Many new runners come from a mindset where everyone gets a medal and it's good enough

ecoli

@HannibalSmith I think you have hit the nail on the head with the point I made earlier in the thread. While alot of the posts may come across as somewhat elitist the fact you share the mentality with the winner of that race. The aim is to do ones best.

I think this is a unique thing within the likes of running/triathlon. It doesn't matter whether you run 2.02 for a marathon or 5.48 (just an arbitrary time) the feeling of breaking ones PB is the same.

This mentality is that of a runner irregardless of level but its when this idea is misinterpreted as the everyone is a winner and that its just the completing that counts. If someone has had to overcome what ever obstacles just to finish a marathon then by all means this is the achievement in itself (have seen some remarkable stories).

I think it is this mentality which is the distinguishing factor between "runners" and "participants". At the end of the day this is a sport and as such should be treated as such but I think the participant element has made many people forget this. Nowadays its an occasion, a charity fun run, a social day out. This has been to the detriment of the sport in recent times (the last 6 months particularly)

Running is a particularly welcoming sport but it should not be forgotten that it is indeed just that, a sport

Hannibal Smith

drquirky wrote: »

Good post. Congrats on finishing the MM- I wouldn't laugh at anyone who broke through their own personal comfort zone and took on a challenge. Just to put things into context- there isn't one poster on this forum who would be classed as "elite" in the grand scheme of things. One of the best thing about running is you can always strive to chase the next person faster than you (and unless your name is Bekele or Gebrselassie there is always a "next person") I'd suggest reading some of the logs (particularly ClaraLara's ) for a really good picture of what is possible. Good luck on your journey

That just goes to show how new to it all I am...the only reference point I have is the mini marathon and I think the people ahead of the joggers were called elite runners. I dont mean Sonia o'sullivan level....just a solid runner.

Again I know its on a very basic level...but I do understand the 'beating the person in front' mentality. I do that most evenings when I see people run around my route the opposite way....I try and get round quicker than them

Hannibal Smith

ecoli wrote: »

@HannibalSmith I think you have hit the nail on the head with the point I made earlier in the thread. While alot of the posts may come across as somewhat elitist the fact you share the mentality with the winner of that race. The aim is to do ones best.

I think this is a unique thing within the likes of running/triathlon. It doesn't matter whether you run 2.02 for a marathon or 5.48 (just an arbitrary time) the feeling of breaking ones PB is the same.

This mentality is that of a runner irregardless of level but its when this idea is misinterpreted as the everyone is a winner and that its just the completing that counts. If someone has had to overcome what ever obstacles just to finish a marathon then by all means this is the achievement in itself (have seen some remarkable stories).

I think it is this mentality which is the distinguishing factor between "runners" and "participants". At the end of the day this is a sport and as such should be treated as such but I think the participant element has made many people forget this. Nowadays its an occasion, a charity fun run, a social day out. This has been to the detriment of the sport in recent times (the last 6 months particularly)

Running is a particularly welcoming sport but it should not be forgotten that it is indeed just that, a sport

I know...and I do get that. I can see why you see it that way and I do see it that way too to a certain extent. I guess im just trying to say although there is someone finishing way down the field to the winner...its not an indication that they didnt take it seriously.

Fun runs and the like I suppose may be seen as a damage to the sport to the experts. ..but to others its a gateway into a sport they wouldn't have a hope of accessing otherwise. I hate the cliché of it, but a lot of people are running their own personal races and its nice that people recognise the effort you've made

Rogue Runner

ThisRegard wrote: »

After what we ran through on the Wicklow Way Trail this year every competitor deserved more than a bloody medal ! Actually, we did, we got a rather cool hand made mug. I've two now in the house from which I proudly drink from and it will always remind of that crazy day.

Do I care that other people think I deserved nothing, not an iota.

Having said that, very few races I run you get anything for competing anyway and I don't really care about that either.

Second that with the mug. Ran the ultra, The mug is the best trophy I ever won.

ecoli

Hannibal Smith wrote: »

I know...and I do get that. I can see why you see it that way and I do see it that way too to a certain extent. I guess im just trying to say although there is someone finishing way down the field to the winner...its not an indication that they didnt take it seriously.

Fun runs and the like I suppose may be seen as a damage to the sport to the experts. ..but to others its a gateway into a sport they wouldn't have a hope of accessing otherwise. I hate the cliché of it, but a lot of people are running their own personal races and its nice that people recognise the effort you've made

Again completely agree as I said before I would rather see someone train to break 4 or 5 hours and actually push themselves rather than someone who has been running for years and shows 2.30 potential and just trots around to break 3 hours.

