Jesus did have brothers and sisters

Festy

Half brother and sisters


So why do you Catholics say otherwise ?

Also why do you hold Mary up on a pedestal ?

She needed saviour just like you and me because she was not without sin..SHE WAS HUMAN

Sure what did Christ say himself on the cross to Mary


He said WOMAN not mother of God hold behold your son

Also why do you pray to Saints ?


They are man,not God they can not intercede..

What Christ said himself

John 14:6

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.


No mention about saints or Mary ...hmmm

So who do you go with Christ himself or the Priest on the altar ?

Here's another one Catholics ignore

Matthew 23:9 NIV ( Catholic Bible) lol

And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven


Referring to the Priests....

Geomy

Festy wrote: »

Here's another one Catholics ignore

Matthew 23:9 NIV ( Catholic Bible) lol

And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven


Referring to the Priests....

What's your religion Festy ?

Or are you just trying to pick a fight ?

Festy

Geomy wrote: »

What's your religion Festy ?

Or are you just trying to pick a fight ?

Protestant

Not trying to pick a fight...just stating fact...


But I am asking the question why Catholics refuse to go by the word of Christ himself over the man made doctrines ?

Faith2013

Hi, As regards Brothers of Jesus, Some historians think that Joseph took Mary to be his wife later in Life possibility after his First wife died. So it may be the fact that Joseph had children from a previous marriage who were brothers of Christ. Its just a theory. The word in the Bible for Brother does not always mean blood brother.

Catholics don't pray to saints to do anything, We pray they intercede for us in front of God.

As for calling a Priest Father.. Read this

Festy

Faith2013 wrote: »

Hi, As regards Brothers of Jesus, Some historians think that Joseph took Mary to be his wife later in Life possibility after his First wife died. So it may be the fact that Joseph had children from a previous marriage who were brothers of Christ. Its just a theory. The word in the Bible for Brother does not always mean blood brother.

Catholics don't pray to saints to do anything, We pray they intercede for us in front of God.

As for calling a Priest Father.. Read this

The same Pope who says all atheists go to heaven ?

No thanks...

and Mary did have kids after Jesus,she was not without sin..

The Only person who is without sin is not saints or Mary but Christ himself, because he is God...

Geomy

Festy wrote: »

Protestant

Not trying to pick a fight...just stating fact...


But I am asking the question why Catholics refuse to go by the word of Christ himself over the man made doctrines ?

The man made doctrines confuse a lot of people alright.

I think the Catholic teachings are very much like the story about the emperor with no clothes. ...
Everyone can see the contradictions but dare not to speak up.

Fear of retribution and alienation, parochial rejection etc. ..

Anyway I think there's a thread dedicated to Catholic and Protestant debates here somewhere.

Voodoo_rasher

Time to dust down a copy of The Da Vinci Code,methinks.

Festy

Voodoo_rasher wrote: »

Time to dust down a copy of The Da Vinci Code,methinks.

Time to get rid of the trolls/atheists,me thinks

Akrasia

What do you mean 'get rid of the atheists'?

That's not very christian

Festy

Akrasia wrote: »

What do you mean 'get rid of the atheists'?

That's not very christian

Go troll somewhere else

and don't hit back with that it's not very christian cliche,it'old news brah..

If you can't have a proper discussion without trolling kindly get lost...

rugbyman

Festy, I just typed out a long paragraph and deleted it in error.
So, short version, are you saying that Jesus DID have half brothers and sisters and that they are only half since Joseph was not the father of Jesus.

FAITH 2013 is there any biblical back up to your quoted theory re earlier children.surely if this waere true and if Jesus is the son of God not Joseph, then they are not brothers and sisters.

FESTY, you state that Mary and Joseph did have children, she was not without sin, whats the sin reference about.?

REGARDS,

Akrasia

Festy wrote: »

Go troll somewhere else

and don't hit back with that it's not very christian cliche,it'old news brah..

