Should the maximum handicap be reviewed?

Redzah

Having watched many players over the last few years win captains prizes off handicaps of 22/24 etc., i feel that there should be a maximum handicap set for individuals of a certain demographic and physicality.

For example the winner of the captains prize in my home club played off 24, was in his 40's and was generally a fit individual, he had also been an ever present in big competitions over the last few years and quite frankly is abusing the system etc. My own view is that for somebody of his demographic and physicality then he should never have been allowed to have this handicap.

Possibly some system could be introduced which states that you can only be entitled have handicap of over 18 if you have a disability cert or are over 65 years of age.

Obviously there will still be those who abuse the handicap system (e.g. those who should be off 10 and have a handicap of 15) but it would eliminate a group of individuals who adopt an approach of 'why work on my game to play to 18 when i can go as high as I want' and easily compete.

I'm not trying to offend anybody with a handicap higher than 18, I just feel that 18 is a fair maximum handicap which gives any able bodied individual a goal of playing to this.

mike12

It would never Work and a lot of guys who are 20 plus handicaps and don't have the physical ability to improve would stop playing.
You will always have cheats/handicap bandits and the club's have to deal with them.
Not a lot the GUI can bar making you loggin for every comp no matter the format. All 4ball and team comps should be on your record.

Mike

slave1

Naa, I play with enthusiastic golfers who are great to play a round with off 24+ and they need those shots and more.
The thinking someone who is in fine health should be restricted to 18 is a bit harsh IMHO

Redzah

slave1 wrote: »

Naa, I play with enthusiastic golfers who are great to play a round with off 24+ and they need those shots and more.
The thinking someone who is in fine health should be restricted to 18 is a bit harsh IMHO

Yeah, I understand your views and i'm not trying to be harsh but personally i think it is not only open to abuse but it also is counterproductive for the individuals who can go higher than 18. The hardest thing about playing to your handicap is the mental side of adjusting to whatever it is, personally i think that the only difference between 18 and 24 is mental and not physical so with reknewed focus off 18 then i think anybody currently off 24 would adjust to an 18 handicap and also make it a fairer playing field for the rest

GreeBo

Is a very tricky problem imo.
Its the equivalent to trying to give runners handicaps for an even race.
Some people are slower and so need a bigger handicap, some people do stupid things (go the wrong way, start out too fast) and so it takes them longer.

Perhaps initial handicaps should be based on some sort of skills test thats carried out at sanctioned GUI locations, that way if you are not scoring, but do have the skills, you dont get a high handicap.
But then golf is about scoring, not hitting nice shots.

I think the closest analogy is a snooker handicap.
You can be great at potting balls, but have poor tracking or shot selection and so a "better" player will beat you 9/10.
however you are going to have those days where you get away with poor tracking/decisions and pot everything you look at. On those days, coupled with your handicap you will be impossible for anyone to beat.

Redzah

GreeBo wrote: »

Is a very tricky problem imo.
Its the equivalent to trying to give runners handicaps for an even race.
Some people are slower and so need a bigger handicap, some people do stupid things (go the wrong way, start out too fast) and so it takes them longer.

Perhaps initial handicaps should be based on some sort of skills test thats carried out at sanctioned GUI locations, that way if you are not scoring, but do have the skills, you dont get a high handicap.
But then golf is about scoring, not hitting nice shots.

I think the closest analogy is a snooker handicap.
You can be great at potting balls, but have poor tracking or shot selection and so a "better" player will beat you 9/10.
however you are going to have those days where you get away with poor tracking/decisions and pot everything you look at. On those days, coupled with your handicap you will be impossible for anyone to beat.

Yeah, a good analogy greebo. I just think for those that have the skills (and in my example are not physically disabled) that 18 would be a fair handicap. For some individuals to get extra shots (more than 18hcp) because they are mentally right between the ears some days (usually in big comps ) is unfair on the rest. Focus is something that can be turned on and off like a light switch and my own opinion is that a player should be punished for their inability to be focussed more often than not if they have the physical ability to perform (as opposed to the field/competitors being punished when the decide to turn the focus on)

Seve OB

I don't think your really have a problem with higher handicaps, but rather the guys who are "protecting" those higher handicaps. After all, is there really a difference between someone who should be off 18 but is actually off 23 and someone off 15 who should be off 10? It is still 5 shots.

I played plenty of golf when I was a kid and was well able to hit the ball. Was never good at scoring though. 11 years ago, @25 I took it up properly again, with my handicap still at 25..... I soon found out I needed every one of those shots, despite knowing and seeing that I had the ability of shooting much better scores... I couldn't!

It's not all about being fit and healthy either. Fine and fair enough when it comes to hitting long shots, but it is in and around the green where the game tells a major tale. The touch and feel is just not with some people. I used to be awful, 3 or 4 putting every hole. Nothing to do with fitness, there was a skill lever which I just didn't have

Of course somedays, the game would just come together and bang, I would shoot 40pts and get cut, but invariably I would get many .1's back in the following games.

Anytime I played a decent round away from my club, I would make sure the card went back because I wanted to be cut. I was often told not to, as I should be "collecting on the way in", but I didn't care about that... I wanted to play off a respectable handicap.

After not so long, I got down to 19, where I stayed for ages. Playing regularly, I would shoot in around my handicap. I knew I was better though, but the scores suggested otherwise. People would call me a bandit, but the scores proved otherwise.

I played my best ever game when I was off 19. It was a team event, so I could "go for everything" and I was on fire. I had 5 birdies that day, a double and triple, and finished 5 over gross. My next best scores were +10 maybe 4 times ever.

