Dairy products and prostate cancer

cruhoortwunk

Not that these kind of studies would ever be heard about here in Ireland, with the national dairy council and IFA and their lobbying power. But interesting to go looking around for studies on the link between dairy and prostate cancer.
http://medizinische-fitness.org/uplo...ancer_risk.pdf

"Men in the highest categories of dairy product and calcium
intakes had a statistically significant 30% greater risk of prostate cancer than did those in the lowest consumption cate-
gories (Table 2). We observed significant, positive linear trends
for both dairy product and calcium intakes. Each additional 500
mg Ca from dairy products consumed per day corresponded to a
16% increase in risk of prostate cancer (P= 0.03)."

cruhoortwunk

Prostate cancel levels by country:
http://www.wcrf.org/cancer_statistic...statistics.php

Milk consumption per country:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ion_per_capita

Big links between those two. If you filter out the Afro countries (they have a genetic predisposition to it) in the prostate cancer list, you will see a big correlation.

LuckyLloyd

Correalation =! Causation

Brian?

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Correalation =! Causation

And in this case there isn't even really a correlation.

cruhoortwunk

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Correalation =! Causation

You could argue that all medical trials are based on correlation. Patient A takes pill a and recovers faster than Patient B that doesn't take pill a. That's just a correlation. May well be a coincidence or caused by other factors.

So do you apply the same logic to this?

Alf Veedersane

cruhoortwunk wrote: »

You could argue that all medical trials are based on correlation. Patient A takes pill a and recovers faster than Patient B that doesn't take pill a. That's just a correlation. May well be a coincidence or caused by other factors.

So do you apply the same logic to this?

There's a difference between drawing a conclusion from actual clinical trials and drawing a conclusion from two sets of statistics.

Brian?

cruhoortwunk wrote: »

You could argue that all medical trials are based on correlation. Patient A takes pill a and recovers faster than Patient B that doesn't take pill a. That's just a correlation. May well be a coincidence or caused by other factors.

So do you apply the same logic to this?

That's a poor understanding of how medical trials work.

I'd recommend reading "Bad Science" by Ben Goldacre. He has quite a good blog as well.

deadlybuzzman

Brian? wrote: »

That's a poor understanding of how medical trials work.

I'd recommend reading "Bad Science" by Ben Goldacre. He has quite a good blog as well.

The best book I've ever read, Its mind blowing how rampant fiddling studies is.
I now don't believe a single study that comes out after having my eyes opened.

jigglypuffstuff

Brian? wrote: »

That's a poor understanding of how medical trials work.

I'd recommend reading "Bad Science" by Ben Goldacre. He has quite a good blog as well.

I second this.

I was made read it as part of my first year psychology modules regarding research methods. An excellent read and will open anyones eyes

The repeated slaughtering of Gillian McKeith is just brilliant!! :pac:

Alf Veedersane

pone2012 wrote: »

The repeated slaughtering of Gillian McKeith is just brilliant!! :pac:

if only it was an actual slaughtering...

cruhoortwunk

A few more interesting articles on the link between dairy and other types of cancer too:
http://freefromharm.org/health-nutrition/21-experts-on-the-dairy-breast-cancer-connection/

Alf Veedersane

Will it be ok to drink milk if I wear a tin hat?

Hawkeye1

yes

cruhoortwunk

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Will it be ok to drink milk if I wear a tin hat?

Ah the old tin hat line. The preserve of the narrow minded man who can't process any theory other than what the mass consensus believes

Alf Veedersane

cruhoortwunk wrote: »

Ah the old tin hat line. The preserve of the narrow minded man who can't process any theory other than what the mass consensus believes

I am a man of science. i have read the studies and I don't buy it. As has been said correlation isn't the same as causation.

But feel free to continue on your mission to foist your opinions on others.

cruhoortwunk

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

I am a man of science. i have read the studies and I don't buy it. As has been said correlation isn't the same as causation.

But feel free to continue on your mission to foist your opinions on others.