If you can't have a proper discussion without trolling kindly get lost...

You're not having a discussion, you're preaching.

None of your posts have been in the form of a discussion, they have all been declarations, and whenever anyone has tried to engage with you, you declare them to be a troll and tell them to get lost

Festy

rugbyman wrote: »

Festy, I just typed out a long paragraph and deleted it in error.
So, short version, are you saying that Jesus DID have half brothers and sisters and that they are only half since Joseph was not the father of Jesus.

FAITH 2013 is there any biblical back up to your quoted theory re earlier children.surely if this waere true and if Jesus is the son of God not Joseph, then they are not brothers and sisters.

FESTY, you state that Mary and Joseph did have children, she was not without sin, whats the sin reference about.?

REGARDS,

Mary was human just like you and me and just like the saints who Catholics pray too.

John 1:8

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

smcgiff

It amazes me the level of vitriol some Protestants hold against Mary. I cannot imagine Jesus being too pleased with the way they pour scorn on his earthly mother. Wasn't she the only person, per Christian doctrine, to asend into heaven?!? At the very least she is special.


Protestant/Catholic. Sunni/S'hitte. Me thinks a lot of people would be scrambling for excuses if their world view does come to pass.

Benny_Cake

Festy wrote: »

Go troll somewhere else

and don't hit back with that it's not very christian cliche,it'old news brah..

If you can't have a proper discussion without trolling kindly get lost...

Accuse someone of trolling one more time and you'll be banned. Brah.

Festy

smcgiff wrote: »

It amazes me the level of vitriol some Protestants hold against Mary. I cannot imagine Jesus being too pleased with the way they pour scorn on his earthly mother. Wasn't she the only person, per Christian doctrine, to asend into heaven?!? At the very least she is special.


Protestant/Catholic. Sunni/S'hitte. Me thinks a lot of people would be scrambling for excuses if their world view does come to pass.

I tell what amazes me is praying to man over God lol

We acknowledge that Mary is the mother of God we just don't pray to her because she is not God.She did not die on the cross for our sins,did she ?

Festy

Benny_Cake wrote: »

Accuse someone of trolling one more time and you'll be banned. Brah.

Maybe if you were doing your job correctly I wouldn't need too.

Benny_Cake

Festy wrote: »

Maybe if you were doing your job correctly I wouldn't need too.

Be seeing you in a week so.

johnnyskeleton

Came into this thread from the main screen and, ignoring the OP for a moment, someone mentioned that Protestants don't believe in Mary or pour scorn on her.

I had never heard this before and I was wondering why it is? Are there any links or websites on it?

smcgiff

Festy wrote: »

we just don't pray to her because she is not God.She did not die on the cross for our sins,did she ?

'Hail Mary... Pray for us sinners'

When Catholics pray the Hail Mary they ask Mary to intercede on their behalf. They don't pray TO Mary.

I know you're banned for a week (rightly) so, I'll just assume you agree with me

smcgiff

bikerjohn wrote: »

what do you expect from a Prod ? just look at the mess they made in the north............................:rolleyes:

Way off thread and no the Protestsnts did not make a mess of the north. John Charles McQuaid did his best to make a mess of the South. Not enough Protestants down here if anything.

Lapin

Festy wrote: »

Time to get rid of the trolls/atheists,me thinks

Festy wrote: »

Go troll somewhere else


If you can't have a proper discussion without trolling kindly get lost...

You never heard the one about the pot and the kettle.

I'm not religious myself but I wouldn't dream of coming on to the Christianity thread to open a shit stirring thread like this.

Bang out of order mate and you give atheists a bad name.

Have some respect. :mad:

Pro Hoc Vice

Festy wrote: »

The same Pope who says all atheists go to heaven ?

No thanks...

and Mary did have kids after Jesus,she was not without sin..

The Only person who is without sin is not saints or Mary but Christ himself, because he is God...

