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“One in four emergency department attendances are alcohol-related,”- what criteria...

  • 23-09-2013 04:13AM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,798 ✭✭✭✭


    ...is used to make these statements?

    As part of the now annual attack on Arthur's Day, a doctor has claimed that one in four A&E attendances is "alcohol related".

    I'm not necessarily saying I don't believe the statistic, but I'm interested in how it's judged. Does it involve people who simply drink too much that they get sick or pass out and need to go to hospital as a result?

    Or does it include, as these things often do, entirely indirect correlations? Someone was involved in a fight and broke their nose, they had been drinking, ergo it's "alcohol related"? Girl falls down the stairs in a club and had had a couple of drinks? Lad has a pint and stubs his toe on his way to bed that night?

    I ask only because I've been in A&E on a weekend night myself (not alcohol related in my case at all) and I didn't meet anyone with alcohol poisoning. I did meet two girls who had tripped over a railing in a Dublin nightclub and possibly broken their ankle, and one guy who had been punched by another guy who may or may not have been drunk (or indeed, under the influence of some other substance), and I can't help wondering if such vague correlations to alcohol are included in statistics like "1 in 4". I'm generally suspicious of such statistics when they come from people who actually have a dog in whatever fight the statistic is brought up in TBH, and can think of many examples of utterly bullsh!t statistics over the last number of years, which if you look into the criteria, are incredibly shaky, and presented as fact in the media.
    I'm not trying to sound overly cynical, but I have good reason to question most statistics I see in the newspapers these days.

    Anyone know how this one works?


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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,407 ✭✭✭lkionm


    It's 4 o clock in the morning and I'm halfway from to limerick from Dublin and have a half pack of smokes.

    No way am I reading that.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,407 ✭✭✭lkionm


    Probably from people on nights out getting in fights and falling and that kinda stuff I would guess? I only read the first line


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 998 ✭✭✭dharma200


    How it works is that all visits to a and e are logged...

    The logs are used to allow us to know the statistics.

    Your one visit to a and e would not be indicative to an entire year of visits to a and e.

    It is highly unlikely these stats have been made up, it would serve no purpose to do so.

    maybe sit in a and e on any given weekend if you wish to gain a more comprehensive insight.

    Arthur's day is such a cringeworthy con, it deserves every bit of bad publicity and disparaging it gets.


  • Posts: 53,068 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I don't think the OP is suggesting they are made up, but it's similar to the road safety add which states that X% of people seriously injured or killed in an RTA had alcohol in their systems - what it doesn't do is clarify whether alcohol was the cause, for example those statistics include passengers and their blood alcohol level has nothing to do with the cause of the crash etc.

    So I understand the question that is being asked, they may be alcohol 'related' but was alcohol the cause?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Ideally they should be figures of where the doctor believes that alcohol was highly influential factor in the patient's malaise. The reality is we shouldn't need exaggerated statistics to state the obvious : Ireland has an intensive drinking culture.If you sampled people not in hospital odds are there'd be an alcohol influence in something they did recently. The question of course is "How significant was this influence and was its overall impact negative or positive?". So I really hope these stats aren't exaggerated because that's just pointless and silly.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,407 ✭✭✭lkionm


    I don't think the OP is suggesting they are made up, but it's similar to the road safety add which states that X% of people seriously injured or killed in an RTA had alcohol in their systems - what it doesn't do is clarify whether alcohol was the cause, for example those statistics include passengers and their blood alcohol level has nothing to do with the cause of the crash etc.

    So I understand the question that is being asked, they may be alcohol 'related' but was alcohol the cause?

    Yeah id say they are 'related'. I have never been to ae but id say they are pretty rough looking on the weekend with stupid injuries that wouldn't have happen if they stayed in for a wankathon.

    My friend slipped in a grate by a gate before and sliced open her leg coming home from a night out and had to get stitches that night. So that is alcohol 'related'.

    I have been out in limerick for the past 6 years and I haven't seen much apart from the few fights in Burger King and the natives prowling cruises street looking for fags and a fight.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,534 ✭✭✭gctest50


    dharma200 wrote: »
    How it works is that all visits to a and e are logged...

    The logs are used to allow us to know the statistics.

    Your one visit to a and e would not be indicative to an entire year of visits to a and e.

    And if the logs are filled in by the sometimes clueless, what good are the stats ?

    eg, just two :

    Had a bottle of Coke - collapsed a few minutes later
    > a&e
    Asked Florence "could I have diabetes? pls check blood"
    Did the test - "ah its hi because you had sugary drink - you're fine, off you go "

    Week+ later in there again, little bit off colour ( bm > 90 )
    So i said to this weeks star HCP "this is diabetes"
    "you're too thin to have diabetes - must be something else"

    Or a few years before, saw a nurse killing a patient - that extra "R" - rate.

