Change or Not ?

FixdePitchmark

We will talk hypothetically for a second. It is sort of me below - but more general, as it is a situation many golfers are faced with after they go to a pro.

Say you are playing well, but inconsistent. You are shooting to your handicap say 1 in 4 rounds - you are a mid range handicapper (9-15). But happy to have the odd round in the mid 70s. No matter how much work or balls you hit, you hit a certain level, can't move on.

You go for a lesson and are told you have an over the top action, a reverse pivot , a poor position to hit ball from, poor release.

Basically , your posture is right, your grip is right. But your swing is all over the place. There is a radical change required. You will be basically very poor, for near a year with change.

But after all that , you are able to work with your flawed swing, you have timing and good hands to get away with it on shorter stuff. In other words, you've a way of scoring, you have a way of working with what you have.


Would you totally transform ?
Would you just stay as you are and be happy with the odd good round ?
Have you done a major change, how was it, how long, were you happy in end ?

So it is a choice many of us will face over the winter.

John Divney

For me ,Yes, change, and do it staight away. A reverse pivot and over the top swing are not parts of somebodys ';natural swing' they are just barriers to it.
Getting rid of the OTT will be beneficial for the whole swing. More hip action, better transition, thus better impact position.

But I would say no way is it a years bad golf, if you are playing to any degree with an OTT, and scoring, there is some decent going on somewhere, I don't see why making it easier to get good contact will mean a year out, the level will probably be the same after a few weeks of hard work.

I started back about two years ago, had no clue about my swing, decided to do it prperly, read a lot. online a lot, and drilled the nonsense out. Was cut 10 shots, by a year and a half. and I had never played golf to any standard before.

I also changed my release, thus the most imprtant part of the swing, a coupole of months ago to, it was not painful, and the results were better in weeks. (Because the roll type was wrong for me, just promoted flipping I was always fighting)

Someone with abillity (scoring with flaws) should not fear it. The media bang on way too much about it. We are not pros, changing swing is not going to make us worse as a rule, and amatuers should not eb scared into it by punidts on the tv.

I would say get a camera to do it, otherwise it's pissing in the wind.

realgolfgeek

If you want to improve, and get your handicap down, and play the best golf you can play, without a shadow of a doubt, go for it.

If you're happy with the way things stand, then stay as your are, but remember, you're not going to improve much if you have those flaws.

I think 1 year is a little OTT to be honest. OTT, see what I did there ? :P

Anyway, These changes need to be executed over and over again so it becomes second nature to you. No doubt you'll get worst before you get better, but that's part of it.
I remember going through my grip change and for about 2 weeks I couldn't kick a ball in front of me, it felt so wrong doing it the correct way !
But I know now that it's right, and I do it correctly without thinking about it, so I can now concentrate on other aspects of my swing.

I think people like the majority of us here who play quite regularly, play because they enjoy it, and have the urge to get better and better and shoot the lowest score possible. In order to do that, we need to start swinging better, which means hard work.

slingerz

with regards to swing, i dont believe that there is 1 right way to do it. all of the pros have different swings and some look crazy to me i.e. jim furyk. however it seems to be working for him as he's a pro and i'm a hacker! for me a swing is about what your comfortable with. i think with sufficent practice anyone can improve their handicap it just depends on the athletic aptitude as regards how much they can improve or how quickly it can happen

Keano

If your are happy just to get out with friends and have a laugh and your score doesn't bother you then no point changing. If you want to go out each and every tournament you play and try to win then you have to change. The guy who scores 45 once a year gets cut and then struggles but the lads who shoot consistently in the high 30's are getting guy constantly and can still play to new level.

Senecio

There's nothing fun about being inconsistent. I've played golf to a mid single figure handicap for most of my adult life. But I could shoot 74 one week followed by 88 the next. It was embarrassing if nothing else. Something had to change.

Decided to learn my swing, understand my flaws and I've worked hard to eliminate them. I'm playing much less golf than I used to due to work commitments, but I'll still shoot high 70's or low 80's every time I go out. I can tell you it's a lot more fun. And when I do have a day out I can feel confident that my swing will hold coming down the stretch to post the odd low one.

Go for it, you won't look back.

FixdePitchmark

Senecio wrote: »

There's nothing fun about being inconsistent. I've played golf to a mid single figure handicap for most of my adult life. But I could shoot 74 one week followed by 88 the next. It was embarrassing if nothing else. Something had to change.

