Autumn Internationals 2013 General Discussion

ScissorPaperRock

Date|Fixture|Irish Time
|

Week 1

|
Sat 2 Nov|England v Australia|14:30
|

Week 2

|
Sat 9 Nov|Italy v Australia|14:00
Sat 9 Nov|England v Argentina|14:30
Sat 9 Nov|Scotland v Japan|14:30
Sat 9 Nov|Wales v South Africa|17:30
Sat 9 Nov|Ireland v Samoa|17:45
Sat 9 Nov|France v New Zealand|20:00
|

Week 3

|
Sat 16 Nov|Italy v Fiji|14:00
Sat 16 Nov|England v New Zealand|14:30
Sat 16 Nov|Wales v Argentina|14:30
Sat 16 Nov|France v Tonga|17:00
Sat 16 Nov|Ireland v Australia|17:45
Sun 17 Nov|Scotland v South Africa|15:00
|

Week 4

|
Fri 22 Nov|Wales v Tonga|19:30
Sat 23 Nov|Italy v Argentina|14:00
Sat 23 Nov|Scotland v Australia|18:00
Sat 23 Nov|France v South Africa|20:00
Sun 24 Nov|Ireland v New Zealand|14:00
|

Week 5

|
Sat 30 Nov|Wales v Australia|17:00

With the Autumn Internationals just a few weeks away I thought it would be a good time to set up a general discussion thread. I'm fairly useless at predictions, but here goes!

I think Ireland should be expect to beat Samoa, should really be targeting Australia, and from there... who knows. There are certainly exciting times ahead with a new coach, and hopefully some new philosophies for the team, but the NZ match might be a few games too soon into the tenure of our new coach to expect a victory.

Elsewhere, hopefully Italy will kick on from a fairly successful Six Nations, and should target Argentina and Fiji at least. Wales should be looking to win three of their four matches, but I'm not sure if they'll be able to crack the nut that is South Africa. England can beat anyone on their day, as they showed vs the All Blacks in the AIs last year. Their match-up with NZ this year will be particularly interesting, given that it will be a grudge match from the NZ perspective. It's hard to imagine a repeat of last year's match, but I certainly wouldn't mind seeing Manu Tuilagi ripping it up again, if he recovers from injury in time. Similarly, France can beat anyone on their day, but they've been in a bit of a dark place of late. Their first match against NZ should be a jolt to the system, but it's hard to see past a NZ win based on recent form, despite the reputation of the 'unpredictable' French. Finally, Scotland should hope to beat Japan, but I think South Africa and Australia will be out of their reach, despite the latter's poor form of late.

Some really great match-ups, exciting times ahead!

Swiwi.

Manu Tualagi is out injured as far as I'm aware. I'm very disappointed, as you can imagine. Devastating really. Also, litmus test for Argentina. They HAVE to beat Italy, but they should target a win over Wales too. England might be a step too far.

ScissorPaperRock

Swiwi. wrote: »

Manu Tualagi is out injured as far as I'm aware. I'm very disappointed, as you can imagine. Devastating really. Also, litmus test for Argentina. They HAVE to beat Italy, but they should target a win over Wales too. England might be a step too far.

Oh I didn't realise he was out for that long. I'm sure you're crying yourself to sleep at night!

Italy - Argentina will be an interesting one, but they're in a similar place really. But with Argentina facing stiff opposition in the RC, they might have this one. They're certainly starting to show some good hands at times, and are strong up front, but the battle of the forwards will be interesting. I don't know about Argentina beating Wales or England, tbh.

Swiwi.

ScissorPaperRoc wrote: »

Oh I didn't realise he was out for that long. I'm sure you're crying yourself to sleep at night!

Italy - Argentina will be an interesting one, but they're in a similar place really. But with Argentina facing stiff opposition in the RC, they might have this one. They're certainly starting to show some good hands at times, and are strong up front, but the battle of the forwards will be interesting. I don't know about Argentina beating Wales or England, tbh.

They have a poor record v England. But I reckon the Welsh are beatable - their forwards are over-rated, especially front 5 (where Argentina is very strong), but it's a matter of whether Argentina can restrain North etc, and also manufacture some of their own tries which was a low-point for them in the RC. The Welsh could have problems with the halves too, Phillips being slow and all, and no settled 10.

