Standard of Irish Judo Vs Standard of Irish wrestling

FERGAL7

I want to start Judo or wrestling to supplement my Boxing. I was wondering was I better taking up Judo or wrestling. Obviously wrestling seems to translate better to mma but what is the standard of amateur wrestling like in Ireland. Judo seems to be quite widespread while wrestling clubs at least in the countryside where I'm from are a rarity.
Also I live in Santry and am attending DCU so if you know of any clubs near-by or perhaps a good mma club please let me know

El Guapo!

Moved from mma

Mellor

Are you looking to take up grappling to supplement you martial arts training in general, or your MMA training specifically?

Chris89

Judo is probably going to be better than the wrestling mate.

Doug Cartel

I think the standard of judo would be higher, simply because there are more people, but...

Most places that are running wrestling classes, are running wrestling for MMA. So, if gaining skills for MMA specifically is what you're looking for, I think one of those classes would be better. With a regular judo class you'll have to learn judo first, and then figure out how to apply it do MMA, instead of learning to apply stuff to MMA from day one (or maybe day two).

Mellor

Doug Cartel wrote: »

I think the standard of judo would be higher, simply because there are more people, but...

Most places that are running wrestling classes, are running wrestling for MMA. So, if gaining skills for MMA specifically is what you're looking for, I think one of those classes would be better. With a regular judo class you'll have to learn judo first, and then figure out how to apply it do MMA, instead of learning to apply stuff to MMA from day one (or maybe day two).

Completely agree. That's why I was asking about his reason for taking up grappling.
There's a huge amount that won't transfer to MMA which will only get in he way of useful stuff.

FERGAL7

well ya I basically want it for mma grappling. I had heard that is one of the issues with judo in mma (that because of the gi it can be hard to transition to mma.) Do any of you lads know of any good mma clubs in dublin preferably situated between DCU and the city centre? I heard SBG had a club somewhere on the northside is it still operating? I'm going to DCU living right beside the college so would the SBG that John Kavanagh runs be too far away?

Peetrik

Hercules club is smack bang on the route between DCU and the city center (just off Church st). Never been myself but I've heard the wrestling there is top notch.

Might be worth checking out.

tritium

FERGAL7 wrote: »

well ya I basically want it for mma grappling. I had heard that is one of the issues with judo in mma (that because of the gi it can be hard to transition to mma.) Do any of you lads know of any good mma clubs in dublin preferably situated between DCU and the city centre? I heard SBG had a club somewhere on the northside is it still operating? I'm going to DCU living right beside the college so would the SBG that John Kavanagh runs be too far away?

Give kyuzo in Glasnevin a shot. Nice gang to train with and Barry has a good standard. Not too far from dcu on the finglas road

arybvtcw0eolkf

FERGAL7 wrote: »

well ya I basically want it for mma grappling. I had heard that is one of the issues with judo in mma (that because of the gi it can be hard to transition to mma.) Do any of you lads know of any good mma clubs in dublin preferably situated between DCU and the city centre? I heard SBG had a club somewhere on the northside is it still operating? I'm going to DCU living right beside the college so would the SBG that John Kavanagh runs be too far away?

Its not hard at all, it took me about a night to find my grips OFF the gi.

Apart from leg grabs there is nothing wrestling brings to MMA which Judo can't.. And leg grabs are pretty easy to defend.

But, and its a big but ~ I'd chose my judo club carefully and go for one which does 50/50 ground and take downs as some concentrate a huge amount on stand up.. However thanksfully most good clubs are cross training in BJJ now and there's an even devoid between take downs and ground work.

Another consideration is clinch work, IMO nothing comes close to controlling the clinch than Judo.

I'd point the OP to two MMA clubs, but theyre a little away from DCU ~ Andy Ryans clubs TEAM RYAN/BJJ REVOLUTION and Luke Corcorans C-MAC..

Both clubs head coaches are very high level Judoka, both have dedicated boxing coaches and Ryan also has wrestling coaches (not sure about C-MAC).

Mellor

Virginia Mammoth Snorer wrote: »

Apart from leg grabs there is nothing wrestling brings to MMA which Judo can't.. And leg grabs are pretty easy to defend.

You'd have a better idea than me, but is it simply just a question of stylistic approach. As in technically lots judo techniques are perfectly legal in wrestling, and vise versa. It's purely stylistic that the two approach a similar outcome differently.
I know of at least one pretty high level judoka who cross trains with a wrestling team (without the Gi obviously) for the variation in attack.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Mellor wrote: »

You'd have a better idea than me, but is it simply just a question of stylistic approach. As in technically lots judo techniques are perfectly legal in wrestling, and vise versa. It's purely stylistic that the two approach a similar outcome differently.
I know of at least one pretty high level judoka who cross trains with a wrestling team (without the Gi obviously) for the variation in attack.

