Garda - Lack of resources or sheer incompetence?!

A fan of An Garda Siochana, I've always sung their praises and always been reasonable with them in their efforts to deal with crime.

I believe they work tirelessly against a counter-productive judicial system, have become involved in a thankless and draining career and are generally a sound and well intentioned person behind their uniforms.


However, my experience today has Father Ted written all over it. Today I experienced what seemed like a complete lack of interest by several Gardai in their role (possibly as they felt they were getting shafted with someone else's work).


I won't give too much information away in this post as it would be probably unwise and may hurt AGS if they choose to pursue information given to them.

Today I spotted a criminal in traffic. Criminal is a suspect of several thefts, at least one of which made it into the news, and miscellaneous other crimes, one of which could well be a lead to a larger crime in future (in fact I'd bet money on it).


I had no credit in my phone, so I rang an emergency 999 call into Drogheda station today to inform them that I was behind said criminal in traffic.

I had to explain to the Garda how I knew it was a criminal and why he was wanted. The Garda, to be fair to him, told me to keep with the criminal. He said he would ring back in two minutes with the Garda that is directly involved with this criminal.


Cue me doing some Smokey and The Bandit style driving to catch up with said criminal (whilst keeping a distance to not be too close).

Eventually catch up and after 10 minutes he heads for the motorway, so I ring into the Garda station again (via 999 once more as I have no credit to call the station direct).

Garda tells me that it's not really a Drogheda issue as it's left their area. I should have rang Dublin Control apparently.

So another call - This time to Dublin control and I'm greeted with a "hmm, that's strange, why didn't Drogheda deal with it?" and "Drogheda really should have dealt with it".

After a few minutes I'm asked what I plan to do when I catch them as 'they could have weapons or knives'. Needless to say I wasn't too long about informing her that I had no intention of catching them (much as I'd like to be in the role of a Garda, as a Joe Soap with nothing going for me except the right to defend myself using reasonable force, I'm not going to be pulling over criminals on the motorway on my lunch breaks from work!).

So eventually I'm essentially told to not bother continuing to follow the criminal and to leave them be.


So I take the same exit as them off the motorway, but head my own way and leave them be.

On my drive home I get two phone calls from two different Gardai in two different stations, both asking if I'm still following the car and when told no, asked what direction was it heading.


I find the entire situation that unfolded to be completely amazing. The fact that AGS had an exact location for a criminal with a member of the public on the phone giving updates, and showed little to no interest whatsoever in apprehending the criminal, seems absolutely shocking to me.


If anyone were to tell me this story I outright would not believe them.


Surely this isn't par for the course with AGS. Why wasn't I transferred to a crew that were in a patrol car that could follow my direction and take over from me!?

The only Garda that seemed to be on the ball was the one that told me to keep the car in my sight and he'd get back to me. It's just unfortunate that he seemed to have disappeared after that (probably got reprimanded for using initiative - that'll learn 'em!).


I sincerely hope this is an unusual story and not the normal approach from AGS when dealing with this kind of situation? Surely it should have been handled better?! :mad:

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Surely this isn't par for the course with AGS. Why wasn't I transferred to a crew that were in a patrol car that could follow my direction and take over from me!?

First you are presuming there was a patrol car available!

And can't imagine the Control Room having the mobile numbers for all the members working in their area. Plus we aren't issued with state mobile phones when on patrol.

foreign

foreign wrote: »

First you are presuming there was a patrol car available!

And can't imagine the Control Room having the mobile numbers for all the members working in their area. Plus we aren't issued with state mobile phones when on patrol.

Well I will admit that I didn't come across a single patrol car whilst following the criminal. However, the Garda that rang me when I was on my way back home said he had a car on the motorway looking for me. Why was I not put through to this mysterious car?!


Surely you don't need phone numbers of members when cars are fitted with radios? Isn't that their entire purpose?

*EDIT: I did come across two patrol cars on my way back though.

Mr Jinx

firstly fair play to you,
however was the person in question actively wanted, or just suspect for these thefts? How did you know he was wanted or has not been arrested prior?

Its a bit unfair to say sheer incompetence, for the simple reason there is just not enough patrol cars to deal with every call that comes in immediately. Calls have to prioritized as they see fit.

Not knocking what you did, but it the amount of calls received from the public about things they thought they saw or something they thought was suspicious can be large. Some turn out to be something, the large amount turn out to be nothing, but it will tie up a patrol car for 20/30 mins before thats decided.

lighterman

foreign wrote: »

First you are presuming there was a patrol car available!