Swiwi.

France squad:

Forwards: Thomas Domingo (Clermont), Yannick Forestier (Castres), Benjamin Kayser (Clermont), Dimitri Szarzewski (Racing-Métro), Nicolas Mas (Montpellier), Rabah Slimani (Stade Français), Alexandre Flanquart (Stade Français), Yoann Maestri (Toulouse), Pascal Papé (Stade Français), Sébastien Vahaamahina (Perpignan), Thierry Dusautoir (Toulouse, cap), Bernard Le Roux (Racing-Métro), Yannick Nyanga (Toulouse), Fulgence Ouedraogo (Montpellier), Damien Chouly (Clermont), Louis Picamoles (Toulouse).

Backs: Jean-Marc Doussain (Toulouse), Maxime Machenaud (Racing-Métro), Morgan Parra (Clermont), Camille Lopez (Perpignan), Rémi Talès (Castres), Mathieu Bastareaud (Toulon), Gaël Fickou (Toulouse), Wesley Fofana (Clermont), Florian Fritz (Toulouse), Maxime Mermoz (Toulon), Maxime Médard (Toulouse), Sofiane Guitoune (Perpignan), Brice Dulin (Castres), Yoann Huget (Toulouse).

Maybe thomond2006 or BoarHunter can enlighten us on Rabah Slimani & Sofiane Guitone. Neither name strikes fear into my heart (Sofiane sounds like a girl's name...), but they obviously have been playing well in the Top 14. Trinh-Duc seems to be to PSA what Cooper was to Robbie Deans.

thomond2006

Slimani - young tighthead prop for Stade Francais. He recently signed a long term deal so Stade obviously rate him highly.

Guitoune - Perpignan winger, ex-Agen. Scoring lots of tries in the Top14.

French fans are going mad that Pelissié (scrum-half) has been left out. He's been a revelation for Montpellier, he joined from Grenoble in the summer. Also Xavier Chiocci, young Toulon loosehead, not getting a look in.

Swiwi.

danthefan wrote: »

Only watched the first half, I like Argentina but I'm glad Aus got the win. I think the game as a whole is much better off with strong international sides, there's no benefit to anyone if Aus become also-rans.

They still have a lot of injuries too don't they? Just off the top of my head, Ioane, Higginbotham, Pocock were all out.

In answer to your query Dan, with regards to the AIs

Not considered for selection: Kurtley Beale (shoulder); Anthony Fainga’a (shoulder); Kyle Goodwin (shoulder); James Hanson (neck); Scott Higginbotham (shoulder); Pat McCabe (neck); Hugh McMeniman (shoulder); Jesse Mogg (shoulder); Wycliff Palu (knee); David Pocock (knee); Hugh Pyle (shoulder); Jake Schatz (knee).

Ioane has gone to France so he is ineligible. Henry Speight still not yet qualified.

Beale, Higginbotham, Pocock as a minimum would be candidates for First XV selection, and are all good players, so they are are somewhat injury-ravaged at present.

duckysauce

Samoa squad:

Forwards: Ole Avei, Ti'i Paulo, Census Johnston, Sakaria Taulafo, Logovii Mulipola, James Johnston, Viliamu Afatia, Teofilo Paulo, Daniel Leo, Piula Faasalele, Joe Tekori, Faatiga Lemalu, Maurie Faasavalu, Ofisa Treviranus, Jack Lam, Taiasina Tuifua, Faifili Levave.

Backs: Kahn Fotualii, Jeremy Su'a, Tusi Pisi, Patrick Faapale, George Pisi, Johnny Leota, Paul Williams, Isaia Tuifua, David Lemi, Alapati Leiua, Sinoti Sinoti, Brando Vaaulu, Faatoina Autagavaia.


Going to be one hard hitting test.

Swiwi.

When does Schmidt announce his Irish squad? The NZ squad is named this Sunday.

bilston

Swiwi. wrote: »

When does Schmidt announce his Irish squad? The NZ squad is named this Sunday.

Probably after Rd 2 of the HEC. Although I think it is sometimes announced between Rounds 1 and 2 which I always thought was a little bit strange.