Festy, you come accros as so Angry. Why? Having researched many of the Christian denominations, it is my opinion that all have issues of Dogma that clash with the words of scripture. Many it not all sects spend much of their time on minor issues ignoring the most important commandment. But you of course know what Christ's message was. Why are you ignoring it?

In relation to Mary, she is venerated as a Saint in many Christian traditions, respect in all the rest and also has a very important place in the world of Islam. Does it really matter what one man calls her even if its different to what you or I believe.

To clarify my belief, I believe a man that is now called The Christ was born and his mother was Mary, I believe that either he had some amazing things to say or some people later said these things on his behalf. I believe the main teaching about love is a good way to live your life. But I do not believe he was divine.

looksee

As a now 'Protestant Atheist', Methodist to be exact, I can say that in my years of attending chapel I never heard anyone pour scorn on Mary, or indeed say very much about her at all except at Christmas in the Nativity story. There were no images, statues, crucifixes etc either, no big deal, just not part of the way things were done. There was a great deal of very good and enthusiastic singing, which I suppose in a way comes to much the same thing as other forms of 'display'.

Benny_Cake

I don't think that Protestants pour scorn on Mary. A few on the more fundamentalist end of the spectrum with a prejudice against Catholicism may come close to it, but broadly, I don't think so.

I'm a former Catholic who does think that some Catholics focus on Mary to such an extent that can lead to a lack of focus on Christ. I think that's largely due to a lack of understanding of what the Church teaches regarding Mary though. While I don't pray the Hail Mary, I hold her in the highest of reverence. The Magnificat is one of my favourite passages in the bible.

martinedwards

OK Festy, as you can still read this during your ban....

OK, from a prod, let me explain the PROD's version of Marian doctrine.

As it was explained to me by a 14 year old Catholic girl, under a tree on a sunny July day in Belfast.

if you are sick, you'd ask a friend to pray for you, right?

OK.

you believe that believers go to eternal life in heaven, right?

so Mary was obviously a believer, so it's reasonable to assume that she is alive in heaven.

so asking Mary to put a good word in, is the same as asking a friend to pray for you.

She isn't a part of the trinity, she's not God, she's just his Ma and might have more influence than your mate Billy.

same thing with praying to saints to intercede.

As to the brothers and sisters thing, the RC church believes that the virgin Mary stayed a virgin all her life.

the problem with that is that it is viewed as sinful within the Jewish religion to have a sexless marriage, so you have the difficult choice to make.....

did Mary remain a virgin in a sinful sexless (and therefore childless) marriage, or did she enjoy a normal marriage with sex and kids having hung her virginity up after the birth of Jesus. as after all the bible does say that Joseph didn't have sex with Mary until after Jesus was morn (Matt 1:25).

as to Mary ascending into heaven..... not in MY bible.... maybe in RC tradition, but not in the canon scripture.

what we can ALL agree on is that she was a virgin before during and after the conception of Christ through the Holy Spirit, and at least up to the Birth. THAT is what is important. whether or not Joseph and she made whoopie thereafter is irrelevant (IMHO)

rugbyman

Benny_Cake wrote: »

I don't think that Protestants pour scorn on Mary. A few on the more fundamentalist end of the spectrum with a prejudice against Catholicism may come close to it, but broadly, I don't think so.

I'm a former Catholic who does think that some Catholics focus on Mary to such an extent that can lead to a lack of focus on Christ. I think that's largely due to a lack of understanding of what the Church teaches regarding Mary though. While I don't pray the Hail Mary, I hold her in the highest of reverence. The Magnificat is one of my favourite passages in the bible.

Benny, I was about to thank the above, but wondering about the reverence bit. I doubt if your meant your passage to be inspired, so am not nit picking but will disect it.

Re Protestants scorn etc, I agree but think that anydistaste (scorn a tad too strong) that exists is for those who pray to Mary, rather than to dislike of Mary.
On a seperate note I remember a priest over 30 years ago annoying our congregation when he said that anyone who used rosary beads during Mass, just didnt get what Mass was

about.

