Par 3s - Tee or not

the lawman

My game is improving all the time and I've been checking off the weakness's every few months.

I'm now into short irons off tees on Par 3 holes. I can compress quite confidently with my irons on a fairway but stick the ball on the tee and there is a mental block somewhere and I'm likely to do anything. Not sure what it is really maybe I've drilled the whole 'hitting down' so much that when I feel the ball is a few mm in the air I get blocked.

Anyway I've been thinking of just losing the tee altogether for all irons off tees. But not sure if that's the answer.

Anyone have similar happen? Any suggestions?

I haven't come across many threads on topic but feel free to move Mods if its been done elsewhere.

ForeRight

Some course have local rules to say you must use a tee on all par 3's

Personally I think you are at a massive disadvantage shooting off the ground on a par 3.

Even the pros tee it up if even only by a tiny amount.

You can compress the ball well off the ground so just practice it off a teed ball in the range. It's in your head I'd imagine.

the lawman

I agree I think it's a head thing. It's like a block where I think about 'picking' the ball in middle of backswing which of course leads to wildness.

Be interested to see if anyone has experienced it.

GreeBo

try take a divot when the ball is on a tee...

the lawman

GreeBo wrote: »

try take a divot when the ball is on a tee...

As obvious as that is it might be just the 'drill' to work on at the range.

big_drive

Jack Nickaus said he couldn't believe anyone wouldn't use the advantage of being able to use a tee. His word is good enough for me!!

ShivasIrons

Teeing it up means you always get a perfect lie, why turn that opportunity down?

Taking a divot doesn't mean you're compressing the ball, it's not necessary to take a divot to compress it also.

Seve OB

ForeRight wrote: »

Some course have local rules to say you must use a tee on all par 3's

Are you taking the p155? I've never heard of that in my life.

OP I completely understand where you are coming from.

Tee your ball up all the time though, but shove the tee well into the ground. Just cause you are using a tee, it doesn't have to be an inch in the sky!

ForeRight

stevieob wrote: »

Are you taking the p155? I've never heard of that in my life.
!

Why would I be taking the piss with that?

I played stackstown last week and there was a sign on all par 3's saying it was compulsory to use a tee.

J6P

Rarely use a tee myself unless playing links when the ground is hard.

I was having the same problems..probably caused by teeing it up at inconsistent heights...since playing off the ground all the time I find myself striking the ball more consistantly.

charlieIRL

2 shot penalty if your caught not using a tee in a competition in moate!!

I agree though, protect the tee box

Rikand

There are some courses in the midlands who still have a local rule that you must use a tee on par 3's.

Simple enough to get around. Take a small tee, shove it right into the turf so its lower than grass level and put your ball on top of it. Sorted!

ForeRight

Rickylovesuall wrote: »

There are some courses in the midlands who still have a local rule that you must use a tee on par 3's.

Simple enough to get around. Take a small tee, shove it right into the turf so its lower than grass level and put your ball on top of it. Sorted!

Sneaky divel

shane0007

I would always use the advantage of a tee. I generally use a broken stump of a tee found around the tee block, keeping as low as possible but giving me as consistent a lie for every tee shot.

the lawman

I agree about the perfect lie and taking advantage of your right to do this.

I'm gonna work on this at the range as per GreeBo's post. Tee head right into the ground and pretty much level with grass. Practice hitting down as I did when practicing from fairway.

WHIP IT!

big_drive wrote: »

Jack Nickaus said he couldn't believe anyone wouldn't use the advantage of being able to use a tee. His word is good enough for me!!

Yep, I'm sure it was Nicklaus who said words to the effect of: "I've always found that air has less resistance than dirt for a golfball..." when asked about using a tee-peg on a par-three.

shane0007

WHIP IT! wrote: »

Yep, I'm sure it was Nicklaus who said words to the effect of: "I've always found that air has less resistance than dirt for a golfball..." when asked about using a tee-peg on a par-three.