Decided to learn my swing, understand my flaws and I've worked hard to eliminate them. I'm playing much less golf than I used to due to work commitments, but I'll still shoot high 70's or low 80's every time I go out. I can tell you it's a lot more fun. And when I do have a day out I can feel confident that my swing will hold coming down the stretch to post the odd low one.

Go for it, you won't look back.

Thanks - that sums up how I feel.

If somebody came out with me some days - the wouldn't believe I could shoot in low 80s - odd one in 70s, very inconsistent.

The funny thing is, I consider my weak part my short game - it is weak. But when my swing is having a bad day, I can hit them fat, wide right, duck hook, block. It is not even a flaw you can live with - because it is unpredictable.

So I think I'm going to go for it over the winter - some of my mates think I'm mad - a sort of a Harrington. I've been playing some of my best rounds and 9s over last year or so - even under par on the odd 9. I've won a few things. Only society stuff, but they think it is going well for me, but - we all know our own game best.

For Paws

Your original post seems to set out a choice between Change (practice/work/crap golf/ no fun) and 'Not' (continue in a 'ah sure isn't golf only fun anyway' manner).

Picture this ; it is now Oct 2014 and you've just played through another summer of hit & miss golf and on reflection you know that nothing about this is going to change.
Are you happy with that ?
Picture this ; it is now Oct 2015 and you've just played through another summer of hit & miss golf and on reflection you know that nothing about this is going to change.
Are you happy with that ?

etc, etc, etc ....

If you can live with knowing that you could improve your game, but won't, then don't change. If you think you'd like to have an improved game, change.

But ffs don't treat it as some sort of trial. ENJOY the lessons, enjoy the practice, enjoy the roller coaster scoring and your partner's head shaking.

Because if you don't want it, if you cant do it without enjoying it (most of the time) then don't do it - it will just ruin what little fun you get from the game.
But if you can see yourself in a years time having the same thoughts then
maybe it's time to take a shot a it.

FixdePitchmark

Good post For Paws,

Once I decide on doing something - I never give up. Good and bad trait.

I don't think I'd be happy living with the idea that I could improve and didn't. I think I would enjoy it. Sure you are getting to know more about the game. A bit more about yourself.

I'd like to be in the 70s 1/2 the time. To do that, if I'm being honest, I need to change. It just will be 7 steps backwards for a small step forward.

I'm being honest about it being a big change, I'm all hands arms timing.

Interesting to hear views, there are golfers who are all hands, timing - they learn to play that way and get to a great level.

There are some lads who never go to a pro at all. The play with a low hook. That is their golf.

spacecoyote

I'm in this exact boat & have decided I'm committed to making the changes.

Had a very sideways year. My scoring average has come down & the standard deviation of my scores is tighter than previous years but I feel like I haven't really progressed as a golfer.

If anything a hot run with the putter & solid performance inside 100 yrds has compensated for the flaws in my swing.

I know it's a tough winter ahead of me, but it should pay off when the scoring season kicks in next year

FixdePitchmark

spacecoyote wrote: »

I'm in this exact boat & have decided I'm committed to making the changes.

Had a very sideways year. My scoring average has come down & the standard deviation of my scores is tighter than previous years but I feel like I haven't really progressed as a golfer.

If anything a hot run with the putter & solid performance inside 100 yrds has compensated for the flaws in my swing.

I know it's a tough winter ahead of me, but it should pay off when the scoring season kicks in next year

Yes that is me Space.

But as other posters say in other threads, it would be easier to make that 100 yard in more hot, more often, you can take the big scores out with good choices.

I'm being the Devil's advocate there.

josie19

Getting consistent I believe is more to do with our mental attitude to the game. Once you can swing a club the improvement comes from belief. What's going on in your head for the 10 seconds before you strike the ball? Have you ever asked that question of a very low handicap golfer? Low handicap golfers visualise their shots EVERY time they set up to hit the ball. Mid handicappers do it SOMETIMES and high handicappers almost NEVER.

We get into mechanics of the swing far more than we need to. The brain has an incredible ability to make the necessary adjustments if it knows what's being asked of it. Visualisation is how we relate what is required to the brain.

Imagine a hurler thinking about his swing as he hits a 70 (65 in new money). He looks at the target and reacts to it.

spacecoyote

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Yes that is me Space.

But as other posters say in other threads, it would be easier to make that 100 yard in more hot, more often, you can take the big scores out with good choices.

I'm being the Devil's advocate there.

