2014 F1 Engines

v10

Small feature shown today on the F1 2014 1.6 Litre V6 Hybrid Engines :eek:

I know it means my username is well old but what are your thoughts on these ?



VIDEO HERE

oceanman

the problem with f1 is that the rule makers cant stop interfering, the race car designers and engineers should be just allowed to get on with things without constant rule changes! it has destroyed the sport.

ScumLord

oceanman wrote: »

the problem with f1 is that the rule makers cant stop interfering, the race car designers and engineers should be just allowed to get on with things without constant rule changes! it has destroyed the sport.

10 or so years ago we were saying the opposite. When you let engineers do what they like the guys that can afford it can take off into the distance. Without all the rule changes we'd be watching F1 cars driving themselves around the track at this stage.

Give an engineering team like you have in formula 1 enough time and money and they can perfect anything. Having constant rule changes actually makes it more challenging for the engineers as they constantly have to innovate to stay competitive.

I think F1 teams and drivers are just too good at what they do to allow them to settle, you have to keep changing the playing field or it's just too easy for them.

guyfo

oceanman wrote: »

the problem with f1 is that the rule makers cant stop interfering, the race car designers and engineers should be just allowed to get on with things without constant rule changes! it has destroyed the sport.

How has it destroyed the sport?!? Its been the nature of the sport from the very beginning.

Have a look at the old rules and you will actually see that they are always being tweaked and have almost always had 2 big shake ups every decade since the 50's

Look at the last rule change when they banned a lot of the aero, increased the front wing size and decreased the rear etc. Before the change it was basically ferrari vs renault vs mclaren for the wins. Then the running order changed completely but now after a few years the usual suspects are all there again (plus the new big spenders redbull)

When the rules are changed its the most innovative that win rather than who has the biggest wallet. The way it should be.

Myrddin

guyfo wrote: »

Before the change it was basically ferrari vs renault vs mclaren for the wins

Sounds like progress to me Give me that any day over Vettel versus Reliability to determine the wins

ScumLord

I think Ross Brawn put it best in that video, "the engines are no longer relevant". Consumer cars are pulling so much power out of little engines they're probably as advanced as anything on the race tracks.

guyfo

EnterNow wrote: »

Sounds like progress to me Give me that any day over Vettel versus Reliability to determine the wins

???

New engines = probably unreliable

V8 engines = frozen for the past few years with the only modifications allowed for reliability = bulletproof

So new rules should be right up your street!

Also how is Schumacher dominating any different to Seb?

oceanman

the problem is that all the rule changes have slowed the cars down! if f1 had have being allowed to progress over the last 20 years we would be probably be looking at straight line speeds of nearly 300mph. instead anytime they get near the 200mph mark someone says ....oh we have to slow them down, its getting too fast!!they are supposed to be racing cars for crying out loud..

Myrddin

guyfo wrote: »

???

I was joking, it was said the race wins were always going to Renault, McLaren or Ferrari....whereas today they go to Vettel unless he breaks down.

New engines = probably unreliable

V8 engines = frozen for the past few years with the only modifications allowed for reliability = bulletproof

So new rules should be right up your street!

Indeed, Sundays race was amongst the worse I think I've ever watched {since 2008 anyway}.

guyfo

oceanman wrote: »

the problem is that all the rule changes have slowed the cars down! if f1 had have being allowed to progress over the last 20 years we would be probably be looking at straight line speeds of nearly 300mph.

Good luck getting a human to drive something like that.

Adrian Newey designed a concept like that for Gran Turismo 5, Red bulls engineers worked out that a driver could only last a few laps before passing out because of the g-forces.

The cars are as fast as the drivers can cope with, if the cars get to fast they become to hard to control and then dangerous for both driver and spectator.

oceanman

guyfo wrote: »

Good luck getting a human to drive something like that.

Adrian Newey designed a concept like that for Gran Turismo 5, Red bulls engineers worked out that a driver could only last a few laps before passing out because of the g-forces.

The cars are as fast as the drivers can cope with, if the cars get to fast they become to hard to control and then dangerous for both driver and spectator.

humans have driven faster than that. but I take your point.

podmu80

racing at 300mph would be a bit much. wasn't the fastest speed during a race about 230mph? think it was coulthard at the old hockenhiem layout with the v10. Monza is the best track for a comparison, wonder what speed the will hit there next year. I read the top speeds could actually be higher next year than the current v8's, don't know if that's accurate, but its rare an f1 car hits top speed anyway, only a few tracks where its possible.