They also say that trees are 90% air but I always seem to find the blasted 10% wood!

dan_ep82

Before I started playing Golf I was playing Pitch & Putt regular and its all off Tee's from a short distance (longest hole at my local is 70m) so while my driver Tee off can be wayward my short iron tee off's are very consistent. Might be worth going once a week to your local

the lawman

dan_ep82 wrote: »

Before I started playing Golf I was playing Pitch & Putt regular and its all off Tee's from a short distance (longest hole at my local is 70m) so while my driver Tee off can be wayward my short iron tee off's are very consistent. Might be worth going once a week to your local

Cheers but I spent all my youth playing P&P but I was always 'picking' the ball so different the way I play now.

It's a good point though and maybe its a good place to practice.

Wombatman

big_drive wrote: »

Jack Nickaus said he couldn't believe anyone wouldn't use the advantage of being able to use a tee. His word is good enough for me!!

He recalls betting the late Stu Ungar $300,000 that Ungar couldn’t shoot 130 for eighteen holes. Now, for the uninitiated, you can probably hit 130 using a two-by-four. Ungar took the bet… and then proceeded to whiff his first eight swings off the tee.

But Ungar occasionally got the best of Dewey, too. Tomko once bet Ungar $100,000 that he couldn’t beat Dewey even when teeing off from the 150-yard markers and using a tee anytime, anywhere. So Ungar showed up with every length of tee imaginable, and teed it up out of rough, out of water hazards, out of anything that could possibly have impeded his shot. And that time, Ungar took home the coin.

http://www.bluff.com/magazine/ace-of-clubs-5851/

Freemount09

shane0007 wrote: »

I would always use the advantage of a tee. I generally use a broken stump of a tee found around the tee block, keeping as low as possible but giving me as consistent a lie for every tee shot.

Wasn't there a post here before about some d**k who tried to pull a guy up for doing this as against the rules ? His argument was he was using defective equiptment so it breached rule # .. ... ?

OilBeefHooked2

Freemount09 wrote: »

Wasn't there a post here before about some d**k who tried to pull a guy up for doing this as against the rules ? His argument was he was using defective equiptment so it breached rule # .. ... ?

Yes and there's always some one willing to bite, isn't there?.
OP You'd want your head examined not to take advantage of every bit of help you can get.

Wombatman

We did this subject in May BTW.

See "Using a tee or hitting off the ground?"
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056952184

I don't use a tee. I hit most of my irons off fairways not using a tee. I don't use a tee in practice for these clubs. Why change everything by using a tee on these holes?

I see guys teeing it so low, just to do it, where it is clearly making no difference.

ForeRight

Wombatman wrote: »

We did this subject in May BTW.

See "Using a tee or hitting off the ground?"
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056952184

I don't use a tee. I hit most of my irons off fairways not using a tee. I don't use a tee in practice for these clubs. Why change everything by using a tee on these holes?

I see guys teeing it so low, just to do it, where it is clearly making no difference.

Why do pros use a tee of it makes no difference?

GreeBo

Wombatman wrote: »

We did this subject in May BTW.

See "Using a tee or hitting off the ground?"
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056952184

I don't use a tee. I hit most of my irons off fairways not using a tee. I don't use a tee in practice for these clubs. Why change everything by using a tee on these holes?

I see guys teeing it so low, just to do it, where it is clearly making no difference.

Do you use a tee with your *fairway* woods from the tee?
A tee gives your ball the perfect lie. It can help to eliminate hitting it heavy, you can even hit up on it if you wanted to.

Whats the down side?

ForeRight

GreeBo wrote: »

Do you use a tee with your *fairway* woods from the tee?
A tee gives your ball the perfect lie. It can help to eliminate hitting it heavy, you can even hit up on it if you wanted to.

Whats the down side?

IMO people who don't use a tee on a par 3 do it for one reason and one reason only.

To show off!!!

Wombatman

ForeRight wrote: »

Why do pros use a tee of it makes no difference?

You tell me?

GreeBo wrote: »

Do you use a tee with your *fairway* woods from the tee?
A tee gives your ball the perfect lie. It can help to eliminate hitting it heavy, you can even hit up on it if you wanted to.

Whats the down side?

Don't use tee with fairway wood.

The down side is you are not hitting it off the turf. All shots I play with irons or *fairway woods* are off the turf. I keep this consistency by not using a tee on par 3s, leading to ......... more consistency.

