Air Corps PC9

Stovepipe

No to the first. I'd say, based on experience, that they were told that they were not getting a new airframe (no budget) but were told that they could "overhaul" (ie, we can budget for overhauls so do one of them instead) the damaged one, ie, roll in a C-check early and add new blades, rotor train, engines, etc, so not a write-off, a rebuild. same result, different language used. Several Alouettes were saved from the scrapyard this way.

regards
Stovepipe

Morpheus

http://www.flyinginireland.com/news/air-corps-celebrate-reims-cessna-fr172h-40th-anniversary-october-2012.html

During 1972, the Department of Defence ordered eight Reims Cessna FR172Hs, with the first four (serials ‘203-206’) delivered on the 4th October 1972. The remainder (serials ‘207-210’) were delivered nine days later on 13th October. A ninth, (‘243’), an attrition replacement and a FR172K, was delivered on 7th April 1981. Today, five of these aircraft remain in service. ‘204’ was written off following a crash on 20th September 1978, ‘207’ on 1st March 1990, ‘209’ on 10th November 1993 and ‘243’ on 6th May 2004. Even though the 40th Anniversary is not due until October.

So it looks like they didnt replace 3 of the cessnas over the years. moot point anyway.

johnsds

Jawgap wrote: »

but in the 'current economic climate' you have to make do.

That's been the same bloody drivel excuse since the start.

johnsds

Markcheese wrote: »

Who /what is the Don .. ??

Baldonnel.

Markcheese wrote: »

Also what would we do with military transport planes?? Internationally can't see what ever we could/would buy would get aer Corp to where the army need to be , Ryan air can do Europe cheaper ... Domestically it's a small country , a jeep point to point would be nearly as quick as going base to airport to airport to destination...

Jesus wept...Right of the top of my head what about we strategically and rapidly transport out and return our own troops en mass instead of other militaries or charter Aircraft doing it for us so we can on our own project and sustain a military force close to or into a warzone, also the fact I'm sure MO'L wont fly a 738 into a warzone, and transport aircraft are bigger therefore can carry more and we could do mass parachute drops, LAPES drops, humanitarian AID at home and abroad, the list is endless

Markcheese wrote: »

Now transport helicopter is a different story..

We have those but the problem is we don't have ENOUGH of them.

hopperdavy

Anyone know what the Don are doing with their scrap and damaged aircraft that they cant sell as complete ?
My investigations have drawn a blank , just looking for some cockpit sections for our sim group .
Would across the water be a better bet ?

wotswattage

They often put retired equipment up on donedeal

wotswattage

Back on (kinda)topic, wouldn't it be great if the CASA's were just coming up towards the end of their airframe hours and the govt were in the market for a replacement. I reckon these would not only make great replacements, but they could significantly increase the capability the CASA's currently provide.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/u-s-air-force-shelving-brand-new-c-27j-spartans-article-1.1479580

The U.S. Air Force is putting brand new cargo planes directly into storage in an Arizona desert because it has no use for them — and is still expecting more, according to a report.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/u-s-air-force-shelving-brand-new-c-27j-spartans-article-1.1479580#ixzz2kTwFqscA

DieselPowered

I believe the Cessna's have received upgraded avionics over the Summer which should see them through another good few years service.

zone 1

wotswattage wrote: »

Back on (kinda)topic, wouldn't it be great if the CASA's were just coming up towards the end of their airframe hours and the govt were in the market for a replacement. I reckon these would not only make great replacements, but they could significantly increase the capability the CASA's currently provide.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/u-s-air-force-shelving-brand-new-c-27j-spartans-article-1.1479580

would be nice plane for the aer corps to get there hands on.

Stovepipe

the topic of the Air corps getting transport category aircraft always rears its head and ultimately, what it boils down to is, how would they use them? one answer: resupply to UN missions. Reply from Dept of Finance: too expensive, cheaper to hire in civilian transport. Imagine the cost of say, a C130 doing a run to Liberia or Chad. Also, the DoD, so Im told, did a study on this issue and concluded that an Air Corps run transport would spend most of it's service life either being used as a trainer for crews or on the ground being serviced. Cheaper in the long run to hire in ad-hoc charters for pax and freight or else ship it by sea (Liberia being a case in point).

regards
Stovepipe

wotswattage

Seeing as I mentioned the CASA's I was implying they be used as maritime patrol aircraft first and foremost(along with the other roles fulfilled by the CASA's), but nothing stopping them from being used in other roles too.

petergfiffin

wotswattage wrote: »

Seeing as I mentioned the CASA's I was implying they be used as maritime patrol aircraft first and foremost

Interesting article here http://www.casr.ca/bg-af-fwsar-candidates.htm listing the main candidates the Canadians were looking at in the area of fixed wing SAR which includes both the C-27 and the CN-295 amongst others, one of the main issues they listed with the C-27 was around low-speed performance when at low speed. I also imagine the running costs are much higher for the C-27 which I imagine would translate to a lower number of patrol hours.

wotswattage wrote: »

...but nothing stopping them from being used in other roles too.