ScumLord

oceanman wrote: »

the problem is that all the rule changes have slowed the cars down! if f1 had have being allowed to progress over the last 20 years we would be probably be looking at straight line speeds of nearly 300mph. instead anytime they get near the 200mph mark someone says ....oh we have to slow them down, its getting too fast!!they are supposed to be racing cars for crying out loud..

It's a safety issue, BBC did a good documentary about the killer years of F1, I think it's somewhere on youtube. It's just too unsafe to go at those speeds and completely unnecessary for racing. The drivers wouldn't risk their lives driving cars like that.

Go Karts are highly competitive and only do around 70kph on average, the most important thing in any motorsport is that the cars can compete with each other, so you need regulations to keep them all in touch with each other, otherwise it's just the watch fast cars go around in circles event .

Cookie_Monster

Oh don't worry the new ones will be just as reliable, they have to cover 4,00km or something and you'll have even less per season than current.
There won't be many car failures next year I imagine

ScumLord

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Oh don't worry the new ones will be just as reliable, they have to cover 4,00km or something and you'll have even less per season than current.
There won't be many car failures next year I imagine

I don't know about that, many manufacturers, I'd say reno and merc especially have experience with making small economical turbo engines but I've heard that the engines have terrible reliability and even mercs have been breaking down. Getting the engine to run on less fuel seems to cause problems.

This could be a great move for everyone, it could actually see F1 start to make advances that can filter down to consumer cars again.

It could be a case the big guys with experience in the consumer market will have an advantage over the likes of ferrari who don't put as much effort into being economical. It's hard to know what will happen, they need to change the chassis to accommodate the new engine and gearbox so there are a lot of changes all over the car, it's not as straightforward as just getting a good engine as Red bull show time and time again.

Frank Bullitt

The new engines are incredibly complex as well, and under the rules I believe, if the ERU breaks, the whole unit must be removed, and thats a penalty.

So while we might not see many break downs, I think we will see lots of grid penalties after qualy.

The electronics and electricals in the whole unit could be an issue next season.

Bugatti

Hopefully with the new engines we'll see a lot more differences between the Merc, Ferrari, Renualt units. For the last few years I've felt the engine really have drifted into the background. All the engines have become so similar that it nearly feels like (to me anyways!) F1 is currently just using one standard engine!

ScumLord

LIGHTNING wrote: »

But do you want to see a brilliant driver stuck in mid-field because he car has an engine that is down on power? That`s no fun at all really just look at what the red bull is doing to the rest of the grid. Imagine if Vettel has another 50hp on the rest of the grid!

That's the sport though, it's not just a motor racing sport, it's engineering as a sport too.

guyfo

LIGHTNING wrote: »

But do you want to see a brilliant driver stuck in mid-field because he car has an engine that is down on power? That`s no fun at all really just look at what the red bull is doing to the rest of the grid. Imagine if Vettel has another 50hp on the rest of the grid!

That's been the nature of the sport since the beginning, the last few years with the engine freeze has been the exception, f1 has always had cars better than others. Even in the glory days.

Plenty of single make championships for you to watch if you dont like f1 rules.

ScumLord

guyfo wrote: »

Plenty of single make championships for you to watch if you dont like f1 rules.

It's a pity they aren't more popular, in many ways they're more fun to watch, especially amateur stuff.

I think once you get to high stakes professional sports, the people taking part kind of nullify each other. I've noticed it with MMA too, it's not so much down to whos the best fighter, quite often they're both excellent. It more often than not comes down to who makes the first mistake, you have to be perfect and any slip gives it to the next most perfect guy. That's what's so great about watching amateurs, they make mistakes and get themselves in silly positions which leads to more excitement.

That's why Vettel excels, he doesn't make mistakes.

SilverScreen

podmu80 wrote: »

racing at 300mph would be a bit much. wasn't the fastest speed during a race about 230mph? think it was coulthard at the old hockenhiem layout with the v10. Monza is the best track for a comparison, wonder what speed the will hit there next year. I read the top speeds could actually be higher next year than the current v8's, don't know if that's accurate, but its rare an f1 car hits top speed anyway, only a few tracks where its possible.

The fastest speed set by an F1 car during a race weekend was Coulthard at Monza in 1999 with 224.8mph.