Well technically Judo/BJJ/Sambo etc etc are all Wrestling, and all have elements of freestyle.. The Gi makes grip fighting very, very important in judo but once you learn to find your grips off the gi you're wrestling.

Under/over hooks, wrist & arm drags (no gi) and I'm playing judo again

I hate that leg/ankle grabs have been taken out of judo but thats only because I train BJJ & MMA and when I only train judo for awhile my sprawls suffer otherwise the rules have made judo very, very exciting again and ensured continued Olympic/TV coverage.. Oh styles, the rule changes came about because Judo (particularly at the heavier weights) was getting more and more closer to wrestling and TV didn't like that..

Much as TV dictated blue/white Gi's, bigger table tennis balls etc ~ it didn't like two very similar styles in the Olympics.

Sorry if thats a little disjointed, I'd more than a few beers after The Rumble last night

Chris89

Makikomi, who is the best judo club in ireland, in competition? And if they are not in Dublin, who are the best in Dublin.

Do any Irish judo clubs have international success?

Cheers

Doug Cartel

By the way, I've never had much difficulty adapting my grips to no-gi. We often get Eastern European guys train in the TCD Judo club because there's no wrestling club available, and Judo is the closest alternative. At the start of the year they don't usually have suits, and its never really bothered me gripping up with them.

I think the biggest problem with training Judo for mma is actually a cultural one. In a lot of Judo clubs, if you told them you want to cross train, they'll basically question why you don't just train more Judo. In a BJJ place they'll be more supportive. That might sound a bit like a joke, but I think it makes a big difference.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Chris89 wrote: »

Makikomi, who is the best judo club in ireland, in competition? And if they are not in Dublin, who are the best in Dublin.

Do any Irish judo clubs have international success?

Cheers

Oh I've no idea tbh.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Doug Cartel wrote: »

I think the biggest problem with training Judo for mma is actually a cultural one. In a lot of Judo clubs, if you told them you want to cross train, they'll basically question why you don't just train more Judo. In a BJJ place they'll be more supportive. That might sound a bit like a joke, but I think it makes a big difference.

A few years ago there was only a few small number cross training between BJJ and Judo, its different now and BJJ clubs see the advantages of having Judoka pass on some techniques.

I think Judo is closer to wrestling on the ground than BJJ is (to wrestling).. Where the focus is on scoring points from position in BJJ, in judo and wrestling the focus is less on scoring points than it is to grind out a sub or hold down.

In regards to MMA clubs training either BJJ or Judo ~ well the learning curve in judo is very steep, its tough and lads don't like getting thrown around.

I've also been asked to show throws to MMA guys, but I try to explain that showing a throw without showing the set up to it is like going to a boxing club and showing how to throw a sucker punch!.

Its hard for someone who doesn't train a lot of judo to understand how judo combinations work ~ and the fact its all bloody Japanese doesn't help much either!.

Chris89

Virginia Mammoth Snorer wrote: »

Oh I've no idea tbh.

Really? I wasnt being smart with the question, genuinely curious.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Chris89 wrote: »

Really? I wasnt being smart with the question, genuinely curious.

Oh no, sorry if you think I was being smart or short with you.

The competition results would be available from the IJA.

In Dublin a lot of people are talking about Lusk as the place to train for competition, Coolmine is another great club. Portmarnock used to have great numbers and a lot of competitors but thats been in decline the last few years for some reason.

Sorry again if you thought I as being a dick.. I'd a a few pints after The Rumble in Rush (MMA) last night and wasn't the better for it today

Mellor

Virginia Mammoth Snorer wrote: »

Where the focus is on scoring points from position in BJJ, in judo and wrestling the focus is less on scoring points than it is to grind out a sub or hold down.

I think that depends on the club tbh. I know here in Sydney it varies depending on club/coach anyway. Some guys completely follow a point fighting style, which is obviously driven by competition. And other clubs an attacking/submission style - which doesn't consider points but only position control. I prefer the latter, but I'm biased.

I've no idea what it's BJJ is like in Ireland though. Hopefully I'll find out soon.


[quore]~ and the fact its all bloody Japanese doesn't help much either!.[/quote]
+1

darced

This post has been deleted.

cowzerp

FERGAL7 wrote: »

Also I live in Santry and am attending DCU so if you know of any clubs near-by or perhaps a good mma club please let me know

From Santry the 33 bus drops you right outside RFA, if you want to learn MMA grappling do MMA

arybvtcw0eolkf

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

What is ''pure judo''?.