I play off 13 now, and would quite comfortably have 8-10 pars in a round. So should I be off 8 or 10? No. Because I don't protect my handicap. I play a genuine game. I'm not a pro and while I can shoot par on every hole, I don't always do it and I will nearly always have a disaster or 2. That's why we have handicaps! Hell I know a few lads who are young fit and healthy but their golf is so bad if they had 36 handicaps they still wouldn't be in the buffer zone!

Magic Pips

OP: whats your handicap and how long have you been playing golf?

I only ask to get an insight into the bias against high handicaps. I'm 32, played (full time) for just over a year and a half. Went from 33 down to 17 in that time.

During that time i dont think i would have felt comfortable continuing to play golf without being able to compete.

I think the issue you're raising is, as above, cheats. Those that manage their handicaps for big events. This is (in SA) up to the clubs to manage the handicaps which do not reflect the true ability of a player, IE the club captain/committee reviews a members handicap downwards/upwards.

GreeBo

stevieob wrote: »

I don't think your really have a problem with higher handicaps, but rather the guys who are "protecting" those higher handicaps. After all, is there really a difference between someone who should be off 18 but is actually off 23 and someone off 15 who should be off 10? It is still 5 shots.

I played plenty of golf when I was a kid and was well able to hit the ball. Was never good at scoring though. 11 years ago, @25 I took it up properly again, with my handicap still at 25..... I soon found out I needed every one of those shots, despite knowing and seeing that I had the ability of shooting much better scores... I couldn't!

It's not all about being fit and healthy either. Fine and fair enough when it comes to hitting long shots, but it is in and around the green where the game tells a major tale. The touch and feel is just not with some people. I used to be awful, 3 or 4 putting every hole. Nothing to do with fitness, there was a skill lever which I just didn't have

Of course somedays, the game would just come together and bang, I would shoot 40pts and get cut, but invariably I would get many .1's back in the following games.

Anytime I played a decent round away from my club, I would make sure the card went back because I wanted to be cut. I was often told not to, as I should be "collecting on the way in", but I didn't care about that... I wanted to play off a respectable handicap.

After not so long, I got down to 19, where I stayed for ages. Playing regularly, I would shoot in around my handicap. I knew I was better though, but the scores suggested otherwise. People would call me a bandit, but the scores proved otherwise.

I played my best ever game when I was off 19. It was a team event, so I could "go for everything" and I was on fire. I had 5 birdies that day, a double and triple, and finished 5 over gross. My next best scores were +10 maybe 4 times ever.

I play off 13 now, and would quite comfortably have 8-10 pars in a round. So should I be off 8 or 10? No. Because I don't protect my handicap. I play a genuine game. I'm not a pro and while I can shoot par on every hole, I don't always do it and I will nearly always have a disaster or 2. That's why we have handicaps! Hell I know a few lads who are young fit and healthy but their golf is so bad if they had 36 handicaps they still wouldn't be in the buffer zone!

The only thing I would say here (other than well done!) is that you cant go for the shots off 8 that you can off 13, because you dont have the safety blanket.

If you are comfortably having 8-10 pars in a round then 13 is way too high.
Im 9 and *have* to have 9 pars per round just to have any chance of playing to it, seems a little "unfair" that you can do the same but have 4 shots more than me to play around with...

I played with you in Thurles...a cut to 9/10 would be good for you, you are well capable of it imo.

GreeBo

also Im not even talking about cheats here...there is nothing you can really do about them.

My argument is more against the guys (no one specifically on here!) who dont play golf, they play driving range on the course and then add up the score at the end. Its "unfair" (for want of a better word) that these guys get to go for everything and not worry about the consequences.

I think off a handicap higher than 12, if you beat par by more than 4 shots, you should lose a full shot for each one, clearly there is a problem with your current handicap. The ESR is trying to tackle it, but I think the cuts need to be heavier, after all, isnt getting cut what we all want to happen?

Mr. Larson

I've given up fretting over what handicap people are who win whatever prize. It's like road rage, it's no more productive than punching yourself in the face.

I would much rather focus on the most valuable prize there is in golf instead. My handicap. Give me a 0.8 cut over a lamp any day of the week. With modern information and communication systems, online scores etc. you will get far more public respect, kudos (or whatever it is you crave) by posting a good score off a low number than you will by having a collection of lamps and nested tables. You're just going to be sneered at if you play off 24 with a consistent 230yd drive or play off 16 with the ability to hit draws, fades and stingers off the tee.

Sitting in the comfort of my own home on a Sunday evening after a good round, waiting for the scores to appear online, waiting for CSS to see how much I will get cut is altogether more enjoyable evening than hauling ass over to a half empty clubhouse to collect another vase.

Redzah

stevieob wrote: »

I don't think your really have a problem with higher handicaps, but rather the guys who are "protecting" those higher handicaps. After all, is there really a difference between someone who should be off 18 but is actually off 23 and someone off 15 who should be off 10? It is still 5 shots.

I played plenty of golf when I was a kid and was well able to hit the ball. Was never good at scoring though. 11 years ago, @25 I took it up properly again, with my handicap still at 25..... I soon found out I needed every one of those shots, despite knowing and seeing that I had the ability of shooting much better scores... I couldn't!

It's not all about being fit and healthy either. Fine and fair enough when it comes to hitting long shots, but it is in and around the green where the game tells a major tale. The touch and feel is just not with some people. I used to be awful, 3 or 4 putting every hole. Nothing to do with fitness, there was a skill lever which I just didn't have

Of course somedays, the game would just come together and bang, I would shoot 40pts and get cut, but invariably I would get many .1's back in the following games.

Anytime I played a decent round away from my club, I would make sure the card went back because I wanted to be cut. I was often told not to, as I should be "collecting on the way in", but I didn't care about that... I wanted to play off a respectable handicap.

