favouritsm given to a green fee than a member.

If a Club member pays, for example, €900 in Annual Sub & plays 30 rounds a year, it costs him €30 a round on average. Membership in that Club may also include access to facilities not available to the payer of a Green Fee.
How much do you reckon the Green Fee would cost at such a Club ?

If a Green Fee player is, on average, paying more (& getting less) than a Member then should not the Club treat him/her at least as well, if not better, than a Member ?

What's your opinion on my other point about Green Fee players being potential Members ?

realgolfgeek

For Paws wrote: »

If a Club member pays, for example, €900 in Annual Sub & plays 30 rounds a year, it costs him €30 a round on average. Membership in that Club may also include access to facilities not available to the payer of a Green Fee.
How much do you reckon the Green Fee would cost at such a Club ?

If a Green Fee player is, on average, paying more (& getting less) than a Member then should not the Club treat him/her at least as well, if not better, than a Member ?

What's your opinion on my other point about Green Fee players being potential Members ?

I guess this is my gripe. It's inexcusable that a green fee member should be getting less. Totally agree with this, but I don't think they should be treated any better either.
I didn't notice your comment on Green Fee players being potential members, but of course, the club would want to always leave a last impression and all that.

bustercherry

For Paws wrote: »

If a Club member pays, for example, €900 in Annual Sub & plays 30 rounds a year, it costs him €30 a round on average. Membership in that Club may also include access to facilities not available to the payer of a Green Fee.
How much do you reckon the Green Fee would cost at such a Club ?

If a Green Fee player is, on average, paying more (& getting less) than a Member then should not the Club treat him/her at least as well, if not better, than a Member ?

What's your opinion on my other point about Green Fee players being potential Members ?

If you are thinking of potentially joining a club (and they are accepting memnbers), then you won't pay a green fee. Ring the club and most are happy to oblige with a free round, tour etc... If they don't offer that at the very least, most people walk away.

PARlance

For Paws wrote: »

If a Club member pays, for example, €900 in Annual Sub & plays 30 rounds a year, it costs him €30 a round on average. Membership in that Club may also include access to facilities not available to the payer of a Green Fee.
How much do you reckon the Green Fee would cost at such a Club ?

If a Green Fee player is, on average, paying more (& getting less) than a Member then should not the Club treat him/her at least as well, if not better, than a Member ?

What's your opinion on my other point about Green Fee players being potential Members ?

If I was a green fee payer going to a club with the view to joining I'd be worried if they treated green fee players better than members.

Members pay less per round, but they are the main revenue stream for a club. Think the average model is 80% revenue from members.

Both members and visitors should be treated the same in terms of customer service. But members should be treated better in terms of preferential tee times and facilitates.
I'd want to see that when joining a club.

No excuses for bad customer service but I'd be worried if a club started using your logic of a cost per round basis.

josie19

Maxmillian wrote: »

Played a society round on Headfort New last w/end. Informed the office afterwards that the fairways were "over" sanded and that we should have been told in advance. They reduced the cost by one green fee. Thought that was ok; but day was not enjoyed by all....

Completely agree that they were over sanded. They reduced the cost by one green fee!! How many in your society?

GreeBo

realgolfgeek wrote: »

I guess this is my gripe. It's inexcusable that a green fee member should be getting less. Totally agree with this, but I don't think they should be treated any better either.
.

Then why would anyone become a member?

Without members you dont have clubs, you have businesses.

For Paws

ajcurry123 wrote: »

If I was a green fee payer going to a club with the view to joining I'd be worried if they treated green fee players better than members.

Members pay less per round, but they are the main revenue stream for a club. Think the average model is 80% revenue from members.

Both members and visitors should be treated the same in terms of customer service. But members should be treated better in terms of preferential tee times and facilitates.
I'd want to see that when joining a club.

No excuses for bad customer service but I'd be worried if a club started using your logic of a cost per round basis.

Point taken.
However I think it's fair to recognize that Green Fee income allows Membership Subs to be held at a lower level that it would otherwise be,
and accordingly treat G/Fees well.
My initial point was based around the OPs situation.
A member in that Club had every opportunity to become aware of the temporary condition of that course and to alter their playing schedule in line with that. A Green Fee, despite making direct inquiries, was not told of this condition and was therefore not treated as a member would be.

Btw, any Club who charges Green Fees more than what a Member would pay is implementing a 'cost per round basis'.
It's not 'my' logic, it's theirs'. I'm not advocating it, I'm simply commenting on the very common situation prevailing in Clubs.
Invented by them. Implemented by them.

realgolfgeek

GreeBo wrote: »

Then why would anyone become a member?

Without members you dont have clubs, you have businesses.

I don't follow you ?
I was saying they shouldn't be treated any less than a member.

Member or green fee guest .. Both should be treated with same respect and courtesy

GreeBo

realgolfgeek wrote: »

I don't follow you ?
I was saying they shouldn't be treated any less than a member.

Member or green fee guest .. Both should be treated with same respect and courtesy

you should get "more" for being a member imo. you have committed to the club.
everyone should be treated with respect and courtesy, but availability etc of the course should be swayed towards members.

it's the classic club sandwich argument.
the chicken is involved but the pig is committed.

realgolfgeek

GreeBo wrote: »

everyone should be treated with respect and courtesy, but availability etc of the course should be swayed towards members.
.

Ah, I gotcha,
Absolutely.

For Paws

GreeBo wrote: »

you should get "more" for being a member imo. you have committed to the club.
everyone should be treated with respect and courtesy, but availability etc of the course should be swayed towards members.

it's the classic club sandwich argument.
the chicken is involved but the pig is committed.

Membership normally involves rights, access to facilities, and priority use of Club facilities and course not available to green fee payers.
So members do get 'more'.

Green Fee payers were once treated as a kind of 'one day' member.
In more recent times they became restricted to one round of golf and reasonable access to Club facilities, ie; dressing rooms & restaurant / bar.

In order to make Club membership more attractive to potential members, restriction of access to all facilities and pitching the cost of a round of golf at a higher rate became the norm. This is reasonable, for as GreeBo has yet again pointed out, why else would people choose membership over paying green fees to play where and when they choose.
They choose value for money (a very 'business' like approach).
Oh yes, and of course 'committment' to the idea of the 'Club' is a vital component in their decision making.