Condenser boiler

cupcakes15

Hi .. Opinions please .. I have a viessmann condenser boiler 4 years and during the week I noticed the pressure dropping on the gauge and water coming out of the pipe at side of house .. I called a Rgi registered guy and he came yesterday and serviced the boiler and put on a new safety value to sort the problem ...unfortunately that didn't work.. Would anyone have any idea what the problem might be ?? It's so annoying .. I had to open the value in hotpress this morn and release pressure this morn to get heating going again ..

cupcakes15

cupcakes15 wrote: »

Hi .. Opinions please .. I have a viessmann condenser boiler 4 years and during the week I noticed the pressure dropping on the gauge and water coming out of the pipe at side of house .. I called a Rgi registered guy and he came yesterday and serviced the boiler and put on a new safety value to sort the problem ...unfortunately that didn't work.. Would anyone have any idea what the problem might be ?? It's so annoying .. I had to open the value in hotpress this morn and release pressure this morn to get heating going again ..

A leaking safety valve is usually a symptom of a problem and not the main problem itself, changing the valve is rarely enough.

Monitor your guage readings and see if the pressure raises as the system gets hotter(I.E.. 1bar - 2 1/2 bar+). I would be getting a RGI to check the pressure vessel and the cleanliness of your system water.

Call Presision heating (http://www.precisionheating.ie/default.aspx) who would have access to a lot of good RGI's who would be able to put this to bed easily enough.

cupcakes15

thank you very much for the advise..i just spoke with the man who fitted the value yesterday..i am monitoring the water dripping and the pressure closely right now for him..he mentioned an expansion band which i gathered is a big job...who it be normal for this trouble on a 4 year old boiler ??

cupcakes15

cupcakes15 wrote: »

thank you very much for the advise..i just spoke with the man who fitted the value yesterday..i am monitoring the water dripping and the pressure closely right now for him..he mentioned an expansion band which i gathered is a big job...who it be normal for this trouble on a 4 year old boiler ??

Safety valves don't start releasing water for no reason, when a valve lifts a RGI should be looking to identify the cause of the problem and not just deal with the symptom.

I'm sure your RGI is a good guy but you may be better served by a Viessmann trained RGI which you can find by contacting Precision.

I would not expect a well serviced boiler on a clean system to have issues so the cause needs to be identified.

cupcakes15

Thanks again.. I think I will get precision on the job ..I want to get it sorted ASAP.

cupcakes15

cupcakes15 wrote: »

Thanks again.. I think I will get precision on the job ..I want to get it sorted ASAP.

Do they work on a Sunday ?? Or would that be a lot more money ??

cupcakes15

cupcakes15 wrote: »

Do they work on a Sunday ?? Or would that be a lot more money ??

Nope, their office won't be open till tomorrow.

There's a few viessmann installers on boards so if you mention where you live you may get a couple of PMs, Johnnyk is in Balbriggan and a good Viessman so maybe some good to you.

cupcakes15

gary71 wrote: »

Nope, their office won't be open till tomorrow.

There's a few viessmann installers on boards so if you mention where you live you may get a couple of PMs, Johnnyk is in Balbriggan and a good Viessman so maybe some good to you.

Ok.. He actually coming out now to look at it again .. Should I expect him to ask me for more money ?? I paid 180 quid yesterday

scudo2

cupcakes15 wrote: »

Hi .. Opinions please .. I have a viessmann condenser boiler 4 years and during the week I noticed the pressure dropping on the gauge and water coming out of the pipe at side of house .. I called a Rgi registered guy and he came yesterday and serviced the boiler and put on a new safety value to sort the problem ...unfortunately that didn't work.. Would anyone have any idea what the problem might be ?? It's so annoying .. I had to open the value in hotpress this morn and release pressure this morn to get heating going again ..

Red expansion vessel is proberly flat and full of water rather than air which absorbes the pressure rather than the safety valve having to discharge it.
Get your RGII man back out to check it out and pump it up again with a car tyre pump and also check the air valve is not leaking on the pressure vessel too.

Its a simple 10 - 15 miniute job. Or there abouts.

cupcakes15

scudo2 wrote: »

Red expansion vessel is proberly flat and full of water rather than air which absorbes the pressure rather than the safety valve having to discharge it.
Get your RGII man back out to check it out and pump it up again with a car tyre pump and also check the air valve is not leaking on the pressure vessel too.

Its a simple 10 - 15 miniute job. Or there abouts.