And can't imagine the Control Room having the mobile numbers for all the members working in their area. Plus we aren't issued with state mobile phones when on patrol.

Crap!!

The caller can be put through to a members tetra set as has happened to me in the past. so mobile phones arent needed anymore.

I was also rang by a member using a tetra set whilst in the car.

Mr Jinx

lighterman wrote: »

Crap!!

The caller can be put through to a members tetra set as has happened to me in the past. so mobile phones arent needed anymore.

I was also rang by a member using a tetra set whilst in the car.

All this is nonsense.

bravestar

lighterman wrote: »

Crap!!

The caller can be put through to a members tetra set as has happened to me in the past. so mobile phones arent needed anymore.

I was also rang by a member using a tetra set whilst in the car.

Sorry mate but you might want to remove the wool that's been pulled over your eyes.

To the Op, The location of many a criminal is known, doesn't mean you just go and grab them. There is a lot of work that goes on behind the scenes, that you don't see in the movies. He will be arrested for whatever crime when the investigating member is good and ready to do so and not on the whim of a third party.

Mr Jinx

Mr Jinx wrote: »

firstly fair play to you,
however was the person in question actively wanted, or just suspect for these thefts? How did you know he was wanted or has not been arrested prior?

Its a bit unfair to say sheer incompetence, for the simple reason there is just not enough patrol cars to deal with every call that comes in immediately. Calls have to prioritized as they see fit.

Not knocking what you did, but it the amount of calls received from the public about things they thought they saw or something they thought was suspicious can be large. Some turn out to be something, the large amount turn out to be nothing, but it will tie up a patrol car for 20/30 mins before thats decided.

Don't want to give too many details, just incase, but car was unquestionably of interest to AGS.

Mr Jinx

Deleted User wrote: »

Don't want to give too many details, just incase, but car was unquestionably of interest to AGS.

well as was said above, sometimes when someone is suspect in a crime, its well known where they are, Alot of work sometimes has to be done before a person will be arrested for questioning.

bravestar

bravestar wrote: »

Sorry mate but you might want to remove the wool that's been pulled over your eyes.

To the Op, The location of many a criminal is known, doesn't mean you just go and grab them. There is a lot of work that goes on behind the scenes, that you don't see in the movies. He will be arrested for whatever crime when the investigating member is good and ready to do so and not on the whim of a third party.

For serious criminals and gangland stuff I'd believe you. But why instruct me to pursue, and ring me afterwards asking if I still know where the criminal is, whilst telling me they had a car out looking for me?

Mr Jinx

Deleted User wrote: »

For serious criminals and gangland stuff I'd believe you. But why instruct me to pursue, and ring me afterwards asking if I still know where the criminal is, whilst telling me they had a car out looking for me?

Cant answer you there mate, but if he had told you that, you would still be here starting a thread on Gardai and their sheer incompetence.
Can't win.

Mr Jinx

Mr Jinx wrote: »

Cant answer you there mate, but if he had told you that, you would still be here starting a thread on Gardai and their sheer incompetence.
Can't win.

If he had said 'look, we know who it is but unfortunately we have to leave them be at the moment until we gather a book of evidence' I'd have begrudgingly agreed and would know that they at least have their heads in the game and are making an effort.

If they had stopped this criminal today, he would have been caught bang to rights from what I could see.

What I seen today was undisputable evidence of a lack of basic communication between Garda stations/Gardai and either a significant lack of resources (no other major crimes reported in Drogheda today that I know of, I don't think, so not sure what would have held them up) or a general unwillingness to have to deal with the work assigned to a different Garda.


Even a CSI Garda I spoke to agreed with me about it being handled poorly.

As I say, I'm a general advocate of AGS. I like them, but today was shoddy.

Mr Jinx

Deleted User wrote: »

If he had said 'look, we know who it is but unfortunately we have to leave them be at the moment until we gather a book of evidence' I'd have begrudgingly agreed and would know that they at least have their heads in the game and are making an effort.

If they had stopped this criminal today, he would have been caught bang to rights from what I could see.

What I seen today was undisputable evidence of a lack of basic communication between Garda stations/Gardai and either a significant lack of resources (no other major crimes reported in Drogheda today that I know of, I don't think, so not sure what would have held them up) or a general unwillingness to have to deal with the work assigned to a different Garda.


Even a CSI Garda I spoke to agreed with me about it being handled poorly.

As I say, I'm a general advocate of AGS. I like them, but today was shoddy.

