RTPI experiences

TheBandicoot

Had a weird experience with RTPI yesterday, was getting a bus from Ongar(second stop from the terminus) to Baggot St. I had used a-b.ie and it told me to get a 39a at 14:43. Grand. So I show up to the stop about 14:35 and watch the bus count down on my phone. Then out of nowhere at 14:40, an unscheduled short 39 to Bachelor's Walk appeared, both in the app and on the street, and the 39a I wanted disappeared. I was worried that my bus had been cancelled, but a few minutes later it showed up normally.

I know the reason(RTPI displays timetabled times until just before depature, then switches to the real bus, which might not have been set up yet), it was just disconcerting from a user's experience perspective. In the end it worked out great, the 39 sucked up all the passengers heading to the Blanch centre and the city centre so we had a clear run and arrived 20 minutes earlier than what a-b.ie indicated.

GLaDOS

Was waiting on a 15a from Ringend road Sunday morning (not the usual starting point but the 10.00am bus on a Sunday starts here apparently). Was on the RTPI when we arrived, counted down, then never arrived. The stop is across form the depot so a couple of "Entering Service" buses went by and the 15a seemed to drop off just as one of them went by. Is it a case of the bus never ran, or they skipped the stop for some reason?

Very annoying in any case, got a 77a part way and arranged for a lift the rest.

In a similar vein, twice before when going Glasnevin -> Walkinstown a 9C showed up instead of a 9 as scheduled on the timetable and on the RTPI. Infuriating stuff.

LXFlyer

TheBandicoot wrote: »

Had a weird experience with RTPI yesterday, was getting a bus from Ongar(second stop from the terminus) to Baggot St. I had used a-b.ie and it told me to get a 39a at 14:43. Grand. So I show up to the stop about 14:35 and watch the bus count down on my phone. Then out of nowhere at 14:40, an unscheduled 39 to Bachelor's Walk appeared, both in the app and on the street, and the 39a I wanted disappeared. I was worried that my bus had been cancelled, but a few minutes later it showed up normally.

I know the reason(RTPI displays timetabled times until just before depature, then switches to the real bus, which might not have been set up yet), it was just disconcerting from a user's experience perspective. In the end it worked out great, the 39 sucked up all the passengers heading to the Blanch centre and the city centre so we had a clear run and arrived 20 minutes earlier than what a-b.ie indicated.

The RTPI system works off full working timetables for each individual scheduled departure. It will locate a bus using the GPS and then apply the predicted journey times from that working timetable to the buses current location.

If an extra unscheduled bus is added, it will not appear on RTPI simply because no predictive times will be in the system for it.

LXFlyer

ScienceNerd wrote: »

Was waiting on a 15a from Ringend road Sunday morning (not the usual starting point but the 10.00am bus on a Sunday starts here apparently). Was on the RTPI when we arrived, counted down, then never arrived. The stop is across form the depot so a couple of "Entering Service" buses went by and the 15a seemed to drop off just as one of them went by. Is it a case of the bus never ran, or they skipped the stop for some reason?

Very annoying in any case, got a 77a part way and arranged for a lift the rest.

In a similar vein, twice before when going Glasnevin -> Walkinstown a 9C showed up instead of a 9 as scheduled on the timetable and on the RTPI. Infuriating stuff.

Two separate issues there:

1) RTPI works off schedules until about 2 minutes prior to departure when it switches to the bus itself which needs the driver to have programmed his ticket machine for that journey. Therefore, if a bus is cancelled, then unless a controller removes it from the system, it will remain on RTPI until 2 minutes prior to departure, before vanishing.

In your case, it's possible that either the 15a did not operate for whatever reason, or, more likely, was late leaving the depot. It's unlikely that the bus driver skipped the stop to be honest.

2) The on-street RTPI seems incapable of recognising unscheduled short workings. That departure on route 9 may have been curtailed (unscheduled) due to a driver shortage - it would be likely that there was a driver change in the city. In that case the controller would modify the AVLC for this and as a result the Dublin Bus app does recognise the curtailment. For this reason I always recommend to people to use the DB app or website - it is coming directly from the DB server.

AlekSmart

lxflyer wrote: »

Two separate issues there:

1) RTPI works off schedules until about 2 minutes prior to departure when it switches to the bus itself which needs the driver to have programmed his ticket machine for that journey. Therefore, if a bus is cancelled, then unless a controller removes it from the system, it will remain on RTPI until 2 minutes prior to departure, before vanishing.

In your case, it's possible that either the 15a did not operate for whatever reason, or, more likely, was late leaving the depot. It's unlikely that the bus driver skipped the stop to be honest.

