Six Council of State members call for removal of religious oaths

Michael Nugent

Six members of the Council of State have called for the removal of the religious elements from the oaths that the Irish President, judges and Council of State members have to swear in order to take up office.

They say that the issue came to their attention at the first meeting of the Council of State under President Higgins.

At that meeting, Tanaiste Eamon Gilmore had to swear the religious oath, despite being publicly on record as saying that he does not believe in God. He said that he had taken legal advice, and that he had a constitutional obligation to swear the oath.

Atheist Ireland had raised this issue with the Tanaiste before this meeting. Atheist Ireland has also raised it several times at the annual OSCE human rights meeting in Poland, including last year when Eamon Gilmore was chair of the OSCE.

The six members of the Council of State who have made the submission to the Constitutional Convention, acting in their individaul capacities, are Catherine McGuinness, Michael Farrell, Sally Mulready, Ruairi McKiernan, Deirdre Heenan and Gerard Quinn.

What the Council of State members say

The Council of State members say in their submission that the oaths could exclude or cause embarrassment to atheists, agnostics and humanists. They could also be unacceptable to Quakers and other Christians who do not approve of religious oaths, and to members of some other non-Christian faiths.

They recall that the 1996 Constitutional review Group recommended that the President and Council of State members should have the option to swear a religious or nonreligious declaration, and that judges should swear only a single declaration without releigious references as it was not desirable that judges should have to declare their religious beliefs or values.

They recall that the United Nations Human Rights Committee – the treaty monitoring body that monitors implementation of the UN Covenant on Civil and Political Rights - has also expressed concern about the specifically religious oath for judges.

They say that Republican forms of government based on openness, tolerance, pluralism – with an expectation that public space is truly open – tend not to add a religious dimension to the relevant oath or declaration. It is enough to commit to Res Publicae.

They conclude by recommending:

Option A: Our preferred option that is that whatever form any public profession of commitment to the Constitution, the laws of the land and a concomitant commitment to execute one's duties fairly and in accordance with the laws takes,  it should not contain a religious element.  This is not at all directed against religion or value systems - but simply keeps with the mainstream of Republic constitutions in creating the maximum space possible for all citizens regardless of their faith or background to enter public life.  No one should be required to wear a badge before assuming public office. No one should be deterred because they don't share the 'official' badge.  And no one should be forced to dissemble in order to assume public office.

Option B: We would also be prepared to accept a situation whereby an affirmation (without a religious element) could be given in lieu of an oath with a religious dimension.  This has the merit of opening up public space to all. But it does come at the cost of people bringing (or feeling the need to wear) their own badge of faith (or non-faith) into the public arena. Our main preference, however, is to remove the religious element in the relevant oaths & declarations.

The submission is now online on the Constitutional Convention website.

recedite

Very good. I see that the people behind this are six out of the seven presidential nominees to the Council of State. The majority of members of the council (all the others) are current or ex politicians, presidents and judges. Its good to see Michael D. has chosen people who are actually interested in improving this country as his nominees.

expectationlost

its a mistake to give option b, because then they can choose it and sa that's what these people wanted, even if its not.

SpaceTime

There are too many of these little official and unofficial inserts like prayers at council and oireachtas meetings too.

I would rather see politicians swear to do their job honestly, transparently and always in the public interest.

expectationlost

bit late but dug out the archive of the 'Citizens to Separate Church and State' Mike McKillan's discussion on the Presidential age bill on LMFM http://utv.vo.llnwd.net/o16/LMFM/2015/03/03/Loosetalk030315.mp3 at 49mins vs Jim D'Arcy of FG

Letter to government (cabinet) from CSCS dated 24 February 2015
http://www.cscs.ie/?p=5
Citizens to Separate Church and State (CSCS) wrote to government on 24 February pleading for the 35th Amendment Bill to be shelved until such time as the right to make an ‘Affirmation’ was inserted into our Constitution to deal with the religious oath that the President-elect has to swear at installation

they considered that this bill was extending the need to swear in the presence of Almighty God, to seeking God's direction and sustainance to a whole new generation of potential Presidents

they say they want the bill to pass, they are not in particular going to campaign against the referendum

silverharp

what happens in a court now? do you still have hold or put your hand on the bible or can you ask for a non fiction book?

magicbastarder

you can ask to make a declaration without needing to swear on the bible.