    Would love to see the logs for those? bit tired - bit sleepy - how many mils in an ounce again?

    That's what the excess hours and lack of sleep does to people


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,772 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Does it involve people who simply drink too much that they get sick or pass out and need to go to hospital as a result?

    Or does it include, as these things often do, entirely indirect correlations? Someone was involved in a fight and broke their nose, they had been drinking, ergo it's "alcohol related"? Girl falls down the stairs in a club and had had a couple of drinks? Lad has a pint and stubs his toe on his way to bed that night?

    I ask only because I've been in A&E on a weekend night myself (not alcohol related in my case at all) and I didn't meet anyone with alcohol poisoning. I did meet two girls who had tripped over a railing in a Dublin nightclub and possibly broken their ankle, and one guy who had been punched by another guy who may or may not have been drunk (or indeed, under the influence of some other substance),
    Are you honestly saying that injuries, violence, poisonings, general illness, unplanned pregnancies have nothing to do with alcohol?

    I think you're just being an apologist for drinking.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,917 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    Victor wrote: »
    Are you honestly saying that injuries, violence, poisonings, general illness, unplanned pregnancies have nothing to do with alcohol?

    I think you're just being an apologist for drinking.

    That's just a weak strawman argument.

    Nobody is denying that alcohol can be an influence of all those things.

    The question is what exactly 'alcohol-related' means, and whether or not it is limited to incidents in which alcohol was a contributing factor (drunk driver crashes into a wall) or whether it includes incidents where alcohol had been consumed but was not a factor in the incident (taxi driver hits and injures a man walking home after 2 pints)?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 278 ✭✭tiredcity


    This gives a pretty good rundown of your average night in A&E over a weekend: http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/a-hard-day-s-night-12-hours-in-a-dublin-a-e-1.1534744


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭Chattastrophe!


    gctest50 wrote: »
    eg, just two :

    Had a bottle of Coke - collapsed a few minutes later
    > a&e
    Asked Florence "could I have diabetes? pls check blood"
    Did the test - "ah its hi because you had sugary drink - you're fine, off you go "

    Week+ later in there again, little bit off colour ( bm > 90 )
    So i said to this weeks star HCP "this is diabetes"
    "you're too thin to have diabetes - must be something else"

    Would you not have just gone to your GP? Especially the second time, when you were feeling a 'little bit off colour'?

    Your GP would be in a far better position than the A&E staff to diagnose and establish a treatment plan for diabetes, if that's what it is.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,359 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    Anybody who works in A+E would probably tell you how their workload hughly increases every weekend and the carnage "Arthur's Day"produces.
    Saw a British documentary on the subject recently and one of the nurses commented that the night shifts had become really busy both during the week and at weekends since the availability of cheap booze.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,408 ✭✭✭bbam


    In fairness OP if you ever spent Amy time in A&E late in a Friday or Saturday night you wouldn't wonder about these numbers. From the twice I ha to be there in weekend nights I'd have said it was nearer 75% of attendees were drunks. Fights, falls, accidents and pukers. Very frustrating for genuine people seeing these idiots clogging up the system.
    As for the Arthur's Day ****e. Only a bunch of idiot drunks fall for a scam like a drinks company inventing their own celebration day - perfect for the Irish so.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 737 ✭✭✭Jezek


    The OP is right in being skeptical. On one hand, everyone wants to see a better drinking culture in Ireland -on the other, statistics like these can be used tomorrow to limit off-licence times, increase booze taxes etc,etc. So it would be worth knowing how these numbers come about.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,359 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    If Diageo had an ounce of social conscience they would cancel "Arthurs Day"and apologize for the trouble they've caused.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,730 ✭✭✭Potatoeman


    Would you not have just gone to your GP? Especially the second time, when you were feeling a 'little bit off colour'?

    Your GP would be in a far better position than the A&E staff to diagnose and establish a treatment plan for diabetes, if that's what it is.

    Far too many people clogging up a&e that should not be there. That said I had a note from my GP for admittance but still ended up waiting in a&e for 12 hrs. It turned out the person that was in the bed I eventually got into refused to leave. They should have been in an out patient facility.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,730 ✭✭✭Potatoeman


    kneemos wrote: »
    If Diageo had an ounce of social conscience they would cancel "Arthurs Day"and apologize for the trouble they've caused.

    If they encouraged pubs to give out food people would not get so messy. Its no excuse for the individual though.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,793 ✭✭✭tritium


    Most statistics like this are pulled out of someone's rear end or are taken selectively from whichever study comes closest to validating someone's viewpoint. One in four seems to be a particularly prevalent ratio to throw about- I guess it has the lovely property of being high but not unbelievably high.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,380 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    kneemos wrote: »
    If Diageo had an ounce of social conscience they would cancel "Arthurs Day"and apologize for the trouble they've caused.

