Another CID query

Kerrygold1

I am in my fifth consecutive year in a VEC so I presumed I would be awarded CID this year. However when I contacted the VEC office it appears that because my first contract was fixed term from 30th November until 4th June it doesn't count? Is this in fact the case and thus was my first year worthless in terms of hours towards a CID?!

RealJohn

I'm no expert on this but I would have thought that if that first contract was for your own hours (not covering maternity leave or a career break or something) then they should count. The issue might be that there was a break between June and August after that first contract though.
That being said, it should make little difference now as long as you don't leave since you'll be entitled to it at the end of your current contract anyway (I assume).

markjh

As far as I know, the hours you had in years 1-3 are irrelevant. All that matters is that you had your own hours in the 4th way. This is the way it has been explained at any union meeting I've been to... and that's the grounds they fight for CIDs on.
If you are VEC I'm presuming you are TUI member and are working under Haddington Road Agreement now. The circular issued during the week states that you are now entitled to a CID after 3 years. So that first year is now irrelevant anyway. It looks like you are definitely entitled to CID now

Peter Flynt

markjh wrote: »

As far as I know, the hours you had in years 1-3 are irrelevant. All that matters is that you had your own hours in the 4th way. This is the way it has been explained at any union meeting I've been to... and that's the grounds they fight for CIDs on.
If you are VEC I'm presuming you are TUI member and are working under Haddington Road Agreement now. The circular issued during the week states that you are now entitled to a CID after 3 years. So that first year is now irrelevant anyway. It looks like you are definitely entitled to CID now

Well that depends on is union affiliation.

To answer the question of the opening poster. . . .The VEC are wrong to make that claim I believe. You would need to be calling your union as cases have been won in the past against VECs and BofMs on this issue.

Kerrygold1

Thanks for all replies. Ho hum I just wish it was all black and white. I've heard so many different versions and scary CID stories at this stage. Anyway as per advice I will have a chat with our union rep in the morning as from my reading of previous threads and TUI website the criteria for CID entitlement is four consecutive contracts and 22 hour CID granted if hours in fourth year exceed 19

rainbowtrout

You didn't work a full year in your first year. You started on 30th november. To have your contract qualify as an RPT contract and count towards CID it must start before November 1st.

My reading of this is that you worked the following:

2009-2010 (Year 1) November 30 - June 4
2010- 2011 (Year 2) Sept 1 - Aug 31 (dates are arbitrary, 1 year contract is implied by you for all subsequent years)
2011-2012 (Year 3) Sept 1 - Aug 31
2012-2013 (Year 4) Sept 1 - Aug 31
2013-2014 (Year 5) Current academic year, presumably a one year contract


The 09/10 school year does not count for CID. You didn't work a full year. There was a specific fixed term contract in place for 6 months. You didn't get paid for the summer. Your VEC is correct in not awarding you a CID on that basis.

Prior to Haddington Road you would be entitled to one next September based on this years hours as you would have completed four full years. As it stands if you are TUI, once all the HRA stuff is sorted out at VEC level you will be entitled to one as you have 3 years completed without a break. CIDs for 22 hours are awarded if your contract in your fourth year exceeds 18 hours. To qualify for one you have to fill in form H, principal must sign it, send it back to VEC and you get a 22 hour contract. The form basically states that you are to be paid for 22 hours and you are willing to be timetabled for up to 22 hours as a result.

Kerrygold1

Many thanks Rainbowtrout, I was hoping that you would reply as I have been reading your "pearls of wisdom" in previous posts!

I am in TUI and my contract in my fourth year was for 19 hours so maybe the Holy Grail is finally in sight

rainbowtrout

Kerrygold1 wrote: »

Many thanks Rainbowtrout, I was hoping that you would reply as I have been reading your "pearls of wisdom" in previous posts!

I am in TUI and my contract in my fourth year was for 19 hours so maybe the Holy Grail is finally in sight

This is the relevant section of HRA

http://www.education.ie/en/Circulars-and-Forms/Active-Circulars/cl0049_2013.pdf

28. In line with the terms of the Haddington Road Agreement, teachers who are employed on a fixed-term basis are eligible for consideration for a contract of indefinite duration once they have had in excess of 3 years continuous service with the same employer (a reduction from the current requirement to have in excess of 4 years continuous service).

