would you survive without your sfp?

whelan1

this year i wouldnt:o first installment pays insurance, tax and contractor

slippy wicket

Probably fairer to ask would we have survived 09 without it.
Between that and the reps it's a nice few payments into the bank during the dry period.

yellow50HX

can survive without the current SFP but ist only about €1000 so i can do without it. use it to buy extra bales to top up my fodder. reps is a more significat part of teh income and accounts for a fair chuck of the farm income. safe to say a lot of the capatial i have put into the farm has come from that

blue5000

Yes, if beef was around 12euro/kg:eek:

delaval

whelan1 wrote: »

this year i wouldnt:o first installment pays insurance, tax and contractor

If you didn't get it your tax wouldn't be as high

whelan1

delaval wrote: »

If you didn't get it your tax wouldn't be as high

true... sure if i didnt pay my tax i'd have more money to spend

bbam

Not in any meaningful way.
Payments aside were in the black but it wouldn't be a living, or even an existence.

Conmaicne Mara

Just SFP gone? Yes, I would.

bob charles

definitely not, as I would have no raw material for my business

kevthegaff

i would but i normally use it to improve the farm so things would be alot slower in terms of building etc

hugo29

yes, but what would be left would never justify the time spent

Dozer1

same as bbam,
maybe we'd be better off it it was gone
its probably keeping too many non viable farms on the go....mine included

solerina

I know our farm wouldn't....OH works it full time on marginal land. The bills this year are enormous so no way we could survive without it...will be lucky to keep going at all to be honest. Other years possibly but as mentioned above we would need to be paid properly for our lambs and weanlings (some hope).

mahoney_j

I honestly think that in the majority of cases this year the answer would be no.

epfff

mahoney_j wrote: »

I honestly think that in the majority of cases this year the answer would be no.

I definitely wouldnt be at it without it

AntrimGlens

we could possibly scrape by - but that would only mean the sales of livestock paying bills and absolutely no re-investment or drawings. There are three of us farming 160 sda acres - me, my father and my brother.
My father and mother take the sfp to live on and pay for all farm re-investment and contracting such as draining, re-seeding fencing, new sheds etc.
My father and my brother both manage the cattle herd and it barely wipes its face - so some sfp is needed to prop it up when sales are poor, otherwise cattle sales pay for all cattle related bills.
I manage the sheep flock and all lamb sales pay for all sheep related bills but to be honest i run it as close to break even as i can for tax purposes, but have re-invested where possible.
Myself and the brother both have off farm jobs so take no drawings from the farm at all, if we were to draw a wage each then the first thing to go up would be a To Let sign.
I know it's a completely inefficient venture and people will argue that we're only holding back people who will make a return from it - a load of balls, this was poor land that has been reclaimed and a pile of money spent on it, but it is hill ground and you can't milk cows on it.
Some people pay money for their hobbies and leisure and to be honest i get that but i'd rather work with sheep on my days off than sit on a high stool watching the premiership on a saturday.

As i often find myself repeating to non farming friends SFP is a means of keeping the consumer eating good quality food at a low cost to them - it is as much a subsidy to the public as it is to the farmer.

feartuath

No would not survive without it,28 sucklers and last years followers are not paying for the buildings,infrastructure and reseeding gone on for the last few years.Gave up the day job in July as wife returned to work but I will have to return soon.

Birdnuts

I can't imagine too many drystock farmers would survive without it - the market returns are just not there for all the hot air we hear about the likes of harvest 2020 etc. You only have to look at the sorry state of the pig and poultry industry:(

bbam

Well, its a sad reflection of the state of things..
Lots of folks would like the holdings to be more than break even but with such a poor return it just wont happen..

KatyMac

SFP this year is going into improving my crush and holding pen, fixing an awkward gateway so that a lorry can back in properly - it was originally made to fit a donkey cart! I'm also getting half my old hayshed clad so that the bales don't get damp when the wind blows rain in on top of them and if there is anything left there is a bit of a hill that has places where gravel was dug out and it's all holes that are dangerous. That's about it gone!!

RaggyDays

Yes I can survive without the sfp because I have a proper job.

tismesoitis

hugo29 wrote: »

yes, but what would be left would never justify the time spent

Same as that here

FT7

no outside income here,

at this point of time i think we would manage,

however without sfp and reps in the past the farm would not been reached it's present status, develpoment, livestock etc were mostly funded by these schemes

Sharpshooter82

dont recieve Sfp

case885

RaggyDays wrote: »

Yes I can survive without the sfp because I have a proper job.