While I dont pray the Hail Mary......nor do I, I Just dont pray.

Anyway heres the line that draws my attention
"I hold her in high reverence"

Why is this , she is a mother of a child, has no written about stuff that suggest anything special, I am , of course open to correction.

And Finally , the Magnificat, agree wholeheartedly, !!!!

Regards

Former catholic , moi aussi, but now althiest also.
Focus too much , I agree
Whether or not these(pray to Mary) are out of step with their Churchs beliefs, am not too sure

While I dont pray

rugbyman

Memo to me, must work on my typing and editing

Benny_Cake

rugbyman wrote: »

Benny, I was about to thank the above, but wondering about the reverence bit. I doubt if your meant your passage to be inspired, so am not nit picking but will disect it.
Re Protestants scorn etc, I agree but think that anydistaste (scorn a tad too strong) that exists is for those who pray to Mary, rather than to dislike of Mary.
On a seperate note I remember a priest over 30 years ago annoying our congregation when he said that anyone who used rosary beads during Mass, just didnt get what Mass was

about.

While I dont pray the Hail Mary......nor do I, I Just dont pray.

Anyway heres the line that draws my attention
"I hold her in high reverence"

Why is this , she is a mother of a child, has no written about stuff that suggest anything special, I am , of course open to correction.

And Finally , the Magnificat, agree wholeheartedly, !!!!

Regards

Former catholic , moi aussi, but now althiest also.
Focus too much , I agree
Whether or not these(pray to Mary) are out of step with their Churchs beliefs, am not too sure

While I dont pray

Ok, high respect or high regard would probably be a better way of putting it!

brian_t

What surprised me about the OP's posts was his use of the term "Catholics".

I would have expected someone who held his strict views to use the term "Roman Catholics".

(I know of course he may have been trolling).

strobe

Don't fight kids.

lmaopml

As a Catholic I venerate Our Lady - really who couldn't? The 'handmaid' of the Lord.


There is a vast difference in reading Scripture as a narrative, and the early Church and Fathers that sees Our Lady as playing a special role in the salvation of the world.

Not that she replaces Christ, but that she always points the way, because she was his Mum and a sword pierced her and she pondered it in her heart, but she was the very first Christian too. One couldn't go wrong emulating the handmaid - whether they are male or female.

The prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective -

In Catholic understanding, the faithful departed are not 'dead' but still part of the kingdom of God, they are alive and well because 'Our God is a God of the living' - and not separated from the body of Christ, but still a vital part of it.

Mary is not some kind of injection of paganism, no no, she is Jesus Mother - she is our Mother, because he said so on the Cross. Everything about Mary is part of explaining Jesus, everything derives from Christ - the Incarnation etc. Mary is human. We venerate her. Jesus is divine, God - we worship him. It's a silly thing to toss arguments about such a lady between Christians.

dvae

I personally believe that Mary had children other than Jesus, but can someone tell me what's the importance of Mary being an ever virgin to the Catholic faith.
is it a case of "we believe this, and you believe that", or is there something more?

Pro Hoc Vice

dvae wrote: »

I personally believe that Mary had children other than Jesus, but can someone tell me what's the importance of Mary being an ever virgin to the Catholic faith.
is it a case of "we believe this, and you believe that", or is there something more?

To some Catholics its more, the whole relationship between sex and sin, yes its a little strange but some guys (yes usually guys) can't get the difference between sex and sin.

lmaopml

dvae wrote: »

I personally believe that Mary had children other than Jesus, but can someone tell me what's the importance of Mary being an ever virgin to the Catholic faith.
is it a case of "we believe this, and you believe that", or is there something more?

It depends on how one reads Scripture, and also on how the early Church knew the tradition of the Apostles aside from interpreted it alone.