29. Employers should now assess any member of teaching staff covered by the Haddington Road Agreement who, after 1 July 2013, has had in excess of 3 years continuous service with that employer, for entitlement to a contract of indefinite duration in line with section 2 of Circular 33/2009 and section 4 of Circular 34/2009 and issue a contract of indefinite duration to any teacher who satisfies the conditions therein.

30. The terms of Circular 33/2009 and 34/2009 remain unaltered apart from the reduction in service requirement for entitlement to assessment for a contract of indefinite duration from 4 years to 3 years.

So you should be able to follow up on this now as it seems fairly clear cut as to what your entitlements are.

Chris68

Check this out. I thought the actual legislation on CIDs refers to 5 "contracts" rather than 5 years.

rainbowtrout

Chris68 wrote: »

Check this out. I thought the actual legislation on CIDs refers to 5 "contracts" rather than 5 years.

It's that you have to work for an employer for 4 years, and starting your fifth year to get a CID. That time could be multiple contracts, but realistically to be continuously employed in the same school in teaching that means four 1 year contracts.

Millem

Kerrygold1 wrote: »

I am in my fifth consecutive year in a VEC so I presumed I would be awarded CID this year. However when I contacted the VEC office it appears that because my first contract was fixed term from 30th November until 4th June it doesn't count? Is this in fact the case and thus was my first year worthless in terms of hours towards a CID?!

Do you have all your "own" hours this year?

Kerrygold1

Millem wrote: »

Do you have all your "own" hours this year?

I've had all my own hours every year!

Millem

Kerrygold1 wrote: »

I've had all my own hours every year!

Happy days so! There are a few people in my school who thought they had own hours but it turned out they were 2 job shares even though people job sharing had completely separate subjects. Eg English teacher on job share history teacher on job share, science teacher full hours but made up of the other two teachers job shares!

Kerrygold1

That's exactly what I meant earlier. There are so many variables that it's never as cut and dried as it may have initially seemed. However I think all of my boxes are finally ticked!

teacherhead

Chris68 wrote: »

Check this out. I thought the actual legislation on CIDs refers to 5 "contracts" rather than 5 years.

Successive contracts. With no breaks in between. The only hours that need to be your own are the last year.

Kerrygold1

Really? A colleague will not be eligible for CID for another three years as she's currently covering for a teacher that's on secondment?

rainbowtrout

Kerrygold1 wrote: »

Really? A colleague will not be eligible for CID for another three years as she's currently covering for a teacher that's on secondment?

Well they're not her hours to begin with. That teacher could come back to their job at any time.

Moody_mona

I'm covering a secondment, this is my third year. But if they were to give me my own hours next year does that mean I could be eligible if they offered me a contract going into my fifth year?

teacherhead

Moody_mona wrote: »

I'm covering a secondment, this is my third year. But if they were to give me my own hours next year does that mean I could be eligible if they offered me a contract going into my fifth year?

Yes. Unless it's stated in your contract that the hours are dependent on a particular factor.

Pwpane

Millem wrote: »

Happy days so! There are a few people in my school who thought they had own hours but it turned out they were 2 job shares even though people job sharing had completely separate subjects. Eg English teacher on job share history teacher on job share, science teacher full hours but made up of the other two teachers job shares!

I think the ASTI took a case over this type of scenario and won. Might be worth checking out.

whiteandlight

Does anyone know what the story is if you are granted a CID on reduced hours. How do you increase them? Wait another 3/4 years?

TheDriver

There was a number of cases won due to lack of knowledge on both sides however things have changed a lot since then hence why you get a document for many fixed term contracts stating that these hours don't qualify for CID. Look back at what you signed over the years.

For reduced hours CID, there is a circular last year that states any extra hours in a school must first be offered to CIDs and also the aim should be to get people on full hours where possible. However it obviously depends on subject demands and it does take another 4 years to add those hours as a CID rather than a split CID/FTC for annual review.

rainbowtrout

TheDriver wrote: »

There was a number of cases won due to lack of knowledge on both sides however things have changed a lot since then hence why you get a document for many fixed term contracts stating that these hours don't qualify for CID. Look back at what you signed over the years.