Is farming not a proper job? :pac:

Sharpshooter82

case885 wrote: »

Is farming not a proper job? :pac:

oh its gonna start now

Conmaicne Mara

case885 wrote: »

Is farming not a proper job? :pac:

Was waiting for that :pac:

stanflt

I'm gonna get slated for this but Sfp is holding back the progressive efficient farmer- blocking them from access to good land that is tied up in corrupt share farming/ stroke of a pen farmers

Personally we don't rely on Sfp if you can't make a decent living you should question the system that your at

Having studied business and seeing some of my best friends as sole traders I think that these guys need Sfp because in a bad year they have nothing and no assets to fall back on- they also create a lot more employment which is far better for the economy- the more working the more bread their is for everyone

Qprmeath

No

lakill Farm

stanflt wrote: »

I'm gonna get slated for this but Sfp is holding back the progressive efficient farmer- blocking them from access to good land that is tied up in corrupt share farming/ stroke of a pen farmers

Personally we don't rely on Sfp if you can't make a decent living you should question the system that your at

Having studied business and seeing some of my best friends as sole traders I think that these guys need Sfp because in a bad year they have nothing and no assets to fall back on- they also create a lot more employment which is far better for the economy- the more working the more bread their is for everyone

Some great points.

As it is farming will need SFP ongoing, very few enterprises with a steady cashflow except dairy and thats all reliant on the world demand.

Even if your farm is able to survive without sfp, would you have been able to start from zero and either buy/rent and stock the farm to a sustainable level?

Take into comparison the local shop / trades person etc. In a generation they can start from zero and grow a sustainable business without much support.

Farming needs to be achieving better market prices.

mahoney_j

stanflt wrote: »

I'm gonna get slated for this but Sfp is holding back the progressive efficient farmer- blocking them from access to good land that is tied up in corrupt share farming/ stroke of a pen farmers

Personally we don't rely on Sfp if you can't make a decent living you should question the system that your at

Having studied business and seeing some of my best friends as sole traders I think that these guys need Sfp because in a bad year they have nothing and no assets to fall back on- they also create a lot more employment which is far better for the economy- the more working the more bread their is for everyone

Agree with u on that stan,amount of excellent land around me been ran into the ground is shocking.i think it's a pride thing .its always been x family's land and it always will be regardless..one particular 80 acre block next to me is overgrown with every weed under the sun despite been a very well ran dairy block up to 10 years ago.approached guy a few years back and offered him 200 an acre for it on a long term leases and all reseeded.didnt even think about it and just refused point blank despite the fact he claims no Sfp and keeps about 40 cattle on it for 12 months of the year
On Sfp I'd have to say I need it most years as I'm still in early days of development having built parlour last year,mortgage with wife and child who is working,as well as keeping mam and dad paid in lieu of getting farm handed over with stock for nothing

Dampintheattic

lakill Farm wrote: »

Some great points.

As it is farming will need SFP ongoing, very few enterprises with a steady cashflow except dairy and thats all reliant on the world demand.

Even if your farm is able to survive without sfp, would you have been able to start from zero and either buy/rent and stock the farm to a sustainable level?

Take into comparison the local shop / trades person etc. In a generation they can start from zero and grow a sustainable business without much support.

Farming needs to be achieving better market prices.

Ultimately it seems the market price is there for beef, for example.
BUT, the lions share of the difference between cost and market price, gets pocketed by a few processors.
How on earth, can beef producers in the UK, get paid so much more than Irish producers, when both products, pretty much end up on the same supermarket shelves, in the UK.
There is something rotten about the whole system!:mad:

Conmaicne Mara

stanflt wrote: »

I'm gonna get slated for this but Sfp is holding back the progressive efficient farmer- blocking them from access to good land that is tied up in corrupt share farming/ stroke of a pen farmers

Personally we don't rely on Sfp if you can't make a decent living you should question the system that your at

Having studied business and seeing some of my best friends as sole traders I think that these guys need Sfp because in a bad year they have nothing and no assets to fall back on- they also create a lot more employment which is far better for the economy- the more working the more bread their is for everyone

I'll give the same answer to sole traders as I didn't (but was thinking) when my local shopkeeper ate the head off me for reading something about CAP - let them get a lobby and use it.

As for farmers and SFP, I don't rely on mine as it wouldn't pay my petrol for a normal year. I'd miss it if it went, but that's it.

The one problem I do have with what you said is that it's an easy thing to say from your position - not for a moment saying you don't have challenges or haven't worked hard to get to where you are - but, you're farming in probably the most profitable sector in Irish farming on average, and on probably some of the best productive land in the country.