Again like you, I'm only speculating, but its very unlikely the Garda who answered the phone, knows what stage the investigation is at, or even if he even knows who your man is.

unichall

Mr Jinx wrote: »

Again like you, I'm only speculating, but its very unlikely the Garda who answered the phone, knows what stage the investigation is at, or even if he even knows who your man is.

It all seems ok to me. Like some have mentioned you are looking at this from your own perspective and not from the perspective of all the individuals involved. All the reasons stated are very valid to be fair.

1. The garda you spoke to on the phone might not even know who you were following, all gardai do not know all criminals.
2. maybe they werent in a position to arrest the individual there and then but you were asked to keep following him because the garda on the phone doesnt know this.
3. The gardai in dublin might have no involvement or no knowledge of the case
4. Possibly a lack of resources, other calls are a higher priority and have to be dealt with first

There are probably 100's more perfectly legit reasons. I can see why this would be frustratingfor you but to suggest incompetence amd compare it to father ted is unfair

jamesr123

I'd be one of the first to complain about incompetence and lazyness. 148 houses have been robbed in my area over the last year and not 1 burgular has been caught. The guards response time is laughable 2-4 hours here now :eek:

However, I had to give a statement last week (I was a witness) I arrived at the station at 7pm that night and the place was completely dead. I'd say I seen probably 5 guards in the whole station, It was dead quiet, very strange experience. The guard brought me throught to the interview room which meant walking throught staff room, cells, offices, cctv room and it was scary to see most of the rooms with only 1 guard in them.

Funny thing was a lot of the patrol cars were parked up beside a handful of private cars. Which obviousally meant hardly any guards were on patrol that night. I reckon we have only heard about half of the cut-backs guards have to deal with..

Needless to say, I have my baseball bat beside my bed. You just can't rely on them anymore. No wonder crime figures are down...

Zambia

Imagine the calls the response cars are dealing with, sometimes they are all tied up. It happens to every emergency service in every country.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Well I will admit that I didn't come across a single patrol car whilst following the criminal. However, the Garda that rang me when I was on my way back home said he had a car on the motorway looking for me. Why was I not put through to this mysterious car?!


Surely you don't need phone numbers of members when cars are fitted with radios? Isn't that their entire purpose?

*EDIT: I did come across two patrol cars on my way back though.

You're contradicting yourself here. Why was I not put through and why should control room have the numbers?

And tetra as we have it can't receive or make calls other than 999 or GISC.

foreign

foreign wrote: »

You're contradicting yourself here. Why was I not put through and why should control room have the numbers?

And tetra as we have it can't receive or make calls other than 999 or GISC.

That's not really a contradiction, more a lacking knowledge on the ins and outs of the Tetra system.

But I know what you mean.

If they had a car patrolling the roads in my area looking for me and the criminal, why did the control room not get my number and pass it on to a Garda in the car immediately?

The Garda that rang me said he had a car out looking for me (he rang me on an unknown number, so I assume it was his personal one).

I'm guessing that at some point (30 minutes after the initial phone call to control in Dublin) the control room lady did pass my number onto a garda in a car, but why did it take so long and why was i told to stop following the car prior to them passing on my information?


There's something horribly wrong with the Garda service if this is the norm.

bravestar

[Deleted User] wrote: »

That's not really a contradiction, more a lacking knowledge on the ins and outs of the Tetra system.

But I know what you mean.

If they had a car patrolling the roads in my area looking for me and the criminal, why did the control room not get my number and pass it on to a Garda in the car immediately?

The Garda that rang me said he had a car out looking for me (he rang me on an unknown number, so I assume it was his personal one).

I'm guessing that at some point (30 minutes after the initial phone call to control in Dublin) the control room lady did pass my number onto a garda in a car, but why did it take so long and why was i told to stop following the car prior to them passing on my information?


There's something horribly wrong with the Garda service if this is the norm.

You assume too much. Pass your number on to the garda in the car? Why should that garda use his own personal mobile, at cost to himself, to contact you?

Just because a number comes up as private or withheld, doesn't mean it's a mobile.

source

[Deleted User] wrote: »

That's not really a contradiction, more a lacking knowledge on the ins and outs of the Tetra system.

But I know what you mean.

If they had a car patrolling the roads in my area looking for me and the criminal, why did the control room not get my number and pass it on to a Garda in the car immediately?

The Garda that rang me said he had a car out looking for me (he rang me on an unknown number, so I assume it was his personal one).