For reduced hours CID, there is a circular last year that states any extra hours in a school must first be offered to CIDs and also the aim should be to get people on full hours where possible. However it obviously depends on subject demands and it does take another 4 years to add those hours as a CID rather than a split CID/FTC for annual review.

I was under the impression that an improved CID could be offered whenever the ETB/Dept saw fit, but they are not obliged to offer one for another four years, which is what happens in reality. So in my experience teachers in their 8th year could be offered/ be entitled to an improved CID for the following year if they are on more hours than their original CID is for.

TheDriver

not that I am aware, I know of a number of CIDs that have a FTC on the go at the same time and that FTC can become a CID on year 5.

whiteandlight

I wonder under HR does then reduce to 6 years?

rainbowtrout

Musicmental85 wrote: »

I wonder under HR does then reduce to 6 years?

That's what a few teachers in my school have been wondering

Chilli Con Kearney

You do not have to have every year in rpt contracts.
You could be doing casual subbing hours some years and these would count. But you must have two rpt contracts within the four years.
Continuous does not imply being paid every summer for the four years either. For example, I think that the asti has won cases stating that teachers who were subbing one year then brought back in September were working continuously, that the summer did not constitute a break in the build up to four years.

Economically Gifted

Maybe someone could offer an answer. Teaching in a TUI etb. This is year 4. have had my own hours since day 1. Had 18hrs 45 last year. I.e year three. Dropped to 16:55 this year. I understand I'm entitled to CID now. Does this mean I get CID on my currents hours or On full hours on the basis of last years hours? Will the ETB have to look back over last months pay and back date it? Will they have to find hours for me for the rest of the yer? Any ideas? And yes I'm awaiting a reply from them, so I've gone the step of contacting them.

teacherhead

Economically Gifted wrote: »

Maybe someone could offer an answer. Teaching in a TUI etb. This is year 4. have had my own hours since day 1. Had 18hrs 45 last year. I.e year three. Dropped to 16:55 this year. I understand I'm entitled to CID now. Does this mean I get CID on my currents hours or On full hours on the basis of last years hours? Will the ETB have to look back over last months pay and back date it? Will they have to find hours for me for the rest of the yer? Any ideas? And yes I'm awaiting a reply from them, so I've gone the step of contacting them.

To my mind you should get the CID for your year three hours as this is now the CID determining year.

As for back pay, the HRA applies from July but I'm sure there will be some determination made to smooth out these anomalies which will arise. The entitlement to be paid for 22hours won't arise until you sign the form h22 to apply for fullpay.

In practice a part time teacher will have to have some of their hours taken away to facilitate this as a school only has a finite allocation. Your situation seems fortunate for you. In other schools, such as my own, teachers in their fourth year on full hours will get a CID for less than this as their third year hours were lower than 18 but were raised to ensure a full CID in year 4.

Economically Gifted

Yes it's an unusually one and I'm sure it will cause difficulties for Human Resources as I understand this hours. Or more to the point the 5hours and 5 mins worth of money has to come from somewhere. I've actually sent of the h22 signed by principal last week. I will be making a follow up call in the morning and ill update if any progress has been made. Maybe I won't have to cancel Christmas after all.

Kierankk

Hi
I have 'yet' another CID query. I am currently in my 3rd year of continuous employment in a VEC (etb) school. The thing is I have a new position now as a behaviour support teacher on a full 22hr contract. Year 1 I only had a 6hour pro rata, year 2 was a 5.15hr pro rata contract. I'm just wondering now will I be entitled to a CID next year as my hours are funded by the NBSS and only go on year by year??? I received my pro-rata contract for this year and it states that I am contracted as a teacher of business studies ( which is what I was originally employed as in year 1&2). Under the special requirements on why I'm not entitled to a CID it states that I don't have 4 years on continuous employment (which I don't, so that's ok) and subject to special allocation for NBSS?
My question is will I EVER get a CID in my current position????
Please help!!!!!!!

teacherhead

Kierankk wrote: »