Not a pop, just an observation from a different perspective

AntrimGlens

stanflt wrote: »

I'm gonna get slated for this but Sfp is holding back the progressive efficient farmer- blocking them from access to good land that is tied up in corrupt share farming/ stroke of a pen farmers

Two very different points and generalisation Stan in the one sentence - SFP is only holding back the progressive efficient farmer from getting his hands on good land where good land is available. As far as hill farming is concerned i believe i'm as good a farmer as many round me and sfp is sustaining us to live there and contribute to the local economy, it certainly isn't blocking anyone from coming in to take on more land that is marginal hill ground. As someone who benchmarks my business annually against the most progressive in the country and works very closely with my local advisor i know what my farm is capable of and it can't be pushed much more - this is solely down to land type. I do agree however that where guys are slipper farmers this should be changed and the definition of the active farmer MUST be changed in the next round of CAP

loveta

mahoney_j wrote: »

Agree with u on that stan,amount of excellent land around me been ran into the ground is shocking.i think it's a pride thing .its always been x family's land and it always will be regardless..one particular 80 acre block next to me is overgrown with every weed under the sun despite been a very well ran dairy block up to 10 years ago.approached guy a few years back and offered him 200 an acre for it on a long term leases and all reseeded.didnt even think about it and just refused point blank despite the fact he claims no Sfp and keeps about 40 cattle on it for 12 months of the year
On Sfp I'd have to say I need it most years as I'm still in early days of development having built parlour last year,mortgage with wife and child who is working,as well as keeping mam and dad paid in lieu of getting farm handed over with stock for nothing

In the same boat here guys able to hang on messing and because of pride cause the sfp keeps the show running stanfit said alot of truths in his post two. The question i ask would we not be better of with better prices instead of the european policy of cheap food and no sfp??

bbam

loveta wrote: »

In the same boat here guys able to hang on messing and because of pride cause the sfp keeps the show running stanfit said alot of truths in his post two. The question i ask would we not be better of with better prices instead of the european policy of cheap food and no sfp??

Yes we would.
We'd be much better off with a profittable industry. But two things need to happen.
Even if SFP was based on a rolling five year period it would be better. This would reward production above all else.
Then there needs to be an efficient lobby group who aren't afraid to take on the processors. I mean, what in earth is the advantage in demonstrating outside Tesco in Maynooth. How many farmers have sold cattle in the doors of that shop. ?? The fight would need to be brought to the processors to pay a decent price.

Farfield

So as it appears clear most peoples farms on here dont contribute much if anything to keeping their homes going and most cant live without the single farm payment, why then are we all pushing like mad to up cow numbers etc for the quota going in 2015 - if we cant make money as it is whats going to change then??
Would it not be more sensible to take a "wait and see approach"? If its tight now, why work even harder for the same or less money maybe

bob charles

the dangerous assumption to makes is if SFP goes that commodity prices will rise, something that wont happen, you can point the finger at NZ when they removed subs but the market so happened to change for there output for that period. 99% of beef farms are gone by the way side including mine even as I wouldnt have any store cattle to buy that are only produced due to SFP being in place. Beef has to be over €5 constantly for the beef system to survive on its own and everyone along the line to make money. I would hope for a coupled payment for guys breeding quality weanlings and let the boys further up along the beef chain have no sfp and carry the initial producer

keep going

Yes

jersey101

wouldn't manage without it here. Always goes to payback morgage on the land. We'd be in right dier state if we didnt have it but hopefully in a few year id like to see that we can be able to do with out it and its just seen as a perk.

reilig

Another question to ask is how many farmers are spending their full or part of their sfp in order to keep their farm afloat on an annual basis?

We have to remember what sfp is for-it's supposed to be part of income.

I know people who keep cattle, get 10 or 15k euro in sfp and spend it all along with any money made from cattle sales to feed the cattle and keep the farm. These guys aren't young people who are spending a lot of money on developing the farm for the future either.

Timmaay

Alot of no's here, in my case I'd say my dad would almost certainly have packed in the dairying afew years ago without it (when I wasn't interested), last 2years I personally wouldn't have survived either, between building back up stock and other investments.

But anyways, it all does again raise the age old question of where the hell is farming going here in Ireland? Dairying is about the only sector with a positive outlook, but 2009/12/13 have shown how rocky a road that is, without the buffer of the SFP I'd say alot more dairylads would be in trouble, and would have had even bigger feed bills to pay now, with the merchants/banks knocking on the door every day. We don't need to mention beef/sheep, the only reason either have survived is because of the SFP, and then part time farmers using it to offset their tax, so that's basically a grant in one sense to meat production. The CAP payments have continuously been reduced last few years, and as bob said, its a dangerous assumption to think prices will rise if it goes. I can only see it all ending in very little beef/sheep, and then lots more forestry on land that isn't fit for tillage/dairying. The only "obstacle" in the way is how clouded the judgement is of any of the unviable farmers, who will stick it out because its their land/way of life etc etc, even if that means being on the breadline and working insane hours.

Conmaicne Mara

bbam wrote: »

I mean, what in earth is the advantage in demonstrating outside Tesco in Maynooth. How many farmers have sold cattle in the doors of that shop. ?? The fight would need to be brought to the processors to pay a decent price.

