Energy efficient radiators

conorhal

I'm looking at installing some Lucht LHZ radiators at home, the claim is that they are cheaper then storage heaters. You simply switch them on, and there is a 'magmatic; heating tablet that acts as a partial storage resource that keeps the cost down aparently.
Link here http://www.smartelectrics.ie/lucht-radiators

I'm sick of the storage heaters I have, they're grand if you're there all day, but they're spent by the time I get home in the evening making them worse then useless.

Has anybody used these radiators? Where they as energy efficinent as claimed?

MicktheMan

conorhal wrote: »

I'm looking at installing some Lucht LHZ radiators at home, the claim is that they are cheaper then storage heaters. You simply switch them on, and there is a 'magmatic; heating tablet that acts as a partial storage resource that keeps the cost down aparently.
Link here http://www.smartelectrics.ie/lucht-radiators

I'm sick of the storage heaters I have, they're grand if you're there all day, but they're spent by the time I get home in the evening making them worse then useless.

Has anybody used these radiators? Where they as energy efficinent as claimed?

I see nothing in that link that would suggest these radiators are any more or less efficient that any other electric heating appliances. (I have yet to see an electric heater which isn't 100% efficient)
Electricity is one of the most expensive methods of heating a home so maybe you should look at changing how you heat it (e.g. using gas or oil).

conorhal

MicktheMan wrote: »

I see nothing in that link that would suggest these radiators are any more or less efficient that any other electric heating appliances. (I have yet to see an electric heater which isn't 100% efficient)
Electricity is one of the most expensive methods of heating a home so maybe you should look at changing how you heat it (e.g. using gas or oil).

Sadly gas or oil is not an option in the appartment I live in.

Yeah, the '100% efficient' made me suspicious that there was a lot of BS to the blurb.
I assume that whatever 'magmatic heating tablets' are (molten rock material?) are supposed to provide a sort of storage component, in that they retain heat so that the rads don't have to be on all the time to maintion the room temprature, but how that might be more or less efficient then, say, oil filled rads I don't know.
I was hoping that sombody might have installed them or has experience with them and could tell me if they considered them as a good alternative to storage heaters.

Dantanian

I recently installed a Fahro heater in my appartment and find them great. They heat the room in no time at all and the model which i have is the Xana plus which can be programmed to keep room at temp, switch on and off at certain times etc.

You can view them at this site; http://www.electricheaters.ie/
They say that they can heat a house more efficiently then oil heating.

Iderown

Dantanian wrote: »

They say that they can heat a house more efficiently then oil heating.

and more cheaply??? Hmmm. I think not.

antoinolachtnai

You can buy perfectly good electric heaters in Power City or DID. There is no difference in efficiency.

Any blow-heater will heat up a medium sized room pretty quickly. (it's not particularly cheap to run, but the heater itself is pretty cheap and if you just use it very occasionally to supplement other heating, it won't make much difference to your electricity bill).

Dantanian

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

You can buy perfectly good electric heaters in Power City or DID. There is no difference in efficiency.

Any blow-heater will heat up a medium sized room pretty quickly. (it's not particularly cheap to run, but the heater itself is pretty cheap and if you just use it very occasionally to supplement other heating, it won't make much difference to your electricity bill).

No difference in efficiency. Are you joking?

Dantanian

I doubt it also but i am only going by what it says on the website in the comparisons. But with the price of oil nowadays who knows?
I have a fahro in my apartment and it is very good

antoinolachtnai

Dantanian wrote: »

I doubt it also but i am only going by what it says on the website in the comparisons. But with the price of oil nowadays who knows?
I have a fahro in my apartment and it is very good

Heating using peak time electricity is always more expensive than oil.

The electric heaters on this site are no more efficient that the ones in DID and Power City.

Where exactly is this claim of greater efficiency than a standard electric heater?

If you have evidence of anything different. (Ie a trial, preferably by a recognised laboratory) then let's see it.

Cushie Butterfield

The Lucht & Farho heaters are certainly more aesthetically pleasing than storage/combi heaters & the convector heaters that normally are in apartment bedrooms, so I suppose that is something to bear in mind, & for some people I presume that would be a plus.