After not so long, I got down to 19, where I stayed for ages. Playing regularly, I would shoot in around my handicap. I knew I was better though, but the scores suggested otherwise. People would call me a bandit, but the scores proved otherwise.

I played my best ever game when I was off 19. It was a team event, so I could "go for everything" and I was on fire. I had 5 birdies that day, a double and triple, and finished 5 over gross. My next best scores were +10 maybe 4 times ever.

I play off 13 now, and would quite comfortably have 8-10 pars in a round. So should I be off 8 or 10? No. Because I don't protect my handicap. I play a genuine game. I'm not a pro and while I can shoot par on every hole, I don't always do it and I will nearly always have a disaster or 2. That's why we have handicaps! Hell I know a few lads who are young fit and healthy but their golf is so bad if they had 36 handicaps they still wouldn't be in the buffer zone!

While I would have a separate issue with cheats, my point here is that i think 18 would be a fair maximum handicap for any body playing golf. At this handicap, it would give a beginner a focus to achieve the requirement i.e. a bogey on average per hole as opposed to a double for 2 points on some holes which in my opinion is not a productive focus. I believe too many shots are hit by a player over 18 without focus due to an attitude of 'sure i have 2 shots here' or i can make it up later in the round when i have 2 shots, and this i believe means that the individual is not striving to achieve their maximum ability and it is unfair to the rest of the field who have to focus on every shot to hold a round together.

I just think that 18 is a fair maximum handicap for all. Maybe, more clubs should bring in a rule that all medal comps, captains, presidents etc should have a max handicap of 18 (like many team of 4 events would have).

Redzah

Magic Pips wrote: »

OP: whats your handicap and how long have you been playing golf?

I only ask to get an insight into the bias against high handicaps. I'm 32, played (full time) for just over a year and a half. Went from 33 down to 17 in that time.

During that time i dont think i would have felt comfortable continuing to play golf without being able to compete.

I think the issue you're raising is, as above, cheats. Those that manage their handicaps for big events. This is (in SA) up to the clubs to manage the handicaps which do not reflect the true ability of a player, IE the club captain/committee reviews a members handicap downwards/upwards.

Firstly, well done for your significant cut over that period. You may have noticed that I alluded to (At least i think i did) beginners being given a period of grace where they can have a handicap higher than 18 as the handicap system of course should provide incentive for beginners (but im shocked that a committee would give out 33). My issue is not only cheats but it is the group of handicappers over 18 handicap that can score highly on a big comp day coz they focus more. It is not because they are cheating, it is because there handicap is so high (unfairly high) that with a bit of focus is is too easy to play to.

ssbob

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

This frustrates me a lot, I think as mentioned already above, someone off 5 could be minding their handicap and could have the ability to shoot under par every day out so there is no difference to that than a guy off 24 who could be playing to 18.

I did mention to Charlie while playing on Saturday that it was a joke that I was still putting for a 2pointer on the 9th after putting two balls in the drink(I did proceed to 3 putt)

I think though if you look back at medals especially that generally it is the lower guys(ie. 12/13 and under) who win medals as they can keep the disasters off the cards!

ESR is a great system but think general play cuts should be more frequent.

Redzah

ssbob wrote: »

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

This frustrates me a lot, I think as mentioned already above, someone off 5 could be minding their handicap and could have the ability to shoot under par every day out so there is no difference to that than a guy off 24 who could be playing to 18.

I did mention to Charlie while playing on Saturday that it was a joke that I was still putting for a 2pointer on the 9th after putting two balls in the drink(I did proceed to 3 putt)

I think though if you look back at medals especially that generally it is the lower guys(ie. 12/13 and under) who win medals as they can keep the disasters off the cards!

ESR is a great system but think general play cuts should be more frequent.

I think the difference is that the person off 5 is cheating and in my example the person of 24 has the ability to easily break par (net) as quite frankly, they just have too many shots available to them.

You're example above is very relevant that you put 2 balls in the water and still had the chance to walk off with a 2 pointer, i accept that you did not do this but if u did it is crazy to think that 2 balls in the water on a hole would not damage your score. In my opinion, this is unfair to your competitors and provides minimal incentive and focus to you to avoid the water as I believe that you had too many shots (irrespective of the 3 putt)

listrybabe

ssbob wrote: »

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

This frustrates me a lot, I think as mentioned already above, someone off 5 could be minding their handicap and could have the ability to shoot under par every day out so there is no difference to that than a guy off 24 who could be playing to 18.

I did mention to Charlie while playing on Saturday that it was a joke that I was still putting for a 2pointer on the 9th after putting two balls in the drink(I did proceed to 3 putt)

I think though if you look back at medals especially that generally it is the lower guys(ie. 12/13 and under) who win medals as they can keep the disasters off the cards!

ESR is a great system but think general play cuts should be more frequent.

sorry but i am intrigued as to how you could have 2 putts for 2 points after putting 2 in the water, would you mind explaining to me ? thanks

ssbob

Redzah wrote: »

You're example above is very relevant that you put 2 balls in the water and still had the chance to walk off with a 2 pointer, i accept that you did not do this but if u did it is crazy to think that 2 balls in the water on a hole would not damage your score. In my opinion, this is unfair to your competitors and provides minimal incentive and focus to you to avoid the water as I believe that you had too many shots (irrespective of the 3 putt)

I did say that to Charlie, I felt it was ridiculous tbh, On both shots I aimed away from the hazard and actually tried to manage the hole as its a long par 5 but made a mess of both swings.......believe me there was plenty of incentive for me to avoid the water!!