I wonder if there will be any new Irish caps this Autumn. There were that many last season and there isn't a lot of room for experiment against Samoa, Australia and NZ that I wouldn't be surprised if there were none. There may be one or two in the training squad though. Guys like James Cronin and Mike Allen have put their hands up but LH and wing are very competitive positions.

Swiwi.

bilston wrote: »

Probably after Rd 2 of the HEC. Although I think it is sometimes announced between Rounds 1 and 2 which I always thought was a little bit strange.

I wonder if there will be any new Irish caps this Autumn. There were that many last season and there isn't a lot of room for experiment against Samoa, Australia and NZ that I wouldn't be surprised if there were none. There may be one or two in the training squad though. Guys like James Cronin and Mike Allen have put their hands up but LH and wing are very competitive positions.

Yeah, I'm looking very forward to both squad announcements TBH. I hope Schmidt takes a gamble or two. I mean the back-up to Healy could be one of the young 'uns for example.

Hansen has hinted there will be one or 2 new selections for NZ - almost certainly at hooker and maybe Ardie Savea.

Gerry91

England v Australia first up looking forward to seeing England's selection

Assume Wade will be in pole position to start wing? Will Foden start? Haven't been following Aviva that closely so not all that up to date on form and the likes with everyone

Tait should really be worth a go 13 or even 15 but think he's on the elite squad. Most talented back they have no question in my mind riddled with injuries. Flood or Farrell oh?

Swiwi.

Gerry91 wrote: »

England v Australia first up looking forward to seeing England's selection

Assume Wade will be in pole position to start wing? Will Foden start? Haven't been following Aviva that closely so not all that up to date on form and the likes with everyone

Tait should really be worth a go 13 or even 15 but think he's on the elite squad. Most talented back they have no question in my mind riddled with injuries. Flood or Farrell oh?

Farrell with Burns as back-up? If Australia can resist the English scrum, they'll fancy their chances.

English Lurker

Gerry91 wrote: »

England v Australia first up looking forward to seeing England's selection

Assume Wade will be in pole position to start wing? Will Foden start? Haven't been following Aviva that closely so not all that up to date on form and the likes with everyone

Tait should really be worth a go 13 or even 15 but think he's on the elite squad. Most talented back they have no question in my mind riddled with injuries. Flood or Farrell oh?

Wade's been in so-so form at the start of this season, while Ashton and Marland Yarde have started very strongly so I doubt he'll start.

I'd like Foden to start, he's got his form back, but Mike Brown is also in form and Lancaster likes Goode.

Tait's injured again - and yes, so is Tuilagi too as far as I know. The England management are already talking about alternatives. And while I'd like anyone but Farrell, I know my wish will not be granted.

ScissorPaperRock

Swiwi. wrote: »

Yeah, I'm looking very forward to both squad announcements TBH. I hope Schmidt takes a gamble or two. I mean the back-up to Healy could be one of the young 'uns for example.

Hansen has hinted there will be one or 2 new selections for NZ - almost certainly at hooker and maybe Ardie Savea.

I can't imagine the 30 man training squad will too far removed from that we saw announced around this time last year, apart from a few forced changes here and there. I'd say it'll look something like:

Rory Best
Mike Sherry

Cian Healy
Stephen Archer
David Kilcoyne
Mike Ross

Devin Toner
Paul O'Connell
Iain Henderson
Mike McCarthy
Donnacha Ryan
Dan Tuohy

Sean O'Brien
Jamie Heaslip
Chris Henry
Peter O'Mahony
Kevin McLaughlin

Eoin Reddan
Conor Murray

Paddy Jackson (would be my choice)
Jonathan Sexton

Luke Marshall
Gordon D'Arcy
Brian O'Driscoll
Stuart Olding

Keith Earls
Luke Fitzgerald
Simon Zebo
Tommy Bowe
Rob Kearney

Main people losing out (IMO) if this were the squad: Madigan, McFadden, Gilroy and Trimble. Would be a pity if Henshaw and Marmion didn't have some involvement too.

Could also see three outhalves being involved rather than two I suppose. The selection for backup outhalf is definitely going to be a contentious one though.