I personally used to think that it is a good bridging gap into the sport and don't get me wrong I am not knocking it and think the likes of Fit4Life groups in clubs have been great. The point was rather that there is no correlation between the increase in participants and the increase of standards. The sport has almost become two tiered to the point where there is actually no common ground between the likes of the winner of DCM and the average runner doing their bit by running for charity. These events are being exploited as a revenue generating stream to the point where the pointy end are nearly becoming ostracised because they are not seen to make the races organisers money (the North American Rock and Roll series being a particular example in recent months)

Again my points where to acknowledge the average runner (regardless of level) paying hundreds of euro each year racing by having a recognition of their achievements (as I said a simple tiered system of shirt colours could create an external factor to acknowledge this without actually alienating anyone as it still has the everyone gets something mentality)

Your mention of the MM is actually a good one and the idea of the elite pin being set by an arbitrary barrier is a good reference of an external factor of motivation and acknowledgement of work put in by the mid packers

(this may come across as a mid packer whine but I assure you my point is rather focused on actively trying to improve the sport through a simple work/reward style template and while it may not be perfect its just a few idea's)

RayCun

I understand the motivation, but it's hard to implement a clear work> reward template for races.
At the sharp end, yeah, those runners have clearly worked very hard
But for everyone running slower than 2.30... are they running that time because they're lazy, and could have run much faster if they weren't just box-ticking charity fund raisers? Or are they running the fastest they can, this year at least, trained as much as they could, and plan to come back again even faster next year?

ecoli

RayCun wrote: »

I understand the motivation, but it's hard to implement a clear work> reward template for races.
At the sharp end, yeah, those runners have clearly worked very hard
But for everyone running slower than 2.30... are they running that time because they're lazy, and could have run much faster if they weren't just box-ticking charity fund raisers? Or are they running the fastest they can, this year at least, trained as much as they could, and plan to come back again even faster next year?

I agree it is a hard one and I am not saying it is always the fairest but if you looks to many sports you see the same sort of structures;

Team sports - The driving motivation to do well in training to make the squad/team or get promoted from reserves to seniors

Athletics to be fair has these sort of structures in place (AG categories, teams etc) but again this is confined to the structures of the NGB rather than the road races themselves so as such 75% of participants don't come under these structures.

Whether you are able to establish the work/reward template simply by putting it in place it offers an external factor to aim to improve the current structures

rom

I am a fun runner. If I was doing everything 100% then maybe so but the level of commitment of the top guys is jaw dropping. I was talking to a guy who ran a marathon on the day his GF gave birth. Its all about priorities and what is the most important thing in your life. I like to think I am a good runner cause I can run 62:30 for 10 miles and sub 18 for 5k but to be perfectly honest there is about 4 levels of dedication above me. Think shawshank redemption and the dedication drive and hope and needed to achieve the end goal and that is what you are talking about. But being a "fun runner" it does not mean I don't care what I do. I don't think fun runner is a bad term. It means I have fun because the guys that ain't don't have the time to as its strictly business. There is always more that you can give.

Some medals count more than others. No reason why people should not get a medal as everyone knows the difference from a souvenir and an achievement.

Slow_Runner

I don't belive medals are not given out cos "everyone's a winner" - they are merely souveniers and momentos, like the race t-shirts, and I doubt there are many that think of them as anything else. I think Hannibal Smith gives a perfect example why medals mean somthing to someone. There are however small minority of people that think they they deserve something without the effort (like in everything else in life), a good example being a certain journalist who walked DCM last yeat but started at 6am so she could experience the support of the crowd and get her finishers medal and another itme off the bucket list and the people who saunter the WMM stopping for a couple of bacardi breezers on the way and going around afterwards going "yea, just did a marathon". My attitude is - let them off but if these things bother the FOP runners then avoid the mass participatin events and stick to the (very well run) club/BHAA races. The mass participation events are a gateway and makes races like DCM what it is and gets the crowds out supporting. I personally don't care for medals (excpet my first(of hopefully many) DCM medals from last year:)) however I like to get t-shirts as a momento from races I have taken part in - each to their own.

As for this mentality being the reason why marathon times are falling I disagree dropping standards were caused years ago at school level and is only manifesting itself now. Hopefully this running boom will spark some renewed interest in athletics at a youth level and I can only hope that the system is in place to spot and nurture upcoming talent.

kevmc1180

To be fair i dont see the issue with most commentators here..
The person above is correct, that getting a medal whatever the time is just a souvenier or momento, just to say "yeah i ran in that race".
I remember my wife once getting a medal for some cherity walk she did one time cant remember which, she was delighted as she had never gotten a medal as a child..
The people who look down on people who do a marathon in 4 hours or whatever are very misguided individuals, to someone who does it 4 - 5- or 6 hours its an achievment and should get a medal or a shirt or something.
To some people finishing a marathon is an achievment.
There is no way i could finish a marathon....