But if being warm exactly when you want to be is your main concern I'd be more inclined to buy a couple of plug-in oil filled radiators with thermostatic control & timers. The initial financial outlay is a lot cheaper & I cant imagine any major difference in running/usage costs.

Dantanian

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Heating using peak time electricity is always more expensive than oil.

The electric heaters on this site are no more efficient that the ones in DID and Power City.

Where exactly is this claim of greater efficiency than a standard electric heater?

If you have evidence of anything different. (Ie a trial, preferably by a recognised laboratory) then let's see it.

Could you please give me an example of one of these types of heaters and i will happily explain to you how they are more efficient

antoinolachtnai

Dantanian wrote: »

Could you please give me an example of one of these types of heaters and i will happily explain to you how they are more efficient

Well tell us about the Xana you have installed in your apartment and how it is more efficient than a blow heater or oil filled electric radiator attached to a timer.

If you have any relevant interests this would also be a good time to declare them.

Dantanian

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Well tell us about the Xana you have installed in your apartment and how it is more efficient than a blow heater or oil filled electric radiator attached to a timer.

If you have any relevant interests this would also be a good time to declare them.

Well for one the way they heat up is far quicker then your standard heater. Also the Power usage is far lower then that of a standard electric heater. So a lower usage of Electricity = more efficient. A standard blow heater would struggle to heat a large room and the power usage would be higher.

A timer will cut the power after a certain period of time. Is the room hot now? Maybe or maybe not. These radiators cut out when the room is at a certain temperature not just a certain time.
You have absolutely no fact behind your argument. You are wrong and just accept it. I have no interests only to provide some advice from my experiences living in an apartment with Electric Heating for the last 7 years.

Cushie Butterfield

Dantanian wrote: »

Well for one the way they heat up is far quicker then your standard heater. Also the Power usage is far lower then that of a standard electric heater. So a lower usage of Electricity = more efficient. A standard blow heater would struggle to heat a large room and the power usage would be higher.

A timer will cut the power after a certain period of time. Is the room hot now? Maybe or maybe not. These radiators cut out when the room is at a certain temperature not just a certain time.
You have absolutely no fact behind your argument. You are wrong and just accept it. I have no interests only to provide some advice from my experiences living in an apartment with Electric Heating for the last 7 years.

You are referring to blow heaters (I presume fan heaters?) but oil-filled radiators such as this http://powercity.ie/?par=70-30-551225&brands=DELONGHI do exactly what you describe. The DeLonghi is one of the more expensive models. Similar ones can be bought a lot cheaper.

sandin

I have Lucht heater installed in three offices - the first bill after they were installed saw a drop of over 25% over the previous blow heaters / oil heaters.

In one office I have had them for 3 years, the other 2 were installed last year.

Advantages - you can set an ambient temperature (19 degrees in my case) - stone inside the heater heats up while its on and continues to emit heat for a while after its cuts out, the same way an oil heater will stay hot for a while after. Just that the stone or whatever they use will stay hot longer than oil.

100% efficiency - generally electric heat is close to 100% efficiency unless you put it beside a window and some heat is lost though the window.

Timer - 7 days timer on these too. Allows you pre-set on/off times during the day and different times for different days. A bit fiddly at first, but you get used to it.

So between being able to set temperature and accurate timings and the stone staying hotter for longer than oil, and they are quite ascetically please to the eyes, for me with heat required from 8.30am to 6pm during cold months, the savings were quite considerable compared to other methods.

Dantanian

Cushie Butterfield wrote: »

You are referring to blow heaters (I presume fan heaters?) but oil-filled radiators such as this http://powercity.ie/?par=70-30-551225&brands=DELONGHI do exactly what you describe. The DeLonghi is one of the more expensive models. Similar ones can be bought a lot cheaper.

