New motoring legislation

Barryp6177

Hi guys,

Can anybody answer this question about the new legislation for motoring since last month.

If I am to buy a car which has tax arrears of say 6 months, am I liable to pay these arrears now under the new legislation? Or is it still the same as before where because there has been a change of ownership the arrears get wiped?

CiniO

Barryp6177 wrote: »

Hi guys,

Can anybody answer this question about the new legislation for motoring since last month.

If I am to buy a car which has tax arrears of say 6 months, am I liable to pay these arrears now under the new legislation? Or is it still the same as before where because there has been a change of ownership the arrears get wiped?

It's the same as it was.
You only pay arrears if your vehicle was not taxed and not declared off the road for some period, and you want to tax it.
Once ownership is changed, there is no more arrears due when taxing a vehicle.

sean1141

dose the previous owner have to pay arrears if they are due?
eg I buy a car that has not been used in the last 12 months and was not declared off the road..

Scortho

sean1141 wrote: »

dose the previous owner have to pay arrears if they are due?
eg I buy a car that has not been used in the last 12 months and was not declared off the road..

Nope.
Arrears die when the ownership is changed, hence the little loophole.

CiniO

sean1141 wrote: »

dose the previous owner have to pay arrears if they are due?
eg I buy a car that has not been used in the last 12 months and was not declared off the road..

Arrears become due for previous owner only when he goes down to tax the car.
If he never intends to tax his car himself, then arrears never become due.

Colonial

Good way to get more people to sell second hand cars I guess...

I wonder what the new motor sales industry thinks of that, or were they oblivious to this?

sean1141

So if my friend had a car that wasn't taxed for the last 12 months and wasn't declared off the road and I bought it off him today and sold it back to him in a few weeks there would be no arrears to be paid by anyone?

tryfix

CiniO wrote: »

Arrears become due for previous owner only when he goes down to tax the car.
If he never intends to tax his car himself, then arrears never become due.

That's a relief, so if a car is out of tax for a few months and the owner scraps it, then the arrears wouldn't be due or would they?

CiniO

tryfix wrote: »

That's a relief, so if a car is out of tax for a few months and the owner scraps it, then the arrears wouldn't be due or would they?

No they wouldn't be due. As above - arrears only become due when owner proceeds to tax the vehicle.

CiniO

sean1141 wrote: »

So if my friend had a car that wasn't taxed for the last 12 months and wasn't declared off the road and I bought it off him today and sold it back to him in a few weeks there would be no arrears to be paid by anyone?

With current law - no.
But maybe it's going to change at some stage.

corktina

CiniO wrote: »

No they wouldn't be due. As above - arrears only become due when owner proceeds to tax the vehicle.

By definition , arrears are due already. The point is they cease to be payable on sale of vehicle.

It's typically muddled Irish Government thinking and it's only a matter of time until this is addressed so that if vehicle is not taxed or under a SORD, then a fine is issued (as in the UK)

laffindevil

A future phase of this will be to introduce fines for cars not declared off the road so the reg owner would be more inclined to either tax it or declare it off the road thus avoiding the query above.

For now it just makes it eaiser with the NPR system to see if a car that is being driven on the road is taxed or shouldn't be on the road.

It's not perfect but an improvment on the back dating & stamping a form....

Mint Sauce

CiniO wrote: »

With current law - no.
But maybe it's going to change at some stage.

But wouldn't it come under tax evasion, asuming it was picked up by who ever in Shannon processing the change of ownership.

CiniO

Mint Sauce wrote: »

But wouldn't it come under tax evasion, asuming it was picked up by who ever in Shannon processing the change of ownership.

It can't really come under tax evasion, as you are not evading any tax.
Tax evasion could be the case, if arrears were due to be paid because car was untaxed, and by changing ownership this arrears were cancelled.

But with current legislation arrears only become due, when you proceed to pay the motortax. Otherwise they are not due, so they can not issue any fines neither can they accuse anyone of tax evasion as no one is evading any tax.

