A Mature Discussion on Supplement Safety

kevpants

Hello.

With mod permission I'd like to see if we could initiate a discussion about supplementation safety. This is intended to cover legal supplements but if it spills marginally into the realm of the illegal or borderline illegal i.e. banned formerly legal supplements like Jack3d, we need to be mindful of the forum rules.

The catalyst for this from my perspective has been that it looks to me like there's an Arms Race of sorts going on in supplement manufacturing where companies are looking to differentiate themselves. What I mean is there seems to be a struggle to make your powerpowder do more than the other "labs".

The nail in the coffin is the below that I heard about on a recent podcast but that seems to be getting little press

USP Labs product linked to Hepatitis

Like most I considered the mention of hepatitis to mean some kind of virus was involved, however hepatitis really just means inflammation of the liver, regardless of cause. This is small enough, localized issue but USP are a leading brand and presumably decisions on manufacturing are made globally with little scope for local input aside from country to country legal differences.

The packaging for this supplement may remind people of another extremely popular pre-workout supplement mentioned above. That's because it's the same company making both.



Ever since I tried Jack3d for myself and ended up tripping out a little bit on the comedown I've thought there's more than meets the eye with regards to pre-workout supplements. When you break it down this is essentially a battle between various private companies to make a powder that makes you as buzzy and amped up as possible while taking advantage of whatever ingredients it can find that haven't been banned yet.

Where do we think this is going to lead?

The fortunes of these companies seems to wax and wane inexplicably also. Leading brands, manufacturers and distributors seem to go from market leaders to being "under new management" or experiencing sudden problems in fulfilling orders seemingly overnight.

Are these "labs" as proficient and cutting edge as they seem or are these companies furiously trying to keep their heads above water and their product number 1 in the discussions over on BB.com?

How many times have we seen the #1 pre-workout supplement get banned and for the law of abhorrence of a vacuum to produce a landslide of new shiny tubs trying to salvage whatever market share they can in the fallout?

The safety of supplements in the past as been brushed of as "it's just whey" or "it's just caffeine", and the concerns about cross contamination laughed of as "who's going to lace cheap pre-workout powder with expensive AAS!?".

Are we getting distracted by the noise here though? Clearly concerned mammies on Joe Duffy don't know enough to properly argue why these things should be treated with suspicion but maybe the sentiment is more correct than the online fitness warriors would lead us to believe. Is the threat here to do with the 2% of ingredients that differentiate a product rather than the main ingredient. The stuff that makes your face tingle pre-workout, must be awesome, the stuff that makes the shake mix well, so convenient.

Interested to hear peoples thoughts on this.

siochain

My own outlook on the supps is that you should first look to whole foods and then supplement ifs its really needed. What I would see as safe in reasonable amounts, most proteins, most vitamins and mineral blends, fish oils and creatine. Are they are really needed by the average person hitting the gym 2 or 3 times a week or some lad playing J3 rugby is another question altogether.

What I see as carrying some risky is the diet pills and pre-trainers.
Pre-trainers yes the work but at what cost?
Most of the stimulants contained in them can cause vasoconstriction; this is not what you want to be happening when heading out to play 80mins of rugby or any type of endurance event. Yes some of them contain NO precursors which cause vasodilation but a blend containing a mix of vasodilators & vasoconstrictors which wins out or are they both just putting additional pressure on our hearts. What are the long term effects to someone’s cardio vascular system, adrenal function, kidney function, etc…….
Diet pills, waste of money that carry similar but probably higher risks that the pre-trainers given the target market.

Everyone is looking for the shortcut without considering the long term risks. There are no short cuts, if you want to get better at lifting more guess what? Lift more and invest in a good coach. Want to get better at a sport guess what? Train more, train with the best, have your nutrition dialled in, have your sleep sorted etc.

Gummy Panda

The pre workout market has got ridiculous. Reading posts on here and other forums sounds like drug addicts chasing highs.

I don't trust american brands anymore even the likes of ON who started putting crap like creamers in their whey. I just stick to basic bulk whey

deadlybuzzman

The biggest danger I see is the fly by night nature of many of these companies. If someone has little or no interest in building a business over the long term then taking short cuts and chances that would damage the brand wouldve be a justifiable risk if peoples welfare isn't a consideration

I only read last week about a conviction in America of a guy that was selling a fat burner that has been banned since the 1930s due to it killing people including one of that guys customers so there are grounds for genuine concern.
Another thing I've a problem with is supplements packaged like they're pharmaceuticals. Psycologically I believe it can normalise going down a path easily lead people otherwise might not go down

2nd Row Donkey

Don't have much to contribute as I'm not well informed on the subject to give an opinion but I will be following this topic closely.