RoundBox11

I reckon well see the following squad:

Healy, Kilcoyne, Ross, Fitzpatrick, Archer

Best, Cronin, Sherry

POC, Ryan, McCarthy, Henderson, Tuohy

POM, SOB, Heaslip, Henry

Murray, Reddan

Sexton, Madigan, Jackson

Marshall, BOD, McFadden, Cave

Bowe, Zebo, Kearney, Earls

Im expecting the usual false outrage over no uncapped players but there's lots of new young players with only a handful of caps. I think thatd be a decent squad. Weak at scrum half, shallow enough in the backs in general.

ScissorPaperRock

It'll be interesting to see how Madigan and Keatley go tomorrow, but Jackson certainly did his chances of selection no harm tonight. 5/6 off the tee and some great tactical kicking.

Fireball07

Would there not be 3 SHs included?

I'd pick a 33-man squad for the 3 tests...

Best, Sherry, Cronin

Healy, Kilcoyne, Court/Cronin/McGrath/Wilkinson

Ross, Archer, Fitzpatrick

O'Connell, Henderson, Ryan, O'Callaghan

POM, SOB, Heaslip, Henry, McLaughlin

Murray, Boss, Marmion

Sexton, Jackson, Madigan

BOD, D'Arcy, Marshall, Olding

Earls, Zebo, R. Kearney, Bowe, Gilroy/Luke Fitz




Unlikely to be exactly that, Marmion probably won't be included for one. If it was me picking, I'd pick Cronin (probably my Munster bias) and Gilroy (Fitz just back from injury).

ScissorPaperRock

Of the Irish outhalves that played this weekend, it has to be said that Jackson put his hand up for selection. Keatley was unimpressive tbh, and although Madigan was held back by a solid performance from Gopperth, his chances of selection can't have been helped.

Cronin also had a great game, and has a great season overall so far. Sherry didn't have a perfect game today, and although he's had good games, I think Cronin might be pushing ahead.

Delighted to see Moore doing well today too, though I'm not sure who's ahead in the Moore v Archer competition.

Zebo might be out for some time, but tbh, he hasn't laid down a marker this season. Trimble would also need to up his game. McFadden put in an excellent shift today, and Earls has looked good so far. So there are interesting choices to be made there.

Fireball07

Slight amendment to the 33-man squad listed above after Saturday's games.

If Ross is out, I expect Moore to be chosen. What's the story with Fitzpatrick, is he injured?

We could end up seeing a Moore/Hagan/Archer trio... would be a toss-up to see who starts. Would have said Archer, but Moore was very impressive today and if he does well next week, it could push him into the driving seat.

A lot of people are touting Toner...I don't know if he'll bring 5 locks. I picked DOC as I still think he's class, do people think Toner will edge ahead of him? There's also McCarthy and Tuohy, although I think Toner has been ahead of him on current form. Ryan has done well too, as he needed to do. Henderson/Ryan will be a close call, I think, could see them alternating.

Locky did well today, definitely would include him.

Definitely would go for Murray/Boss/Marmion and Sexton/Jackson/Madigan, Jackson one of the big winners of the weekend.


If Zebo is injured, I expect both Gilroy and Luke Fitz will be included, where I had it as an either/or before. McFadden is also a possiblity because of his versatility, but maybe he'll just be included anyway, as a 34th member?

Re: Wales and the Out Half shirt.

Priestland had a serious performance yesterday against Quins. I personally have never rated the guy, but at RWC11 he was solid and clever beyond his normal abilities. If yesterday is a fair impression of his game right now, he'll be starting at 10 and pulling strings in that Welsh backline.

As an aside. Scarlet's scrum half was electric yesterday. Young guy, fresh out of U20s last season I think. An actual scrum half though and not the 4th flanker that Wales usually play. Would be very interesting to see if he gets involved somewhere in the AI's. A pacy 9 could completely change the Welsh game.

ScissorPaperRock

Fireball07 wrote: »

If Ross is out, I expect Moore to be chosen. What's the story with Fitzpatrick, is he injured?

We could end up seeing a Moore/Hagan/Archer trio... would be a toss-up to see who starts. Would have said Archer, but Moore was very impressive today and if he does well next week, it could push him into the driving seat.

A lot of people are touting Toner...I don't know if he'll bring 5 locks. I picked DOC as I still think he's class, do people think Toner will edge ahead of him? There's also McCarthy and Tuohy, although I think Toner has been ahead of him on current form. Ryan has done well too, as he needed to do. Henderson/Ryan will be a close call, I think, could see them alternating.