Hi
I have 'yet' another CID query. I am currently in my 3rd year of continuous employment in a VEC (etb) school. The thing is I have a new position now as a behaviour support teacher on a full 22hr contract. Year 1 I only had a 6hour pro rata, year 2 was a 5.15hr pro rata contract. I'm just wondering now will I be entitled to a CID next year as my hours are funded by the NBSS and only go on year by year??? I received my pro-rata contract for this year and it states that I am contracted as a teacher of business studies ( which is what I was originally employed as in year 1&2). Under the special requirements on why I'm not entitled to a CID it states that I don't have 4 years on continuous employment (which I don't, so that's ok) and subject to special allocation for NBSS?
My question is will I EVER get a CID in my current position????
Please help!!!!!!!

You should get a CID for your teaching hours. There should be another teacher in doing the teaching hours that you did last year but these hours are covering for you so they would have no call on them.

If your post is not funded next year you should be able to return to the classroom on your old hours. How many hours is your third contract for? This will determine the size of your CID. I would imagine thst the 22 hours are not from the school allocation so they cannot guarantee the 22 to you should the nbss post evaporate.

I suspect that the contract was issued prior to the acceptance of hra, this would explain the 4 years. In my ETB contracts have been issues stating that CID has mot been offered ad you have mot completed three years but this was after hra.

Kierankk

Yes it was posted prior to HRA so that's why it states the 4 years for CID. I don't think anyone is coving my hours for last year under my own name! The teachers that got my hours have them as their own now. I'm on a 22 hour contract this year (my 3rd year).
I have been talking to other teachers in the same job when we meet at in-service and any of them that are past the 4 years ( prior HRA) have CID's but vast majority had them before taking on the job of behaviour teacher.
I really hope I do get a CID as I've been working with the VEC since 2006 but the contract was broke various times due to redeployment etc.......
Thanks for your reply!!!!

teacherhead

Kierankk wrote: »

Yes it was posted prior to HRA so that's why it states the 4 years for CID. I don't think anyone is coving my hours for last year under my own name! The teachers that got my hours have them as their own now. I'm on a 22 hour contract this year (my 3rd year).
I have been talking to other teachers in the same job when we meet at in-service and any of them that are past the 4 years ( prior HRA) have CID's but vast majority had them before taking on the job of behaviour teacher.
I really hope I do get a CID as I've been working with the VEC since 2006 but the contract was broke various times due to redeployment etc.......
Thanks for your reply!!!!

Are you teaching 22hours? Sorry I'm not familiar with how the behavior support post is operated.

Miss Lockhart

Hours funded by NBSS have never been eligible for CID in my ETB. That includes people who are not even working in behaviour support. NBSS funding is temporary. This is the most common reason for not awarding CID given in my school.

I don't think you would be eligible for CID if your contract says all your hours are coming from this allocation. NBSS hours are like concessionary hours.

teacherhead

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

Hours funded by NBSS have never been eligible for CID in my ETB. That includes people who are not even working in behaviour support. NBSS funding is temporary. This is the most common reason for not awarding CID given in my school.

I don't think you would be eligible for CID if your contract says all your hours are coming from this allocation. NBSS hours are like concessionary hours.

Is it treated like a secondment post though?

Miss Lockhart

teacherhead wrote: »

Is it treated like a secondment post though?

For permanent and CID staff yes. But if a fixed term contract says the hours are NBSS funded then they are not eligible for CID.

I would be looking into where your own hours are gone OP. If they are gone to permanent or CID staff due to cuts then there's little you can do. But if they have gone to other non permanent staff then I would seek advice from the union.

Kierankk

It's just that others I have spoken too in the same job have CID's and got them while doing the behaviour job. It's just so confusing ( and I'm usually so informed about things like this).
Also how it stats that it the post is for a teacher if business studies!!!

As I said its 22hrs teaching contract. I'm not in a classroom anymore and I'm the only one with this post in the school. I know others can't get a CID due to NBSS but these teachers are the ones covering for the permanent teachers in the past in our school!!!

Miss Lockhart

Kierankk wrote: »

It's just that others I have spoken too in the same job have CID's and got them while doing the behaviour job. It's just so confusing ( and I'm usually so informed about things like this).
Also how it stats that it the post is for a teacher if business studies!!!