No, I agree with you. I think I've gotten to where I am from being a smarter golfer than I was in the past. I could probably tighten it up further by working on getting it closer when in the scoring zone but I'm not planning on neglecting that part of my game.

Whenever I'm at the range I'll always dedicate time to playing target golf at different targets from 40-100 yrds. The shorter stuff with me tends to slightly mask the flaws though.

I'm still young enough that I should have a lot of years of golf ahead of me. I don't want where I am now to be the peak as I know I can go a lot lower, and I know that I need to have a technically better swing to make that transition.

PARlance

josie19 wrote: »

Getting consistent I believe is more to do with our mental attitude to the game. Once you can swing a club the improvement comes from belief. What's going on in your head for the 10 seconds before you strike the ball? Have you ever asked that question of a very low handicap golfer? Low handicap golfers visualise their shots EVERY time they set up to hit the ball. Mid handicappers do it SOMETIMES and high handicappers almost NEVER.

We get into mechanics of the swing far more than we need to. The brain has an incredible ability to make the necessary adjustments if it knows what's being asked of it. Visualisation is how we relate what is required to the brain.

Imagine a hurler thinking about his swing as he hits a 70 (65 in new money). He looks at the target and reacts to it.

I'm not sure if it would apply as much to FixdeSwing as he is lower and playing longer.
But for me, this is massive.

I think there's 3 different scenarios:
Thinking with fear
Not thinking at all
Thinking positively

I have only recently stopped thinking over the ball. (A bad shot now will cause me to revert to old habits for subsequent shots but I'm working on that , trying to move on and forget the last)
It only dawned on my that I had stopped this when I stood watching a guy standing over his tee shot on a Par 3 over water recently, you could just see him freeze over it, nothing but fear was going through his head. He literally froze over the ball for about 4 seconds, it was car crash stuff, and something I'm sure others have witnessed from me.

It was only watching this that I realised I had gotten away from that...couldn't put a time on it but only over the last few months I'd say.
He went straight into the water and it just rammed home the importance of the mental side of the game to me.

I think I'm just at the "not thinking" stage at present, I need to do a lot more work on the visualisation, getting slightly more tuned in, in a positive way.

josie19

ajcurry123 wrote: »

I'm not sure if it would apply as much to FixdeSwing as he is lower and playing longer.
But for me, this is massive.

I think there's 3 different scenarios:
Thinking with fear
Not thinking at all
Thinking positively

I have only recently stopped thinking over the ball. (A bad shot now will cause me to revert to old habits for subsequent shots but I'm working on that , trying to move on and forget the last)
It only dawned on my that I had stopped this when I stood watching a guy standing over his tee shot on a Par 3 over water recently, you could just see him freeze over it, nothing but fear was going through his head. He literally froze over the ball for about 4 seconds, it was car crash stuff, and something I'm sure others have witnessed from me.

It was only watching this that I realised I had gotten away from that...couldn't put a time on it but only over the last few months I'd say.
He went straight into the water and it just rammed home the importance of the mental side of the game to me.

I think I'm just at the "not thinking" stage at present, I need to do a lot more work on the visualisation, getting slightly more tuned in, in a positive way.

I've gotten out of the habit myself. That's why I'm writing it down here to reinforce it to myself. I'm going to visualise every shot on Saturday and see how I get on again. It's amazing how quickly we forget something that works well.

DuckSlice

i agree with For paws, if your happy enough with you game and happy enough to continue knowing your potentially a better golfer than you are now, then there is no real need to change. but you will always, i think, have it in the back of head that you can do better. for me i play golf to be as good as i can so i would make the change personally. but like for paws said make sure you enjoy the change if you do proceed.

As for mental attitude it is a big thing in the game and getting your head around that will be a big improvement. how many times do you hit a cracker of a drive/fairway shot whatever after you have put one miles out of bounds. if we could have the same attitude as we do for the second ball all the time it would be great, your not thinking about your swing, you swing the club without a care in the world and bang a cracking shot.

FixdePitchmark

Interesting points - my Dad says, what is wrong with just playing with your natural swing.

Jim Furyk - great example above.
Eamonn Darcy
John Daly
Chi Chi Rodriguez

If you have a poor technical swing - you could still make it repeatable , that is key. This could be a large hook, fade/slice. But when the outcome is anything you are in trouble.

If you go to a pro - some will try show you the perfect swing - their teaching method, single plane, stack and tilt, what ever, etc. It is hard to find one that works with a poor swing or works with what you've got.

A top pro said to me - one of the most common things he hears in his clinic is " I don't what to change anything " (lol).