The fastest speed set by an F1 car ever was 246.9mph set by Alan van der Merwe in a BAR Honda at Bonneville salt flats in 2005.

LIGHTNING

LIGHTNING wrote: »

To be honest I race in classes where its supposed to be level and it rarely is. The people that throw money at the cars have better engines/gearboxes. All I know is money ruins all sports :pac:

Look at mister big-shot with his fancy wrench :pac:


The way I see it, if Webber is actually as much slower than Vettel as it appears then he should never have been in F1. He's not that bad. If Red Bull can go 2 seconds a lap faster than the rest at the start of a race then both drivers lose any props they'd be getting. In Belgium the Red Bull sounded completely different to everything else through the bends. I don't know what they're doing, it's probably not illegal, but they're doing something and it works best for Vettel.

I'm not a Ferrari fan but Christ if Renault do what one would expect next season then get ready to get bored. Funniest thing for me is that McLaren are sticking with Mercedes next year. Not stupid til you remember than the engine is important structurally. Then for 2015 they're going to Honda. Jenson must have had no other offers.

podmu80

SilverScreen wrote: »

The fastest speed set by an F1 car during a race weekend was Coulthard at Monza in 1999 with 224.8mph.

The fastest speed set by an F1 car ever was 246.9mph set by Alan van der Merwe in a BAR Honda at Bonneville salt flats in 2005.

I looked it up and read that it was Montoya at Monza in 2005 at 231.5mph but I've seen a few different figures for that record quoted, Pizzonia in '04 is another. Seriously impressive. Whatever it is, won't be surpassed at time soon!

and Alan van der merwe took the BAR to almost 257.88mph at Mojave airport in California I think:)

Cool_CM

guyfo wrote: »

Plenty of single make championships for you to watch if you dont like f1 rules.

Speaking of that, anybody see the 2008 A1 GP Team Ireland up for sale on carzone for €49,900?



http://www.carzone.ie/search/Lola/A1GP/::::/6813390628886260/advert?channel=CARS&featuredListingClickThru=true

Robbo

Cool_CM wrote: »

Speaking of that, anybody see the 2008 A1 GP Team Ireland up for sale on carzone for €49,900?



http://www.carzone.ie/search/Lola/A1GP/::::/6813390628886260/advert?channel=CARS&featuredListingClickThru=true

Not many of those sponsors escaped receivers and liquidators since A1 went belly up.

Daniel S

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Imagine if Vettel has another 50hp on the rest of the grid!

But imagine if he had 50hp less!

ZiabR

I think the sport needed an engine change. They will be more powerful next year than they are this year. F1 has to be at the front of ground breaking tech, its how it always has been. These engines will bring a certain amount of uncertainty next year as teams struggle for reliability, which is needed, its a 1 horse race at the moment. Sky's TV viewers have dropped a serious amount since the middle of the season as people got bored with Vettel and Red Bull every race winning. The FIA makes changes because they have to, for the sake of the sport, without changes next year, Red Bull and Vettel would be a cert for another double championship. They are trying to avoid another Ferrari and Shum era.

My only concern about next year and it is a major concern, is the cost of implementing these new engines. With new engines comes new gearboxes and drive-trains.

All the teams have said that the costs for next year will be double this year. We have teams like Marussia, Williams, Catherm, Lotus, and Sauber all struggling for money and we really need to keep the grid with at least 20 cars. F1 needs to get control on the costs of the sport otherwise it will be lost.

Torqay

logik wrote: »

These engines will bring a certain amount of uncertainty next year as teams struggle for reliability, which is needed, its a 1 horse race at the moment. Sky's TV viewers have dropped a serious amount since the middle of the season as people got bored with Vettel and Red Bull every race winning. Red Bull and Vettel would be a cert for another double championship. They are trying to avoid another Ferrari and Shum era.

It only became a "1 horse race" since Hockenheim. Last year was anything but a "1 horse race" and neither was the 2010 season.Vettel has won four consecutive championships alright (assuming he'll scrape those 10 points in the four remaining races) but two of them were anything but a "cert".

ScumLord

logik wrote: »

All the teams have said that the costs for next year will be double this year. We have teams like Marussia, Williams, Catherm, Lotus, and Sauber all struggling for money and we really need to keep the grid with at least 20 cars. F1 needs to get control on the costs of the sport otherwise it will be lost.