I think your point is relevant but I don't know how you'll solve the problem to the general agreement of everyone! I don't personally think I would keep playing golf if I wasn't someway competitive!

ssbob

listrybabe wrote: »

sorry but i am intrigued as to how you could have 2 putts for 2 points after putting 2 in the water, would you mind explaining to me ? thanks

Hole 9, Index 3, playing off 24 for purposes of society (My GUI is 23):

• Shot 1 - Tee shot low scuttle pushed right into water(with driver) was aimed left fairway hoping for a small fade.
• Shot 2 - drop
• Shot 3 - aimed again at left fairway with hybrid sliced right into water.
• Shot 4 - drop
• Shot 5 - Hybrid again to rough approx 90 yards(uphill) away awkward lie
• Shot 6 - PW to green about 20 feet away
• Shot 7 - Putt for 2 pointer way short
• Shot 8 - Putt for 1 pointer lip out
• Shot 9 - For no points in the hole

Frustrating game!

GreeBo

ssbob wrote: »

Hole 9, Index 3, playing off 24 for purposes of society (My GUI is 23):

• Shot 1 - Tee shot low scuttle pushed right into water(with driver) was aimed left fairway hoping for a small fade.
• Shot 2 - drop
• Shot 3 - aimed again at left fairway with hybrid sliced right into water.
• Shot 4 - drop
• Shot 5 - Hybrid again to rough approx 90 yards(uphill) away awkward lie
• Shot 6 - PW to green about 20 feet away
• Shot 7 - Putt for 2 pointer way short
• Shot 8 - Putt for 1 pointer lip out
• Shot 9 - For no points in the hole

Frustrating game!

24 handicap golfer trying to hit a faded driver on a par 5 with two shots makes Greebo-san cry.

This is where the "unfairness" of a high handicap comes in. If I cant afford to hit a driver here, how is it right that you can!?

Redzah

ssbob wrote: »

I did say that to Charlie, I felt it was ridiculous tbh, On both shots I aimed away from the hazard and actually tried to manage the hole as its a long par 5 but made a mess of both swings.......believe me there was plenty of incentive for me to avoid the water!!

I think your point is relevant but I don't know how you'll solve the problem to the general agreement of everyone! I don't personally think I would keep playing golf if I wasn't someway competitive!

Ya, i understand that you need to be competitive but in reality very few of us are anymore due to the level of abuse of handicaps (which is not the issue im talking about here).

My own personal opinion and for the example of this arguement i'm going to assume you have a handicap of 22. the difference between 22 and 18 could be 2 bad shots per round, with an ability to be competitive off 22 then in my opinion you would certain have the ability to be competitive off 18 as it is merely a consistency thing instead of an ability thing. I'm not talking major consistency like hitting lots of greens as otherwise you would be lower but im talking about just keeping the ball in play more and not still having the chance to score on holes where you have hit numerous bad shots.

As i said, this is just my opinion, but i think that 18 as a max is fair and also provides incentive to those who are currently higher than 18 to try play to it to be competitive

Redzah

GreeBo wrote: »

24 handicap golfer trying to hit a faded driver on a par 5 with two shots makes Greebo-san cry.

This is where the "unfairness" of a high handicap comes in. If I cant afford to hit a driver here, how is it right that you can!?

lol, agreed, and again not a go at you SSBOB but i think that you deserved to be punished for your decision making here. I believe everybody should be on a level playing field when it comes to decision making and it forms part of my point that your poor decision making (in the example you gave) possibly forms an inherent part of your handicap. I believe i should not be penalised for this in a competitive situation but possibly you should be punished by having your handicap capped at 18.

ssbob

GreeBo wrote: »

24 handicap golfer trying to hit a faded driver on a par 5 with two shots makes Greebo-san cry.

This is where the "unfairness" of a high handicap comes in. If I cant afford to hit a driver here, how is it right that you can!?

Up until then(my playing partners will testify to this) I was hitting the driver well so decided to stick with it as I felt more confident with that than any other club at that point, after that I reverted to using my hybrid off some tees to mixed results!

Redzah wrote: »

Ya, i understand that you need to be competitive but in reality very few of us are anymore due to the level of abuse of handicaps (which is not the issue im talking about here).

My own personal opinion and for the example of this arguement i'm going to assume you have a handicap of 22. the difference between 22 and 18 could be 2 bad shots per round, with an ability to be competitive off 22 then in my opinion you would certain have the ability to be competitive off 18 as it is merely a consistency thing instead of an ability thing. I'm not talking major consistency like hitting lots of greens as otherwise you would be lower but im talking about just keeping the ball in play more and not still having the chance to score on holes where you have hit numerous bad shots.

As i said, this is just my opinion, but i think that 18 as a max is fair and also provides incentive to those who are currently higher than 18 to try play to it to be competitive

I totally understand your point and I guess if I didn't work 9 to 5 and didn't have a wife and 2 kids I guess I would be able to put more time into the game but thats just not the case. I personally think I could have the ability to be off 18 with some decent practice but when I do get "allowed" play golf I play rather than practice! I think a lot of golfers in the age category 25-45 are in the same boat!

GreeBo

ssbob wrote: »

I totally understand your point and I guess if I didn't work 9 to 5 and didn't have a wife and 2 kids I guess I would be able to put more time into the game but thats just not the case. I personally think I could have the ability to be off 18 with some decent practice but when I do get "allowed" play golf I play rather than practice! I think a lot of golfers in the age category 25-45 are in the same boat!

I guess the counter-argument to that is that you dont need to put time and effort into improving course management, you can do that by lying in bed and just thinking about it...

Speaking frankly, you do have the ability to play to 18, your problem is that you have the course management of a 10 handicap golfer. There is a reason you have 2 shots on that hole yunno (and its not to allow you to 3 putt!)
You have no business hitting a driver off the tee here, and its not because your good drives arent good enough, its because your bad drives are too destructive.