That oil filled heater would heat a room there is no doubt about that but the oil takes far longer to get to the heat required. Also the heater which you have provided the link for is 2.5KW. The largest Fahro Heater which will heat a room of 30m2 is 1.3KW Which is using nearly 50% less Electricity. So if it heats up faster, cuts out when the room is hot and uses 50% less Electricity while doing so i think it is safe enough to say that it is more efficient and would cost half as mush to heat the room.

antoinolachtnai

Dantanian wrote: »

Well for one the way they heat up is far quicker then your standard heater. Also the Power usage is far lower then that of a standard electric heater. So a lower usage of Electricity = more efficient. A standard blow heater would struggle to heat a large room and the power usage would be higher.

No. This is not true. The output of an electric heater is measured in KW. Two electric heater elements with the same output will produce heat and use electricity at exactly the same rate. There is no difference.

If the heater has a storage aspect, it means that the room will heat less slowly, because the heat will be stored. If the heat is stored, then it is not available to heat the room. The heat is dissipated later from the storage medium. But this does not mean that there is any more heat for the amount of electricity used. It just means that the heat was radiated over a longer period of time.

A timer will cut the power after a certain period of time. Is the room hot now? Maybe or maybe not. These radiators cut out when the room is at a certain temperature not just a certain time.

There are very few electric heaters on the market that do not have thermostats.

You have absolutely no fact behind your argument. You are wrong and just accept it. I have no interests only to provide some advice from my experiences living in an apartment with Electric Heating for the last 7 years.

No, I am not wrong. I have no idea what your electrically heated apartment is like or what your lifestyle is. It may be that this is a better solution for you than your old system (though a cheaper heater would be just as good).

But you cannot generalise from that to saying that these heaters are more efficient than any other heater.

It should be easy enough to test this. Many testing labs will have a calorimeter which will be able to determine very quickly whether one of these heaters is more efficient than a standard heater. They can then produce a report documenting the findings.

If these radiators are really more efficient than standard electric heaters you buy in Power City, then why can't they produce a test certificate to prove it?

I would also refer the posters to Section 55 of the Consumer Protection Act 2007.

antoinolachtnai

Dantanian wrote: »

That oil filled heater would heat a room there is no doubt about that but the oil takes far longer to get to the heat required. Also the heater which you have provided the link for is 2.5KW. The largest Fahro Heater which will heat a room of 30m2 is 1.3KW Which is using nearly 50% less Electricity. So if it heats up faster, cuts out when the room is hot and uses 50% less Electricity while doing so i think it is safe enough to say that it is more efficient and would cost half as mush to heat the room.

No, this is not correct. To produce the same amount of heat as the 2.5 KW heater (at its highest setting), the 1.3 KW heater would have to run for almost twice as long.

Cushie Butterfield

Dantanian wrote: »

That oil filled heater would heat a room there is no doubt about that but the oil takes far longer to get to the heat required. Also the heater which you have provided the link for is 2.5KW. The largest Fahro Heater which will heat a room of 30m2 is 1.3KW Which is using nearly 50% less Electricity. So if it heats up faster, cuts out when the room is hot and uses 50% less Electricity while doing so i think it is safe enough to say that it is more efficient and would cost half as mush to heat the room.

Yes the one I linked to is 2.5 KW, but if you look at the specs here http://www.delonghi.com/en-GB/products/comfort/portable-heating/oil-filled-radiators/dragon3-trd-1025t/?TabSegment=specifications there are three heat settings: 1.1 KW, 1.4 KW & the highest is 2.5 KW.

Bainne Boss

Efficient electric heaters gain their efficiency by minimising waste heat. They store heat so that they can maintain a constant temp without any on/off charging temperature variance. So, say 20°C, can be maintain constantantly, rather than temp varying between 19-23°C between charging intervals.

There's online info on BSRAI tested Heatstore Dynamic panel heaters.

Higher standard systems to these efficent panel heaters are also available that radiate heat, not just convect, to improve the distribution of heat in a room, to reduce running costs.

These efficient systems generally also have highly accurate, comprehensive controls when compared to cheaper heaters. Most high standard systems have heating elements completely enclosed, so as not to dry out the air.

A much longer life span would also be expected when compared to cheaper heaters. Most have 5-12yr warrantees.

antoinolachtnai

What do these BSRIA test results actually say?