Bringing a new element into it is only complicating the formula. How high should I tee it? Should I loft or deloft etc now that I'm on a tee.

If there is a distinct, explainable, advantage then by all means do it , but I could never see this advantage.

Above is my reasoning why for better or worse. Please provide a reasoned argument and not .... the pros do it or some guy said it was good.

ForeRight

You seem to have it all worked out wombat. Each to their own.

Good luck with it.

the lawman

david-k wrote: »

Yes and there's always some one willing to bite, isn't there?.
OP You'd want your head examined not to take advantage of every bit of help you can get.

I'm not actively trying to not use tees at all. I'm just saying that when I do I get blocked mid-swing and hit some awful shots that I don't do on fairways etc. The thread was just looking for similar experiences from others.

I took GreeBo's advice as it happens and went to range and just hit down on the teed ball. Didn't think of it on the tee at all and I hit it much better.

Thanks for that GreeBo.

GreeBo

Wombatman wrote: »

You tell me?



Don't use tee with fairway wood.

The down side is you are not hitting it off the turf. All shots I play with irons or *fairway woods* are off the turf. I keep this consistency by not using a tee on par 3s, leading to ......... more consistency.

Bringing a new element into it is only complicating the formula. How high should I tee it? Should I loft or deloft etc now that I'm on a tee.

If there is a distinct, explainable, advantage then by all means do it , but I could never see this advantage.

Above is my reasoning why for better or worse. Please provide a reasoned argument and not .... the pros do it or some guy said it was good.

I've never had a lie on the fairway that was the same as another lie, so I'm not sure if the consistency argument stacks up.
However, from the tee, all my lies are pretty much the same (bar the odd dodgy teeing ground)

I dont do anything any differently bar possibly move the ball forward or backwards if Im teeing it an unusual height for some reason. I cant see where adding/removing loft comes into it?

The distinct advantage is that you have the ball off the ground, so you have more margin for error for hitting it fat and less chance of getting crap between the clubhead and the ball.
Thats good enough for me.

Wombatman

GreeBo wrote: »

I've never had a lie on the fairway that was the same as another lie, so I'm not sure if the consistency argument stacks up.
However, from the tee, all my lies are pretty much the same (bar the odd dodgy teeing ground)

I dont do anything any differently bar possibly move the ball forward or backwards if Im teeing it an unusual height for some reason. I cant see where adding/removing loft comes into it?

The distinct advantage is that you have the ball off the ground, so you have more margin for error for hitting it fat and less chance of getting crap between the clubhead and the ball.
Thats good enough for me.

Not trying to be facetious or augmentative, but are you not increasing you chances of hitting a flyer by the same token. If you are prone to hit it fat you shouldn't be compensating for it by using a tee you should change something in your 'swing' on the range. It’s a game of mm's so why raise up the ball from where you usually hit it on the range?

The ideal practice spot for fairway clubs is a flat grass range. Do you use a tee on the range? Probably not. You more easily reproduce your work on the range by not using a tee and hitting off the flat turf.

Consistency.

The crap between the ball point if weak. You can place the ball anywhere you want. Just pick a good spot.

Redzah

Wombatman wrote: »

You tell me?



Don't use tee with fairway wood.

The down side is you are not hitting it off the turf. All shots I play with irons or *fairway woods* are off the turf. I keep this consistency by not using a tee on par 3s, leading to ......... more consistency.

Bringing a new element into it is only complicating the formula. How high should I tee it? Should I loft or deloft etc now that I'm on a tee.

If there is a distinct, explainable, advantage then by all means do it , but I could never see this advantage.

Above is my reasoning why for better or worse. Please provide a reasoned argument and not .... the pros do it or some guy said it was good.

Good luck wombat, you must be an excellent ball striker, a fairway wood off the deck is a difficult enough shot as it is so i can't see why u don't use a tee. Just tee it low and hit the exact same shot with it, as greebo has said the difference is less friction and also you will hit the ball marginally higher on the club face which will result in a purer strike and higher launch angle (soemtimes the ball will shoot off low from a fairway wood unless you cut/slice it. Also, as it hits marginally higher on the face it should have a better more penetrating flight (although it will fly higher, it should have more topspin and thus will have a purer flight.