So you just choose which studies you 'buy'? Hmm I don't like the outcome of this, so I don't buy it.
I'm not foisting at all, just making more people aware of them

Alf Veedersane

cruhoortwunk wrote: »

So you just choose which studies you 'buy'? Hmm I don't like the outcome of this, so I don't buy it.
I'm not foisting at all, just making more people aware of them

You're giving evidence from studies that show a correlation that aren't hugely convincing. It's not exactly akin to basing theories of quantum physics on the theoretical existence of the Higgs boson. I don't really drink milk so I don't have to worry, either way. But your attitude in this thread can be summed up by "Enjoy your pints of cancer".

Rubylolz

Another nutritionist very against the use of dairy in our diet - http://www.patrickholford.com/

Apparently cancer rates in india \ japan etc are phenomenally lower than in western world an they only difference those in the know can find between our diets \ every day lives is the amount of dairy that the western world consumes?... maybe it is crap but it makes ya think....

Honey-ec

Rubylolz wrote: »

Apparently cancer rates in india \ japan etc are phenomenally lower than in western world an they only difference those in the know can find between our diets \ every day lives is the amount of dairy that the western world consumes?

You honestly think that the only significant difference in lifestyle between Oriental and Occidental cultures is dairy consumption? Honestly?

Rubylolz

Honey-ec wrote: »

You honestly think that the only significant difference in lifestyle between Oriental and Occidental cultures is dairy consumption? Honestly?

Rubylolz wrote: »

Apparently cancer rates in india \ japan etc are phenomenally lower than in western world an they only difference those in the know can find between our diets \ every day lives is the amount of dairy that the western world consumes?... maybe it is crap but it makes ya think....

... I'm only an interested reader of others findings! An it was actually in one of his books - Patrick Holford - that I read it? I'm not saying its gospel but it is interesting... he did also mention there intake of fish being so much higher and also there intake of processed meats being so much lower... but dairy was his biggie...

Alf Veedersane

Rubylolz wrote: »

... I'm only an interested reader of others findings! An it was actually in one of his books - Patrick Holford - that I read it? I'm not saying its gospel but it is interesting... he did also mention there intake of fish being so much higher and also there intake of processed meats being so much lower... but dairy was his biggie...

What else did he also mention?

ciarak7511

I would be very suspicious of any statistics like this, you should read 'Bad Science' by Ben Goldacre, explains these things a lot better than I could!

he also exposes a lot of what Patrick Holford says to be absolute rubbish and pretty biased when you find out Holford's affiliations

http://www.badscience.net/about-dr-ben-goldacre/

http://www.badscience.net/2007/01/doctoring-the-records/ ( on patrick holford)

Brian?

Rubylolz wrote: »

Another nutritionist very against the use of dairy in our diet - http://www.patrickholford.com/

Apparently cancer rates in india \ japan etc are phenomenally lower than in western world an they only difference those in the know can find between our diets \ every day lives is the amount of dairy that the western world consumes?... maybe it is crap but it makes ya think....

It makes me think Mr. Holford is a charlatan .

Manchegan

Brian? wrote: »

It makes me think Mr. Holford is a charlatan .

Anyone on the Autism/MMR bandwagon is automatically suspect.

Brian?

Manchegan wrote: »

Anyone on the Autism/MMR bandwagon is automatically suspect.

Given the weight if actual research I'd say anyone on the particular bandwagon is more than suspect.

Children are dying in first world countries of completely preventable diseases like measles because of some terribly conducted research.

Anyone still peddling the autism/MMR should be ashamed of themselves. It's killing children.

Mr. CooL ICE

Ireland has the highest rate of coeliac disease in Europe. Irish people eat the most potatoes in Europe. Potatoes cause coeliac disease.

Enjoy your bowel desroying tubers.

Nonoperational

cruhoortwunk wrote: »

A few more interesting articles on the link between dairy and other types of cancer too:
http://freefromharm.org/health-nutrition/21-experts-on-the-dairy-breast-cancer-connection/

Ah, the ol "throw up a dubious link full of bizarre unprovable claims and call anyone that questions it narrow minded" stunt. Well played.

cruhoortwunk

Nonoperational wrote: »

Ah, the ol "throw up a dubious link full of bizarre unprovable claims and call anyone that questions it narrow minded" stunt. Well played.