Locky did well today, definitely would include him.

Definitely would go for Murray/Boss/Marmion and Sexton/Jackson/Madigan, Jackson one of the big winners of the weekend.


If Zebo is injured, I expect both Gilroy and Luke Fitz will be included, where I had it as an either/or before. McFadden is also a possiblity because of his versatility, but maybe he'll just be included anyway, as a 34th member?

Fitzpatrick played on Friday, and I think the scrum went pretty well IIRC. I guess it would be him and then two of Archer/Hagan/Moore if Ross were out.

My original selection was pretty lock-heavy. If it was a choice of four it would probably be Henderson, POC, then two of Ryan/Toner/McCarthy. I'd say they've all edged ahead of DOC by now, given that he isn't starting anymore.

irishbucsfan

Henderson, POC and Ryan are definites. The 4th spot is interesting. Really depends how were going to approach the internationals.

Buer

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Henderson, POC and Ryan are definites. The 4th spot is interesting. Really depends how were going to approach the internationals.

I'd have to bring Toner in to be the last lock. In a game against a side like Samoa, he'd really excel, just as he did when he had his first international start against them. He took apart their dodgy set piece for fun.

The other three are definite but Ryan needs to rediscover the form that had people screaming for him to start ahead of DOC. He had a good game against Leinster but that was well above his other showings this season.

awec

ScissorPaperRock wrote: »

Of the Irish outhalves that played this weekend, it has to be said that Jackson put his hand up for selection. Keatley was unimpressive tbh, and although Madigan was held back by a solid performance from Gopperth, his chances of selection can't have been helped.

Cronin also had a great game, and has a great season overall so far. Sherry didn't have a perfect game today, and although he's had good games, I think Cronin might be pushing ahead.

Delighted to see Moore doing well today too, though I'm not sure who's ahead in the Moore v Archer competition.

Zebo might be out for some time, but tbh, he hasn't laid down a marker this season. Trimble would also need to up his game. McFadden put in an excellent shift today, and Earls has looked good so far. So there are interesting choices to be made there.

As things stand right now Jackson must be #2 behind Sexton.

bilston

awec wrote: »

As things stand right now Jackson must be #2 behind Sexton.

Probably but Id almost prefer Ireland to leave him alone for a few months. I just fear for the lad if he played in the Autumn and didnt go well. While his performances warranted some level of criticism last season it unfortunately reached hysterical proportions from certain quarters, probably because he was picked ahead of a national treasure. That critcism clearly affected him for the rest of the season and now that he has seemingly turned a corner I would hate for him to go backwards again. He is going to be a terrific player, of that I am certain, but a season of playing and hopefully winning for Ireland might do him no harm.

Then again if Keatley isnt doing enough to get selected and if Madigan isnt getting his game at Leinster Ireland will probably have to pick Jackson and ultimately I suppose Irelands interests have to come before the player.

ScissorPaperRock

awec wrote: »

As things stand right now Jackson must be #2 behind Sexton.

I would think so. The only thing is, I don't think he'd offer that much in terms of a change coming off the bench after Sexton, while Madigan is probably more of an impactful bench option. That being said, in the case of Sexton being injured early in a game, I'd rather see Jackson come on than Madigan. Similarly if Sexton couldn't start, I'd prefer to see Jackson start.

ScissorPaperRock

bilston wrote: »

Probably but Id almost prefer Ireland to leave him alone for a few months. I just fear for the lad if he played in the Autumn and didnt go well. While his performances warranted some level of criticism last season it unfortunately reached hysterical proportions from certain quarters, probably because he was picked ahead of a national treasure. That critcism clearly affected him for the rest of the season and now that he has seemingly turned a corner I would hate for him to go backwards again. He is going to be a terrific player, of that I am certain, but a season of playing and hopefully winning for Ireland might do him no harm.

Then again if Keatley isnt doing enough to get selected and if Madigan isnt getting his game at Leinster Ireland will probably have to pick Jackson and ultimately I suppose Irelands interests have to come before the player.