In relation to an iron off the tee, then the benefit again will be the purity of the flight/strike and the fact that the grooves should have a slightly longer contact time with the ball to promote spin on the ball.

In relation to your trivialisation of the point that the pro's do it, well this is their job and thus their knowledge of the game is extremely strong. If they use it (which i suspect are for some of the reasons highlight above) then surely you cannot underestimate that this is the best thing to do. Of course there is the odd few pro's that may not and in the amateur stakes yourself but the majority do because it is a widely known benefit to a player.

One other reason i suspect, is that there is a greater margin for error when using a tee as to not using a tee as a tee is used to provide the perfect lie to centre the ball on the club face, without using a tee the ball can be slightly below centre of the club face.

GreeBo

Wombatman wrote: »

Not trying to be facetious or augmentative, but are you not increasing you chances of hitting a flyer by the same token. If you are prone to hit it fat you shouldn't be compensating for it by using a tee you should change something in your 'swing' on the range. It’s a game of mm's so why raise up the ball from where you usually hit it on the range?

The ideal practice spot for fairway clubs is a flat grass range. Do you use a tee on the range? Probably not. You more easily reproduce your work on the range by not using a tee and hitting off the flat turf.

Consistency.

The crap between the ball point if weak. You can place the ball anywhere you want. Just pick a good spot.

Id take a thin shot over a heavy one off the tee every single time.

I'm not prone to hitting it fat, but from the tee fat is worse than thin pretty much every time. Fat is incredibly destructive, its rare enough that over the back of a par 3 is much worse than short.

I use a tee on the range if I am practicing tee shots.

I dont see how you can argue for consistency when no two fairway lies are the same tbh.

I tee the ball up maybe 5mm for an iron; I'm perfectly happy to accept that my swing positions change by at least 5mm on each shot; are you seriously trying to say that yours doesnt and so you practice to this level of repeatable accuracy?
Are you Iron Byron?

Pick a good spot, thats sitting on the grass, thus you increase the chances of getting crap between the club and ball with any imperfect hit.

You might not like it, but until you can explain why the pros do it you are going to have a hard time convincing anyone else not to tbh.

Redzah

Wombatman wrote: »

Not trying to be facetious or augmentative, but are you not increasing you chances of hitting a flyer by the same token. If you are prone to hit it fat you shouldn't be compensating for it by using a tee you should change something in your 'swing' on the range. It’s a game of mm's so why raise up the ball from where you usually hit it on the range?

The ideal practice spot for fairway clubs is a flat grass range. Do you use a tee on the range? Probably not. You more easily reproduce your work on the range by not using a tee and hitting off the flat turf.

Consistency.

The crap between the ball point if weak. You can place the ball anywhere you want. Just pick a good spot.

I believe (must check to confirm) a flyer occurs when a small bit of grass is trapped between the clubface and the ball, if anything a tee will further eliminate this risk.

GreeBo

Redzah wrote: »

I believe (must check to confirm) a flyer occurs when a small bit of grass is trapped between the clubface and the ball, if anything a tee will further eliminate this risk.

I assume he meant thin it...

Redzah

Wombatman wrote: »

Not trying to be facetious or augmentative, but are you not increasing you chances of hitting a flyer by the same token. If you are prone to hit it fat you shouldn't be compensating for it by using a tee you should change something in your 'swing' on the range. It’s a game of mm's so why raise up the ball from where you usually hit it on the range?

The ideal practice spot for fairway clubs is a flat grass range. Do you use a tee on the range? Probably not. You more easily reproduce your work on the range by not using a tee and hitting off the flat turf.

Consistency.

The crap between the ball point if weak. You can place the ball anywhere you want. Just pick a good spot.

Wombatman, i'd be interested to hear what your handicap is? I know there would be a small niche of category 1 players and also pro's (very much a minority) who are such pure ball strikers that they prefer not to use a tee as they are not concerned over the margin of error. If you fit into this extremely rare category then fair play to you and can i have lessons . However, if you don't then it is foolish in my opinion to continue with this approach and also not the best advice to give out.

Redzah

GreeBo wrote: »

I assume he meant thin it...