I'm guessing that at some point (30 minutes after the initial phone call to control in Dublin) the control room lady did pass my number onto a garda in a car, but why did it take so long and why was i told to stop following the car prior to them passing on my information?


There's something horribly wrong with the Garda service if this is the norm.

Do you think it may be possible the member was attempting to contact the member in charge of whatever case the person was suspected for?

Then after finding him passed your number on and he then called you to track down the suspect, and possibly had a car travel from some unknown distance to catch up to you. But at that stage you had left the area?

Could it be possible that the system worked fine, just that you didn't know what was happening in the background?

I'll give you the passing the buck on the district border thing, but the rest seems petty reasonable to me.

FGR

KKV - maximum respect to you for doing your civic duty and trying to help. Sad thing is though that equipment in AGS is far behind the times so fast, real time comms aren't possible between an caller and a patrol car.

On Road Wars you see the pro-active squads using state phones mounted on their dashes that allow for outside calls and/or calls to be patched through. They don't exist here. So what's left is the guard who had taken your call trying his best to get in touch with the relevant district and that district's car may be tied up with something else. That guard has his/her hands tied then. Also - as said; an investigation may be ongoing and the original calltaker may not have been aware but wanted to see if your request could be acceded to asap. I presume you're a party that has been affected by this person.

Again fair play to you. If more people were willing to help like this it would be great - but unfortunately when it comes to these situations circumstances need to be ideal.

It's ridiculous, I agree.

crackcrack30

I find this funny ( i'm not in GS), is this D.I.Y Sunday world/ Love Hate vigilante madness creeping onto our streets? Crazy, crazy crrrrrrazzzzzy , you should be walking the opposite way from these people.

Did it not dawn on you that if he was going around in full view that he wasn't worried about being seen/stopped or arrested by anybody.....

& & &...... & how busy would the cars be if they were all following cars that were following cars because a member of the public thinks they saw, heard read or know something......

Lock it up........:D

lighterman

Mr Jinx wrote: »

All this is nonsense.

Can you explain why when i rang bray station to report a car i got a call from "65300" (bray is 6665300) and it was the member in the car looking for updates

another time i rang the district station because there was no one in the sub station and due to the nature of my job i was put thriugh to the nember of the sub station who was out in the car

POGAN

lighterman wrote: »

Can you explain why when i rang bray station to report a car i got a call from "65300" (bray is 6665300) and it was the member in the car looking for updates

another time i rang the district station because there was no one in the sub station and due to the nature of my job i was put thriugh to the nember of the sub station who was out in the car

Talk thru from command and control works thru from the terta headset does it? I know your not able to call direct but can be patch thru by command n control

crackcrack30

crackcrack30 wrote: »

I find this funny ( i'm not in GS), is this D.I.Y Sunday world/ Love Hate vigilante madness creeping onto our streets? Crazy, crazy crrrrrrazzzzzy , you should be walking the opposite way from these people.

Did it not dawn on you that if he was going around in full view that he wasn't worried about being seen/stopped or arrested by anybody.....

& & &...... & how busy would the cars be if they were all following cars that were following cars because a member of the public thinks they saw, heard read or know something......

Lock it up........:D

The Gardai knew as well as I did that the car contained a criminal (once it were explained to them). I did originally post more info, but i've taken it down again to be safe.

source wrote: »

Do you think it may be possible the member was attempting to contact the member in charge of whatever case the person was suspected for?

Then after finding him passed your number on and he then called you to track down the suspect, and possibly had a car travel from some unknown distance to catch up to you. But at that stage you had left the area?

Could it be possible that the system worked fine, just that you didn't know what was happening in the background?

I'll give you the passing the buck on the district border thing, but the rest seems petty reasonable to me.

I absolutely don't deny that that's what may have been happening behind the scenes. However, if, overall, it took approximately 40 minutes between my initial 999 call and a call from a Garda (who either was in, or had control of, a car), then I would be absolutely ashamed if that's the system working 'fine'.

The core issue is that I followed a car for 25 minutes and at no point between the largest town in the country and the capital of the country could a patrol car intervene.

(also, as an aside, my backing off and moving away from the criminal was heavily related to the fact that a Garda instructed me to not bother continuing). At 25 minutes in, I figured the mickey mouse antics had gone on long enough.