Well to be fair they are building a completely new type of car. The new engine means a new gearbox and those two changes would mean pretty much everything from the driver back has to change with it.

The initial costs for next year are obviously going to be high but they don't say what the runnings costs are like after that. Maybe making the smaller engine will be more economical in the long run?

ScumLord

ScumLord wrote: »

Well to be fair they are building a completely new type of car. The new engine means a new gearbox and those two changes would mean pretty much everything from the driver back has to change with it.

The initial costs for next year are obviously going to be high but they don't say what the runnings costs are like after that. Maybe making the smaller engine will be more economical in the long run?

Over the very, very long run it's possible usually, but they're moving towards more complexity which probably won't lead to cost reductions.

Cookie_Monster

but all the componants have to last longer which means less of them and lower costs...
probably balances out roughly

Rascasse

This months Racecar Engineering has a feature on the ways the FIA are trying to control costs with the new engines (pages 62-64). It's hard to explain without the tables but think of it like a fantasy F1 competition with the following rules;

The various parts of the engine have been given a 'cost' of between 1 and 3 points each.

Each year that this engine formula is used (2014 to 2020) each engine supplier will have an annual budget of points to 'spend' modifying whatever parts they like.

The total value of all the parts is 66

The 'budget' for modifying the engine reduces each year:
2015|2016|2017|2018|2019 & 2020
32|25|20|15|3

As years pass certain parts become frozen and are no longer available to be modified. For example in 2019 and 2020 the only parts that can be modified are the engine and ERS wiring looms and parts of the the turbo from the exhast flanges to the turbine inlet. The number of parts that can be modified each year are;
2015|2016|2017|2018|2019 & 2020
61|51|51|43|3

All a bit complicated but it is designed to reduce development costs and prevent an all out arms race.

Torqay

The much bigger challenge for the designer will be the higher minimum weight of the cars. I don't think we will see much change though, not in performance and laptimes anyway. The biggest reliability issue will be the new KERS as it will have to pruduce much more energy to compensate for the lack of engine power. Until now, drivers still had a fighting chance to salvage something from the race when KERS failed, next year, they can just park the car. Going back to deciding championships by "technical failures" again is utterly stupid IMHO.

Cookie_Monster

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

but all the componants have to last longer which means less of them and lower costs...
probably balances out roughly

The actual manufacturing costs of the engines is a fairly small proportion of the cost of an engine. Well, until now, with how complex the new ones will be it remains to be seen.

Torqay wrote: »

The much bigger challenge for the designer will be the higher minimum weight of the cars. I don't think we will see much change though, not in performance and laptimes anyway. The biggest reliability issue will be the new KERS as it will have to pruduce much more energy to compensate for the lack of engine power. Until now, drivers still had a fighting chance to salvage something from the race when KERS failed, next year, they can just park the car. Going back to deciding championships by "technical failures" again is utterly stupid IMHO.

The higher minimum weight will help the engineers no? And if they still have to have a specific weight distribution then it really simplifies things.
Well it's up to the teams and who they buy from to not put duff components into the cars isn't it?

ZiabR

ScumLord wrote: »

Well to be fair they are building a completely new type of car. The new engine means a new gearbox and those two changes would mean pretty much everything from the driver back has to change with it.

The initial costs for next year are obviously going to be high but they don't say what the runnings costs are like after that. Maybe making the smaller engine will be more economical in the long run?

But thats the point, when you have the likes of Horner, Brawn, Whitmarsh and Domenicali openly admitting that they should have stood their ground when pressed about new engines, you know there is something wrong.

Yes, in the long run they will most likely be cheaper to run etc, it is the immediate impact I am more worried about. We are not talking about a few million here, we are talking about tens of millions.

For example, Kimi and Hulk had their wages held back due to money issues this year, and this is the year when we have only had 2 engines failures all year... If times are hard this year, just you wait until next year. Not to mention the pre season testing that will cost millions.

Before the Russian sponsor came to Sauber's rescue this year, they looked a REAL doubt for next year and if someone like Sauber is having issues, then what about the Marussia and Catheram's? The whole idea is trying to create a competitive playing field for all teams and not a spilt championship between 5 teams at the front and 5 teams at the back. What is the point in that?

At least with with the current cars, teams are well settled on what they can expect. McLaren and Williams made a balls of their cars this year with McLaren going for a pull rod front suspension setup and Williams focusing on Exhausts Gases. These could be easily fixed for next year had the rules stayed somewhat the same but now the teams will have to pump millions into the unknown in an attempt to build a competitive car, all while trying to keep the team going with money.