Possibly, but isn't there a greater risk of both thin and fat with the ball not on a tee. The biggest risk with a ball on a tee (minimal risk) is too high up the club and a high ball flight (maybe this is what he meant by flyer although misleading).

GreeBo

Redzah wrote: »

Possibly, but isn't there a greater risk of both thin and fat with the ball not on a tee. The biggest risk with a ball on a tee (minimal risk) is too high up the club and a high ball flight (maybe this is what he meant by flyer although misleading).

agreed, there is a bigger chance of a mis hit without a tee.
The worst that can happen/be caused by using a tee is that you hit the ball too high on the clubface and lose some distance...again Id take that over fat or thin anyday.

Wombatman

Redzah wrote: »

Wombatman, i'd be interested to hear what your handicap is? I know there would be a small niche of category 1 players and also pro's (very much a minority) who are such pure ball strikers that they prefer not to use a tee as they are not concerned over the margin of error. If you fit into this extremely rare category then fair play to you and can i have lessons . However, if you don't then it is foolish in my opinion to continue with this approach and also not the best advice to give out.

My handicap is irrelevant. We are discussing the mechanics of hitting the ball off the tee with fairway clubs vs not. I could participate in this debate and not even play golf.

I'm not giving out any advice. I'm just explaining why I don't use one. I wasn't going to mention it until I saw posts like 'You are dumb if your don't' or 'The pros do it so you should do it'.

One should explore, understand and explain the reason why the pros do it, rather than just citing the fact.

You gave a very good explanation as to why you believe it is advantageous to use a tee and I appreciate this.

GreeBo

Wombatman wrote: »

My handicap is irrelevant. We are discussing the mechanics of hitting the ball off the tee with fairway clubs vs not. I could participate in this debate and not even play golf.

You could alright, but I dont think anyone would listen.
Dis-regarding what the greatest players of the game do because you dont understand why is a little naive.
Do you fully understand thermo-dynamics, micro-electronics, electricity, the trans-phases of matter, latent heat?
If not you really shouldnt be using that kettle to make your tea, its sensible to take advantage of the work done by others, its how we advance.


Anytime you are working on swing changes you are encouraged to do it with a 7iron and the ball teed up, this is so you dont have to worry about perfect contact while you get used to the swing change; teeing it up makes it easier to hit, not harder.

Wombatman

GreeBo wrote: »

You could alright, but I dont think anyone would listen.
Dis-regarding what the greatest players of the game do because you dont understand why is a little naive.
Do you fully understand thermo-dynamics, micro-electronics, electricity, the trans-phases of matter, latent heat?
If not you really shouldnt be using that kettle to make your tea, its sensible to take advantage of the work done by others, its how we advance.


Anytime you are working on swing changes you are encouraged to do it with a 7iron and the ball teed up, this is so you dont have to worry about perfect contact while you get used to the swing change; teeing it up makes it easier to hit, not harder.

Well at least one of us tried not to be facetious.

Do you use the putting stroke the majority of pros use? Should we all adopt this stroke?

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."

Fair play to Redzah for trying to do this.

It is healthy to explore all aspects of the game like this. The prevailing techniques in all sports, often adopted without questioning, evolve over time.

How do you think this happens?

GreeBo

Wombatman wrote: »

Well at least one of us tried not to be facetious.

Do you use the putting stroke the majority of pros use? Should we all adopt this stroke?

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."

Fair play to Redzah for trying to do this.

It is healthy to explore all aspects of the game like this. The prevailing techniques in all sports, often adopted without questioning, evolve over time.

How do you think this happens?

I'm not being facetious at all actually.
We evolved to using tees, before that it was a clump of sand, before that nothing.
You are the one advocating going back to something we have already evolved beyond.

What is the putting stroke that the majority of the pros use? I've never seen one.

Also I dont need to understand why a tee is better, I can experience it. The exact same way I witness that my kettle is better at boiling water than an open fire or my computer is better than an abacus.

gorfield

I rarely use a tee on a par 3.

Reasons: I hit many many balls on the practice ground with my irons, all off turf, all my fairway iron shots are from the turf. So why bring in a tee and tee the ball up if ive rarely ever hit a shot this way or practiced it? I will find a nice lie on the tee obviously.

Only exception is if its a long iron into the wind and i want to take spin off it.