Thank you very much .. I wish you were here doing the job..he here at the min so hopefully we will get sorted .. I'll be back with a report

cupcakes15

cupcakes15 wrote: »

Ok.. He actually coming out now to look at it again .. Should I expect him to ask me for more money ?? I paid 180 quid yesterday

Tradesmen can make mistakes, it's how they deal with them that counts. I don't charge my customers for my on the job training so if I made a mistake it would be reflected in the bill.

Although your RGI may have missed the cause he hasn't caused it, so if there are other issues then unfortunately that will lead to further repair costs, re-pressurising the expansion vessel should of been dealt with and be part of a good service so there should be no charge for that if that's all that's required, if the expansion vessel is defective it should of been identified during a service but replacement would incur further charges.

The other thing that should be taken in to account is the quality of your heating water, you must confirm your water is clean and has inhibitor in it for the longevity of your boiler, losing water like this can have a negative impact on your system water which can lead to financial Armageddon:eek:

cupcakes15

gary71 wrote: »

Tradesmen can make mistakes, it's how they deal with them that counts. I don't charge my customers for my on the job training so if I made a mistake it would be reflected in the bill.

Although your RGI may have missed the cause he hasn't caused it, so if there are other issues then unfortunately that will lead to further repair costs, re-pressurising the expansion vessel should of been dealt with and be part of a good service so there should be no charge for that if that's all that's required, if the expansion vessel is defective it should of been identified during a service but replacement would incur further charges.

The other thing that should be taken in to account is the quality of your heating water, you must confirm your water is clean and has inhibitor in it for the longevity of your boiler, losing water like this can have a negative impact on your system water which can lead to financial Armageddon:eek:

So the rgi man was back and looked at the system again .. He said there was air trapped which he sorted and off he went .. But the pressure has dropped right down so low that I have to reset the boiler ..at my wits end with this whole thing ..could you suggest the next move .. I can't keep bringing people in and paying and not getting sorted .. So I want to do the right thing ..

cupcakes15

cupcakes15 wrote: »

So the rgi man was back and looked at the system again .. He said there was air trapped which he sorted and off he went .. But the pressure has dropped right down so low that I have to reset the boiler ..at my wits end with this whole thing ..could you suggest the next move .. I can't keep bringing people in and paying and not getting sorted .. So I want to do the right thing ..

Would either of you guys take it on to fix it or could I even call ye ?

cupcakes15

cupcakes15 wrote: »

So the rgi man was back and looked at the system again .. He said there was air trapped which he sorted and off he went .. But the pressure has dropped right down so low that I have to reset the boiler ..at my wits end with this whole thing ..could you suggest the next move .. I can't keep bringing people in and paying and not getting sorted .. So I want to do the right thing ..

Your fault is a simplistic one for a good RGI, my advice hasn't changed call Presision and ask them for someone in your area that can deal with your particular fault.

K.Flyer

cupcakes15 wrote: »

So the rgi man was back and looked at the system again .. He said there was air trapped which he sorted and off he went .. But the pressure has dropped right down so low that I have to reset the boiler ..at my wits end with this whole thing ..could you suggest the next move .. I can't keep bringing people in and paying and not getting sorted .. So I want to do the right thing ..

Did you have to pay him again??

cupcakes15

gary71 wrote: »

Your fault is a simplistic one for a good RGI, my advice hasn't changed call Presision and ask them for someone in your area that can deal with your particular fault.

Ok so ...he mentioned maybe a leak in the house .. Would this be something in your opinion that would come on all if a sudden ? And would it cause the pressure to drop all of a sudden too ?

cupcakes15

K.Flyer wrote: »

Did you have to pay him again??

No .. In fairness he was a very nice man and was adamant going off that the problem was solved.

K.Flyer

If the system pressure has been restored, and the pressure has fallen away within a day it is usually indicative of a leak in the system somewhere which will need to be investigated.

Edit:
Is the water still dripping from the pipe at the side of your house?

cupcakes15

K.Flyer wrote: »

If the system pressure has been restored, and the pressure has fallen away within a day it is usually indicative of a leak in the system somewhere which will need to be investigated.

Edit:
Is the water still dripping from the pipe at the side of your house?

No it doesn't seem to be since he left .. What should be my next move now ?? Is there any point in calling him back ??

shane0007

What part of the country are you located?

cupcakes15

shane0007 wrote: »

What part of the country are you located?

Dublin .. Could you be of any help ?