2) The on-street RTPI seems incapable of recognising unscheduled short workings. That departure on route 9 may have been curtailed (unscheduled) due to a driver shortage - it would be likely that there was a driver change in the city. In that case the controller would modify the AVLC for this and as a result the Dublin Bus app does recognise the curtailment. For this reason I always recommend to people to use the DB app or website - it is coming directly from the DB server.

Very good advice Lxflyer.

There is indeed an ...."issue" with the the RTPI displaying curtailed journeys.

It is known about,it is still being reported internally,but as yet there is no official acknowledgment of,or attention to the issue,which appears to be somewhere in the BAC/DCC RTPI Interface.

GLaDOS

lxflyer wrote: »

Two separate issues there:

1) RTPI works off schedules until about 2 minutes prior to departure when it switches to the bus itself which needs the driver to have programmed his ticket machine for that journey. Therefore, if a bus is cancelled, then unless a controller removes it from the system, it will remain on RTPI until 2 minutes prior to departure, before vanishing.

In your case, it's possible that either the 15a did not operate for whatever reason, or, more likely, was late leaving the depot. It's unlikely that the bus driver skipped the stop to be honest.

2) The on-street RTPI seems incapable of recognising unscheduled short workings. That departure on route 9 may have been curtailed (unscheduled) due to a driver shortage - it would be likely that there was a driver change in the city. In that case the controller would modify the AVLC for this and as a result the Dublin Bus app does recognise the curtailment. For this reason I always recommend to people to use the DB app or website - it is coming directly from the DB server.

Thanks for your reply, good to at least understand what's happening.

I always have an eye on the DB app until I arrive at the stop, wouldn't think to use it when I'm there (assuming it has a board there)

Mrs OBumble

On-street signs were installed back in Jan/Feb in Galway City.

They still say they are "under test" and the information they display is often vastly wrong.

Eg I was at the stop in Francis St last Wednesday. The 407 that went past five minutes after I arrived was not listed. The next two 404 and 405-Rahoons on the timetable were listed. The two 402s that were timetabled to within that timeframe weren't - including the one that I caught, which left pretty much right on time 7 mins after I got to the stop.

LXFlyer

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

On-street signs were installed back in Jan/Feb in Galway City.

They still say they are "under test" and the information they display is often vastly wrong.

Eg I was at the stop in Francis St last Wednesday. The 407 that went past five minutes after I arrived was not listed. The next two 404 and 405-Rahoons on the timetable were listed. The two 402s that were timetabled to within that timeframe weren't - including the one that I caught, which left pretty much right on time 7 mins after I got to the stop.

Are those departures listed on the pdf timetables on the NTA website?

Those are the timetables that drive the RTPI information.

I've never been at a stop with RTPI that had any relation to reality.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I've never been at a stop with RTPI that had any relation to reality.

How very helpful and informative of you. It seems to be good enough on the 41, 41c route, though the 41c city-bound seems to have a habit of disappearing for 2-3 minutes before Boroimhe.

LuckyLloyd

Deleted User wrote: »

I've never been at a stop with RTPI that had any relation to reality.

That's a lie.

GLaDOS

Just had a 16c show up instead of a 16, showed up as 16 the whole time on my app. Would have gotten the earlier bus if I'd had known

LuckyLloyd

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

That's a lie.

You've been following me then?

LXFlyer

ScienceNerd wrote: »

Just had a 16c show up instead of a 16, showed up as 16 the whole time on my app. Would have gotten the earlier bus if I'd had known

Are you using the official Dublin Bus app?

That usually will show curtailments unlike the on-street displays.

LXFlyer

Deleted User wrote: »

I've never been at a stop with RTPI that had any relation to reality.

Given I use the bus right across the city, with a very small number of exceptions I can say that I find that comment very hard to believe.

By and large the system does work very well.

Can you give specific examples of where it does not work?

stop

lxflyer wrote: »

Are you using the official Dublin Bus app?

That usually will show curtailments unlike the on-street displays.

Does the DB app get live data updates that nonofficial apps do not get?
I have seen curtailments on Next Bus Dublin.

LXFlyer

stop wrote: »

Does the DB app get live data updates that nonofficial apps do not get?
I have seen curtailments on Next Bus Dublin.

That I don't know for sure - but what I do know is that it will always show any curtailments that the controllers put on the system. The on-street displays do not.

dfx-

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

That's a lie.

You could get a bus at a stop near the terminus and the RTPI would be fairly unreliable in my experience when very close to the terminus - like ScienceNerd's 15A story, so I think it is possible, but very unlikely and not at all representative..

stop

lxflyer wrote: »

That I don't know for sure - but what I do know is that it will always show any curtailments that the controllers put on the system. The on-street displays do not.