Much appreciated.

rubadub

kevpants wrote: »

The safety of supplements in the past as been brushed of as "it's just whey" or "it's just caffeine", and the concerns about cross contamination laughed of as "who's going to lace cheap pre-workout powder with expensive AAS!?"

I see it as similar to head shop drugs. There was a "herbal smoking mixture" which had a new synthetic form of cannabis in it. The smart dodgy chemists will not release the new compound, so in some cases it would not show up in any tests for known illegal compounds. So this herbal mix was going around for ages before it was banned, as the declared ingredients were known and legal.

The herbal mix was sold as being able to get you high, and users and word of mouth said it worked. Now if you are selling a product which is just supposed to contain whey I think it is far less likely to have other new compounds added to give people a kick, since people having this whey would question the weird stimulant effect (or whatever effect it gives). Just like if people were buying one of the genuine herbs from the smoking mixture for cooking they would question why they are getting high, there is not much reason for the sellers to lace it with something the buyer probably does not want.

It would also cost the company more to add this to regular whey. I think it is far more likely that new compounds would be added to products which do claim to get you a kick, and claim they do it legally, so the user does get the kick they expect.

So I think the "its just whey" is a bit different than "its just caffeine". If they did add some muscle building substance to whey it might give the user their desired results, but its nowhere near as immediate as a high off a stimulant drug, so they are less likely to be saying "jaysus that whey is great, you can really feel it working, I must get it again"

kevpants

I absolutely agree recovery products are less likely to contain anything hazardous but I still question the integrity of the companies that make the products. It rings a serious amount of alarm bells for me when a company is apparently flying high only to crash spectacularly despite a seemingly strong market position. Off the top of my head this has happened to NutritionX and Myprotein only recently.

Hanley

I don't stay up to date on supplements any more because most of it is complete horsesh*t.

But these would be my thoughts...

Good;
-liquid omega 3 supplement
-vitamin D supplement
-magnesium/ZMA
-protein
-creatine
-beta alanine
-possibly a good probiotic
-a greens drink/multivitamin

All basically supports/similar to what's naturally occuring and we know there's a need for.

Pre-workouts and stuff are stupid. If you're too tired to train, don't train (or eat/fuel/sleep better in future). If you have a cruddy workout, so be it. Your fault.

If you find yourself continually relying on pre-workouts, then there's definitely something wrong with your training/nutrition/recovery.

Any sort of stimulant long term will have some sort of negative effect on your adrenal system. So why do it at all?

I just think the logic behind it all is so ****ed.

Brian?

Pre workout supps have always bamboozled me. I just never saw the point. Coffee and wine gums every time for me. Now that I'm doing endurance rather than strength work most of the time I don't even feel the need for those.

Alf Veedersane

But pre-workouts have been around forever. They're basically the reason dinosaurs were created: PRE-historic. Is this not true?

cc87

Not sure if people are aware of this site or not, http://informed-sport.com/

Basically any nutrition company can send them products to be tests for any banned substance and if the stuff is clean its listed on the website. They also carry out random blind testing of any product they have listed

Also, nutrition companies have taken their lead from the likes of Gillette and know that the more manly and macho sounding their product is, the more likely it is to sell. Mach turbo stealth 3d razors = creabomb super caffeine nuclear

Dathai

cc87 wrote: »

Also, nutrition companies have taken their lead from the likes of Gillette and know that the more manly and macho sounding their product is, the more likely it is to sell. Mach turbo stealth 3d razors = creabomb super caffeine nuclear

It's quite ironic alright, considering the best razors out there are named "feather" (not by Gillette btw). They also sell at about half the price.

I used to take pre-workouts just because I had so much on during the day that I really needed a boost when it came to actually training. I think nutrition and supplementation (Whey, BCAAs, Glutamine etc) are more important, as Hanley said. I definitely feel better throughout the day, mentally and physically, because I've actually fueled myself correctly.

Gummy Panda

Dathai wrote: »

It's quite ironic alright, considering the best razors out there are named "feather" (not by Gillette btw). They also sell at about half the price.

I used to take pre-workouts just because I had so much on during the day that I really needed a boost when it came to actually training. I think nutrition and supplementation (Whey, BCAAs, Glutamine etc) are more important, as Hanley said. I definitely feel better throughout the day, mentally and physically, because I've actually fueled myself correctly.