SpaceTime

It's embarrassing that we are incapable of actually doing anything about these things without pressure from the UN!

We're supposedly a republic yet we seem to have no concept of what that normally entails. It's just a word we throw around because it makes us sound badass and anti royal while at the same time we allowed right wing, religious conservatives to completely undermine democracy!

This is just another unsubtle way of excluding non Christians from public life.

It's just another form of institutionalised sectarianism in reality.

If we're going to continue this, please at least stop lying and replace all references to Republic with Holy.

robindch

Co-incidentally, Emmet Vaughan, a member of AI and a registered minister with the FSM, seems to have been excused jury duty because he's a minister of religion.

The exact details of what happened aren't exactly clear, it seems that the courts have implied or declared that FSM is a legitimate religion in this country.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/atheist-exposes-inequality-in-jury-selection-process-31139945.html

Independent wrote:

Members of the public can avoid jury service by signing up for a nominal fee to be a 'minister' in an online church. Emmett Vaughan (pictured), a self-styled minister with the 'Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster', has been excused jury duty in the Irish courts because of his beliefs. The 44-year-old decided to join the US-based registered church, who are also known as Pastafarians, online. Under current guidelines, a priest or minister of any denomination can be exempted from jury duty.

When he put his new-found pastoral role on the jury reply form, Mr Vaughan, an active member of Atheist Ireland, waited for the Court Service to seek verification of his position, The scheduled jury date passed and no verification was ever sought. He told the Irish Independent his actions expose the "inequality" which allows members of the clergy a privileged position when it comes to jury duty.

wretcheddomain

silverharp wrote: »

what happens in a court now? do you still have hold or put your hand on the bible or can you ask for a non fiction book?

What's the difference? :pac:

silverharp

I was called for jury service , I havnt looked the forms yet , worth trying out just to see if they will hang themselves by their own petard. I don't know if I'd have the balls to actually say it to a court officisl in person , would that make me weak of faith?

SpaceTime

Oh great so does this mean as an atheist I'm excused from jury duty in Ireland permanently?

expectationlost

robindch wrote: »

Co-incidentally, Emmet Vaughan, a member of AI and a registered minister with the FSM, seems to have been excused jury duty because he's a minister of religion.

The exact details of what happened aren't exactly clear, it seems that the courts have implied or declared that FSM is a legitimate religion in this country.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/atheist-exposes-inequality-in-jury-selection-process-31139945.html

or they looked at it, and the clerk said we don't have time for this crap and just ignored him.

recedite

expectationlost wrote: »

Mike McKillan's discussion on the Presidential age bill on LMFM http://utv.vo.llnwd.net/o16/LMFM/2015/03/03/Loosetalk030315.mp3 at 49mins vs Jim D'Arcy of FG..

they say they want the bill to pass, they are not in particular going to campaign against the referendum

But that interview was back on the 3rd of March. Now they are saying this..

Citizens to Separate Church and State is now calling for a No vote in the 35th Amendment referendum since government has not responded to its plea to stall the referendum pending the fixing of the religious oath requirement for installation of a president.

I'll probably just write "Separate church and state" on the ballot paper and not tick either box. I wouldnt bother going in at all except that I'll be there for the other vote.

expectationlost

recedite wrote: »

But that interview was back on the 3rd of March. Now they are saying this..
I'll probably just write "Separate church and state" on the ballot paper and not tick either box. I wouldnt bother going in at all except that I'll be there for the other vote.

hmm yes

We are making a short video documentary about the religious oath issue involved in the 35th amendment referendum next Tuesday 14 April.

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1637574896477129&id=1614337508800868

are you not in favour of reducing age of candiduture for presidential election to 21?

recedite

expectationlost wrote: »

are you not in favour of reducing age of candiduture for presidential election to 21?