Chivito550

kevmc1180 wrote: »

There is no way i could finish a marathon....

Yes you can. Unless you are obese (which in 99% of cases is self inflicted), or have a physical disability, then yes you can finish a marathon. Finishing a marathon is not an achievement. It may be a personal accomplishment yes, but it is no great achievement.

FutureGuy

Chivito550 wrote: »

Yes you can. Unless you are obese (which in 99% of cases is self inflicted), or have a physical disability, then yes you can finish a marathon. Finishing a marathon is not an achievement. It may be a personal accomplishment yes, but it is no great achievement.

Yes that's the reason why everyone in my office has a medal for a marathon. That's reason that everyone in my extended family has one too.

Finishing a marathon, or more specifically putting your body through immense training to be in the position to finish one, is a great achievement.

Only one person in my office has finished a marathon. I'm the first person on both sides of my family to even train for one. And I'm very proud of the fact that I am in the position to complete Dublin.

I couldn't care what everyone lese runs, I want to do my best, and then get better with every race. I ran my first HM in 2:12 and my second in 1:59. Slow compared to the average? Of course it is, but I was (and still am), thrilled about it!

Back to the medals, I'm not pushed about medals for smaller distances and I finished the HM in Charleville without getting a medal. But you will have to take my DCM medal out of my cold cold hands.

Chivito550

FutureGuy wrote: »

Yes that's the reason why everyone in my office has a medal for a marathon. That's reason that everyone in my extended family has one too.

Finishing a marathon, or more specifically putting your body through immense training to be in the position to finish one, is a great achievement.

Only one person in my office has finished a marathon. I'm the first person on both sides of my family to even train for one. And I'm very proud of the fact that I am in the position to complete Dublin.

Back to the medals, I'm not pushed about medals for smaller distances and I finished the HM in Charleville without getting a medal. But you will have to take my DCM medal out of my cold cold hands.

Anybody CAN finish a marathon. Nowhere did I say that anybody WILL finish one. Most people are too lazy to do any form of exercise these days. But are these the people we benchmark achievement against?

menoscemo

FutureGuy wrote: »

Yes that's the reason why everyone in my office has a medal for a marathon. That's reason that everyone in my extended family has one too.

Finishing a maathon, or more specifically putting your body through immense training to be in the position is a great achievement.

That's great but there are literally hundreds of people in DCM every year who don't train at all and walk around the marathon course in 7+hours.
They are also generally the same pople that whinge and moan when there aren't any t-shirts left in their size.

Training hard for a marathon and running your best on the day is an achievement of sorts; however 'completing' a marathon is not necessarily an achievement.

Ososlo

If you put in immense training then yes i would agree that it's a great achievement. But seriously most people could go out and just complete a marathon like yer wan that journalist from the Irish times mag last year who did it in 8 hours or something. To me that is not an achievement to be immensely proud of as anyone really could do that. If she was raising money then great it's a great achievement for that but not an achievement in athletic terms.

slingerz

i fail to see the problem here. Im a crap runner only just getting into it and will struggle to just complete my first ever half marathon in december.

but out on the course in a 5k or 10k race my goal is to beat the person in front of me be it for 562 place out of 563 and i would imagine that for those at the sharp end of things its the same as trying to come 1st or 2nd.

im lucky that i havent ever witnessed a snobbery where elite runners would look down on those in my class and slower and thats something i am grateful for.

Oops69

Medals should only be awarded to podium places at the Olympics or world championships , everyone else no matter where they run or how well placed they come in ' national championships ' are 'also Rans ' , no distinctions between them and the rest of the field , now how does that sit with the pseudo elites !

menoscemo

slingerz wrote: »

i fail to see the problem here. Im a crap runner only just getting into it and will struggle to just complete my first ever half marathon in december.

but out on the course in a 5k or 10k race my goal is to beat the person in front of me be it for 562 place out of 563 and i would imagine that for those at the sharp end of things its the same as trying to come 1st or 2nd.

im lucky that i havent ever witnessed a snobbery where elite runners would look down on those in my class and slower and thats something i am grateful for.

Oh For god sake!!
Why do people just not get what we are saying and instead take everything as some sort of personal insult. That's your own insecurities coming through; not the snobbery of 'elite'* :rolleyes: Runners.

fair play on you for what you're doing; sounds like you are training and trying your best. That is to be commended.
But if you were to never have trained or tries to compete or run a better time and just went out as a once off and walked around a 5k course; would that be an acheivemt to be lauded?