Have a look here:

‘period of arrears’, in relation to a licence to which paragraph (b) applies, is the period beginning on the date of—

(i) the entry on the register referred to in paragraph (b)(i),

(ii) the expiration of—

(I) the most recent licence taken out under section 1 of the Act of 1952 referred to in paragraph (b)(ii)(I), or

(II) the period specified in the most recent non-use declaration accepted by a licensing authority referred to in paragraph (b)(ii)(II),

or

(iii) the transfer of ownership referred to in paragraph (b)(iii),

and ending on the day before the commencement date of that licence.

It clearly says that period of arrears relates to licence to which paragraph (b) applies which in other words mean that period of arrears relates to situation when you are taxing your vehicle.

Here's paragraph b which even further confirms that fact.

b) Where an application for a licence under section 1 of the Act of 1952 is made to a licensing authority—

(i) in relation to a vehicle not previously the subject of such a licence, in a month other than the month in which the vehicle is entered on the register,

(ii) more than one month after the expiration of, in relation to a vehicle, as the case may be—

(I) the most recent licence taken out under section 1 of the Act of 1952, or

(II) the period specified in the most recent non-use declaration accepted by a licensing authority,

or

(iii) where a transfer of ownership of a vehicle has taken place, in a month other than the month in which the ownership is transferred,

the owner of the vehicle, in respect of each month of the period of arrears, shall be liable to pay to the licensing authority concerned an additional charge as well as the duty of excise, charged and levied on a vehicle under section 1 of the Act of 1952 and payable on a licence under that section of that Act, and the licensing authority shall not grant the licence unless the additional charge and duty of excise is paid

It's clear that owner of vehicle shall be liable for arrears only if he is licensing (taxing) the vehicle.

There is no law making arrears automatically due. Only if you go to tax the vehicle they become due.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2013/en/act/pub/0016/print.html

CiniO

corktina wrote: »

By definition , arrears are due already. The point is they cease to be payable on sale of vehicle.

That's not true.
They are not due already, as they become due at the moment of taxing the vehicle.
And they don't cease to be payable on sale of vehicle, as something which wasn't due to be paid can not cease to be due to be paid.
Why you keep repeating the same, if the legislation claims otherwise?

It's typically muddled Irish Government thinking and it's only a matter of time until this is addressed so that if vehicle is not taxed or under a SORD, then a fine is issued (as in the UK)

Maybe they will change it at some time in the future.
But at the moment, they have not grounds to issue any fines over it.

djimi

Cinio, explain this to me; if arrears are only due when you go to tax a vehicle, then why is it that it is illegal to drive a car that is not taxed? Going on what you are saying, no tax would be owed until you decided to pay it, therefore no crime is being committed.

djimi

corktina wrote: »

It's typically muddled Irish Government thinking and it's only a matter of time until this is addressed so that if vehicle is not taxed or under a SORD, then a fine is issued (as in the UK)

I thought this was the idea behind the SORN system to be honest. Under the current system the car is in one of two states; it is either off the road or is it taxed. If its not off the road, and its not taxed then a warning is issued and eventually a fine is due. Very simple to implement and to automate; I dont see where the issue is.

munchkin_utd

djimi wrote: »

Cinio, explain this to me; if arrears are only due when you go to tax a vehicle, then why is it that it is illegal to drive a car that is not taxed? Going on what you are saying, no tax would be owed until you decided to pay it, therefore no crime is being committed.

a valid tax disc must be displayed for a start if you are driving it about so by not having that you are already commiting an offence.

djimi

munchkin_utd wrote: »

a valid tax disc must be displayed for a start if you are driving it about so by not having that you are already commiting an offence.

Is that the only offense? To not display a valid tax disc? I was of the impression that not displaying a valid tax disc and not having current tax were two seperate offenses; am I wrong in thinking that?

CiniO

djimi wrote: »

Cinio, explain this to me; if arrears are only due when you go to tax a vehicle, then why is it that it is illegal to drive a car that is not taxed?

It's illegal to drive untaxed vehicle, because there is a law requiring all vehicles used in public place to be taxed. Simple as that.

Going on what you are saying, no tax would be owed until you decided to pay it, therefore no crime is being committed.

There is.
Driving untaxed vehicle is an offence. And if you are being caught, you will be prosecuted.

It's not my idea, so I'm not right person to find a logic in it.
It's just how our law is built.