Sponsors only care about money, they are a business after all. We have Vodafone leaving the sport next year and sponsors are harder and harder to attract, the last this the sport needs is a complete change in the rules, in the middle of a global meltdown when money is hard to come by.

Look at the effect the PAID driver scheme is having on the sport, SUB par drivers coming into the sport just because they have money. That is not how the sport should be run. Max Chilton is not an F1 driver, he should be not in the sport, look at Kobyashi with no drive, when he brings skill and excitement to the track. Its a real shame.

A spending cap NEEDS to be brought to the sport otherwise we are going to have a few more HRT's in the coming years, leaving the sport.

Yes, i think the engines needed to be changed in F1 but maybe this is not the time to do it.

Torqay

logik wrote: »

it is the immediate impact I am more worried about. We are not talking about a few million here, we are talking about tens of millions.

Indeed...

The current £7 million cap on cost of engine supply ends this year and Renault are the most expensive supplier for 2014 at a quoted £18 million per team.

Of course, the most sucessful engine manufacturer in recent times can ask pretty much any price they want without such a cap. But for a small team like Caterham, that is one third of their budget already gone. Williams signed up with Mercedes purely for financial reasons.

In contrast, McLaren will get the Honda engine for "free" (in return for branding opprtunities).

ZiabR

Torqay wrote: »

Indeed...

Of course, the most sucessful engine manufacturer in recent times can ask pretty much any price they want without such a cap. But for a small team like Caterham, that is one third of their budget already gone. Williams signed up with Mercedes purely for financial reasons.

In contrast, McLaren will get the Honda engine for "free" (in return for branding opprtunities).

Exactly, the budgets of the smaller teams are so low that when they have paid for their engines, gearboxes, staff wages and travel, logistics etc, they have little to nothing left for development throughout a season and with 22 races on the calendar next year, its only going to get harder.

I was at Spa this year and it was clear just how hard it is for the smaller teams to compete. Fans were even saying, why do they bother racing in the first place, they have no chance...

Seems wrong to me.

PopePalpatine

Torqay wrote: »

The biggest reliability issue will be the new KERS as it will have to pruduce much more energy to compensate for the lack of engine power. Until now, drivers still had a fighting chance to salvage something from the race when KERS failed, next year, they can just park the car. Going back to deciding championships by "technical failures" again is utterly stupid IMHO.

No wonder Webber's leaving. :pac:

shamwari

Speaking of these new motors, has anyone heard of the new Ferrari V6 breaking ground yet? There were quite a few rumours recently that their new offering was down on power and not meeting the expected fuel consumption levels...

Jordan 199

shamwari wrote: »

Speaking of these new motors, has anyone heard of the new Ferrari V6 breaking ground yet? There were quite a few rumours recently that their new offering was down on power and not meeting the expected fuel consumption levels...

Nope. Didn't see any images or hear any sound clips of their new V6 Turbo motor yet.

ZiabR

Ferrari need to get the engine right. For the past two years, correct me if I am wrong but they have not had one engine fail and their gearbox rarely gives them problems. Amazing reliability.

They are providing engines in 2014 to Marussia and Sauber as Toro Rosso move away from Ferrari for the first time in years. They dont just have their cars to run but they are essentially running 6 cars next year so there will be pressure there.

After hearing the new V6 engines running, I still have mixed feelings on their sound. This year in Spa when the cars went up through Eau Rouge, the hair on my neck was standing. Fingers crossed that the new V6 engines still give you that sense of speed.

Torqay

logik wrote: »

Ferrari need to get the engine right.

Well, that goes for all of them, as the punishments for unreliability are severe: drivers who use a sixth engine will start the race from pit lane, In the event that individual elements of the engine unit (including the turbocharger, ERS unit or KERS battery) are replaced, drivers will incur a ten-place grid penalty.

logik wrote: »

They dont just have their cars to run but they are essentially running 6 cars next year so there will be pressure there.

Same as this year. Only Mercedes supply four teams with engines next season instead of three (although Lotus have yet to confirm their engine, I doubt they'll leave Renault).

ZiabR

Torqay wrote: »

Well, that goes for all of them, as the punishments for unreliability are severe: drivers who use a sixth engine will start the race from pit lane, In the event that individual elements of the engine unit (including the turbocharger, ERS unit or KERS battery) are replaced, drivers will incur a ten-place grid penalty.