But - it is hard work playing golf and one day (As I did there a few weeks ago) have 61 % gir and the next 39 %. Ah it is not hard work , but a bit head wrecking.


If you enter into a time of change - you are committing to a time where it is not possible to get to a subconscious level. It is a pity because , I had worked very hard on this and was enjoying playing good golf without thinking too much.

I don't believe you can go through change without, entering into a prolonged period of conscious golf.

Anyway - less talk more action.

Will - hit the range and find my new pro in next few weeks. Have to find out if I could get to 5 or less. I know I can't with my old ways.

Thanks lads.

Catch ye in 2014 - I'll be the one topping 7 irons in February.

PARlance

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Catch ye in 2014 - I'll be the one topping 7 irons in February.

Looking forward to the Breaking 90 thread already

FixdePitchmark

ajcurry123 wrote: »

Looking forward to the Breaking 90 thread already

lol,

maybe even an Epic Thread -

Never bloody again

Almaviva

Not.

Unless there is a serous glaring flaw like a hurling grip or somethng, better of just working on the shortgame and course management (consultant Greebo available for hire at Dave Pelz rate maybe ? ). The problem is that nobody knows what a good swing is or how to make you play with one. Its just chasing wil o the wisp, and mutates with every generation of golfers according to who is the world #1 golfer du moment. Your own examples (Furyk etc) prove that not having whatever the 'correct' swing in vogue is nothing to do wth how well you really play. Throw in Trevino, Bruen, Moe Norman, Duval....the list in endless.

FixdePitchmark

spacecoyote

Yes, there is no one perfect swing & it changes with what is in vogue. Like in my place, most of the juniors certainly look like they're trying to imitate Rory with their swings.

Would you not agree that you should be trying to get the best swing for you though?

I've been with pros that do this. And told me that's what they try to do. One pro I saw said that when he started out he was trying to build the swing of every person who he met in the same way. Eventually he realised that this just doesn't work for the vast majority of golfers & that now he looks at the persons swing & tries to see what tweaks he can make to get their swing working best for them.

I don't have a swing that's forgiving on my off days. My dad does. I always say he hits good bad shots,ie, if he mi****s it's usually a bit heavy but travels in a straight line up the fairway. When I mi**** though it's likely that that it'll be either a push slice or a pull hook...that's why I need work, to get a repeatable effective swing

FixdePitchmark

FixdePitchmark

:)Jaysus - that is class that piece, don't know how we ended up there. But Crenshaw was very good with iron for putter.

GreeBo

Almaviva wrote: »

Not.

Unless there is a serous glaring flaw like a hurling grip or somethng, better of just working on the shortgame and course management (consultant Greebo available for hire at Dave Pelz rate maybe ? ). The problem is that nobody knows what a good swing is or how to make you play with one. Its just chasing wil o the wisp, and mutates with every generation of golfers according to who is the world #1 golfer du moment. Your own examples (Furyk etc) prove that not having whatever the 'correct' swing in vogue is nothing to do wth how well you really play. Throw in Trevino, Bruen, Moe Norman, Duval....the list in endless.

all those swings put the clubface on the ball correctly 90+ percent of the time though.
if you aren't or can't do that with your current swing but want to get better, change it.

realgolfgeek

GreeBo wrote: »

all those swings put the clubface on the ball correctly 90+ percent of the time though.

exactly, some of them may be unconventional and darn right ugly, but impact, and tempo is what sets them apart.

FixdePitchmark

realgolfgeek wrote: »

exactly, some of them may be unconventional and darn right ugly, but impact, and tempo is what sets them apart.

I would agree with above.

But it would be a very strong pro - or a full time coach, who would work with above and not try change.

If one of us goes to a pro, you hit 6 , 7 balls.

One or 2 - as they will with us will go left / right.

And your off on why, how to not.

Almaviva

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

But it would be a very strong pro - or a full time coach, who would work with above and not try change.

This is the nub of it for me and proves that pros (the whole golfing world in fact) still hasnt scratched the surface of what truly is the essence of how to go about hitting a golf ball well repeatedly. If any of those 'unorthodox' (I dont even like using the term) swings turned up to a pro who didnt know them from Adam he would start to 'straighten them out' or 'orthodoxise' them. Even though they would hit 10 balls in a row for him that are better than he could hit himself.

Greebo may be right and there could be merit in just changing anyway if you think what you've got isnt working - but hard to set off to improve when nobody really has a clue what you should do to achieve that. Its shooting in the dark. Maybe any swing style you try will make no difference. Maybe you have already found the best one for you and anything you change will only reduce your performance. Good luck on the mission anyway should you try.