Because a lot of processors are being squeezed by supermarkets. Had that conversation recently with a very knowledgeable farmer who sells to factories.

That particular outfit doesn't release their profits in this country, has to tell you something.

bbam

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

Because a lot of processors are being squeezed by supermarkets. Had that conversation recently with a very knowledgeable farmer who sells to factories.

That particular outfit doesn't release their profits in this country, has to tell you something.

I part take your point.
But remember they can only get irish beef from one set of processors. And these processors seem quite happy to bed in with the multiples rather than help the agriculture business survive.

Dampintheattic

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

Because a lot of processors are being squeezed by supermarkets. Had that conversation recently with a very knowledgeable farmer who sells to factories.

That particular outfit doesn't release their profits in this country, has to tell you something.

So how come, processors in UK, selling to the same supermarkets, can pay UK farmers SO much more for their produce?
This is the one single conundrum which has never once been properly explained by the Irish beef industry!!!

http://www.independent.ie/business/farming/sickening-15pc-cut-in-beef-prices-enrages-irish-producers-29622701.html

Conmaicne Mara

bbam wrote: »

I part take your point.
But remember they can only get irish beef from one set of processors. And these processors seem quite happy to bed in with the multiples rather than help the agriculture business survive.

So if you can't change the processors attitude you must try for the multiple, or indeed both if there's leeway to change both.

If neither change, you either accept it, fight them, or find another route to market.

Dampintheattic wrote: »

So how come, processors in UK, selling to the same supermarkets, can pay UK farmers SO much more for their produce?
This is the one single conundrum which has never once been properly explained by the Irish beef industry!!!

http://www.independent.ie/business/farming/sickening-15pc-cut-in-beef-prices-enrages-irish-producers-29622701.html

No idea. I was recounting a piece of a conversation. I would guess it's somewhere between the multiple pays the processor more out of their profits in the UK, or the multiple extracts a higher price from the UK consumer than the Irish one therefore allowing them to pay more to the processor.

My own opinion is the root cause is the multiples.

Fireside Solicitor

Am a part time beef farmer and work full time elsewhere in a business supplying the multiples.

It's all about the multiple getting the consumer as cheap as food as possible which means screwing the supplier for every last cent and keeping their margins. Look at tesco's results - they make an average profit margin after all their costs of 30%+ on food alone. As long as they have the stranglehold and the consumer is under pressure you can kiss good bye to getting better prices for fresh produce.

Was in Bulgaria 3 weeks ago - it's lke a place time forgot. Villages empty with an auld dog and a few people knocking about. 90% vacant. The land is fertile going to mass produce and wages very low - that's what we are up against in the future.

The cap will die out over the next 10 years and the market will rule and you can kiss goodbye to a lot of farms that are only hangin in there

Sam Kade

Fireside Solicitor wrote: »

Am a part time beef farmer and work full time elsewhere in a business supplying the multiples.

It's all about the multiple getting the consumer as cheap as food as possible which means screwing the supplier for every last cent and keeping their margins. Look at tesco's results - they make an average profit margin after all their costs of 30%+ on food alone. As long as they have the stranglehold and the consumer is under pressure you can kiss good bye to getting better prices for fresh produce.

Was in Bulgaria 3 weeks ago - it's lke a place time forgot. Villages empty with an auld dog and a few people knocking about. 90% vacant. The land is fertile going to mass produce and wages very low - that's what we are up against in the future.

The cap will die out over the next 10 years and the market will rule and you can kiss goodbye to a lot of farms that are only hangin in there

What a very positive first post

Dampintheattic

Fireside Solicitor wrote: »

Am a part time beef farmer and work full time elsewhere in a business supplying the multiples.

It's all about the multiple getting the consumer as cheap as food as possible which means screwing the supplier for every last cent and keeping their margins. Look at tesco's results - they make an average profit margin after all their costs of 30%+ on food alone. As long as they have the stranglehold and the consumer is under pressure you can kiss good bye to getting better prices for fresh produce.

Was in Bulgaria 3 weeks ago - it's lke a place time forgot. Villages empty with an auld dog and a few people knocking about. 90% vacant. The land is fertile going to mass produce and wages very low - that's what we are up against in the future.

The cap will die out over the next 10 years and the market will rule and you can kiss goodbye to a lot of farms that are only hangin in there

Says the solicitor, sitting by the fire. Will I get you your slippers and pipe, m'lord:o

Dampintheattic

I probably wouldn't survive in farming without the subs.
Coveney, must realise that, and has decided to break it to me slowley. Still havn't got disadvantaged sub, and not cleared for payment:(

Conmaicne Mara

Dampintheattic wrote: »

I probably wouldn't survive in farming without the subs.
Coveney, must realise that, and has decided to break it to me slowley. Still havn't got disadvantaged sub, and not cleared for payment:(

Do you know why you haven't it got?