In theory, you can drive untaxed and undeclared off the road vehicle for years, and once you get caught, they will summons you for driving untaxed vehicle.
But even in court where you are being prosecuted for driving untaxed vehicle, there is nothing forcing you to have arrears paid.

It's in the old system, where people who were caught driving untaxed vehicle, paid arrears to show in court they they backpaid the tax for the time they were caught, and effectively usually they get away with just 60 euros fine for non-display of taxdisc.


Now - if you are caught driving untaxed vehicle, you can go through court case, get prosecuted, pay the fine, and sell the vehicle without paying arrears.

CiniO

djimi wrote: »

I thought this was the idea behind the SORN system to be honest. Under the current system the car is in one of two states; it is either off the road or is it taxed. If its not off the road, and its not taxed then a warning is issued and eventually a fine is due. Very simple to implement and to automate; I dont see where the issue is.

True.
Very simple to automate and implement.
Only issue is that it's not the case, because regulations make it work different.

Under current system car can be in 3 states.
When tax expires you can either:
1. Tax it.
2. Declare it off the road.
3. Do nothing.

Only drawback of doing nothing, is that on next occasion you will be taxing it, you will have to pay arrears.
If you are not planning to tax it ever again, you might go on with point 3.

No fines can be issued for period of tax not paid, as there are no arrears due until you proceed to tax the vehicle.

djimi

So its illegal to drive a car that is not taxed, but its not a legal requirement to pay any owed tax on the car unless you decide to do so? Hmmm...

CiniO

djimi wrote: »

Is that the only offense? To not display a valid tax disc? I was of the impression that not displaying a valid tax disc and not having current tax were two seperate offenses; am I wrong in thinking that?

You are right.

djimi

CiniO wrote: »

True.
Very simple to automate and implement.
Only issue is that it's not the case, because regulations make it work different.

Under current system car can be in 3 states.
When tax expires you can either:
1. Tax it.
2. Declare it off the road.
3. Do nothing.

Only drawback of doing nothing, is that on next occasion you will be taxing it, you will have to pay arrears.
If you are not planning to tax it ever again, you might go on with point 3.

No fines can be issued for period of tax not paid, as there are no arrears due until you proceed to tax the vehicle.

There is no need for a car to ever be in "limbo" so to speak. Its either on the road and taxed, or its not on the road and has been declared off the road. Ill admit that for the next while there will be a lot of cars that have been off the road and will not have been declared as such, but they need to determine a point (maybe as much as 5 years from now) after which any car that has not been declared off the road is expected to be fully taxed.

CiniO

djimi wrote: »

So its illegal to drive a car that is not taxed, but its not a legal requirement to pay any owed tax on the car unless you decide to do so? Hmmm...

Pretty much - yes.
It's just when car is not taxed, tax is not owed.
This is the most cruicial fact - that during period of vehicle being untaxed, tax is not owed or due.

djimi

Fair enough; seems our motor tax system has more holes that need patching than I had realised.

Now to go off and work out how many times I can get fined before it stops being profitable to not pay motor tax...

CiniO

djimi wrote: »

There is no need for a car to ever be in "limbo" so to speak. Its either on the road and taxed, or its not on the road and has been declared off the road. Ill admit that for the next while there will be a lot of cars that have been off the road and will not have been declared as such, but they need to determine a point (maybe as much as 5 years from now) after which any car that has not been declared off the road is expected to be fully taxed.

True.
They should do it, to make the new system work as it should.

On the other hand, I think that whole system change was not necessary.
Look at it.

The idea now is that you should declare car off the road if you want to keep it off the road. If you are caught driving in declared car, you will be heavily fined, so people should be afraid to do it.

Why on earth instead of modifying the whole system, didn't they just start issuing the same heavy fines in the old system for anyone driving untaxed vehicle.
It would make much more sense.

djimi

CiniO wrote: »

True.
They should do it, to make the new system work as it should.

On the other hand, I think that whole system change was not necessary.
Look at it.

The idea now is that you should declare car off the road if you want to keep it off the road. If you are caught driving in declared car, you will be heavily fined, so people should be afraid to do it.

Why on earth instead of modifying the whole system, didn't they just start issuing the same heavy fines in the old system for anyone driving untaxed vehicle.
It would make much more sense.