*BTW there are no elite runners on here as far as I know...

Cartman78

A medal is a nice memento to get after crossing the finishing line.

Surely people can make the distinction between getting a memento like that and actually winning a medal

Chivito550

Cartman78 wrote: »

A medal is a nice memento to get after crossing the finishing line.

Surely people can make the distinction between getting a memento like that and actually winning a medal

Why not give out certificates, fridge magnets, or DCM postcards instead! These could be valid momentos, and at the same time wouldn't make the sport look like a bit of a joke (where's the medals for mere participation in tennis, rugby, golf?).

average_runner

An achievement is down to each individual. But if you think the top 10 runners of a race look down at the last 10, your deluded, those top 10 are gone to the pub to catch the match, don't care about u.

Rantan

aaagghhh!!!

Im living in a cuckoo clock!!!

enough please...!!:p

hardCopy

Chivito550 wrote: »

Why not give out certificates, fridge magnets, or DCM postcards instead! These could be valid momentos, and at the same time wouldn't make the sport look like a bit of a joke (where's the medals for mere participation in tennis, rugby, golf?).

Golf is handicapped so that anyone can win.

Rugby has leagues and cups all the way down to Junior 6.

Running is already more elitist than either of these sports, at least in Golf, Rugby or Tennis you have a chance of winning a match from time to time. There is no ability graded equivalent in running so people look for some kind of validation in the form of a trinket. What's the harm?

average_runner

hardCopy wrote: »

Golf is handicapped so that anyone can win.

Rugby has leagues and cups all the way down to Junior 6.

Running is already more elitist than either of these sports, at least in Golf, Rugby or Tennis you have a chance of winning a match from time to time. There is no ability graded equivalent in running so people look for some kind of validation in the form of a trinket. What's the harm?

Have a handicap marathon race:eek:

RayCun

Chivito550 wrote: »

Why not give out certificates, fridge magnets, or DCM postcards instead! These could be valid momentos, and at the same time wouldn't make the sport look like a bit of a joke (where's the medals for mere participation in tennis, rugby, golf?).

Yes, all those football players, golf players, tennis players get together every weekend, stand around at the finish line of a race, and laugh at the stupid athletics people for giving out medals.

or just possibly
no-one gives a ****

The people winning races don't care and the people playing other sports don't care. The only people who seem to be bothered about slow people getting medals are the slightly faster people.

ThisRegard

average_runner wrote: »

Have a handicap marathon race:eek:

IMRA had an end of league handicap this year, I think it was missed the last 2 or 3, and not only does it allow someone further down the field a chance to win, it's also great craic.

TFBubendorfer

hardCopy wrote: »

Golf is handicapped so that anyone can win.

Rugby has leagues and cups all the way down to Junior 6.

Running is already more elitist than either of these sports, at least in Golf, Rugby or Tennis you have a chance of winning a match from time to time. There is no ability graded equivalent in running so people look for some kind of validation in the form of a trinket. What's the harm?

Running is elitist because everyone starts at the same time? I would have thought it's the other way round!

Your argument is completely wrong anyway, there are plenty of grades in running. They are called age groups!

average_runner

ThisRegard wrote: »

IMRA had an end of league handicap this year, I think it was missed the last 2 or 3, and not only does it allow someone further down the field a chance to win, it's also great craic.

We do it over 5k at the club.

RayCun

average_runner wrote: »

Have a handicap marathon race:eek:

We have handicapped 5k races in our club. Everyone has an estimated finish time based on a recent race result, and starts are staggered so that (in theory) everyone will finish at exactly the same time.

Every time we do it, the race is won by a novice, because they can easily improve by 30 seconds between races while the faster runners are happy to take off a couple of seconds from race to race.

But none of the faster runners care that they don't win, Maybe its because they aren't so uncertain of their ability or motivation that they need to be constantly told how special they are. Or maybe its because the winners don't get medals :eek:

Chivito550

hardCopy wrote: »

Golf is handicapped so that anyone can win.

Rugby has leagues and cups all the way down to Junior 6.

Running is already more elitist than either of these sports, at least in Golf, Rugby or Tennis you have a chance of winning a match from time to time. There is no ability graded equivalent in running so people look for some kind of validation in the form of a trinket. What's the harm?

Yes, but in each example you have listed there is a large element of competition. You still have to actually perform to earn your prize.

Btw, check out the Stawell Gift on youtube. A great example of how the lowly runners can compete against the best!

Here's a video of a bunch of nobodies getting to COMPETE against one of the greatest 400m female runners in history.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUQLV4gnWNY