I prefer Personna Platinum blades

Drained_Empty

is anyone taking glucosamine sulphate an chrondroitin?

Oisinjm

Having worked in supplement shops for the last two years Hanley's list above would be fairly accurate in what I believe as well. Although I wouldn't limit omega 3 to just liquid for various reasons, I also may add in a few others for those involved with sports (i.e. electrolytes or something similar).

Hanley wrote: »

Good;
-liquid omega 3 supplement
-vitamin D supplement
-magnesium/ZMA
-protein
-creatine
-beta alanine
-possibly a good probiotic
-a greens drink/multivitamin

I tend to avoid the majority of supplement companies from the US. The market over there is ridiculous. What pre workout can get you to sweat the most, get the most wired and get the biggest pump. It's a constant competition skating extremely close to the legal/illegal line and more importantly, the safe/dangerous line.

I tend to stick to the same companies when I do get my products. Whey from Irish sources that can be traced back to the cow/batch and then amino acids, multivitamins etc. from companies that I've grown a certain respect for over the last few years. I never recommend fat burners, but regularly I get people in who just want to buy a fat burner. The same goes here for Acai Berry and Raspberry ketones (a pet hate of mine). No amount of persuasion or education will change that, and I'm forced to recommend one. Same goes for intense pre workouts, some people are literally strung out on them and are constantly on a search for the strongest, newest product. I give all the warnings, speak and advise them on taking appropriate breaks from stimulants, but it's rarely headed.

Another issue is that often, the people working in supplement shops don't really have a breeze what they're talking about, or even worse, do and don't care. I know of one shop in particular, where the owner actively sells things with closer BBE dates, so as not to lose money, not taking head of the goals or general health of the customer.

I'm sure this was a bit of a rant, but its half one in the morning so cut me some slack. I'll probably end up editing it tomorrow or writing more on this.

Thud

An angle we don't often see/consider over here is the military. I have an American friend who fought in Iraq who told me when they were going out there they basically took anything that might give you the edge over the enemy in case it down to hand to hand combat.

So illegal or sports banned supplement lists didn't really matter to them. Steroids and preworkout stuff were widely used (and requested in the packages their families sent out to them), the minor risk of side effects probably held less weight as well.

It's a big enough section of the market over there to influence what comes out of these companies:
http://www.stripes.com/news/marines-warn-against-oxyelite-pro-citing-liver-damage-link-1.247180

Oisinjm

The more I think about this the more I think the problem lies in education. People haven't a clue what they're supposed to be taking, eating or how they're supposed to be training. This leads to them being easily manipulated and cajoled by supplement companies who are solely out for themselves and higher profit margins. I personally think that the reason Pre workouts, and in particular those packed with stimulants, have become popular is because the offer immediate gratification. There's an instant buzz and you can feel an effect. Same goes for fat burners that are loaded full of caffeine and thermogenics.

Whey proteins, vitamins, various amino acids etc don't offer these immediate results. As said above, people are looking for a short cut and for something that works instantly. The patience isn't there to go on a slow cut, or count calories or macros. The current store I work in, we actively try keep people away from the more 'powerful' preworkouts and fat burners. Unfortunately, if we didn't stock some of them, we'd be driving away customers and business and we'd have to close. It's a massive market, and while we do try to educate people, more often than not we get ignored. Being perfectly honest, in that case I no longer give a fúck what the person takes because I've spent half an hour trying to tell them the opposite. Some people don't want to be helped, they're happy to go to the gym 4 times a week and be in the exact same shape this time next year.

As always if anyone wants some genuine advice on supplements then feel free to PM me.

Sangre

I use a PWO as an alternative to coffee in the morning. I don't have a taste for the latter first thing in the morning, plus it takes a while to make anyway. I just want something that has a bit of a kick and doesn't taste awful.

Drained_Empty

i think a massive element is placebo. Especially that anecdote from the army. These are guys with guns, if they get into a grappling match with someone there is a litany of military tactical mistakes. But it probably makes them think they have an edge.

Ask a lot of people using steroids in sports WHY

the answer is often - because everyone else is i don't want to be left behind.

same attitude in usa university / graduate schools - memory enchancers, ADHD meds, ritalin etc. ; bit of a arms race

JJayoo

Drained_Empty wrote: »

Ask a lot of people using steroids in sports WHY

the answer is often - because everyone else is i don't want to be left behind.

People aren't taking gear because of a placebo effect.

Drained_Empty

JJayoo wrote: »

People aren't taking gear because of a placebo effect.

some people are. for sure. especially the people who aren't taking informed regimens or actually training properly.