The good thing is that he has shown that he can bounce back. He got a lot of stick after the HEC final in 2012, and then was the subject of much outrage again in the Six Nations. But he bounced back, and to be selected again despite these criticisms would do a lot for his confidence too. He'll be resilient after all that, if nothing else!

freyners

Think marmion should be capped this autumn, even if its a sub appearance vs Samoa. Was again pure class at the weekend and has earned his shot at a place on the Ireland squad

shuffol

Another strong showing from McCarthy next weekend and he could be in contention for the AI's, he busted a gut a few times yesterday chasing and pressurising players, put in some big hits, carried intelligently off slow ball and is arguably the best practitioner of the choke tackle in the country. Tuohy's had some big games too the last few weeks but is prone to going missing in some games.

Swiwi.

According to PR Alex Corbisiero out of AIs :eek:

That is a massive blow for England if confirmed.

ScissorPaperRock

Swiwi. wrote: »

According to PR Alex Corbisiero out of AIs :eek:

That is a massive blow for England if confirmed.

That would be a massive blow alright. I haven't been watching Vunipola this season, but he didn't come across as the best scrummager during the Lions series IIRC.

Journeyman_1

ScissorPaperRock wrote: »

That would be a massive blow alright. I haven't been watching Vunipola this season, but he didn't come across as the best scrummager during the Lions series IIRC.

At least some of that was down to reffing decisions i think. There were a few odd choices made early, and it kinda escalated from there. Im not saying he's great or anything, but didnt seem as bad as some made out.

ssaye2

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/24543899


Full England squad:
Forwards (17):
Props: Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Alex Corbisiero (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), David Wilson (Bath Rugby) Hookers: Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers). Locks: David Attwood (Bath Rugby), Joe Launchbury (London Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers), Back-rows: Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs), Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby), Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints).
Backs (17):
Back three: Chris Ashton (Saracens), Mike Brown (Harlequins), Ben Foden (Northampton Saints), Alex Goode (Saracens), Christian Wade (London Wasps), Marland Yarde (London Irish) Centres: Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints), Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby), Henry Trinder (Gloucester Rugby), Joel Tomkins (Saracens), Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby) Fly-halves: Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby), Owen Farrell (Saracens), Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers) Scrum-halves: Danny Care (Harlequins), Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers).

bilston

ssaye2 wrote: »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/24543899


Full England squad:
Forwards (17):
Props: Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Alex Corbisiero (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), David Wilson (Bath Rugby) Hookers: Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers). Locks: David Attwood (Bath Rugby), Joe Launchbury (London Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers), Back-rows: Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs), Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby), Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints).
Backs (17):
Back three: Chris Ashton (Saracens), Mike Brown (Harlequins), Ben Foden (Northampton Saints), Alex Goode (Saracens), Christian Wade (London Wasps), Marland Yarde (London Irish) Centres: Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints), Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby), Henry Trinder (Gloucester Rugby), Joel Tomkins (Saracens), Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby) Fly-halves: Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby), Owen Farrell (Saracens), Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers) Scrum-halves: Danny Care (Harlequins), Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers).

How has Will Fraser been going with Saracens this season? I've always been impressed by him.

Is Kvesic a 6 or a 7? I remember being impressed by him when he was on the England U20 side.

Swiwi.

ScissorPaperRock wrote: »

That would be a massive blow alright. I haven't been watching Vunipola this season, but he didn't come across as the best scrummager during the Lions series IIRC.

The Aussie props actually got the better of Cole & Marler last November, so I'd imagine we will see Cole & Vunipola. If Aussie can get scrum parity, I'd rate them a good chance to win. Should be a good match.

Swiwi.

ssaye2 wrote: »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/24543899


Full England squad:
Forwards (17):
Props: Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Alex Corbisiero (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), David Wilson (Bath Rugby) Hookers: Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers). Locks: David Attwood (Bath Rugby), Joe Launchbury (London Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers), Back-rows: Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs), Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby), Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints).
Backs (17):
Back three: Chris Ashton (Saracens), Mike Brown (Harlequins), Ben Foden (Northampton Saints), Alex Goode (Saracens), Christian Wade (London Wasps), Marland Yarde (London Irish) Centres: Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints), Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby), Henry Trinder (Gloucester Rugby), Joel Tomkins (Saracens), Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby) Fly-halves: Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby), Owen Farrell (Saracens), Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers) Scrum-halves: Danny Care (Harlequins), Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers).