My 2cents

GreeBo

gorfield wrote: »

I rarely use a tee on a par 3.

Reasons: I hit many many balls on the practice ground with my irons, all off turf, all my fairway iron shots are from the turf. So why bring in a tee and tee the ball up if ive rarely ever hit a shot this way or practiced it? I will find a nice lie on the tee obviously.

Only exception is if its a long iron into the wind and i want to take spin off it.

My 2cents

Serious question. Do you reckon you hit more than your average pro does?
I watched Ollie at the Irish Open hit balls off the deck without a tee for about 2 hours.
He still uses an tee, just as the vast majority of the rest of them do. Why is this if its introducing an inconsistency as you (and wombatman) suggest and their lives revolve around being consistent?

gorfield

GreeBo wrote: »

Serious question. Do you reckon you hit more than your average pro does?
I watched Ollie at the Irish Open hit balls off the deck without a tee for about 2 hours.
He still uses an tee, just as the vast majority of the rest of them do. Why is this if its introducing an inconsistency as you (and wombatman) suggest and their lives revolve around being consistent?

I obviously hit less balls than a pro, i only gave my opinion, im not, like some on here, claiming their opinion to be absolutely the gospel. I cant say for sure if every single tour player uses a tee tbh. Some do, some don't id imagine.

Redzah

gorfield wrote: »

I rarely use a tee on a par 3.

Reasons: I hit many many balls on the practice ground with my irons, all off turf, all my fairway iron shots are from the turf. So why bring in a tee and tee the ball up if ive rarely ever hit a shot this way or practiced it? I will find a nice lie on the tee obviously.

Only exception is if its a long iron into the wind and i want to take spin off it.

My 2cents

Gorfield i'd be interested to know why you not (aside from the above)? Obviously we are aware of your playing capabilities so is it a case of you being so confident in your abilities that you are not concerned that the margin for error has decreased by not using a tee?

Any thoughts as to why you would be in the minority on this point at a top amateur/professional level on this?

gorfield

Redzah wrote: »

Gorfield i'd be interested to know why you not (aside from the above)? Obviously we are aware of your playing capabilities so is it a case of you being so confident in your abilities that you are not concerned that the margin for error has decreased by not using a tee?

Any thoughts as to why you would be in the minority on this point at a top amateur/professional level on this?

I dont know tbh, my strengths are iron play and distance control so maybe im being pedantic in eliminating a tee as an outside agency. I dont think the margin of error changes at my level as long as i give myself a good lie on the tee.

GreeBo

gorfield wrote: »

I obviously hit less balls than a pro, i only gave my opinion, im not, like some on here, claiming their opinion to be absolutely the gospel. I cant say for sure if every single tour player uses a tee tbh. Some do, some don't id imagine.

I'm not claiming my opinion to be gospel if thats what you are so subtly implying:rolleyes:

I'm just trying to understand the logic behind your choice when it goes against what the best in the world seem to think (in the main).

Wombatman

GreeBo wrote: »

Serious question. Do you reckon you hit more than your average pro does?

Do you really think that is a serious question?

Why is this if its introducing an inconsistency as you (and wombatman) suggest and their lives revolve around being consistent?

I was under the impression you knew the answer to this, our main question? If you don't have any real insight to contribute, other than the pros do it so I do it, please keep out of it.

Did Olly use any tees with this fairway clubs on the Range btw?

Redzah

gorfield wrote: »

I dont know tbh, my strengths are iron play and distance control so maybe im being pedantic in eliminating a tee as an outside agency. I dont think the margin of error changes at my level as long as i give myself a good lie on the tee.

Fair enough, to be honest without knowing you, it seems a bit pedantic but obviously it works for you. I'm operating at what i would say is a clear level below you (senior cup level) but i certainly would always see the advantage in a tee for the above reasons highlighted.

Redzah

Wombatman wrote: »

I was under the impression you knew the answer to this, our main question? If you don't have any real insight to contribute, other than the pros do it so I do it, please keep out of it.

Did Olly use any tees with this fairway clubs on the Range btw?

Irrespective of gorfields views on using with his irons, I would argue tooth and nail with any top amateur or pro regarding the use of a tee for a fairway wood