Mellor

Virginia Mammoth Snorer wrote: »

What is ''pure judo''?.

I imagine he means somebody whose background/grappling credentials is solely in judo.
Like the way there's a lot of guys who complete bjj or wrestling background but not too many* from a judo background despite judo being similar on a worldwide scale.


*there are some, Ronda Rousey, Norman Parke, but not many.

Clive

FERGAL7 wrote: »

I want to start Judo or wrestling to supplement my Boxing. I was wondering was I better taking up Judo or wrestling. Obviously wrestling seems to translate better to mma but what is the standard of amateur wrestling like in Ireland. Judo seems to be quite widespread while wrestling clubs at least in the countryside where I'm from are a rarity.
Also I live in Santry and am attending DCU so if you know of any clubs near-by or perhaps a good mma club please let me know

I'm pretty sure DCU has an MMA club you could train with.

As for wrestling versus judo if you're not doing any other grappling then judo all the way in my opinion. Yes it's not as directly applicable to MMA, but the submissions in judo are more than worth that trade off.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Mellor wrote: »

I imagine he means somebody whose background/grappling credentials is solely in judo.
Like the way there's a lot of guys who complete bjj or wrestling background but not too many* from a judo background despite judo being similar on a worldwide scale.


*there are some, Ronda Rousey, Norman Parke, but not many.

In that case I really don't know, mostly because apart from the Irish scene I really don't follow MMA!.

Training MMA is a bit of craic for me and really thats where it ends, I don't bother with the UFC (to the amazement of my friends who I train with) but I suspect a 2 minute google search would give me a list of names (of judoka) who have been very competitive at top level MMA.

"pure judo" to mean would mean Kosen Judo.. Unfortunately TV/Olympic pressure has changed Judo to a point where a practitioner can use more Judo in BJJ than in Judo!.. To me the ideal is to cross train Judo and BJJ ~ this would of huge benefit to the BJJ player than the Judoka.

Judo has a very steep, and painful ( ) learning curve.. At times its not too pleasant, its rough & tough & you're more prone to injury than you are in BJJ.

If the OP wants to consider Judo for MMA he must also take into consideration that the legs are out of bounds in judo ~ you can't touch/grab them standing and you can't use joint locks on them on the ground.. On the flip side in the clinch Judo is king and the Judoka should reasonably expect to get a very good takedown from the clinch.

tommba

I think it's more of the case that in the USA, they have alot more wrestlers and world class wrestling coaches than they have judoka. So logically they started adapting their most prevalent grappling art towards MMA.

UFC rules also were biased alot towards wrestling, which have changed recently, to a degree.

It's not to say that judo is not effective in MMA, it's just that wrestling has been adapted towards it much more, because modern MMA was born in the americas. You also have the knock-on effect, that because most american mma fighters train wrestling, enthusiasts/fighters elsewhere in the world want to train in the same styles as the pros.

The new judo rules might mean judo will becomes less effective for MMA, which the no leg grabbing etc. Indeed judo was influenced alot by wrestling also. Judoka from the USA tended to rely on their wrestling background alot, so they used alot of leg grabs. Judoka from japan had a more traditional style using throws more. Judo was starting to look alot like wrestling in competitions, which is why I think the new rules to bring it more back to the traditional throws were brought in.

As to whether to train judo or wrestling in ireland. It's hard to say. We've always had some very good judo trainers, and now that there is alot of immigration from eastern europe etc, there are a few very good wrestlers knocking about also.

You're living in dublin atm, so if you look at any of the big MMA schools, most will have wrestling classes. I would say if you're looking to compete in MMA, these are your best bet. There are also alot of very good judo clubs. There's no reason why you shouldn't try both and see which has the most effect on your MMA game.

Mellor

Virginia Mammoth Snorer wrote: »

I suspect a 2 minute google search would give me a list of names (of judoka) who have been very competitive at top level MMA.

You'll find some of course.
Ronda Rousey, Hector Lombard,
Kim Dong-Hyun, Yushin Okami. Can sort of claim Shinya Aoki, although BJJ is probably dominant.
So they do exist, but compare judo to BJJ (for example) on a world scale and the number of judoka in MMA isn't proportional to the size of the sport.

tommba wrote: »

UFC rules also were biased alot towards wrestling, which have changed recently, to a degree.

Which rules where biased?
And whats has changed recently?

It's not to say that judo is not effective in MMA, it's just that wrestling has been adapted towards it much more, because modern MMA was born in the americas.