Redzah

ssbob wrote: »

Up until then(my playing partners will testify to this) I was hitting the driver well so decided to stick with it as I felt more confident with that than any other club at that point, after that I reverted to using my hybrid off some tees to mixed results!



I totally understand your point and I guess if I didn't work 9 to 5 and didn't have a wife and 2 kids I guess I would be able to put more time into the game but thats just not the case. I personally think I could have the ability to be off 18 with some decent practice but when I do get "allowed" play golf I play rather than practice! I think a lot of golfers in the age category 25-45 are in the same boat!

Not gonna argue with that but it appears that you are the exact type of golfer i am pointing to in my arguement i.e. the ability to play off 18 but decision making is suspect and is probably factored into your handicap (which i think is unfair). The handicap system should reflect playing ability and not benefit those who may not always make the correct decisions or have the correct focus at times during the round but due to the amount of shots they have still have a chance to recover. Practice is another thing altogether and in an ideal world wouldn't we all love a few hours on the range in the sun on a weekly basis.

Anyways, again to caveat it, its not an attack on you, you just seem to fall into the demographic im talking about.

willabur

GreeBo wrote: »

I guess the counter-argument to that is that you dont need to put time and effort into improving course management, you can do that by lying in bed and just thinking about it...

Speaking frankly, you do have the ability to play to 18, your problem is that you have the course management of a 10 handicap golfer. There is a reason you have 2 shots on that hole yunno (and its not to allow you to 3 putt!)
You have no business hitting a driver off the tee here, and its not because your good drives arent good enough, its because your bad drives are too destructive.

Its an interesting point that requires the golfer to exercise quite a bit of control. If you are already striking the driver well then it is going to be mentally very difficult to not take it out on every hole where it can be used.

Something which helps me is to choose what club I am going to use before the round begins - you are more inclined to then consider a more canny approach to the hole than when after milling a few drives you feel like you take on tiger.

I think a lot also depends on how the golfer themselves interpret their own shots, for some on or just off the fairway is considered a good drive with a lack of consideration of what obstacles they have now just brought into play.

Redzah

willabur wrote: »

Its an interesting point that requires the golfer to exercise quite a bit of control. If you are already striking the driver well then it is going to be mentally very difficult to not take it out on every hole where it can be used.

Something which helps me is to choose what club I am going to use before the round begins - you are more inclined to then consider a more canny approach to the hole than when after milling a few drives you feel like you take on tiger.

I think a lot also depends on how the golfer themselves interpret their own shots, for some on or just off the fairway is considered a good drive with a lack of consideration of what obstacles they have now just brought into play.

Agreed, and the thing is that anybody can make this decision irrespective of playing ability, obviously how the shot pans out is a bit different but it is the sensible shot to play no matter what handicap. I'm not talking about draws, fades, punches here, I'm talking about hitting a club which eliminates as much of the danger as possible and keeping the ball in play. I believe that these smart types of decisions would make any golfer which isn't physically disabled an 18 handicapper and thus my argument for this handicap being the maximum.

GreeBo

willabur wrote: »

Its an interesting point that requires the golfer to exercise quite a bit of control. If you are already striking the driver well then it is going to be mentally very difficult to not take it out on every hole where it can be used.

Something which helps me is to choose what club I am going to use before the round begins - you are more inclined to then consider a more canny approach to the hole than when after milling a few drives you feel like you take on tiger.

I think a lot also depends on how the golfer themselves interpret their own shots, for some on or just off the fairway is considered a good drive with a lack of consideration of what obstacles they have now just brought into play.

Yep thats why its called a plan!
Its something you do in advance, not 10s before you play the shot.
You have a strategy to play each hole, you use tactics when conditions change and warrant a change to the plan. "hitting it well" (imo) does not constitute a good enough reason to change from the plan for the higher levels.

ssbob

I don't think its as straight forward as you suggest though.

Fair enough I should play Par 4's as Par 5's but that doesn't guarantee that I have the ability to 2 - putt every green, I think you are only taking handicap into account on the longer shots but not the shorter ones! And at that you are assuming no tops, duffs or "unmentionables" which invariably happen to all high handicappers in every round!

Its the same old argument each week but why can't people just understand that all different levels have different abilities. I bet neither of your games are course management perfect either but I am not seeking a reduction in your handicaps so that its something you can work towards or should be capable of playing off!!

GreeBo

ssbob wrote: »

I don't think its as straight forward as you suggest though.

Fair enough I should play Par 4's as Par 5's but that doesn't guarantee that I have the ability to 2 - putt every green, I think you are only taking handicap into account on the longer shots but not the shorter ones! And at that you are assuming no tops, duffs or "unmentionables" which invariably happen to all high handicappers in every round!

Its the same old argument each week but why can't people just understand that all different levels have different abilities. I bet neither of your games are course management perfect either but I am not seeking a reduction in your handicaps so that its something you can work towards or should be capable of playing off!!

I dont think even you could putt into the water....twice

the long shots are what control how high your score is, the short ones how low it is.
Everyone has crappy shots and sometimes 3 putts, but thats no reason to start out on the tee playing the hole as if you are a 10 handicap....

ssbob

GreeBo wrote: »

the long shots are what control how high your score is, the short ones how low it is.

I take that point on board!

Redzah

ssbob wrote: »

I don't think its as straight forward as you suggest though.

Fair enough I should play Par 4's as Par 5's but that doesn't guarantee that I have the ability to 2 - putt every green, I think you are only taking handicap into account on the longer shots but not the shorter ones! And at that you are assuming no tops, duffs or "unmentionables" which invariably happen to all high handicappers in every round!