If the new system is implemented properly it doesnt require any enforcement whatsoever from any third party such as the Gardai. The car is either taxed or its off the road. If its not off the road then the owner gets a warning letter, and if within say 30 days it has not been either taxed or declared off the road then a fine is automatically issued.

Its also easier to catch those who are committing fraud by driving a car that has been declared off the road. Under the old system I could drive untaxed for 6 months, and if I got away with it, declared the car off the road for that time, tax the car for three months and start the whole cycle over again. If I got caught then I just pay the arrears and move on. Under the new system, if the car has been declared off the road in advance and you are caught then there is no way of getting out of being done for making a fraudulant declaration. Again it removes this limbo state where a car is neither taxed or off the road.

CiniO

djimi wrote: »

If the new system is implemented properly it doesnt require any enforcement whatsoever from any third party such as the Gardai.

Of course it does. Without it, everyone is going to declare car off the road and keep driving.

The car is either taxed or its off the road. If its not off the road then the owner gets a warning letter, and if within say 30 days it has not been either taxed or declared off the road then a fine is automatically issued.

Probably in the future.

Its also easier to catch those who are committing fraud by driving a car that has been declared off the road. Under the old system I could drive untaxed for 6 months, and if I got away with it, declared the car off the road for that time, tax the car for three months and start the whole cycle over again.

Yes - and under new system you can declare car off the road for 6 months and keep driving the same as with old system.
Only reason why people would be more likely to do it under old system, was that fine for being caught driving untaxed wasn't usually big. But now fine for driving car declared off the road is said to be big.
So that's the only thing that really changed.
And instead of modifying the whole system, it was easier just to start issuing those heavy fines for anyone driving untaxed car in the old system.

If I got caught then I just pay the arrears and move on. Under the new system, if the car has been declared off the road in advance and you are caught then there is no way of getting out of being done for making a fraudulant declaration. Again it removes this limbo state where a car is neither taxed or off the road.

Look at it.
In the new system. Will I declare the car off the road and keep driving? No - because if I get caught, there will be 5000euro fine and 6 months prison (just an example).

Under old system - Would I drive untaxed car and if not caught declare it off the road - yes - because even if I get stopped, I will pay 60 quid for non-display of tax disc, pay arrears and get away from it.

So only what needed changing was the fine.
If under old system fine for driving untaxed car was 5000euro and 6 months in prison, then no one would be happy to do it, the same as now no one will be happy to drive declared off the road tax.
Doesn't it make sense?

Mint Sauce

CiniO wrote: »

It can't really come under tax evasion, as you are not evading any tax.
Tax evasion could be the case, if arrears were due to be paid because car was untaxed, and by changing ownership this arrears were cancelled.

But with current legislation arrears only become due, when you proceed to pay the motortax. Otherwise they are not due, so they can not issue any fines neither can they accuse anyone of tax evasion as no one is evading any tax.

Have a look here:



It clearly says that period of arrears relates to licence to which paragraph (b) applies which in other words mean that period of arrears relates to situation when you are taxing your vehicle.

Here's paragraph b which even further confirms that fact.




It's clear that owner of vehicle shall be liable for arrears only if he is licensing (taxing) the vehicle.

There is no law making arrears automatically due. Only if you go to tax the vehicle they become due.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2013/en/act/pub/0016/print.html

Well surely that is a major major loop hole then.

Fine far enough if I sell a car to you with no tax on it for six months, why should you be held liable for the tax I did not pay.

Maybe there should be a system in place, that when Shannon receives the change of ownership form, this generates a notice addressed to the previous owner that he/she is liable the tax unless he/she can verify it was off the road.

It should then sound alarm bells if he/she was to have the ownership changed back to their name months later.

I'm sure there is systems in place with the current property tax, that if you sell a house the seller is liable any excess fees before transfer of ownership, or in the case of the owner dying, it comes out of the estate. Way not the same thing for cars.

Yes we all complain about the current motor tax fees, but prehaps of everybody paid when they were suppose to, maybe those fees would not be as high.

Barryp6177

Does anyone know what exactly the fine is under the new system if you declare your car off the road and then continue to drive it and get caught?

This is obviously more serious then the old system because now you have made a fraudulent statement, this a criminal offence do can you serve jail time? Or is it just a hefty fine?