Relatedly, on my way back into Drogheda I seen the Marked Ford Galaxy coming into the town from the motorway. Whilst it's a useless pursuit vehicle, it was obviously on the motorway and must have had some availability. Yet it seemingly didn't exist when I needed a car.

lighterman

lighterman wrote: »

Can you explain why when i rang bray station to report a car i got a call from "65300" (bray is 6665300) and it was the member in the car looking for updates

another time i rang the district station because there was no one in the sub station and due to the nature of my job i was put thriugh to the nember of the sub station who was out in the car

If a member does decide to use their own personal mobile they will get station to call them and then the station will put the call on hold and ring the second phone then hang up thereby connecting the two calls.

The five digit number is the short number on our internal system. All DMR stations start 666.... Bray was part of DMR so still has the number.

Mr Jinx

Deleted User wrote: »

The Gardai knew as well as I did that the car contained a criminal (once it were explained to them). I did originally post more info, but i've taken it down again to be safe.





I absolutely don't deny that that's what may have been happening behind the scenes. However, if, overall, it took approximately 40 minutes between my initial 999 call and a call from a Garda (who either was in, or had control of, a car), then I would be absolutely ashamed if that's the system working 'fine'.

The core issue is that I followed a car for 25 minutes and at no point between the largest town in the country and the capital of the country could a patrol car intervene.

(also, as an aside, my backing off and moving away from the criminal was heavily related to the fact that a Garda instructed me to not bother continuing). At 25 minutes in, I figured the mickey mouse antics had gone on long enough.


Relatedly, on my way back into Drogheda I seen the Marked Ford Galaxy coming into the town from the motorway. Whilst it's a useless pursuit vehicle, it was obviously on the motorway and must have had some availability. Yet it seemingly didn't exist when I needed a car.

Once a car gets on the motorway, it can cover a large distance. For instance if a patrol car was dispatched from Drogheda, it could easily take it 10 mins to get from the town to the motorway, On the motorway in 10 mins the suspect car could easily be near the airport.

Mr Jinx

Mr Jinx wrote: »

Once a car gets on the motorway, it can cover a large distance. For instance if a patrol car was dispatched from Drogheda, it could easily take it 10 mins to get from the town to the motorway, On the motorway in 10 mins the suspect car could easily be near the airport.

I'm not quite sure I understand your post?

I'm not sure if you're saying the service was up to scratch or shoddy (not trying to be funny, just genuinely unsure).

If they had dispatched a car to me when I initially called, the car could have taken over fairly instantly (assuming the car was at the station itself).

When I initially called Drogheda Station, I was literally 2 minutes away from it (even less, if you're driving on blues, obviously). I'm aware, however, that cars are rarely available directly from the station except at night.


Here's an A-B marker of where the station is, and where i was when i rang them (I actually wasnt as far away as marker B, i was at the junction slightly to the left of it, but much the same location really)


https://maps.google.ie/maps?saddr=Old+Abbey+Lane,+Drogheda&daddr=John+Street,+Drogheda&hl=en&ll=53.71433,-6.354496&spn=0.005657,0.016512&sll=53.713511,-6.353016&sspn=0.005657,0.016512&geocode=FTyfMwMdwQCf_ymruHwnijlnSDG9iKm4gOLl2A%3BFSuXMwMdGhmf_ykfyNIHJzpnSDE6MU2dlArPyg&oq=john+stree&t=h&mra=ls&z=17


A patrol car on the Motorway could have caught up quickly. I was travelling around 100km/h and keeping up. I'd assume a patrol car would be doing nearer 160-180 on a motorway so would have made up the time fairly swiftly. It just seemed like they didnt want to know.

Would it be worth complaining to the station about this? I really find it very shoddy (at the same time, as someone with an interest in Garda Reserves, I wouldn't want to hinder my chances because I moaned to the station previously).

Kevin3

KKV unfortunately there just isn't always a mobile available. You don't know what other incidents they were dealing with at the time and calls have to be dealt with in order of priority.

You would be surprised at the low level of cover that is provided at times even in a town the size of Drogheda. The call taker might have been dying to tell you that he had one mobile available to him to deal with all incidents coming in because of an unacceptable shortages of members due to prolonged cuts in recruitment but then he's probably not allowed to be so honest with the public on a recorded telephone line.

I'm sure you're familiar with the video below of members in Drogheda calling for urgent assistance and waiting for over six and a half minutes and even then only getting help from a single crewed patrol. This is the response for one of their own needing urgent help. You can't expect much better for your suspect who was not committing a crime at that time and could be dealt with at a later date for whatever they had allegedly done.

Zambia

It can't really be said it better than Kevin just put it