Its the same old argument each week but why can't people just understand that all different levels have different abilities. I bet neither of your games are course management perfect either but I am not seeking a reduction in your handicaps so that its something you can work towards or should be capable of playing off!!

Understand your point SSBOB but 18 is a great benchmark to factor in the tops duffs and unmentionables that are offset against the GIR's and Par's. Nope my course management is not always the best but it is probably consistently better than a majority of high handicappers when it should not be. This should be a level playing field and high handicappers sometimes dont help themselves when it comes to this. My own opinion would be to teach them somewhat of a harsh lesson by capping their handicap at 18 and i believe that it wont take them long to learn how to play to it with good course management

GreeBo

Lads all this agreeing with Redzah is killing me...cant someone poke a hole in his arguments?:D

ssbob

Redzah wrote: »

My own opinion would be to teach them somewhat of a harsh lesson by capping their handicap at 18 and i believe that it wont take them long to learn how to play to it with good course management

Its just not that simple, I am one example but I play with guys who are straight as a dye with great course management but have the most terrible short game you'll ever see 40-45 putts and the most awkward looking chipping/pitching methods, how do you factor this into your argument?

Redzah

GreeBo wrote: »

Lads all this agreeing with Redzah is killing me...cant someone poke a hole in his arguments?:D

Haha, i was thinking the same thing greebo. Throw me out an ol infraction there for being to agreeable or something so that this forum can return to normality

Redzah

ssbob wrote: »

Its just not that simple, I am one example but I play with guys who are straight as a dye with great course management but have the most terrible short game you'll ever see 40-45 putts and the most awkward looking chipping/pitching methods, how do you factor this into your argument?

Hmmm...Can't chip and 40 -45 putts, cricket games can also last the day and get you out of the house, same mechanics

GreeBo

ssbob wrote: »

Its just not that simple, I am one example but I play with guys who are straight as a dye with great course management but have the most terrible short game you'll ever see 40-45 putts and the most awkward looking chipping/pitching methods, how do you factor this into your argument?

Do you think someone who is "terrible" at something should be competitive though? How does that give anyone else a chance in a field of "terrible" people with high handicaps it only takes one of them to be slightly less terrible and boom, everyone else is blown out of the water.

the nature of the handicap system is that this is going to happen to some degree anyway (its easier to be -5 from 18 than it is from 0) but lets not increase it!

Redzah

GreeBo wrote: »

Do you think someone who is "terrible" at something should be competitive though? How does that give anyone else a chance in a field of "terrible" people with high handicaps it only takes one of them to be slightly less terrible and boom, everyone else is blown out of the water.

the nature of the handicap system is that this is going to happen to some degree anyway (its easier to be -5 from 18 than it is from 0) but lets not increase it!

Very good point (again, damn u greebo), so basically what i have trying to be saying in a nutshell is that the most terrible a golfer should allowed to be and still play to their handicap is +18 (90 shots on a standard par 72). I mean a handicap of 28 means that someone can shot 100 :eek: and still have 36 points, this is not fair on the rest of the field in my opinion

willabur

Redzah wrote: »

Very good point (again, damn u greebo), so basically what i have trying to be saying in a nutshell is that the most terrible a golfer should allowed to be and still play to their handicap is +18 (90 shots on a standard par 72). I mean a handicap of 28 means that someone can shot 100 :eek: and still have 36 points, this is not fair on the rest of the field in my opinion

+1

The last competition I played everyone was given a handicap of 0. It meant that the person who played the best golf on the day won the competition. It meant alot of guys scored 10 points or lower but for me it gives them a fairer reflection of where they stand as a golfer.
As for being competitive I would prefer if there was a league structure common to most other sports where the cream rises to the top and you inevitably end up competing with peers. That said it is probably thoroughly impractical in normal club environs

blackwhite

One of my regular playing partners was off 23 until quite recently, and for a period was avoiding playing competitions because his handicap was more likely to go up rather than down! Only since his average round came back to around 100 did he started playing the Sunday competitions again, and a few 36s and a 37 now have him down to 21 (CSS is usually 35 points), despite never finishing in the prizes.

Course management isn't his issue, it's lack of practice. He loses most of his shots on poor middle to short irons, duffed shots and poor putting. He usually hits a 5 iron off the tee, and is usually on the fairway with it. It's the 8-iron (or whatever else) off the deck that is usually where the problems start.

Making him play off 18 would only discourage him further - he's embarrassed to be playing off 21 as it is. At least having his handicap at a level that' achievable enough to give him encouragement, and he gets the satisfaction in being able to slowly chip away at the handicap.

Maybe a good solution would be a rule whereby you have to have a handicap of 18 or lower to be feature in the prizes, and have a separate prize purely for the 18+s?

FixdePitchmark

First of all welcome back Redzah, a 66 last week, I think you should still be in a pub.

Excellent points by Redzah and GreeBo. I think if they disagree on something (as i've seen before) , this thread would have given Ulysses a run for its money.

But, they are missing out on the spirit and intent of the handicap system.

It is an equalisation - warts and all. It does not disqualify on any basis. It is the reason I seen a gent at 80 years of age out practicing golf last week. He has been kept in the game longer than most other games out there.

Should he be excluded because of age. You could make an argument there should be no upper limit. I've an upper limit of 36 in a society, drops are very quick when you win. This has lads playing golf who would never play.

Golf is a mulit-disciplined sport/game. Course management is a part of the game, it should be rewarded if you improve in this area. Assuming everybody can understand this from the off is flawed, it takes experience (even if in bed thinking about), it takes exposure to good players like Redzah and GreeBo - not everybody will have that pain or pleasure.

If somebody decides to improve on this it should rewarded, as putting is. If Greebo decides to improve his long game, it is rewarded, if Redzah...................????????