Yeah I've seen that in action - on Blessington Road inbound, de selby (Gibbons Villas), a 65 was not on the RTPI sign, but was on next bus dublin with De Selby/Gibbons Villas as the destination (can't remember the exact name). An out of service EV approached (with people on board), I stuck my arm out but it sailed on by.

The bus was about 15 minutes late, presumably the thinking was to go oos once hitting the 77A/65B stretch of the route., not that there was a 65B due any time soon after that..

lxflyer

lxflyer wrote: »

Given I use the bus right across the city, with a very small number of exceptions I can say that I find that comment very hard to believe.

By and large the system does work very well.

Can you give specific examples of where it does not work?

One of the stops at College Green a few times. I was getting a bus to the RDS for exams and I think it was the 4 or the 7 I wanted to get. Anyway the 4 buses on the screen when I got to the stop all passed through the screen without ever passing us by. This happened 3 times and was in April/May.
The other time was on O'Connell St. heading to Santry. I can't remember which bus it was (only time I made the journey) but I had 2 options. Again, all the buses on screen when I got to the stop must have gone invisible when going by the stop.

GLaDOS

lxflyer wrote: »

Are you using the official Dublin Bus app?

That usually will show curtailments unlike the on-street displays.

Yeah I am. Guess they forgot to update the route.

LXFlyer

Deleted User wrote: »

One of the stops at College Green a few times. I was getting a bus to the RDS for exams and I think it was the 4 or the 7 I wanted to get. Anyway the 4 buses on the screen when I got to the stop all passed through the screen without ever passing us by. This happened 3 times and was in April/May.
The other time was on O'Connell St. heading to Santry. I can't remember which bus it was (only time I made the journey) but I had 2 options. Again, all the buses on screen when I got to the stop must have gone invisible when going by the stop.

While I understand your frustration, to make a general comment like the one you did based on a handful of experiences is really pushing things. You seem to have been exceptionally unlucky.

As I've posted already, there are reasons why buses can disappear:
1) there may have been a driver change - which does cause buses to "vanish" while drivers are signed out, or,
2) for whatever reason, some of the journeys may have been curtailed (the on-street displays cannot handle this), or,
3) the bus may have been cancelled (such as an outbound 7). In the latter case the RTPI will read from the schedule until 2 minutes prior to departure before switching to the bus - unless the controller removes it, it will continue to display until that point.

lxflyer

lxflyer wrote: »

While I understand your frustration, to make a general comment like the one you did based on a handful of experiences is really pushing things. You seem to have been exceptionally unlucky.

What general comment? I didn't comment on anyone else's experiences, unlike some people on this thread.

As I've posted already, there are reasons why buses can disappear:
1) there may have been a driver change - which does cause buses to "vanish" while drivers are signed out, or,
2) for whatever reason, some of the journeys may have been curtailed (the on-street displays cannot handle this), or,
3) the bus may have been cancelled (such as an outbound 7). In the latter case the RTPI will read from the schedule until 2 minutes prior to departure before switching to the bus - unless the controller removes it, it will continue to display until that point.

Thread is about experiences, not reasons for the system the end-user sees working or not working.

I actually forgot one time I used it and it was accurate, that was getting the 130 from the first stop. That would've been a fair criticism for omitting that from my first post. :pac:

LXFlyer

Deleted User wrote: »

What general comment? I didn't comment on anyone else's experiences, unlike some people on this thread.

Thread is about experiences, not reasons for the system the end-user sees working or not working.

I actually forgot one time I used it and it was accurate, that was getting the 130 from the first stop. That would've been a fair criticism for omitting that from my first post. :pac:

Well I think your initial comment would have suggested that it never worked anywhere - it tends to help to put it into context, so that it might be possible to understand why this could happen.

And that's all I was trying to explain, some will be interested, others such as yourself obviously are not. It's a discussion board! I don't see any rule saying that explanations cannot be posted!

devnull

Whilst the last two times I've used the bus haven't been great exeperiences, I've used both the DB app and the transport for Ireland App and both of them seem to show information others don't.

Two buses were cancelled in a row one day, and the Dublin Bus app listed them until the departure time from the terminus then they vanished. However the Real Time Ireland app seemed to allow for this, since when I looked at this, neither of the two buses that were cancelled showed up , but the third one, which did run, was shown as the next bus for the stop even though it was well into the future. It seemed to know they would not run.