Maintaining a constant 20C is a matter of having a thermostat on board. Very few electric heaters are sold these days without some sort of thermostat.

You mention 'charging intervals'. I assume you are referring to storage heaters here. There is little meaningful comparison to be made between storage heaters and non-storage heaters.

How does radiating heat as well as convecting heat result in a reduction in running costs?

What laboratory tests have been carried out to confirm the reduced drying effect from these heaters?

What lifespan would one expect from an expensive heater? As opposed to a heater from Dimplex or whoever? The Heatstore Dynamic models you refer to only have a two-year guarantee.

Bainne Boss

Hi Antoinolachtnai

The results confirm that the heater can maintain a constant temp, say 20°C, with nearly no temperature variance (waste heat).

With cheaper heaters, the thermostats will allow temperature variance between charging intervals... so if you want to maintain comfort temp about 20°C, it heats the room to 22-23°C, thermostat will kick in to stop heater charging, temperature drops to 19°C, thermostat tells heater to start charging again back up to 23 and so on.

With efficient heaters constant 20°C temp maintained, either through storage (not night storage) or a very rapid switching electronic thermostat.

With regards to saving through combining radiant heat and convective. When heat is convected from a heater it goes up towards the ceiling. So the temperature near the ceiling is higher than it needs to be, which is waste heat. Heat is also lost to the ceiling. By radiating heat into the room, it improves heat distribution, reducing waste heat.

I haven't heard of any tests with regards to the drying effects of exposed heating elements. But if you've had an installed electric panel heater in a bedroom, or used one of these little fan heaters, you'll know that the heat produced is not great heat. I use efficient heating, heat feels the same as a wet system. That they don't dry the air stands to reason, the cause of dry air is a very high temp heating element in direct contact...which many efficient heaters don't have.

Heatstore Dynamic was just the test information online...these are medium range heaters, they are manufactured by Dimplex and re-branded. Specialist efficient heater manufacturer's such as Technotherm, Lucht LHZ, Farho, Rointe etc have longer warrantees.

I'd expect a panel heater, with daily usage in cold months to last for 5-6yrs...that's very much a ballpark estimate. Efficient heaters with a 12 yr warrantee so will probably last a good bit longer than 12yrs.

antoinolachtnai

I would really like to see the BSRIA test results and comparable results for other parties. Even if this heater has this advantage, it does not indicate that the heaters are efficient, just that they are controlled.

Is there any testing to back your second claim, that these heaters produce more radiant heat than, say, a regular Dimplex heater? And how much radiant heat do they produce compared to a bar heater? I am a little puzzled as to how this radiant heat produced without high temperatures.

I'd expect a panel heater to last 20 years.

Wearb

With regards to saving through combining radiant heat and convective. When heat is convected from a heater it goes up towards the ceiling. So the temperature near the ceiling is higher than it needs to be, which is waste heat. Heat is also lost to the ceiling. By radiating heat into the room, it improves heat distribution, reducing waste heat.


I don't buy that for a minute. Warm air will rise regardless of how it is heated.

People need to be made aware of the ambiguous claims made by the new all dancing radiators/heaters. The only difference between them and the way cheaper old-fashioned 2 bar convector heater are the controls on these newer ones, as far as energy usage goes. I agree that they look great, but just don't expect to be making big savings because of them. For a given heat output, a properly controlled 2 bar heater (or heaters) will cost no more to run than any of these new heaters.
I am not at all against innovation and design, but I know from talking to people, that they are expecting way too much from these new heaters. Just know that for a heat input of lets saw 1Kw you cannot get more than 1Kw of heat out of it. And to finish; electricity at normal daily rates is one of the most expensive ways to heat a house.

Bainne Boss

The Bsrai results can be found on the Heatstore uk website under catalogue downloads.

Yes they have improved control of their heat output, so more efficient use of the heat.

A bar heater would produce a majority of radiant heat. I don't know of any tests comparing radiant heat from a Dimplex panel heater and an efficient heater radiating heat...but if you put your hand in front of a panel heater (convector) and feel the temp, then put your hand infront of a bar heater, or radiant efficient, you would certainly feel the difference.