(btw, I reckon that if Bruen had gone on to win 18 majors much of the world today would still be swinging his way - and probably with no better or worse results than they manage with their current swings).

bobwilliams

slingerz wrote: »

with regards to swing, i dont believe that there is 1 right way to do it. all of the pros have different swings and some look crazy to me i.e. jim furyk. however it seems to be working for him as he's a pro and i'm a hacker! for me a swing is about what your comfortable with. i think with sufficent practice anyone can improve their handicap it just depends on the athletic aptitude as regards how much they can improve or how quickly it can happen

agree with the above,all you're trying to do is get the clubface back square at the ball and that the swing is repeatable.
From what I've seen a lot of problems start from the set up,the amount of players who start off with their hands behind the ball at set up and clubface open is huge.
Let the flange of the club sit flat on the ground and walk yourself into it.

josie19

Read Tim Gallwey - The Inner Game of Golf.He was a 1st class tennis player who discovered when he went unconscious he performed at his optimum. He applied the same thinking to golf with some incredible results.He uses examples of teaching people with their eyes closed to feel where the club is at certain points in the swing and then estimate which direction the ball went.

He once gave a lesson to Al Geiberger on putting. Instead of trying to get the ball in the hole he asked him to see if he could feel where the ball went in relation to the hole without looking up to see. Focusing on the feel of the swing and without actually trying to hole putts he started holing them more frequently as his awareness of his swing grew. The essence of the instruction was not to focus on results (which causes tightness) but to focus on the feel through feedback.

John Divney

I think the point is, when people go on about keeping your 'natural swing', when the greatest swing of all time, such as Ben Hogan, was totally manufactured, and one of his best quotes, 'there is nothing natural about a golf swing'. The truth is our natural swings are probally 50% sh*ite

As for Jimmy Bruen, look at how he hits the ball, you can tell a mile off he's beyond gifted, that is a beautiful action into impact. All hands and wrists, but that is how naturals play, and that was how the hickory lads did it with that shaft. He has a great whipping action the ball like Sneed. Darcy is ungainly I'll agree, I'd like to see his impact position, probably spot on however.

If you can play to a standard of Jimmy Bruen, you have a great golf swing. Most people have to find their best swing, and it doesn't happen naturally. It takes a lot of searching, and understanding.

I do more readingg about golf than practicing, I never mean to but I find it fascinating.

But if I was a teacher, I'd tell students two things, your goal should be to have a club that when it passes your right thigh, still has maintained a 90 or less angle with your left hand, (so called lag)

2. Hands lead clubhead at impact, descending blow, majority of weight on front foot at impact.

Find the most comfortable way to do this, bring your natural parts into it. You can power a golf club with left hand only, right hand only, two handed. Hips and Shoulders onlly, hands and arms only.

Upright, or bent over, one plane, two. planes.

How do we know there isn't a better 'natural' ie more comfortable and repeatable swing if we don't consider it?

I think there is a wealth of knowledge people spend their lives accumulating, doing the hard yards, like Ben Hogan. It would be daft not to try it out for those who think there is better golf in them.

I agree with the above, teaching a one fits all swing is utterly mental.

scubapro

Fix, we all put bad swings on especially OTT now and again but after having the pleasure of playing with you on a number of ocassions this is most definately not the norm! In my eyes you have a decent swing( a bit long ala Mickleson etc,). For a man who recently shot +3, I would not even be contemplating a swing rebuild, maybe a few tweeks like being more compact( shouldn't be giving advice)
Anyway as stated by yourself your short game is not up to scratch, if I was you this is the area I would be focusing on, there is an easy 4-5 shots a round or maybe more in there if your put the effort in around the greens, that equates to you scoring +4 or +5 and less on a good day, now that is a decent level:D, only when I have achieved that and all other avenues are exausted with regard to getting lower if that was the goal would I consider major swing changes.

J

whizbang

Last week I walked off a course, feeling like i had one of the best games of my life, having collected a grand total of 94 shots for only 17 holes.

That almost indescribable feeling of the clubhead shuddering in ecstasy. I hit more 'pure' shots than ever.

I made that change, and its nothing to do with the score at the end of the day. The subconscious is looking for that feeling of a sweet connect now, rather than the 57 thoughts I needed to put together in the right order.

I will better my putting, my short game can be tuned up, but that's not about swing change.