However as LxFlyer has said, there is a drawback on the Real TIme IReland app, when shortened workings do not update on the RPTI system on there, or on the streets. This is a problem as well, since nothing more frustrating on waiting for a cross city bus, which it turns out is not going cross the city at all..

smackyB

stop wrote: »

Does the DB app get live data updates that nonofficial apps do not get?
I have seen curtailments on Next Bus Dublin.

Nope, Next Bus Dublin uses the same API endpoint as the official one. I would imagine it's the same story with the other 3rd party apps.

LXFlyer

devnull wrote: »

Whilst the last two times I've used the bus haven't been great exeperiences, I've used both the DB app and the transport for Ireland App and both of them seem to show information others don't.

Two buses were cancelled in a row one day, and the Dublin Bus app listed them until the departure time from the terminus then they vanished. However the Real Time Ireland app seemed to allow for this, since when I looked at this, neither of the two buses that were cancelled showed up , but the third one, which did run, was shown as the next bus for the stop even though it was well into the future. It seemed to know they would not run.

However as LxFlyer has said, there is a drawback on the Real TIme IReland app, when shortened workings do not update on the RPTI system on there, or on the streets. This is a problem as well, since nothing more frustrating on waiting for a cross city bus, which it turns out is not going cross the city at all..

You don't seem to be very lucky!!

I'm currently on my 8th bus of the day (from one end of the city to the other), which together with one DART and one LUAS have all appeared on RTPI, and all operated to schedule!

devnull

lxflyer wrote: »

You don't seem to be very lucky!![.quote]

My journey back home was smooth enough thankfully!

In all seriousness though the days I tended to use the bus were not average days, normally there was some event going on, or due later that day on both occasions, lack of driver was the reason for yesterday I'm told, whilst a breakdown and a lack of driver on the following service was the problem the time when two didn't turn up.

I'm currently on my 8th bus of the day (from one end of the city to the other), which together with one DART and one LUAS have all appeared on RTPI, and all operated to schedule!

I rarely use the DART or intercity trains or general Dublin Bus services, occasionally I use the Maynooth line and the LUAS, nitelink and the 747, other than that it's just intercity buses for me these days or local buses

I've found generally the Luas is spot on though and DB seems to be accurate most of the time from what I've seen.

foggy_lad

In rathmines this evening waiting on a 14 which counted down to 2 minutes on the display then it vanished off to the board and a couple of minutes later an empty out of service bus went by with all lights on inside. This was the 14 I had been waiting for.

How often does this happen?

bk

I can't remember exactly which report it was, (I think it was a NTA or DB report), but the report found that RTPI was 95% accurate, which was in line with or ahead of similar systems in other cities in Europe.

I've found the same myself, with it working well most of the time. With only the odd phantom bus, usually at or near terminus.

That isn't say that it can't be improved upon, it can, but it certainly isn't the case that it never works!

_Kaiser_

You know what I see as the real problems here...

- On street displays that don't reflect unexpected changes made by the controllers (lxflyer's post #14)
- Reliance on varying apps - some of which MAY be accurate if the controller did his part

At the end of the day, apps should NOT be an essential part of the process IMO. Not everyone has a smartphone (still!), and really, most people will be fairly familiar with their local timetable anyway. All that's needed is accurate onsite information when they get there.

So what's actually happened then is they've spent whatever amount installing electronic poles, GPS systems and a back-end system to drive it all... and it doesn't actually support a function that seems to be a regular requirement? (shorter/unscheduled duties)

Is that correct?

Mrs OBumble

lxflyer wrote: »

Are those departures listed on the pdf timetables on the NTA website?

Those are the timetables that drive the RTPI information.

I don't see any timetables on the NTA's site.

But I do see the 402-Seacrest services on the TFI journey planner, if that's what you meant, and it does show them stopping at the stop I was at.





More Galway feedback:

Last Friday, I arrived at the 405-Ballybane terminus at 5:19pm.
There were 6 other people there already, so I'm sure I hadn't missed the bus.

No RTPI display there, but the TFI app on my phone showed departures at 5:20pm, 5:40pm, 6pm (ie the timetabled ones)

Anyways, 5:20pm arrived, no bus showed up, but the service was gone from the list on the app when I refreshed it at 5:22pm.

Bus arrived at 5:30pm took a minute to load and left again immediately. I'm 100% sure it was the 5:20 running late.


Conclusion: even the app isn't showing real-time info for Galway, still.

LXFlyer

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I don't see any timetables on the NTA's site.

But I do see the 402-Seacrest services on the TFI journey planner, if that's what you meant, and it does show them stopping at the stop I was at.

More Galway feedback:

Last Friday, I arrived at the 405-Ballybane terminus at 5:19pm.
There were 6 other people there already, so I'm sure I hadn't missed the bus.