K.Flyer

Lets try something first...
Open the valve in the hot press to refill the system again.
Only fill the system to 1.0 - 1.5 bar no more.
Re-set and turn on your heating and leave to run.
Watch your pressure gauge on boiler and check to see if it starts to increase in pressure and if it goes over 2.0 - 2.5 bar.
If it does climb over 2.0 - 2.5 watch the pipe outside for water dripping.
It may start dripping after 2.5 - 3.0.
If this happens it points towards an expansion vessel problem.
If none of the above and the pressure drops away then the system is leaking somewhere.

cupcakes15

cupcakes15 wrote: »

Ok so ...he mentioned maybe a leak in the house .. Would this be something in your opinion that would come on all if a sudden ? And would it cause the pressure to drop all of a sudden too ?

Safety valves (original fault) leaking are usually a indication of over pressurisation from either a defective or under pressurised expansion vessel, a filling loop passing or water contamination in the system water.

Air or leaks will not have any impact on the valve other than to increase the likelihood of system contamination(sludge) which can dramatically reduce the longevity of a gas boiler.

You need to find a RGI who can do his/her job properly, if you have a leak on your system and you are unable to deal with it you must then fit a magnetic filter to protect your boiler or we're back to our financial Armageddon situation again over time.

Your issues can be easily dealt with by the right RGI, there are good ones out there and Presision should know who are good on their boilers.

cupcakes15

K.Flyer wrote: »

Lets try something first...
Open the valve in the hot press to refill the system again.
Only fill the system to 1.0 - 1.5 bar no more.
Re-set and turn on your heating and leave to run.
Watch your pressure gauge on boiler and check to see if it starts to increase in pressure and if it goes over 2.0 - 2.5 bar.
If it does climb over 2.0 - 2.5 watch the pipe outside for water dripping.
It may start dripping after 2.5 - 3.0.
If this happens it points towards an expansion vessel problem.
If none of the above and the pressure drops away then the system is leaking somewhere.

Ok .. I've pressed reset and the bar is at 1.3.. I just turned the heating back on ..I will monitor it well and be back to you in a while .. Thanks for the advice ...

cupcakes15

cupcakes15 wrote: »

Ok .. I've pressed reset and the bar is at 1.3.. I just turned the heating back on ..I will monitor it well and be back to you in a while .. Thanks for the advice ...

Heating has been going for a while now .. At 2.8 currently and the pipe is vertically dry outside .. I'm almost afraid to ask but does it look like a leak ?? And what to do now ?? A value that rests the pressure when it drops was mentioned to me .. Would you have any opinion on that ??

cupcakes15

cupcakes15 wrote: »

Heating has been going for a while now .. At 2.8 currently and the pipe is vertically dry outside .. I'm almost afraid to ask but does it look like a leak ?? And what to do now ?? A value that rests the pressure when it drops was mentioned to me .. Would you have any opinion on that ??

gary71 wrote: »

Your fault is a simplistic one for a good RGI, my advice hasn't changed call Presision and ask them for someone in your area that can deal with your particular fault.

You must deal with the expansion vessel issue first then look for other faults.

K.Flyer

It does appear to be an expansion vessel issue, however there may be other issues at play.
As Gary says, give precision a call tomorrow and they will get it sorted for you.
Also, the level of inhibitor in the system may be depleted from the pressure losses, ask whoever comes out to put a bottle of it into the system while he is at it.

cupcakes15

K.Flyer wrote: »

It does appear to be an expansion vessel issue, however there may be other issues at play.
As Gary says, give precision a call tomorrow and they will get it sorted for you.
Also, the level of inhibitor in the system may be depleted from the pressure losses, ask whoever comes out to put a bottle of it into the system while he is at it.

Ok so .. Thank you again .. I can't fadom why the rgi man didn't pick up on a expansion problem .. I googling leak detection company's at the min ..would precision be able to look into that if it were the case ?

cupcakes15

cupcakes15 wrote: »

Ok so .. Thank you again .. I can't fadom why the rgi man didn't pick up on a expansion problem .. I googling leak detection company's at the min ..would precision be able to look into that if necessary ??

touts

cupcakes15 wrote: »

No .. In fairness he was a very nice man and was adamant going off that the problem was solved.

The best conmen are always very nice. I think at this stage he either doesnt have a clue what he is doing or he is taking you for a ride. Give him the benefit of the doubt and phone him asking him to come and fix it but make it clear that you wont be paying him a third time for the same job. I have had experience with a guy like that and everyone in the area thought he was a nice guy until it turned out he had overcharged lots of people with exactly the same tactic this guy is trying with you. In the end no one would hire him and last I heard he had moved to Australia.