Our Lady i.e. Mary is seen as the Ark of the Covenant, which she absolutely is. She carried the word, not only in tablet form but the Word Incarnate. More Holy than your average lady - she carried and said 'Yes' - 'Amen'.

Our Lord describes himself as the Bread of life, the New Covenant, and also the Word.

There is a certain sense one gets from reading the OT and history of the people of God, and the Ark, that can't really be understood properly unless one wants to know, there is such depth in understanding continuity, but also difference.

The Ark was 'Holy' - it contained the 'Manna' i.e. the bread of the presence, the 'Word' in the form of the tablets of the Covenant, and Aaron the Priests rod. It was thought to reflect the presence of God with his people, but in Christianity it was a 'sign' like John speaks of so many signs, of the word incarnate. Jesus.

Jesus said he is the Bread of life, the New Covenant, and the Word. In other words the Incarnate God. Immanual (God with us)

Now, there was no hard and fast rule about sacrificing ones virginity in old times for the sake of 'growing up', not like today - In fact, 'virginity' was a prized thing. Also, during those times it wouldn't be unusual for a man to look after a girl who pledged herself to God. Catholic teaching says that Joseph was such a man, he was sent to look after and be part of that Holy Family.

Do you really believe that Joseph or Mary having known that Christ was born of that body - had to have sex? Or that they lived looking after the baby and teenage Jesus in awe and wonderment and that was their joy?

dvae

infosys wrote: »

To some Catholics its more, the whole relationship between sex and sin, yes its a little strange but some guys (yes usually guys) can't get the difference between sex and sin.

I was raised catholic, and yes I can remember that there was a connection between sex and sin. although probably not a catholic doctrine. I know that some believed that the act of intercourse was some how sinful.
I can remember as a kid being told, "the fruit Eve ate was just a euphemism for what really happened, Adam and Eve had intercourse".

dvae

lmaopml wrote: »

Do you really believe that Joseph or Mary having known that Christ was born of that body - had to have sex? Or that they lived looking after the baby and teenage Jesus in awe and wonderment and that was their joy?

fair enough but dose the Bible not say that Joseph had intercourse with Mary after Jesus was born?

lmaopml

No it doesn't.

dvae

lmaopml wrote: »

No it doesn't.

Matthew 1:24-25

New International Version (NIV)

24 When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25 But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

con·sum·mate TheFreeDictionary

a. To complete (a marriage) with the first act of sexual intercourse after the ceremony.

brian_t

Matthew 1:24-25 (King James Version (KJV))

24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus..

The above is interpreted by many Christians as suggesting that Joseph and Mary had a normal married relationship after the birth of Jesus.

StupidLikeAFox

Joseph may have had sex with his wife 2,000 years ago.

Joseph may not have had sex with his wife 2,000 years ago.

This is the crux of the debate at the moment

brian_t

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

Joseph may have had sex with his wife 2,000 years ago.

Joseph may not have had sex with his wife 2,000 years ago.

This is the crux of the debate at the moment

The thread title is Jesus did have brothers and sisters

Although the OP seems to have been trolling this is still a reasonable question in a Christian forum.

I believe that he had. The bible mentions on several occasions that he had brethern and the passage from Matthew specifically refers to Jesus as Marys Firstborn son.

claypigeon777

Joseph knew Mary not until she gave birth to her firstborn.
It is clear therefore that Joseph and Mary had a normal marriage after Jesus was born and they had sons and daughters including James, Joses, Jude, and Simon. When Jesus first spoke in the synagogue and was rejected his mother and father and his brothers and sisters are clearly mentioned. The passage in which Jesus tells his listeners when his mother, brothers and sisters arrive that anyone who follows him is his mother, brother or sisters was clearly put in the Bible because of the political division between Paul who never met Jesus and wanted to preach to the Gentiles and the family of Jesus who had hereditary control over the Jerusalem Church which remained a Jewish sect. James The Just, the brother of Jesus was an early leader who took over after his brother was executed.
The Jewish writer describes how James The Just was stoned to death by the High Priest Hanan ben Hanan.
The Jerusalem Church existed before and after the city was destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD.
When Bar Kokhba declared himself the Messiah around 130 AD the Christians in Jerusalem refused to support him.
It is likely that the Christian Church in Jerusalem was still ruled by descendants of Jesus' family.
It was part of Catharist belief that Jesus married Mary Magdalene and they had children.
After the defeat of the Jewish revolts the Jewish people were scattered and it is believed by some today that the daughter of Jesus and Mary Magdalene was Saint Sarah who moved to the south of France.
It is claimed by others that Sarah and her descendants married into the royal families of Europe.