I improved on course management and got a lower handicap this year, 5 irons off tees, find it boring, but as the lads say you do enjoy the lower scores. Had my best score too this year.

So if you improve in any area your handicap falls.

If we were to speak hypothetically and consider a new handicap system ( as we have here before). I would have the winner as the person who made the greatest % improvement.

so off 20, a 10 % drop is 2.
off 10, a 10 % drop is 1.

Russman

Really interesting thread. Lots of valid opinions.

A few points I would make though, in no particular order,

1) IMO there's not many 5 handicappers "minding" their handicap.

2) As I think someone pointed out, handicap should be to cover ALL your weaknesses, not just technical swing flaws. If someone uses a club they arguably shouldn't, it doesn't invalidate their double bogey. For sure, they could hit an iron, but for a lot of guys, that's no fun, and fun is why they play the game. It shouldn't be compulsory to adhere to what one person regards as a sensible strategy.

3) I used to think anyone with two arms and legs shouldn't be higher than 18, but, having introduced a few new players to the game in the last year or so (mid 30s & healthy), I don't anymore. I know guys that are fit and healthy who play off mid-20s and wouldn't break 100 in a million years, yet they still love the game.

4) Handicap cheats will always exist no matter what system is used, its human nature. You'll never invent a system to beat them. The handicap system is designed to make it so that a 20 handicap can be competitive against a 2 handicap and who wins or loses will be down to the variances on the day, a duffed chip, a long putt holed, a lucky bounce etc. Obviously it will never be perfect but just because a 20 handicapper is "terrible" in some peoples' eyes, doesn't mean he shouldn't have a chance - that's what Scratch Cups and gross prizes are for, if its purely gross scores we're talking about.

5) For higher handicaps, I'd say an 18 handicapper rarely if ever shoots 36pts with 18 bogeys - chances are he'll have a few pars and a few doubles/scratches etc. On the day that, for whatever reason, he has fewer doubles or gets a lucky break, he'll shoot a good score, likely win, and get cut automatically. At the same time I don't buy the argument that if he pars a hole then that's his "potential" etc., golf is based on a full round of 18 holes, not one isolated hole/shot.

6) ESR - meh, a stupid, ill thought out system IMO. Two extreme examples from this year: I was off 8, playing poorly for the longest time (years), in July I had 2 good scores back to back and got cut 2 shots to 6, plus an ESR cut to 5. I lost 3 full shots in 8 days and my stroke average for the year is over 79. Now, I was delighted to lose some shots but would rather do it "normally" so to speak, I would argue that ESR wasn't intended to target players like me.
Second example, I played with a guy a few weeks ago who asked me half way round about the ESR criteria as he was trying to figure out if he'd be cut, and by how much, if he did a score - he decided against doing 40pts in the end. Now, ESR isn't hitting him when it should be - any real bandit will simply not do an exceptional score.

7) Perhaps we should go towards a US or European system that ranks courses. Two 12 handicappers from different clubs in this country could be of vastly different abilities, yet they're both judged to be "equal". That, IMO, is one of the real problems.

Barnaboy

Mr. Larson wrote: »

I've given up fretting over what handicap people are who win whatever prize. It's like road rage, it's no more productive than punching yourself in the face.

I would much rather focus on the most valuable prize there is in golf instead. My handicap. Give me a 0.8 cut over a lamp any day of the week. With modern information and communication systems, online scores etc. you will get far more public respect, kudos (or whatever it is you crave) by posting a good score off a low number than you will by having a collection of lamps and nested tables. You're just going to be sneered at if you play off 24 with a consistent 230yd drive or play off 16 with the ability to hit draws, fades and stingers off the tee.

Sitting in the comfort of my own home on a Sunday evening after a good round, waiting for the scores to appear online, waiting for CSS to see how much I will get cut is altogether more enjoyable evening than hauling ass over to a half empty clubhouse to collect another vase.

Superb post on the subject. Couldn't have put it better myself.

m r c

This topic reminds me of the "public vs private" sector row the government of 2009 started off in this country.

Everyone has a strong opinion on it but at the end of the day their opinion makes feck all difference.


Fwiw I've never met someone who was scratch or better who had any problem with cat 4 handicappers, any of them I know couldn't give a rats ass who wins the main "prize" they are interested with their own game, getting lower, maybe winning lowest gross and doing well in inter club and scratch cups.


Then there's the low single digit who has an issue with the high single digit guys. He can be really bitter because if the other lazy bastard cheating f'er just out a few honest scores "in" we'd all be playing the same game.

So on and so on. It's boring.

Then there's me off 24 desperately wants to be off 4, thinks I'm good enough to be off +4, plays to +4 at the range. Sick to death of the stereo typed idea that anyone off 24 and healthy must be either cheating or ****ed up some other way.

The h/c sustem is of course unfair to those of better ability. By its nature it penalises talent but it keeps the doors open at the golf clubs. Without it there would be no courses for the scratch and better guys.


These threads piss me off btw and the attitude that goes with them too.

Redzah

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

First of all welcome back Redzah, a 66 last week, I think you should still be in a pub.

Excellent points by Redzah and GreeBo. I think if they disagree on something (as i've seen before) , this thread would have given Ulysses a run for its money.

But, they are missing out on the spirit and intent of the handicap system.

It is an equalisation - warts and all. It does not disqualify on any basis. It is the reason I seen a gent at 80 years of age out practicing golf last week. He has been kept in the game longer than most other games out there.

Should he be excluded because of age. You could make an argument there should be no upper limit. I've an upper limit of 36 in a society, drops are very quick when you win. This has lads playing golf who would never play.