The radiant heat from efficient radiators is produced through storage of heat in ceramic plates.

I'd expect a panel heater, in say a bedroom, with intermittant low usage to last 20yrs with a bit of luck. Even with 2 hrs usage per day I'd be very surprised if it made it to 20yrs. If one was used in a living room, area of high usage, for 6, 10, 16hrs per day, I'd be amazed if it made it to 8-10yrs. The controls would warp a disintegrate with this level of usage.

With regards to 'warm air will rise no matter how it's heated'...radiant heating heats objects first, not the air. (wiki or google radiant heating for more info (I'm not being smart, it's interesting))Convector heaters heat air to very high temperatures, which causes it to rise quickley towards the roof, this disperses across it at high temperatures. There is constant circulation process for each method of heating a room. It's going to be very very hot above a convector heater, and much hotter than it needs to be across the roof...if the temperature above the heater is reduced, it reduces running costs.

Even the latest efficient convector panel heaters are designed with vents on the front to direct the heat down in a small attempt to improve circulation, such as the Dimplex EPX range, improved heat circulation described in its described on it's spec.

I'm not saying efficient electric heating is going to provide miracle low running costs, and there's no magic happening. They are just good heaters designed to minimise waste heat, not dry out the air and provide good control.

With regards to a 2 bar heater being as good. Most 2 bar heaters will only have an option if using one bar or two bars....so unless you have a constant never changing room heat loss of 1kW for the room, there are better ways to heat it.

I think electric is a reasonable option when compared to oil/gas/lpg. It'd certainly be cheaper to run than older inefficient wet systems, I think competative with modern systems with efficient condensing boilers, two zones and trv's.

Just breaking down the costs in a very much ballpark estimated comparison, to get an idea of how electric can be viable;

Electricity: 16.15 cent per kW, 100% efficient, also waste heat minimised, comprehensive accurate management for each room available.

Oil: 9.5 cent per kW, modern boiler 15% losses, pipe losses 15% (if you only want to heat one room you could have 50%+ pipe loses), temperature control losses 10%, servicing costs 5%, 14.5 cent per kWhr. Realistically, with an oil system, your going to have zoning losses...rooms heated when they don't need to be heated...that could add another large 20-30%. Improved heat distribution and temperature maintenance will add further savings.The installation costs for electric would be much lower, saving thousands. I think in real life oil would be a significantly more expensive to run.

Gas including standing charges is only about 6 cent per kW/kr, a very well managed gas system will get significantly lower running costs than electric...I think in real life usage electric wouldn't be too far off.

LPG: 12.39 per kW + losses.

Wearb

Bainne Boss wrote: »

The Bsrai results can be found on the Heatstore uk website under catalogue downloads.

Yes they have improved control of their heat output, so more efficient use of the heat.

A bar heater would produce a majority of radiant heat. I don't know of any tests comparing radiant heat from a Dimplex panel heater and an efficient heater radiating heat...but if you put your hand in front of a panel heater (convector) and feel the temp, then put your hand infront of a bar heater, or radiant efficient, you would certainly feel the difference.

The radiant heat from efficient radiators is produced through storage of heat in ceramic plates.

I'd expect a panel heater, in say a bedroom, with intermittant low usage to last 20yrs with a bit of luck. Even with 2 hrs usage per day I'd be very surprised if it made it to 20yrs. If one was used in a living room, area of high usage, for 6, 10, 16hrs per day, I'd be amazed if it made it to 8-10yrs. The controls would warp a disintegrate with this level of usage.

With regards to 'warm air will rise no matter how it's heated'...radiant heating heats objects first, not the air. (wiki or google radiant heating for more info (I'm not being smart, it's interesting))Convector heaters heat air to very high temperatures, which causes it to rise quickley towards the roof, this disperses across it at high temperatures. There is constant circulation process for each method of heating a room. It's going to be very very hot above a convector heater, and much hotter than it needs to be across the roof...if the temperature above the heater is reduced, it reduces running costs.