It's a solid squad, back three and halves should be competitive, and the backrow combination chosen will be interesting to see.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Lacking top class international quality at centre and backrow imo

Swiwi.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

Lacking top class international quality at centre and backrow imo

England hasn't had great centres for a while now. OK, Tualagi has his moments, but he's not a patch on O'Driscoll or Smith.

I don't recognise all the players selected for England, but do they have an out-and-out 7 in their squad?

Buer

Swiwi. wrote: »

I don't recognise all the players selected for England, but do they have an out-and-out 7 in their squad?

Matt Kvesic although I'd expect Robshaw to still get the nod there. He's only 21 though so has plenty of time.

Wood, Robshaw and Morgan is a pretty strong back row. Lacking in anyone world class class but they're able for most on their day.

ssaye2

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

Lacking top class international quality at centre and backrow imo

English and Irish Combo for hypothetical against NZ in NOV if fit

Healy
Best
Cole
POC
Parling
SOB
Robshaw
Heaslip

Foden
Bowe
BOD
Marshall
Ashton
Sexton
Murray

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

ssaye2 wrote: »

English and Irish Combo for hypothetical against NZ in NOV if fit

Healy
Best
Cole
POC
Parling
SOB
Robshaw
Heaslip

Foden
Bowe
BOD
Marshall
Ashton
Sexton
Murray

Healy
Youngs
Cole
POC
Parling
POM
SOB
Heaslip
Murray
Sexton
Earls
Marshall
BOD
Bowe
Kearney

And bar maybe Earls, I really don't think I've the green glasses on their. England individually aren't fantastic, but as a collective they're much more effective than us over the last few years

Swiwi.

Buer wrote: »

Matt Kvesic although I'd expect Robshaw to still get the nod there. He's only 21 though so has plenty of time.

Wood, Robshaw and Morgan is a pretty strong back row. Lacking in anyone world class class but they're able for most on their day.

Yeah, that's the style of backrow I expect England to go with against NZ. They'll try and repeat the successful formula of last year. NZ should be ready this time, and hopefully without queasy stomachs. I expect England will try and bully NZ, but we'll be up for it.

English Lurker

Corbs being injured is just horrid news. Probably the most difficult player for us to replace.

Fraser's been injured, Kvesic has struggled a little being behind an awful Glaws front five. Those are our two best young opensides, can't see them displacing Robshaw. Really can't see us beating New Zealand, pack should cope to a point but the moment the game opens up that's it.

As for a joint Irish/English team - I can maybe make the case for Foden/Brown for FB, but then I don't rate Kearney. Yarde and Wade have the talent, but not the experience of the Irish wings. That's it for the backs. Forwards would be closer, think it would be almost entirely on form bar Cole, POC and SOB.

ScissorPaperRock

So after two rounds of the HEC who do people think are the winners and losers in terms of their chances of Ireland selection?

I didn't see the Leinster game - did Madigan come one? With Paddy Jackson putting in another assured performance for Ulster I think he must be the most likely backup to Sexton at this stage.

I didn't see the Racing game, but reports haven't been great. I still don't imagine Sexton losing the 10 shirt.

Henderson looked very good when he came on today. Paul O'Connell was ok, as was DOC, but I can't imagine the latter coming back into the fold. How did the Leinster locks do?

Bowe and Trimble had decent games too, as did Earls.

Tox56

ScissorPaperRock wrote: »

So after two rounds of the HEC who do people think are the winners and losers in terms of their chances of Ireland selection?

I didn't see the Leinster game - did Madigan come one? With Paddy Jackson putting in another assured performance for Ulster I think he must be the most likely backup to Sexton at this stage.

I didn't see the Racing game, but reports haven't been great. I still don't imagine Sexton losing the 10 shirt.

Henderson looked very good when he came on today. Paul O'Connell was ok, as was DOC, but I can't imagine the latter coming back into the fold. How did the Leinster locks do?

Bowe and Trimble had decent games too, as did Earls.

I think Jackson has emerged as the only real option. For his competitors one isn't playing and the other isn't playing well. I made the case for Keatley saying the H Cup games can be massive for selection and change momentum massively, unfortunately for him it's worked negatively. I wouldn't go as far as to say Madigan is unlucky but if he isn't playing games he can't be picked, simple as.