K.Flyer

cupcakes15 wrote: »

Ok so .. Thank you again .. I can't fadom why the rgi man didn't pick up on a expansion problem .. I googling leak detection company's at the min ..would precision be able to look into that if it were the case ?

I would not be calling any leak detection companies just yet.
Let the guy from precision out to look at it. The vessel may only need to be repressurised and that will be the end of the issue. Its fairly common that the vessel is not checked properly by some during the routine service and then this type of problem occurs.

cupcakes15

the heating is off approx 45 mins and the pressure is at 1.5 right now..i wonder is the problem solved or is it too early to say

i prob should say it doesnt seem to be dropping as fast now.. but then again maybe its me ...i am obsessed with it at the min !

scudo2

cupcakes15 wrote: »

the heating is off approx 45 mins and the pressure is at 1.5 right now..i wonder is the problem solved or is it too early to say

No as the pressure shouldn't have gone to 2.8 bar which is a bit hi in my opinion. I would expect 2 max.
Did your man drain the heating and FULLY pump up pressure vessel as only pumping a bit of air is not a proper job.

K.Flyer

The pressure reading on the boiler should not increase by more than 0.5 of a bar from cold to full temperature. Yours more than doubled and that would indicate to that there is still an issue.
As the system reaches 3.0 bar the safety valves opens to release pressure to protect the system. In doing so, it allows some water to leave the system. This loss of water will show a reduction in the system pressure when it is cold. Sometimes after opening the safety valve does not close fully and will have a slow drip, further reducing the pressure in the system until the gauge reads zero.

cupcakes15

scudo2 wrote: »

No as the pressure shouldn't have gone to 2.8 bar which is a bit hi in my opinion. I would expect 2 max.
Did your man drain the heating and FULLY pump up pressure vessel as only pumping a bit of air is not a proper job.

no he didnt drain the system at all ..its off now a good hour and half and its at 1.2 ...what do you make of that ? does it give all the indications that its not a leak but an expansion problem ??

cupcakes15

K.Flyer wrote: »

The pressure reading on the boiler should not increase by more than 0.5 of a bar from cold to full temperature. Yours more than doubled and that would indicate to that there is still an issue.
As the system reaches 3.0 bar the safety valves opens to release pressure to protect the system. In doing so, it allows some water to leave the system. This loss of water will show a reduction in the system pressure when it is cold. Sometimes after opening the safety valve does not close fully and will have a slow drip, further reducing the pressure in the system until the gauge reads zero.

the mind boggles as to what it is.. im a kind of happy it didnt drop so much that i had to reset it again..its currently at 1.2...i have sent a mail to precision heating for a call back in the morn...i will be looking for someone pacific to that boiler ??

scudo2

cupcakes15 wrote: »

no he didnt drain the system at all ..its off now a good hour and half and its at 1.2 ...what do you make of that ? does it give all the indications that its not a leak but an expansion problem ??

It Indicates that your pressure vessel is still probarly 90% full of water allowing no room for expanision of the heating water.
Service man should have put a hose on the heating, droping the pressure to 0 and pump up pressure vessel to 1.25 bar with air while leaving the hose open allowing the excess water from vessel to freely drain out. When balloon in pressure is fully inflated to the full volume of vessel only then should the hose be removed and water end re filled to 1.25 bar.
This gives you the full volume of the pressure vessel to act like a cushon for the extra water expansion when heated, if that all makes sence. And should have been checked and done on the first call.

And no. Before u ask. I'm in Cork.

cupcakes15

scudo2 wrote: »

It Indicates that your pressure vessel is still probarly 90% full of water allowing no room for expanision of the heating water.
Service man should have put a hose on the heating, droping the pressure to 0 and pump up pressure vessel to 1.25 bar with air while leaving the hose open allowing the excess water from vessel to freely drain out. When balloon in pressure is fully inflated to the full volume of vessel only then should the hose be removed and water end re filled to 1.25 bar.
This gives you the full volume of the pressure vessel to act like a cushon for the extra water expansion when heated, if that all makes sence. And should have been checked and done on the first

And no. Before u ask. I'm in Cork.

you certainly know what your talking about..thanks for the info..i will be looking for someone as knowledgable as yourself ....

Billy Bunting

cupcakes15 wrote: »

you certainly know what your talking about..thanks for the info..i will be looking for someone as knowledgable as yourself ....