Even the latest efficient convector panel heaters are designed with vents on the front to direct the heat down in a small attempt to improve circulation, such as the Dimplex EPX range, improved heat circulation described in its described on it's spec.

I'm not saying efficient electric heating is going to provide miracle low running costs, and there's no magic happening. They are just good heaters designed to minimise waste heat, not dry out the air and provide good control.

With regards to a 2 bar heater being as good. Most 2 bar heaters will only have an option if using one bar or two bars....so unless you have a constant never changing room heat loss of 1kW for the room, there are better ways to heat it.

I think electric is a reasonable option when compared to oil/gas/lpg. It'd certainly be cheaper to run than older inefficient wet systems, I think competative with modern systems with efficient condensing boilers, two zones and trv's.

Just breaking down the costs in a very much ballpark estimated comparison, to get an idea of how electric can be viable;

Electricity: 16.15 cent per kW, 100% efficient, also waste heat minimised, comprehensive accurate management for each room available.

Oil: 9.5 cent per kW, modern boiler 15% losses, pipe losses 15% (if you only want to heat one room you could have 50%+ pipe loses), temperature control losses 10%, servicing costs 5%, 14.5 cent per kWhr. Realistically, with an oil system, your going to have zoning losses...rooms heated when they don't need to be heated...that could add another large 20-30%. Improved heat distribution and temperature maintenance will add further savings.The installation costs for electric would be much lower, saving thousands. I think in real life oil would be a significantly more expensive to run.

Gas including standing charges is only about 6 cent per kW/kr, a very well managed gas system will get significantly lower running costs than electric...I think in real life usage electric wouldn't be too far off.

LPG: 12.39 per kW + losses.

I do understand how all those heaters work, and except for splitting hairs, I stand by my assertions. This subject has been well thrashed out here on boards already and I am not going to make detailed arguments over and over again. I am happy enough to just provide a word of caution to any potential buyers, lest they just read the latest threads on the matter and not do a thorough search of boards before buying.
Now with your contributions and mine, they will be able to at least have something to think about.

antoinolachtnai

This is just nonsense. On the one hand the poster is claiming that the heating is predominantly radiant rather than convective, and on the other that the heat is highly controlled with a thermostat. These cannot both be true. Convection heats fluids like air. Radiation heats dense objects like solids. A thermostat can only work off the air temperature. But if the heat is basically radiant then you cannot judge comfort levels based on air temperature.

The poster can't back up the extraordinary claims being made with any certificates or independent test results whatsoever. It is just a bunch of opinions.

As for the BSRIA results being on the website you refer to, where are they? All I can see is a cover page from a report. I also notice that the parameters of the test, described on that cover page, are extremely limited and do not cover any of the extraordinary claims the poster has made here.

loco_

It's like buying anything. You can buy a Dacia Duster for less than 20000 or a Range Rover for 100000. Both do the same thing. Get you from A to B. These efficient heaters probably do the same thing as your oil filled heater from power city. It's all down to what ones budget is and what they want. A ugly oil filled heater plugged in on wheels or a more pleasing to the eye radiator on the wall.

Bainne Boss

With regards to radiant heat not being controllable through a thermostat. Radiant heat will still heat the air eventually... otherwise the planet earth would be very hot and all air surrounding it would very cold. There is wide availablity if radiant heating that works in conjuction with a thermostat.

With regards to the Bsrai, try googling 'heatstore dynamic catalogue'...there is access to 9 sections. This heater reduces running costs by maintaining a contant temp in a room.

Most electric heating manufacturer's are manufacturing heaters in various ways to reduce running costs, I don't think they are all trying to mislead people.

I don't think that it's extraordinary to consider that heater running costs can be reduced by maintaining a constant temperature, without drift or variance, improving how the heater distributes heat into a room and precise manageable controls. Considering 1°C is equivalent to about 10% running costs, of course minimising waste heat can make savings.