I can only imagine this would lead to issues where aircraft aren't available for a patrol or SAR top-cover as they're doing an air-ambulance flight. My own suspicion is that when the CASAs reach the end of their life (if not before) the question will be whether to replace the aircraft or replace the agency doing the work with a private contractor. I think you need only look at our national heli-SAR capability in private hands versus before to see why people would consider private contractors for roles which are not directly military.

tippilot

wotswattage wrote: »

Back on (kinda)topic, wouldn't it be great if the CASA's were just coming up towards the end of their airframe hours and the govt were in the market for a replacement. I reckon these would not only make great replacements, but they could significantly increase the capability the CASA's currently provide.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/u-s-air-force-shelving-brand-new-c-27j-spartans-article-1.1479580

Non runner. Alena, understandably upset at the current turn of events, have stated that they will not support any aircraft that finds it's way to a non US third party.

Tabnabs

Interesting to see the UK are keen to get back into maritime patrol as it's an obvious omission currently.

The emphasis, according to officials, now is on a fleet of multi-mission aircraft (MMA) that could be configured for the land or sea surveillance mission. According to a letter to the Defense Committee publically released in July, analysis of the potential capabilities of an MMA will inform the next stage of the AIOS study, looking at priorities, potential requirements, and options to mitigate “capability gaps and shortfalls.” This section of the study will be complete in April 2014.

EADS is offering the Airbus Military C295 twin-turboprop transport in a maritime patrol configuration, similar to that operated by Chile. As part of its push, the company paid for the Portuguese air force to send one of its maritime surveillance C295s to the Royal International Air Tattoo at RAF Fairford in July. Alenia Aermacchi is likely to offer its ATR-72MPA variant of the successful regional airliner while Saab may offer its Swordfish MPA variant of its Saab 2000 regional airliner. The company has displayed the aircraft several times at shows in the U.K. over recent years. Lockheed Martin and Marshall Aerospace also are offering the potential to convert RAF C-130Js into MPAs.

The defense ministry has attempted to retain at least some level of maritime patrol skills by sending a small cadre of 32 RAF personnel to other countries with established maritime patrol capabilities, including New Zealand, Canada and the U.S. The initiative is funded through to 2019, but the project could be halted in 2016 if the 2015 SDSR maintains a maritime patrol gap, documents state.

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.aspx?id=/article-xml/awx_09_12_2013_p0-615385.xml

Stovepipe

with regard to dismantled airframes, ie, cockpit sections, there are quite a few in the hands of private owners in the UK and there are a few around Ireland. The Airventure place in Shannon has a few and there are a few Venoms in Portarlington.

regards
Stovepipe

hopperdavy

How would one go about getting some of those sections of cockpits from the authorities , do they sell them at auction ?]
Our sim group would have a major interest in them and they would be put to great use in the training of SIM pilots .

We did tender for the retired Kingair, but our tender was not accepted .

The damaged stuff would be of interest to us also if we could get our hands on them .

Stovepipe

The Air Corps' wrecks are not sold at auction. If they have been struck off charge, as no longer worth repairing, after any accident investigation, they are then sold as scrap. If someone died or was injured in an aircraft, then the usual policy is that the aircraft is scrapped under observation. When it comes to the retirement of a fleet, such as the Alouettes, they are either sold as a going concern or divvied out to recognised Museums. Like I said, there are plenty of sources in the UK for cockpits and I'm sure your sim group can find them. Try Newark Air Museum, for one.

regards
Stovepipe

hopperdavy

Stovepipe wrote: »

The Air Corps' wrecks are not sold at auction. If they have been struck off charge, as no longer worth repairing, after any accident investigation, they are then sold as scrap. If someone died or was injured in an aircraft, then the usual policy is that the aircraft is scrapped under observation. When it comes to the retirement of a fleet, such as the Alouettes, they are either sold as a going concern or divvied out to recognised Museums. Like I said, there are plenty of sources in the UK for cockpits and I'm sure your sim group can find them. Try Newark Air Museum, for one.

regards
Stovepipe

Well that's sorted them we will just have to get our museum up and runnin first and then apply to the df or the gov for any surplus aircraft they have. ,

Jawgap

wotswattage wrote: »

Back on (kinda)topic, wouldn't it be great if the CASA's were just coming up towards the end of their airframe hours and the govt were in the market for a replacement. I reckon these would not only make great replacements, but they could significantly increase the capability the CASA's currently provide.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/u-s-air-force-shelving-brand-new-c-27j-spartans-article-1.1479580

The Italian Air Force has just signed on the dotted line for the MC-27J (Praetorian) variant of this aircraft.......