    Why should they apologise? They don't tell people to drink till they can't function in any way.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 228 ✭✭PingO_O


    Why should they apologise? They don't tell people to drink till they can't function in any way.

    Yep, and I'm not a fan of the whole Arthur's day gimmick either, I don't like the way everyone feels like they have to do something for it now, that's been my experience anyway.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,889 ✭✭✭✭For Forks Sake


    Potatoeman wrote: »
    If they encouraged pubs to give out food people would not get so messy. Its no excuse for the individual though.

    Or if the individual didn't get tanked up on cheap vodka rather than eating before they left the house, then maybe they wouldn't get so messy in the pub.....see where I'm going with this?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,359 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    Why should they apologise? They don't tell people to drink till they can't function in any way.

    It'sa cynical marketing campaign and they know people are falling for it.
    If your happy with a drinks product being promoted as a Paddy's Day style holiday then there's no problem .


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,324 ✭✭✭JustAThought


    Ive been to A& E once in my life & I was brought in on a stretcher . I just am amazed every time people throw into the conversation that they were there for this or that trivial thing. The mind boggles . When was a bleeding finger an emergency etc. if its not falling off, hanging off etc it's not an emergency! & don't go!!

    Re the drink they could do the same with dunnes stores clothes , or blue jeans , or cigarettes, etc. I don't doubt that loses of pissheads end up in A&E but most likely cause is the nightclubs/bars they're in shunting them Off there to get them off their premises & transported away quickly . Problem resolved - for them.

    Those VhI clinics - do they open late does anyone know or is it just 9-5 like haLf the rest of Ireland's "services"...


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,380 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    kneemos wrote: »
    It'sa cynical marketing campaign and they know people are falling for it.
    If your happy with a drinks product being promoted as a Paddy's Day style holiday then there's no problem .

    A lot of people are looking far too much into it I recon.


  • Posts: 24,774 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Potatoeman wrote: »
    If they encouraged pubs to give out food people would not get so messy. Its no excuse for the individual though.

    Eating is cheating.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    tritium wrote: »
    Most statistics like this are pulled out of someone's rear end or are taken selectively from whichever study comes closest to validating someone's viewpoint. One in four seems to be a particularly prevalent ratio to throw about- I guess it has the lovely property of being high but not unbelievably high.

    One in four is common because lots of conditions and ailments are that common. We as humans, tend to be rubbish at estimating actual statistics and probabilities because they're not intuitive. The classic example probability wise is the birthday problem, in a group of 38 people it's almost 100% likely that two people will share the same birthday. Now you can cheat this by deliberating biasing your sample to have 38 people all born on different days. However, intuitively you probably think such cheating isn't necessary. It is! In any soccer match, two players from either squad will share the same birthday.

    Statistics are similar. The reason why one in four is a particularly prevalent ratio is because for most things people have familiarity with 20-25% of any sample will demonstrate those characteristics. In other words, if you're familiar with something it's because lots of people already have exposed you to it. Even if quantitatively it doesn't feel like it to you. Probably best someone with more familiarity of statistics and human intuitions elaborates on this.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,534 ✭✭✭gctest50


    Would you not have just gone to your GP? Especially the second time, when you were feeling a 'little bit off colour'?

    Your GP would be in a far better position than the A&E staff to diagnose and establish a treatment plan for diabetes, if that's what it is.


    The HCP did a simple, almost instant test with one of the basic tools of the trade and couldn't interpret it.

    DKA is time for hospital ~ http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/diseases/facts/diabeticacidosis.htm


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,730 ✭✭✭Potatoeman


    Or if the individual didn't get tanked up on cheap vodka rather than eating before they left the house, then maybe they wouldn't get so messy in the pub.....see where I'm going with this?

    Which is why it was followed by the second line about responsibility. Its an easy way to prevent people getting too drunk. Some pubs do it already.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,730 ✭✭✭Potatoeman


    gctest50 wrote: »
    The HCP did a simple, almost instant test with one of the basic tools of the trade and couldn't interpret it.

    DKA is time for hospital ~ http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/diseases/facts/diabeticacidosis.htm

    Still wondering why you didnt go to the GP for this.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Why should they apologise? They don't tell people to drink till they can't function in any way.

    They do however encourage people to go to their local pub where, surprise surprise, the motus operandi is to drink. By this I don't mean drinking until you can't function I just mean drinking a bit. The average person in Ireland drinks far too much alcohol and puts themselves in an unnecessary higher risk category for various alcohol associated problems. This could be anything from becoming an alcoholic to liver disease. (It's far worse for people who drink and smoke! Two things which are very common on night outs in the pub.) The person themselves may not end up in A&E that very day. Over the long term, however, they become more and more likely to end up in hospital with alcohol related issues.


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