Same as this year. Only Mercedes supply four teams with engines next season instead of three (although Lotus have yet to confirm their engine, I doubt they'll leave Renault).

Sorry, should have been clearer, I know Ferrari are running the same number of engines next year as they are this year but what I was getting at was they are going into the unknown next year with a new unit so it makes it even more important that they get it right. If they start the season on the back foot, it would be detrimental for 3 teams not 1.

Torqay

Mercedes could be interesting. With 100 bhp more (if rumours are to believed), the teams probably don't mind the odd pit lane start (preferably in a safety car-prone race, say Singapore).

ZiabR

Torqay wrote: »

Mercedes could be interesting. With 100 bhp more (if rumours are to believed), the teams probably don't mind the odd pit lane start (preferably in a safety car-prone race, say Singapore).

Agreed, very interesting if true, but if it is true:

1) What affect will it have on the fuel consumption
2) Is the extra power coming from the engine directly or is it a combined effort with the KERs pack.

As far as I am aware, the engines themselves will be in and around 600BHP with the KERs adding a further 160BHP for 33 seconds per lap, up from the 80BHP for 6 seconds per lap this year.

Going from 600BHP to 780BHP for a given time and with the affect of DRS, you think overtaking may be even easier next year? I can see the KERs units being used for defence next year more than attack.

Torqay

That power hast to be coming from the engine, as ERS is limited to 120kw/161hp and they all use the same P.U.R.E. unit.

And the turbo gap won't be noticeable unlike back in the day when they had to hit the pedal right in time to have the power available 2 or 3 seconds later... some guesswork that was.

ZiabR

Torqay wrote: »

That power hast to be coming from the engine, as ERS is limited to 120kw/161hp and they all use the same P.U.R.E. unit.

And the turbo gap won't be noticeable unlike back in the day when they had to hit the pedal right in time to have the power available 2 or 3 seconds later... some guesswork that was.

Yup there is little to no turbo lag. One of the most annoying things ever!!!

There is a little electric motor that keeps the turbo spinning when the driver is off the power so that when the pedal is pressed, the power is there! Amazing stuff.

Off topic i know, but we had an Evo 7 with a very large Garrett turbo and waiting for it to spool up on track days at Mondello was insane!

Back on topic, heat is the main issue with next years cars, there is SO much that needs to be cooled properly not to mention the bigger KERs units.

Rascasse

Torqay wrote: »

That power hast to be coming from the engine, as ERS is limited to 120kw/161hp and they all use the same P.U.R.E. unit.

No one will be using anything from PURE. They wanted to be an engine manufacturer (not just ERS) but folded. Never got off the drawing board.

I'd expect all teams will use the OEM ERS and Turbo systems that come with the engines, unlike now where the top teams make their own KERS systems.

Torqay

ERS is still limited to 120kw, thus any additional power has to come from the engine.

shamwari

logik wrote: »

After hearing the new V6 engines running, I still have mixed feelings on their sound. This year in Spa when the cars went up through Eau Rouge, the hair on my neck was standing. Fingers crossed that the new V6 engines still give you that sense of speed.

I was priviledged enough to see the last of the previous V6 turbo's in action at a very wet Silverstone in 1988. Despite the heavy rain,a 150L fuel limit and 2.5 bar of boost, they still looked and sounded the part believe me. Like all other big changes, Ive no doubt us fans will get use to pit pretty quick though - especially if the racing is close and exciting. Still though, the gorgeous sounding Ferrari V12 of the mid 90's is hallowed and will never be matched for sound

Rascasse wrote: »

I'd expect all teams will use the OEM ERS and Turbo systems that come with the engines, unlike now where the top teams make their own KERS systems.

If I'm not mistaken, the new common ERS units are made by Marelli.

Torqay wrote: »

Mercedes could be interesting. With 100 bhp more (if rumours are to believed), the teams probably don't mind the odd pit lane start (preferably in a safety car-prone race, say Singapore).

Personally, I find it unlikely that there would be such a large disparity in the performance of these new units as the rule constraints imposed on the design of these engines are fairly tight. But I do expect the Merc and Renault units to be on the money from the start. I predicted some time back that I expected Ferrari to be in difficulty as they lost a lot of their seasoned engine guru's after they froze the development of the V8'S