Golf is a mulit-disciplined sport/game. Course management is a part of the game, it should be rewarded if you improve in this area. Assuming everybody can understand this from the off is flawed, it takes experience (even if in bed thinking about), it takes exposure to good players like Redzah and GreeBo - not everybody will have that pain or pleasure.

If somebody decides to improve on this it should rewarded, as putting is. If Greebo decides to improve his long game, it is rewarded, if Redzah...................????????

I improved on course management and got a lower handicap this year, 5 irons off tees, find it boring, but as the lads say you do enjoy the lower scores. Had my best score too this year.

So if you improve in any area your handicap falls.

If we were to speak hypothetically and consider a new handicap system ( as we have here before). I would have the winner as the person who made the greatest % improvement.

so off 20, a 10 % drop is 2.
off 10, a 10 % drop is 1.

Thanks fixed, myself and GreeBo have agreed on 2 different threads today and its starting to freak me out.

A couple of things on the above, I highlighted that physically disabled (which i should incl pensioners able bodied or not) could be an exception to the rule to ensure the inclusiveness of our game remains as it is a positive.

Although golf is multidisciplinary I think that a handicap of over 18 is quite unfair and that it gives and individual multiple bites at the cherry for which is not needed for a given ability. It promotes the attitude of being able to hit a driver when it is not necessary because the individual will have numerous chances if it goes wrong, it can be so much shots its almost like a mulligan.

On the point of fun noted by another poster, if some1 likes the fun of hitting a driver, they should not be rewarded with extra shots

GreeBo

m r c wrote: »

The h/c sustem is of course unfair to those of better ability. By its nature it penalises talent but it keeps the doors open at the golf clubs. Without it there would be no courses for the scratch and better guys.


These threads piss me off btw and the attitude that goes with them too.

I dont think there is much wrong with a healthy discussion about things...unless you have something to hide?

What attitude are you referring to, I've mostly just seen people discuss stuff rationally?

Redzah

GreeBo wrote: »

I dont think there is much wrong with a healthy discussion about things...unless you have something to hide?

What attitude are you referring to, I've mostly just seen people discuss stuff rationally?

Agreed, as creator of thread I just thought it would be good to raise seeing as in my opinion it is something that should be reviewed.

Currently the GUI will allow a handicap of up to 28 for males (I think, can anybody confirm?). In my opinion this is too high and should be 18 with the exceptions noted already, I was just interested in other opinions

m r c

GreeBo wrote: »

I dont think there is much wrong with a healthy discussion about things...unless you have something to hide?

What attitude are you referring to, I've mostly just seen people discuss stuff rationally?

Absolutely the discussion is healthy by all means, but asserting that if 24 handicappers concentrated more they could play of 18 is just lol


Lads improve as much as humanly possible for your ability then h/c that person so as they shoot around 1 under when they peak every 8-10 rounds.
Anything else should follow from that,which is how it's supposed to work ATM. Beyond that you/they are likely cheating.

m r c

Redzah wrote: »

Agreed, as creator of thread I just thought it would be good to raise seeing as in my opinion it is something that should be reviewed.

Currently the GUI will allow a handicap of up to 28 for males (I think, can anybody confirm?). In my opinion this is too high and should be 18 with the exceptions noted already, I was just interested in other opinions

Why though should it be higher what's wrong with being worse at golf to the point where you need 28 shots or what's wrong with being in the prizes.

Did u answer already? What's your h/c?

Senecio

The problem with the handicap system is that it is based on average scores and not potential. A 5 HCP golfer will average +8 per round but has the potential to play to +2 on a good day. A 25 HCP golfer will average somewhere in the region of +36 but has the potential to play to +15 on a good day (these numbers are estimates).

On any given day if you put these two golfers up against each, the lower HCP golfer will win the majority of days due to consistency. However if you put a field of 50 x 5 HCP golfers and 50 x 25 HCP golfers together, chances are that one of the 25 HCP golfers will play to their "potential" and run away with 45 plus points and take the prizes.

While the handicapping system is meant to level the playing field, the fact is it doesn't because it doesn't take into account potential. In today's handicapping system, better golfers are rewarded for their consistency and poorer golfers are not punished for their inconsistency.

The only solution that I see is to play all competitions in divisions. Div 3 golfers competing against Div 3 golfers etc.... It just doesn't work any other way.

PARlance

I'll look it up tomorrow but I'm pretty sure there was a report/piece of analysis showing no disproportionate amount of wins in by High HC'ers.

There are lots more High HC'ers playing than low guys, as a group, they'll appear most in the winners circle, they should, lots more of us.

Sure there are a few 24's out there minding an 18 handicap... But an 18 HC'er by nature, can't turn it on whenever they want.

I'd say there are a lot more lads minding 3 or 4 shots in the low-mid teens. They're the ones I'd be more afraid of. No max HC stops that

Senecio

ajcurry123 wrote: »

I'll look it up tomorrow but I'm pretty sure there was a report/piece of analysis showing no disproportionate amount of wins in by High HC'ers.

There are lots more High HC'ers playing than low guys, as a group, they'll appear most in the winners circle, they should, lots more of us.

Sure there are a few 24's out there minding an 18 handicap... But an 18 HC'er by nature, can't turn it on whenever they want.

I'd say there are a lot more lads minding 3 or 4 shots in the low-mid teens. They're the ones I'd be more afraid of. No max HC stops that

I'd honestly like to see the analysis. I never claimed that it was disproportionate, in fact if there are more higher HCP players in the field it supports my theory about potential. How often do 5 HCP golfers shoot 43 plus points and how often do you see a competition won with less than 43 points?

A high HCP golfer doesn't have to "turn it on" to shoot low against their HCP. it will just happen occasionally because they have the potential to do so. Think of a normal distribution or a bell curve. A low HCP golfer has a much narrower distribution than a high HCP golfer.