Nickindublin

Bainne Boss wrote: »

With regards to radiant heat not being controllable through a thermostat. Radiant heat will still heat the air eventually... otherwise the planet earth would be very hot and all air surrounding it would very cold. There is wide availablity if radiant heating that works in conjuction with a thermostat.

With regards to the Bsrai, try googling 'heatstore dynamic catalogue'...there is access to 9 sections. This heater reduces running costs by maintaining a contant temp in a room.

Most electric heating manufacturer's are manufacturing heaters in various ways to reduce running costs, I don't think they are all trying to mislead people.

I don't think that it's extraordinary to consider that heater running costs can be reduced by maintaining a constant temperature, without drift or variance, improving how the heater distributes heat into a room and precise manageable controls. Considering 1°C is equivalent to about 10% running costs, of course minimising waste heat can make savings.

I hope so as I am getting 3 installed :-)

Wearb

Bainne Boss wrote: »

With regards to radiant heat not being controllable through a thermostat. Radiant heat will still heat the air eventually... otherwise the planet earth would be very hot and all air surrounding it would very cold. There is wide availablity if radiant heating that works in conjuction with a thermostat.

With regards to the Bsrai, try googling 'heatstore dynamic catalogue'...there is access to 9 sections. This heater reduces running costs by maintaining a contant temp in a room.

Most electric heating manufacturer's are manufacturing heaters in various ways to reduce running costs, I don't think they are all trying to mislead people.

I don't think that it's extraordinary to consider that heater running costs can be reduced by maintaining a constant temperature, without drift or variance, improving how the heater distributes heat into a room and precise manageable controls. Considering 1°C is equivalent to about 10% running costs, of course minimising waste heat can make savings.

Maintaining a constant temperature will not be the deciding factor on efficiency, but perhaps on comfort.
The heat loss for a room will depend on the temperature difference between the room and adjoining areas, whether that be another room, roof space or outside. If you supply 1 kW of heat to a room (I know heat isn't measured in kw, but it's a measurement that people understand) using electric heating, then regardless of the type of electric heater you use, you cannot have more than 1kw of heat delivered into that room. Your (and those manufacturers ) arguments could only be true if old heaters were not already 100% efficient.
You are confusing energy efficiency with comfort and controllability.

Nickindublin

I have a fan heater. If you set it to 20c it will not cut out until it hits 22c or more. So what Baines is saying makes a bit of sense. Also Wear what you are saying is true too. 1kw of heat is 1kw no matter what heater you use.

Bainne Boss

Nickindublin I'm sure you'll be happy with you're heaters...and still happy in a years time when you've lived with them.

Wearb, 1kW of electricity is equal to 1kW heat, it's a 100% efficient conversion, all heaters are 100% efficient in this aspect. The efficiency I was trying to describe is for the use of the heat produced.

Wearb

Bainne Boss wrote: »

Nickindublin I'm sure you'll be happy with you're heaters...and still happy in a years time when you've lived with them.

Wearb, 1kW of electricity is equal to 1kW heat, it's a 100% efficient conversion, all heaters are 100% efficient in this aspect. The efficiency I was trying to describe is for the use of the heat produced.

I am sure you mean all ELECTRIC heaters are 100% efficient. If you want to talk about efficiency of "heat produced" you need to describe what you mean by that and not be changing the goalposts.

If I understand what you mean by efficiency of heat produced, then you are talking room insulation and not more efficient heaters.

Bainne Boss

I thought that it was clear that I was talking about the heat produced by the heater, it mustn't have come across.

I'm not talking about insulation directly. I'm talking about heat in the room. If you have a minimum temperture requirement for comfort of 20°C, then ideally your heater will have completely even distribution of 20°C throughout the room, maintaining it constantly, when required. This would be a 100% efficient use of heat.

Unfortunately there is no heater that can do this...but the closer a heater gets to this, the lower the heat requirements, the lower the running costs.

I didn't really want to get into a debate on this, I just wanted to give my opinion on the subject. Whether people agree or disagree, that's my opinion.

Wearb

Bainne Boss wrote: »

I thought that it was clear that I was talking about the heat produced by the heater, it mustn't have come across.