As I said its 22hrs teaching contract. I'm not in a classroom anymore and I'm the only one with this post in the school. I know others can't get a CID due to NBSS but these teachers are the ones covering for the permanent teachers in the past in our school!!!

I think it will all come down to what is written in your contract. If it says your hours are under NBSS allocation then I would be concerned.

It's possible that those who gained CID while doing the behaviour post did not have any mention of NBSS inktheir contracts - that this was put into some other part timer's contract as if they were covering for the behaviour teacher.

But in your case they seem to have made it clear that it is your hours coming from this funding.

Kierankk

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

I think it will all come down to what is written in your contract. If it says your hours are under NBSS allocation then I would be concerned.

It's possible that those who gained CID while doing the behaviour post did not have any mention of NBSS inktheir contracts - that this was put into some other part timer's contract as if they were covering for the behaviour teacher.

But in your case they seem to have made it clear that it is your hours coming from this funding.

Yea it's hard to know. I was only talking to another teacher the other day and she said that it is now ( not in the past) eligible for CID.....

Also I have a friend who teaches PLC's and she is getting her CID this year even though it stats that her hours are allocated depending on PLC allocation (if you get me)
I think all I can do is wait it out, see will I get NBSS hours next year (which I'm hopeful of)....... And try and seek se union advise then? My hours from last year went to non CID/permanent teachers.........
Should I ring the union now do you think d just ask?

Miss Lockhart

I don't know of any changes so your best bet is probably a chat with the union - about the NBSS funded hours and about losing your other hours to other non-permanent staff.

All I know is that NBSS funding has regularly been given as the reason for not awarding CID in my school and that the union has said that this is correct procedure.

Kierankk

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

I don't know of any changes so your best bet is probably a chat with the union - about the NBSS funded hours and about losing your other hours to other non-permanent staff.

All I know is that NBSS funding has regularly been given as the reason for not awarding CID in my school and that the union has said that this is correct procedure.

No worries, thanks for your advise!!!

carrydee43

Quick question CID for admin staff....I have worked for VEC for nearly 4 years on continous re employment never interviewed never got contact etc. Wednesday 20th November got a phonecall from ~HR to say I was been terminated and then offered a cover for maternity leave for 6 months which will bring me over 4 and half years service. HR said I have no entitlments but reading a lot of information I should have gotten a CID. Never got letter of termination for when ever "contract " was broken any help with this it is a lot of more information went on but its quite complicated any help on what i should do

thefasteriwalk

Do you mean you're administrative staff or you're a teacher? Maternity cover hours definitely aren't reckonable for a CID. Why did you not ever have a contract?

rainbowtrout

carrydee43 wrote: »

Quick question CID for admin staff....I have worked for VEC for nearly 4 years on continous re employment never interviewed never got contact etc. Wednesday 20th November got a phonecall from ~HR to say I was been terminated and then offered a cover for maternity leave for 6 months which will bring me over 4 and half years service. HR said I have no entitlments but reading a lot of information I should have gotten a CID. Never got letter of termination for when ever "contract " was broken any help with this it is a lot of more information went on but its quite complicated any help on what i should do

Are you admin or a teacher?
If you are a teacher did you get paid for the summer over the last four years?
Also if you are a teacher, did you teach your own hours?


It does sound like you are admin from the way you have phrased it.
When you say continuous re-employment what do you mean? Does your supervisor/manager etc come to you at the end of every three months and tell you that they need you for another three months?

If you haven't been there four years what are your grounds for a CID?

If you were to take a case with your union (if you are in one) payslips proving hours worked, increments etc would be enough to constitute a contract.

markjh

thefasteriwalk wrote: »

Do you mean you're administrative staff or you're a teacher? Maternity cover hours definitely aren't reckonable for a CID. Why did you not ever have a contract?

Not true from what I hear from the unions. For example, if a person was continually employed for three years on maternity leaves and was taken on again for a fourth year on their own hours and then was taken on again for the fifth year they would be entitled to CID on the first day of the fifth year. So, in this case, the maternity leave years would count towards CID.