Ah!!! before ya go, dont forget the donation

cupcakes15

Billy Bunting wrote: »

Ah!!! before ya go, dont forget the donation

lol !! its winging its way to Cork as i type !!!! on the serious side i would gladly pay good money to be sorted ..this business of paying out 180 quid (59 for service of boiler) kills me as i still not sorted :D

K.Flyer

cupcakes15 wrote: »

lol !! its winging its way to Cork as i type !!!! on the serious side i would gladly pay good money to be sorted ..this business of paying out 180 quid (59 for service of boiler) kills me as i still not sorted :D

59 euro for a service, and 120 for a safety valve and still not right.:rolleyes:

cupcakes15

K.Flyer wrote: »

59 euro for a service, and 120 for a safety valve and still not right.:rolleyes:

I know .. What can I do ?? It's so annoying .👿

shane0007

It boils down to not servicing the boiler as per manufacturer's instructions.
The heating system does not have to be drained down, just the boiler which is a simple process for that boiler. Before draining, sticking a pin in the schrader valve will indicate whether the expansion vessel diaphragm is split or not. If not, the boiler is drained & pressure checked & re-pressurised to 1.0 bar.
Whether this is the issue or not, it should have been carried out as part of the service.
If the vessel has no air or is split, the safety valve would most likely not have been required to have been replaced. It was just doing it's job!

What part of Dublin are you in?

lensman

my Vokera boiler is doing the same thing, 2 new safety valves fitted towards the end of last winter didn't fix the problem, I pressed in the nipple on the vessel & water came out so going to fit an external expansion vessel, much easier & far less expensive. BTW safety valves are €15 for my boiler €120 seems way too expensive, more like €30 for the viessmann

cupcakes15

lensman wrote: »

my Vokera boiler is doing the same thing, 2 new safety valves fitted towards the end of last winter didn't fix the problem, I pressed in the nipple on the vessel & water came out so going to fit an external expansion vessel, much easier & far less expensive. BTW safety valves are €15 for my boiler €120 seems way too expensive, more like €30 for the viessmann

thank you very much for all the advise..i really thought this eve we were gettiing sorted as the pressure didnt drop too much when the heating went off but i noticed just now that it has dropped to 1.1 even though the system is off since 7.30...i dont know what i should do now..get precision out or a leak detector crowd

shane0007

The system will drop gradually as the system will still be cooling.
Either way you need an RGI to test the vessel.

cupcakes15

shane0007 wrote: »

The system will drop gradually as the system will still be cooling.
Either way you need an RGI to test the vessel.

I making few calls in the morn .. What in your opinion is an acceptable bar to be at .. It's currently at 1.1 bar and heating off 2 and half hours ..

scudo2

cupcakes15 wrote: »

thank you very much for all the advise..i really thought this eve we were gettiing sorted as the pressure didnt drop too much when the heating went off but i noticed just now that it has dropped to 1.1 even though the system is off since 7.30...i dont know what i should do now..get precision out or a leak detector crowd

Forget leak detection and go by what the other good guys have said and recomended in MHO.
Ta to all.

cupcakes15

scudo2 wrote: »

Forget leak detection and go by what the other good guys have said and recomended in MHO.
Ta to all.

Thank you. 😉

shane0007

cupcakes15 wrote: »

I making few calls in the morn .. What in your opinion is an acceptable bar to be at .. It's currently at 1.1 bar and heating off 2 and half hours ..

It would depend on what it was set to when completely cold & did any water exit the safety valve when it went back to nearly 3 bar.
If the pressure rose significantly during its last firing, it's an expansion issue not a leak issue. Leaks also do not cause the safety valve to leak, pressure does. Temperature & pressure are directly related so as the temp rises, so does the pressure. If the vessel cannot compensate for this rise in pressure, the next level of safety kicks in, i.e. the pressure operated safety valve.

Where your last RGI failed you was that he never tested this as a matter of course during his routine service of the boiler.

cupcakes15

shane0007 wrote: »

It would depend on what it was set to when completely cold & did any water exit the safety valve when it went back to nearly 3 bar.
If the pressure rose significantly during its last firing, it's an expansion issue not a leak issue. Leaks also do not cause the safety valve to leak, pressure does. Temperature & pressure are directly related so as the temp rises, so does the pressure. If the vessel cannot compensate for this rise in pressure, the next level of safety kicks in, i.e. the pressure operated safety valve.

Where your last RGI failed you was that he never tested this as a matter of course during his routine service of the boiler.

Thanks again Shane .. As silly as this sounds I would rather have an expansion problem than a leak ..will hopefully get sorted by tomorrow eve