From what I've seen of Racing they aren't the most positive team around, and the clean ball off the top that Sexton loves has been in short supply. He's shown several moments of class though and is locked in at 10

Earls has been electric this season and will start if fit, think Trimble will be edged out by Fitz

freyners

ScissorPaperRock wrote: »

So after two rounds of the HEC who do people think are the winners and losers in terms of their chances of Ireland selection?

I didn't see the Leinster game - did Madigan come one? With Paddy Jackson putting in another assured performance for Ulster I think he must be the most likely backup to Sexton at this stage.

I didn't see the Racing game, but reports haven't been great. I still don't imagine Sexton losing the 10 shirt.

Henderson looked very good when he came on today. Paul O'Connell was ok, as was DOC, but I can't imagine the latter coming back into the fold. How did the Leinster locks do?

Bowe and Trimble had decent games too, as did Earls.

I know I've said this already a few times on this forum but for me marmion has to be involved at some point, hes been phenomenal the last few games /brokenrecord

Jackson as understudy for me, madigans non selection counting against him.

bilston

Not much has really changed. Jackson has probably nailed down the back up 10 role and while I didnt see it it sounds like Fitzgerald may have played himself into the reckoning.

TH is interesting, Fitzpatrick may be playing himself into contention just by not getting injured!

As I said the other day the starting XV is almost locked in barring injuries. One or two positions are more open but I think it will be what you see below. The bench is interesting though.

15 Kearney
14 Bowe
13 O'Driscoll
12 Marshall
11 Earls
10 Sexton
9 Murray
1 Healy
2 Best
3 Ross
4 Ryan
5 O'Connell
6 O'Mahony
7 O'Brien
8 Heaslip

16 Cronin (didnt see todays game but was excellent last week)
17 Kilcoyne
18 Fitzpatrick (if he is fit I reckon he is the most viable alternative in the short term)
19 Tuohy (been superb for Ulster over the last two weeks)
20 Henderson
21 Marmion (blood the yoof)
22 Jackson
23 Fitzgerald

ScissorPaperRock

bilston wrote: »

Not much has really changed. Jackson has probably nailed down the back up 10 role and while I didnt see it it sounds like Fitzgerald may have played himself into the reckoning.

TH is interesting, Fitzpatrick may be playing himself into contention just by not getting injured!

As I said the other day the starting XV is almost locked in barring injuries. One or two positions are more open but I think it will be what you see below. The bench is interesting though.

15 Kearney
14 Bowe
13 O'Driscoll
12 Marshall
11 Earls
10 Sexton
9 Murray
1 Healy
2 Best
3 Ross
4 Ryan
5 O'Connell
6 O'Mahony
7 O'Brien
8 Heaslip

16 Cronin (didnt see todays game but was excellent last week)
17 Kilcoyne
18 Fitzpatrick (if he is fit I reckon he is the most viable alternative in the short term)
19 Tuohy (been superb for Ulster over the last two weeks)
20 Henderson
21 Marmion (blood the yoof)
22 Jackson
23 Fitzgerald

I'd agree with pretty much all of that, except I'm not sure about Tuohy. Do you think Henderson would be backrow cover rather than lock? Toner and McCarthy would probably be in contention too, but I didn't see them today.

I wonder if JS will go with Marmion or will he want a more solid option given the competition we're facing and that there will be a lot of uncertainty/settling in involved. Admittedly, I haven't seen him this season, but I've read a lot of good reports.

While in normal circumstances the Samoa match would be a good opportunity to look at a few younger players, given that this will JS's first ever international and that the next two games will be the Aussies (who played very well today) and NZ I wonder if he'll be selecting the 23 that he'll be expecting to play for the three tests.

thomond2006

Donnacha Ryan was in a bad state going off tonight, I'd be very concerned about his availability.

Buer

thomond2006 wrote: »

Donnacha Ryan was in a bad state going off tonight, I'd be very concerned about his availability.

Seemed to have a couple of different knocks, by the looks of it, and was in some discomfort. I don't know why he wasn't brought off earlier as he was clearly struggling.

Hopefully just bruising and he'll be alright in a couple of weeks.