That's pretty debatable. UFC might have grown in American.
But Pride, Dream, Rings etc all grew from Asia.

creeper1

Chris89 wrote: »

Do any Irish judo clubs have international success?

Cheers

I remember a girl from NI went to the olympics in London. She didn't do well.

Apart from that I think it's been a very, very long time since anyone from Ireland has done something noteable on an international stage.

Don't get me wrong there are great players out there but they are not good enough for world competition.

I'm sure the situation is even worse for wrestling TBH.

The Irish do well in boxing and mma.

Chris89

creeper1 wrote: »

I remember a girl from NI went to the olympics in London. She didn't do well.

Apart from that I think it's been a very, very long time since anyone from Ireland has done something noteable on an international stage.

Don't get me wrong there are great players out there but they are not good enough for world competition.

I'm sure the situation is even worse for wrestling TBH.

The Irish do well in boxing and mma.

Yeah i remember watching her!

Cheers for the answer. I want to train judo in a competitive environment if at all possible.

wrestlingdad

The Irish Open Wrestling Championships are on this Saturday - there are divisions for novices and well as seasoned wrestlers - why not come along and compete ? see facebook event page for directions - rules will be explained

for wrestling I would recommend Hercules and Spartan Wrestling Club

arybvtcw0eolkf

Chris89 wrote: »

I want to train judo in a competitive environment if at all possible.

All Judo is competitive.. You can't advance past your green belt without being competitive.

Chris89

Virginia Mammoth Snorer wrote: »

All Judo is competitive.. You can't advance past your green belt without being competitive.

I understand, although nobody can seem to tell me who the best is! Therell be a lot of bias im sure if i ask for club reccomendations so i was just wondering if i could find out who is winning all the competitions.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Chris89 wrote: »

I understand, although nobody can seem to tell me who the best is! Therell be a lot of bias im sure if i ask for club reccomendations so i was just wondering if i could find out who is winning all the competitions.

Where are you located?.

Chris89

Virginia Mammoth Snorer wrote: »

Where are you located?.

Dublin/wicklow. have gi will travel.

Doug Cartel

Makikomi isn't just being diplomatic, there isn't really one standout club to point to and say you should train there.

Off the top of my head, Coolmine, Portmarnok, and Paul Cummins' school are very good and have strong competitors. Also Daigokan.

Drained_Empty

Chris89 must be a BJJ guy, trying to find out which is the place to go and get some scalps. The way Irish judo is designed, is that they are cognisant of their position in international hierarchy, and local rivalries, while healthy, are broadly irrelevant within the international scene. I don't think any irish judo player is content / ambitious about being the best irish judo, it's all about international tournaments, the higher ranking the better.

so to help put that in context so you understand, all the best guys in dublin roam around the dublin clubs to get the best training. at times, it was coolmine was the base, then lusk, then portmarnock, etc. Now i think the best judo is being done in cork /kerry now with the munster team much stronger as the competitive dublin guys have moved on.

so short answer, a bjj player taking time out to train in coolmine would get quality randori.

http://www.irishjudoassociation.ie/news/item/685-all-irelands-2013-results

see the clubs that won last years all irelands there

Chris89

Not looking for any scalps, but definitely looking for the best training. thanks.

creeper1

I would tend to suggest finding a bjj club and sticking with that.

BJJ and MMA are hot at the moment. BJJ is intrinsically linked to MMA. This goes back to the early days of Royce Gracie and the UFC. He beat everyone.

There is a lot of glitz and glamour associated with these UFC and MMA events so there is a big movement of people of people into BJJ. Coaches in BJJ tend to be professional NOT amateurs like judo people generally are.

The result has been a dramatic improvement in BJJ coaches ability to teach and coach students. They seem to know how to impart knowledge and give some sort of curriculum.

This contrasts with judo. Judo coaches in Ireland can't really teach technique or don't show up to teach technique and a lot of the stuff is based on brute force.

It is interesting to note that someone mentioned a judo club getting weaker. I've witnessed a judo club actually close down due to lack of interest on the part of the members! So obviously a sport on the decline.

It wouldn't be a exaggeration to say a bjj blue belt would own a judo black belt on the ground. Moreover it wouldn't be an exaggeration to say a bjj purple belt would own a judo black belt on STAND UP.

Those are my thoughts....

arybvtcw0eolkf

creeper1 wrote: »

It wouldn't be a exaggeration to say a bjj blue belt would own a judo black belt on the ground. Moreover it wouldn't be an exaggeration to say a bjj purple belt would own a judo black belt on STAND UP.