Its highly unlikely there will ever be a 21 year old candidate, but I'm fine with reducing the age limit if somebody wants to.
The point is, who is actually calling for this change?
At the constitutional convention, they had a huge number of people making submissions calling for the separation of church and state. Yet they decided to ignore this, and instead call a vote on an issue of little or no concern to the public. On that basis, there is a legitimate reason for the public to protest by boycotting the vote.

magicbastarder

expectationlost wrote: »

are you not in favour of reducing age of candiduture for presidential election to 21?

i wouldn't trust a 21 year old who wanted to be president. except if they were doing it just to get the ride. i'd be able to respect that.

expectationlost

recedite wrote: »

Its highly unlikely there will ever be a 21 year old candidate, but I'm fine with reducing the age limit if somebody wants to.
The point is, who is actually calling for this change?
At the constitutional convention, they had a huge number of people making submissions calling for the separation of church and state. Yet they decided to ignore this, and instead call a vote on an issue of little or no concern to the public. On that basis, there is a legitimate reason for the public to protest by boycotting the vote.

just to be clear the they is Enda Kenny as Taoiseach, he chose which referendum would be held alongside the marriage referendum.

im not impressed with anyone suggesting not voting, or advocating a no vote for the pres ref because some other constitutional issue wasn't put forward.

I have in the past not voted, so can't quite get on high horse, I was reluctant to vote Children's referendum last year because I didn't think it went far enough and i didn't want to be seen to endorsing the government, although at the end I was scared it wouldn't passed so I voted for it.

the world will be better place with this referendum is passed, its not a vote about what else could have been asked on the day.

recedite

expectationlost wrote: »

its not a vote about what else could have been asked on the day.

But when "what is not being asked" is far more important than what is being asked, then I say stuff your silly question where the sun don't shine.

expectationlost

recedite wrote: »

But when "what is not being asked" is far more important than what is being asked, then I say stuff your silly question where the sun don't shine.

a propsoed amendment to the constitutional isn't silly.

BlaasForRafa

silverharp wrote: »

what happens in a court now? do you still have hold or put your hand on the bible or can you ask for a non fiction book?

I was called for jury duty for the circuit court a couple of years ago but thankfully I didn't get selected in the draw. I did get to see the swearing in process though and those that didn't want to swear on the bible had to stand to the side while the clerk swore in all "the normals". Then those who wouldn't swear had to go up to the judge and explain why they wouldn't swear and then he swore them in himself with a non-religious affirmation.

It really is time that this country got rid of religion out of the courts, the schools and any public bodies.

Hotblack Desiato

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

I was called for jury duty for the circuit court a couple of years ago but thankfully I didn't get selected in the draw. I did get to see the swearing in process though and those that didn't want to swear on the bible had to stand to the side while the clerk swore in all "the normals". Then those who wouldn't swear had to go up to the judge and explain why they wouldn't swear and then he swore them in himself with a non-religious affirmation.

They're doing it wrong.

Affirmation is a legal right, no explanation can or should be demanded.

In the Central Criminal Court when I was on a jury, the clerk just did it same as the oath, no fuss.

But you do have to interrupt them as they just assume everyone wants to swear :rolleyes: and why is the state asking people to declare in public what their religious belief is or isn't? We are very, very far from being a secular pluralist state.

About 10% of jurors (including me) affirmed, was disappointing it wasn't higher tbh, but it was quite noticeable that once one person on a jury panel did it, others following them were more likely to!

bnt

Or, you could become a Pastafarian Minister, then you can be excused jury duty altogether. :cool:

magicbastarder

i don't see what the issue is with priests being excused from jury duty.
in one sense, they are performing a job where they cannot be easily replaced.

in the sense i would be more concerned about, i wouldn't like to be on trial where one of the jury has declared himself subject to a law greater than those under which i am on trial.

lazygal

The jury thing is hit and miss. I work in a profession which is one of those explicitly mentioned as a reason not to have to do jury duty. However this was not allowed as a valid reason to skip it and I had to turn up for it, even though I wasn't ever selected for a jury. I didn't mind doing it but I don't understand how the exclusion process works.

Brian Shanahan

magicbastarder wrote: »

i don't see what the issue is with priests being excused from jury duty.
in one sense, they are performing a job where they cannot be easily replaced.

You got to be kidding me, priests change mass times or get stand ins on the drop of a hat. Our local pp will never say late mass any day Tipp are hurling for Liam as he'll be in Dublin boozing it up before heading to the game (on the other hand he hates the fact that the GAA club has all the smallies out training at 11 on a Sunday, thus clashing with late mass).

Fred Swanson

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magicbastarder

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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from what i've heard, even if your name *is* called in court, and you're not there, there's no action taken.

Fred Swanson

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magicbastarder

theoretically speaking, yes. have you ever met anyone who has been fined or otherwise even contacted for not showing?

Fred Swanson

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