I'm not talking about insulation directly. I'm talking about heat in the room. If you have a minimum temperture requirement for comfort of 20°C, then ideally your heater will have completely even distribution of 20°C throughout the room, maintaining it constantly, when required. This would be a 100% efficient use of heat.

Unfortunately there is no heater that can do this...but the closer a heater gets to this, the lower the heat requirements, the lower the running costs.

I didn't really want to get into a debate on this, I just wanted to give my opinion on the subject. Whether people agree or disagree, that's my opinion.

Fair enough. I just wanted to add another dimension also. I saw that the thread had nearly 2000 views and wanted to make sure that those interested knew that there was other views. Keep posting, that's how we all learn.

Bainne Boss

Ah yes... I see where your coming from. I suppose that is the whole idea of boards.ie!

Nickindublin

I have just got 3 Technotherm radiators installed to replace storage heaters. Nice looking radiators. Turned them on for about 20mins to test them. Give off a good heat and they stayed warm for a good 20 mins after turning them off. Wont know what the running costs will be until the winter comes. Will report back then.

paudiel

Nickindublin wrote: »

I have just got 3 Technotherm radiators installed to replace storage heaters. Nice looking radiators. Turned them on for about 20mins to test them. Give off a good heat and they stayed warm for a good 20 mins after turning them off. Wont know what the running costs will be until the winter comes. Will report back then.

Hi. How have your radiators worked since you installed them last year? Thinking or installing them in my duplex apartment.

fisher

Also interested in Nickindublin's experiences with the Technotherm / Lucht LHZ heaters. Like paudiel, I'm thinking of replacing three 13-yo storage heaters in a duplex apartment.

Interested in improved controls so we're not heating the place while we're at work, holiday mode and frost protection modes.

Ability to control multiple heaters in one living space would be a huge bonus.

Any data on total heating cost per year compared with night storage heaters would be great!

Chisler2

fisher wrote: »

Also interested in Nickindublin's experiences with the Technotherm / Lucht LHZ heaters. Like paudiel, I'm thinking of replacing three 13-yo storage heaters in a duplex apartment.

Interested in improved controls so we're not heating the place while we're at work, holiday mode and frost protection modes.

Ability to control multiple heaters in one living space would be a huge bonus.

Any data on total heating cost per year compared with night storage heaters would be great!

I would like to know how the Technotherm performed as I am about to commit.

Nickindublin

Chisler2 wrote: »

I would like to know how the Technotherm performed as I am about to commit.

Sorry just seen this thread again now. I find them great. They take a little while to heat up but then they stay warm for about 30mins after they turn off. There is a good time which let's you control them by the hour. You can set holiday periods etc.

We have a 2 bed apartment and have the radiator set to 21.5c in the living room. It's on for 2 hours in the morning and 5 in the evening Monday and Thursday. Tuesday it's on 2 hours in Morning and 8 in the evening. It's on for 17hours Wednesday, Friday and Saturday and 14 hours Sunday. The bedroom is set for 20c and is on 12hours everyday. We are on nighsaver and our bills average at 100 a month all year round. I don't think you will save a lot of money but you will be warmer😉 IMO BTW our apt BER C3

TSQ

fisher wrote: »

Also interested in Nickindublin's experiences with the Technotherm / Lucht LHZ heaters. Like paudiel, I'm thinking of replacing three 13-yo storage heaters in a duplex apartment.

Interested in improved controls so we're not heating the place while we're at work, holiday mode and frost protection modes.

Ability to control multiple heaters in one living space would be a huge bonus.

Any data on total heating cost per year compared with night storage heaters would be great!

Has there been any research into the comparative efficiency and cost benefits of the different brands of new era electric radiators: Technotherm, Lucht, Jouletherm, etc. Am considering going "electric" for a small house renovation, but am confused by all the brands out their and the claims (I think Jouletherm claims 10-15 minutes of heating gives out 1 hour of output from a radiator, for example)

Also, any opinions on the use of Positive Input Ventilation (with integrated heater) in combination with these radiators - as I note the opinion that the even diffusion of heat throughout the room is a key element in reducing heating costs.