How about the UK National Cancer Institute, cancer.gov, do you find that any more reputable?
'A diet high in dairy foods and calcium may cause a small increase in the risk of prostate cancer.'

http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/pdq/prevention/prostate/Patient/page3

cruhoortwunk

Honey-ec wrote: »

You honestly think that the only significant difference in lifestyle between Oriental and Occidental cultures is dairy consumption? Honestly?

It's not the only one, no-one is claiming that. But it is one of the major ones.

cruhoortwunk

Q: Do dairy products cause cancer? And if you don’t drink milk, how do you get all the calcium you need?
A: Recent scientific studies have suggested that dairy products may be linked to increased risk for prostate cancer, testicular cancer, and possibly for ovarian and breast cancers.
Prostate cancer has been linked to dairy products in several studies. In Harvard’s Physicians Health Study, including more than 20,000 male physicians, those who consumed more than two dairy servings daily had a 34% higher risk of developing prostate cancer than men who consumed little or no dairy products. Several other studies have shown much the same thing.
Several mechanisms have been proposed to explain this association. Dairy product consumption increases levels of insulin-like growth factor I (IGF-1) in the bloodstream. IGF-1 is a potent stimulus for cancer cell growth. High IGF-1 levels are linked to increased risk of prostate cancer and breast cancer.
Calcium may also play a role in prostate cancer. Although the body needs some calcium, a high calcium load results in a lowering of blood levels of activated vitamin D. In the case of prostate cancer, where vitamin D is thought to be protective, high dairy intake could therefore have a harmful effect.
For ovarian cancer, galactose, a component of the milk sugar lactose, has been under study as a possible culprit. A recent analysis of studies examining a relationship between dairy product consumption and ovarian cancer risk found that for every 10 grams of lactose consumed (the amount in one glass of milk), ovarian cancer risk increased by 13 percent.
In contrast to these findings, a 2001 Norwegian study concluded that milk consumption reduces breast cancer risk in premenopausal women. However, breast cancer is uncommon in premenopausal women (only 0.6 percent in this study). Also, the study relied solely on self-reported milk intake during adulthood and the recollection of milk intake during childhood, not on key blood markers related to breast cancer risk or overall dairy product intake.
The nutrient that was hypothesized to be protective was conjugated linoleic acid (CLA), a component of dairy fat that has been shown to increase risk for heart disease. A number of other studies have shown either no association between breast cancer incidence and dairy product consumption or an increased risk with dairy intake.
In Asia, where whole grains, vegetables, fruits, tofu, soymilk, and other soy products are commonly consumed and milk is not a normal part of the diet, people are generally healthier and breast cancer is much rarer than in the United States and Europe.
So, what calcium sources are most healthful? A moderate amount from a variety of plant sources seems to be best. There’s plenty of easily absorbed calcium in dark leafy greens, such as bok choy, kale, mustard greens, collard greens, and turnip greens, as well as broccoli, dried beans, figs, almonds, calcium-fortified juices, and soymilk and other non-dairy milks. Plus, these foods contain other cancer-fighting nutrients that aren’t present in dairy products.
Chan JM, Stampfer MJ, Ma J, Gann PH, Gaziano JM, Giovannucci E. Dairy products, calcium, and prostate cancer risk in the Physicians’ Health Study. Am J Clin Nutr. 2001;74:549-554.

Larsson SC, Orsini N, Wolk A. Milk, milk products and lactose intake and ovarian cancer risk: a meta-analysis of epidemiological studies. Int J Cancer. 2006;118(2):431-441.

Hjartaker A, Laake P, Lund E. Childhood and adult milk consumption and risk of premenopausal breast cancer in a cohort of 48,844 women - the Norwegian women and cancer study. Int J Cancer. 2001;93(6):888-893.

https://pcrm.org/health/cancer-resources/ask/ask-the-expert-dairy-products

cruhoortwunk

The 'men of science' went very quiet when I quoted studies that they didn't agree with.
Is the UK national cancer institute a reputable enough source?