With the recent cuts to maternity leave it would now be more difficult (and more unlikely) to get a full school year covering for one teacher.

newfrontier

Just a quick query if you have bti and rpt hours for the same 3 years can they be used to determine the new CID entitlement?,

Kierankk

Just to update people on my position.

For those of you who can't remember here is background story.

Teacher in a ETB

Year 1 - PRO-RATA 6hours (PLC CONDITIONS)
Year 2 - PRO RATA 5.15hours ( PLC CONDITIONS)
Year 3 - PRO RATE 22 hours (NBSS ALLOCATION)
YEAR 4 - PRO RATA 22 hours (2014/2015)

As I type I am now looking at my CID for a full 22 hours as a BUSINESS TEACHER. (But I'm still going to be in my position as a Behaviour Support Teacher and now another teacher will be coming in to teach Business under my hours)

The one strange thing is I've never even had business on my timetable (in current school) as I've just taught PLC's.

Just goes to show if you stick it out with the S**T contracts they sometimes pay off.

CID just came in the post without any prior knowledge of knowing I was getting one and with no union contact etc.

One happy chappie today!!!!!

Millem

Kierankk wrote: »

Just to update people on my position.

Fir those of you who can't remember here is background story.

Teacher in a ETB

Year 1 - PRO-RATA 6hours (PLC CONDITIONS)
Year 2 - PRO RATA 5.15hours ( PLC CONDITIONS)
Year 3 - PRO RATE 22 hours (NBSS ALLOCATION)
YEAR 4 - PRO RATA 22 hours (2014/2015)

As I type I am now looking at my CID for a full 22 hours as a BUSINESS TEACHER. (But I'm still going to be in my position as a Behaviour Support Teacher and now another teacher will be coming in to teach Business under my hours)

The one strange thing is I've never even had business on my timetable (in current school) as I've just thought PLC's.

Just goes to show if you stick it out with the S**T contracts they definitely pay off.

CID just came in the post without any prior knowledge of knowing I was getting one and with no union contact etc.

One happy chappie today!!!!!

Good for you....well done

rainbowtrout

Kierankk wrote: »

Just to update people on my position.

Fir those of you who can't remember here is background story.

Teacher in a ETB

Year 1 - PRO-RATA 6hours (PLC CONDITIONS)
Year 2 - PRO RATA 5.15hours ( PLC CONDITIONS)
Year 3 - PRO RATE 22 hours (NBSS ALLOCATION)
YEAR 4 - PRO RATA 22 hours (2014/2015)

As I type I am now looking at my CID for a full 22 hours as a BUSINESS TEACHER. (But I'm still going to be in my position as a Behaviour Support Teacher and now another teacher will be coming in to teach Business under my hours)

The one strange thing is I've never even had business on my timetable (in current school) as I've just thought PLC's.

Just goes to show if you stick it out with the S**T contracts they definitely pay off.

CID just came in the post without any prior knowledge of knowing I was getting one and with no union contact etc.

One happy chappie today!!!!!

Congratulations! Take the 22 hour contract and do not dare question it!
It probably says business if you are qualified as a business teacher and it is business subjects you teach in PLC.

evolving_doors

Kierankk wrote: »

Just to update people on my position.

Fir those of you who can't remember here is background story.

Teacher in a ETB

Year 1 - PRO-RATA 6hours (PLC CONDITIONS)
Year 2 - PRO RATA 5.15hours ( PLC CONDITIONS)
Year 3 - PRO RATE 22 hours (NBSS ALLOCATION)
YEAR 4 - PRO RATA 22 hours (2014/2015)

As I type I am now looking at my CID for a full 22 hours as a BUSINESS TEACHER. (But I'm still going to be in my position as a Behaviour Support Teacher and now another teacher will be coming in to teach Business under my hours)

The one strange thing is I've never even had business on my timetable (in current school) as I've just thought PLC's.

Just goes to show if you stick it out with the S**T contracts they definitely pay off.

CID just came in the post without any prior knowledge of knowing I was getting one and with no union contact etc.

One happy chappie today!!!!!

I presume you are a qualified business teacher though!! From what i know your CID is in whatever your subject registered on the TC site.