Italy to operate a small fleet of MC-27J Praetorian gunships, special operations planes

During the Dubai airshow 2013, Alenia Aermacchi (a Finmeccanica Company) and the Aeronautica Militare (Italian Air Force) signed an agreement to provide development, testing, certification, industrialization and logistic support of the specialized version of the MC-27J known as Praetorian.

The Praetorian, is a specialized version of the MC-27J, that will support missions for the Italian Special Forces, Comando Operativo Forze Speciali (COFS).

Among the supported configurations one of the most interesting is the Fire Support one, that sees a Spartan cargo plane transformed into a Gunship (a mini-AC-130 Spectre) equipped with a side GAU-23 30 mm gun.

Still, of particular interest for the Italian Air Force are those that envisage the Spartan equipped with Communications Intelligence (COMINT), EO/IR (Electro optical/Infra-red) sensors for ISR (Intelligence Surveillance Reconnaissance), Border Surveillance, Command and Control missions.

“The Italian Air Force plan to transform three C-27J’s, currently in service, into the Praetorian configuration during 2016 and will include mission systems, C3ISR equipment and palletized support / fire systems. An additional three aircraft will also have the same mission package capabilities,” an Alenia Aermacchi press release explains.

.....the main feature of the gunship version of the Spartan is an ATK GAU-23 30mm precision weapon kit. It can be used to fire all types of NATO 30mm x 173 rounds, as well as the New Super 40 ammunition.

The kit is installed on the left hand side rear door and can be mounted in less than 4 hours.

Wouldn't mind seeing that practising at Gormanstown!

goldie fish

Italian air Forces to buy Italian built aircraft shocker....

Jawgap

Just an observation but the US Coastguard are interested in the C-27Js which were 'scrapped' by the US Air Force, in preference to their CASA-295s

Interview with Adm Robert Papp, Commandant of the US Coastguard....

Q. The US Air Force got rid of C-27J transports. There were 14 of them that you guys were interested in getting your hands on. Are you guys going to get those aircraft?

A. Well, we were interested in getting our hands on all 21 of them. Special Operations Command, I believe, is going to get seven of them and some number of aircraft were promised or at least directed to the Forest Service for fire fighting. It’s difficult for me to talk about the details of the negotiations right now but we’re working with the Forest Service to make sure that that is the particular aircraft that would suit their needs. We have C-130s that we can convert and turn over to them that might be better for them. But we have staffs that are working right now. Ideally, out of the remaining aircraft, we’d like to get 14 because that allows us to fully outfit three air stations. Anything less than that and we would have to go back and really re-evaluate the project.

Q. And then you end the purchase of the C295s that you’re doing and you would get those aircraft instead, new built aircraft.

A. We would do a new lay down of aircraft because the C-27J has a lot of the avionics and the engines that our C-130Js have. So there’s a lot of logistics compatibility there that we can gain synergies from. It’s a little bit more capable aircraft. It’s one of the aircraft we looked at when we started the Deepwater project. So we’re going to press ahead and get as many of those as we can.

Stovepipe

GF, the Italian AF were often the victim of their own native aircraft industry and ended up getting foisted with Italian aircraft that they didn't really want.all politics, especially defence politics are local!

regards
S

goldie fish

My point exactly.

Silvera

wotswattage wrote: »

Seeing as I mentioned the CASA's I was implying they be used as maritime patrol aircraft first and foremost(along with the other roles fulfilled by the CASA's), but nothing stopping them from being used in other roles too.

imho, we should have more than two CASA's for maritime - and other - missions.

If extra examples were to be purchased I believe we should opt for the multi-role versions as operated by the U.S. Coastguard. Their CASA's (which incidentially were inspired by their assessment of an Air Corps CASA which visited the U.S. some years ago) are equipped with a 'palletised' system whereby the aircraft can be set up for maritime duties, cargo duties, or troop transport all in a matter of a few hours by re-configuring the aircraft as required.

If the Air Corps were to purchase even one additional CASA (though I believe we should have 6 x CASA's), it should be ordered in this 'multi-role' configuration.

Markcheese

What sort of range and payload would a a transport or multiroll CASA have ...

source

Markcheese wrote: »

What sort of range and payload would a a transport or multiroll CASA have ...

According to wikipedia it's 4000kg.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CASA%2FIPTN_CN-235