K.Flyer

I think what some people forget is that Joseph and Mary were Jews and Jesus was born a Jew and that they would have, at that time, followed the traditions of their Jewish faith.
Because when Jesus was born there was no such thing as Christianity and there certainly was no Catholic church either.
Christianity, i.e. the following of the teachings and guidance of Jesus the Christ, really only started to develop as Jesus grew into adulthood. By this it would be highly plausible for his parents to still have been following normal family traditions and ways of the time of having a second son (the heir and the spare so to speak).
The new testament was written and in some parts re-written and it is my belief that the catholic church chose to omit or remove this other aspect to the family of Joseph and Mary in order to try and preserve the uniqueness of Jesus and to create the impression that the only way to Heaven is through Jesus and that the only way to Jesus was through the teachings of the Catholic Church. It is my opinion that the existance of a direct blood line to Jesus would have possibly posed some form of a threat to their credentials and therefore they endevoured then, and still do, prefer that the existance of brothers and / or sisters of Jesus is best not mentioned...

brian_t

Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." - John 14:6 (King James Version)

Whether or not Joseph and Mary went on to have children doesn't change that.

leonil7

if jesus did have brothers and sisters , this will discredit the belief about mary's perpetual virginity and whole lot of mariology beliefs.

no dicredit on jesus, in fact this supports his humanity being a part and growing up in a family.

James is describe as Jesus's brother (Gal 1:19).

I have no problem with that.

Manach

My 2c, that in John where it was stated "Woman, here is your son", would seem to imply Jesus passing his filial duty on, as there was none other to take the place.
Historically, attacks to impugn the status of Mary have characteristics an extreme element within Protestantism (Marian iconoclasm was almost de rigeur in some periods) and a classic example of cutting the nose to spit the face.

strobe

Even if Joseph and Mary went on to have children, that wouldn't really make them Jesus' brothers and/or sisters, would it? Or even half-brothers or half-sisters, would it?

Is the belief that Jesus had 50% of Mary's DNA, or that she was a surrogate?

If a woman acts as a surrogate, and then goes on to have her own children with a man who isn't the biological father of the surrogate child she birthed, are those children considered related to the first child, because they gestated in the same womb, despite having no biological link?

leonil7

that is like putting a 21st century criteria to a 1st century family.

they didn't even know the concept of surrogacy. who knows this things back then ? as long as you came out of the same womb, you are family. even if you are adopted as a son or daughter, you are family. that is how simple they see things.

however the query was : did jesus have brothers and sisters ?

and the bible is quite explicit, he did have.

Mar 6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? And are not his sisters here with us?"

Manach

leonil7 wrote: »

Mar 6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? And are not his sisters here with us?"

A fairly valid point. Non-obiter sources (ie wikipedia), point out that these could have corresponding to cousins or half-siblings. I'd not know enough from a historical standpoint to decide either way.

leonil7

i would not think Mark (the writer of the Gospel) would not be precise by describing cousins as cousin instead of brothers or sisters, much like mary being described as elizabeth's cousin.

take it as it is. no harm done on Jesus (his humanity and ministry).

as for the biblical Mary, being Jewish, she would have indeed considered himself blessed with so many sons and daughters.

as for the RCC Mary, this is disastrous.