Those are my thoughts....

Welcome to boards.ie/MS&SD Circa 2001

Sigh, I can not abide evangelicals so I'm out of here.

Clive

creeper1 wrote: »

This contrasts with judo. Judo coaches in Ireland can't really teach technique or don't show up to teach technique and a lot of the stuff is based on brute force.

It is interesting to note that someone mentioned a judo club getting weaker. I've witnessed a judo club actually close down due to lack of interest on the part of the members! So obviously a sport on the decline.

It wouldn't be a exaggeration to say a bjj blue belt would own a judo black belt on the ground. Moreover it wouldn't be an exaggeration to say a bjj purple belt would own a judo black belt on STAND UP.

Those are my thoughts....

In ten years of training and competition this has not been my experience. I've had "lightbulb moments" just talking to judo (and wrestling) coaches. BJJ purple belts tend to be a competitive bunch, so of they could "own" judo black belts standing I'm sure they would be getting judo black belts quickly and winning national and international competitions.

Some BJJ blue belts could tap judo black belts - that's because some judoka choose not to focus on their ground game, and a BJJ blue belt generally takes quite a bit of training - they are far from beginners. BJJ legend Rickson was ipponed in a sambo tournament and by all accounts was soundly pinned by a wrestler. They are different sports with different goals.

Apples and oranges TBH.

wrestlingdad

well said clive, agree 100% - always the voice of reason
bill:)

Drained_Empty

Chris89 wrote: »

I understand, although nobody can seem to tell me who the best is! Therell be a lot of bias im sure if i ask for club reccomendations so i was just wondering if i could find out who is winning all the competitions.

which is the best bjj club btw?

slammer187

Are there any Judo clubs in Dublin that are consistently producing competitors that are achieving at an international level or is the high level competitive aspect of the sport still growing?

arybvtcw0eolkf

slammer187 wrote: »

Are there any Judo clubs in Dublin that are consistently producing competitors that are achieving at an international level or is the high level competitive aspect of the sport still growing?

Well Judo is a tiny sport in Ireland compared to the international scene.

For example the Judo is the fourth most popular sport in France, even ahead of Rugby and Golf ~ selling out stadiums for importants tournaments.

You've have to contact or browse the IJA website but we punch well above our weights in Judo Masters comps.

Some Judoka in Ireland are still competitive into their 50's, 60's and even 70's ~ and winning.

Ireland has a lot of junior and cadets comsistantly winning international championships.

Consistantly getting results, off the top of my head I'd say Coolmine and Swords.

Pingu

I think with judo clubs it tends to be that you have own your own club and get a good solid base from that. However the more competitive/competition based players move between clubs to get more bodies to train with and exposure to different styles.

This was certainly the case when I was in Dublin and Galway. It's the same in Sydney also, where the guys from the two biggest clubs train in each others clubs regularly. We also have the advantage of BJJ Black Belts in the club running BJJ classes two or three nights a week. so we get alot of BJJ players coming through the ranks.

So the thing is to find a Judo club you like and feel you can learn in and then move around the other clubs for additional training/randori when get a grip of the basics.

Mellor

Pingu wrote: »

This was certainly the case when I was in Dublin and Galway. It's the same in Sydney also, where the guys from the two biggest clubs train in each others clubs regularly. We also have the advantage of BJJ Black Belts in the club running BJJ classes two or three nights a week. so we get alot of BJJ players coming through the ranks.

Out of curiosity, which clubs would be the biggest in Sydney. And who are the BJJ guys training with you. I have the opposite here, judoka's training at a bjj club.

Pingu

The biggest clubs, well competing from what I've seen so far are Zenbu and UNSW. Diego Barreto runs the BJJ out in Zenbu. http://www.zenbu.com.au/instructors.html

Where are you training?

Mellor

Pingu wrote: »

The biggest clubs, well competing from what I've seen so far are Zenbu and UNSW. Diego Barreto runs the BJJ out in Zenbu. http://www.zenbu.com.au/instructors.html

Where are you training?

I'm in the eastern suburbs, Igor MMA, pretty small club compared to the likes UNSW. We're close to UNSW so there's a few guys from there crosstraining in wrestling, or who moved to BJJ etc.

Chris89

Drained_Empty wrote: »

which is the best bjj club btw?

#east coast jiu jitsu

Drained_Empty

Chris89 wrote: »

#east coast jiu jitsu

and how do you quantify that just as a matter of interest?

Doug Cartel

Drained_Empty wrote: »

and how do you quantify that just as a matter of interest? I mean is it blue belts winning white belt competitions ?

Do not start this.