No RTPI display there, but the TFI app on my phone showed departures at 5:20pm, 5:40pm, 6pm (ie the timetabled ones)

Anyways, 5:20pm arrived, no bus showed up, but the service was gone from the list on the app when I refreshed it at 5:22pm.

Bus arrived at 5:30pm took a minute to load and left again immediately. I'm 100% sure it was the 5:20 running late.


Conclusion: even the app isn't showing real-time info for Galway, still.

Every bus route in the country has a full working timetable on www.a-b.ie

Look at the bottom right "Find a timetable" and enter the route number and work away!

LXFlyer

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

You know what I see as the real problems here...

- On street displays that don't reflect unexpected changes made by the controllers (lxflyer's post #14)
- Reliance on varying apps - some of which MAY be accurate if the controller did his part

At the end of the day, apps should NOT be an essential part of the process IMO. Not everyone has a smartphone (still!), and really, most people will be fairly familiar with their local timetable anyway. All that's needed is accurate onsite information when they get there.

So what's actually happened then is they've spent whatever amount installing electronic poles, GPS systems and a back-end system to drive it all... and it doesn't actually support a function that seems to be a regular requirement? (shorter/unscheduled duties)

Is that correct?

The on-street displays certainly cannot handle shortened workings - they will display the full service.

I suspect they cannot handle extra unscheduled workings as they rely on the stored timetable to pull the predictive times from in order to predict how long the bus is going to take.

If it's a last minute decision, that sort of service will never display, but if it were planned in advance, the scheduler should be entering a special one-off timetable onto the system and it would.

Mrs OBumble

lxflyer wrote: »

Every bus route in the country has a full working timetable on www.a-b.ie

Look at the bottom right "Find a timetable" and enter the route number and work away!

Ahh.

Ok, so the serivce I was waiting for has a timetable there - although the terminus name is a little different to what's displayed on the bus, the route number is the same.

The stop I was waiting at (Francis St - Abbey church) is listed in it - though interestinly only the one of the other side of the strees (Francis St - opposite Abbey church) is shown on the Journey Planner route map.

Obviously there's a wee glitch in there somewhere.

LXFlyer

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I don't see any timetables on the NTA's site.

But I do see the 402-Seacrest services on the TFI journey planner, if that's what you meant, and it does show them stopping at the stop I was at.

More Galway feedback:

Last Friday, I arrived at the 405-Ballybane terminus at 5:19pm.
There were 6 other people there already, so I'm sure I hadn't missed the bus.

No RTPI display there, but the TFI app on my phone showed departures at 5:20pm, 5:40pm, 6pm (ie the timetabled ones)

Anyways, 5:20pm arrived, no bus showed up, but the service was gone from the list on the app when I refreshed it at 5:22pm.

Bus arrived at 5:30pm took a minute to load and left again immediately. I'm 100% sure it was the 5:20 running late.


Conclusion: even the app isn't showing real-time info for Galway, still.

Just to go back to this and re-iterate - the system uses the full working timetable for each scheduled departure to predict how long a bus is going to take to operate.

Certainly in Dublin, and I suspect it is the same with BE, it requires the driver to have signed in on the departure in question for the bus to appear on the signs.

Hence when the bus didn't show, it used the schedule up until the departure time and then vanished. It should have reappeared once the driver signed in on the departure that left at 17:30 as the 17:20 service.

However, if that 17:30 service were an unscheduled extra, then the service won't appear as there is no schedule to pull the predictive times for it from.

stop

Part of my commute involves me catching an inbound bus near an out of city terminus. I've noticed a few journeys absent from the RTPI system of late, removed from the system as they were not running for some reason. This is extremely useful (once I learned to trust it) as it allows me to make other arrangements.

LXFlyer

stop wrote: »

Part of my commute involves me catching an inbound bus near an out of city terminus. I've noticed a few journeys absent from the RTPI system of late, removed from the system as they were not running for some reason. This is extremely useful (once I learned to trust it) as it allows me to make other arrangements.

To be fair, occasionally the on-bus GPS equipment can be defective, so I wouldn't entirely rely on it - recently I caught a bus that was operating "under the radar" so to speak, as the equipment wasn't working.

dazberry

lxflyer wrote: »

To be fair, occasionally the on-bus GPS equipment can be defective, so I wouldn't entirely rely on it - recently I caught a bus that was operating "under the radar" so to speak, as the equipment wasn't working.

I find the 68A to be one such culprit. It has disappeared off the display and not turned up, disappeared off the display and turned up, disappeared off the display and reappeared on the display with a couple of minutes prior to turning up, and naturally sometimes it works correctly. One thing for sure, keeps me on my toes...

D.