Four shot dead in Austria, shooter also dead

Manic Moran

The US isn't alone in odd shootings this week.

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24140105

Three of the four were police. The fourth a medic trying to aid a shot policeman. One of the policemen had been taken hostage.

I will be very curious to read the AAR of this one. The police went into this knowing that they were trying to arrest him for armed crime. There aren't many "good" ways it could have gone this haywire.

Christ the Redeemer

A freak one in a decade shooting in the civilised world sure makes those... what is it... I lost count.... in America look much better. Good for you oh expert in all things death.

Amirani

Christ the Redeemer wrote: »

A freak one in a decade shooting in the civilised world sure makes those... what is it... I lost count.... in America look much better. Good for you oh expert in all things death.

Once in a decade? You'd wanna check that abacus.

Christ the Redeemer

My apologies. it's about 1.5 per decade.

P_1

Christ the Redeemer wrote: »

A freak one in a decade shooting in the civilised world sure makes those... what is it... I lost count.... in America look much better. Good for you oh expert in all things death.

Jesus H... Just when you think the Yank bashing has reached a new level of dickishness..

Unbalanced people + guns, usually = tragedies. Doesn't matter where it happens.

RIP to all involved but it sounds like the whole operation was a slight ballsup.

Christ the Redeemer

P_1 wrote: »

Jesus H... Just when you think the Yank bashing has reached a new level of dickishness..

Unbalanced people + guns, usually = tragedies. Doesn't matter where it happens.

RIP to all involved but it sounds like the whole operation was a slight ballsup.

No it doesn't matter where it happens. The point is this was posted by a smug American to show how his country isn't so bad after all. LOOK HERE! some places have mass shootings other than our 5 a year!

Manic Moran

Christ the Redeemer wrote: »

No it doesn't matter where it happens. The point is this was posted by a smug American to show how his country isn't so bad after all. LOOK HERE! some places have mass shootings other than our 5 a year!

Although part of the point is, indeed, that the US is not alone in such firearms incidents, the incidents themselves are not directly comparable. One was a shooting rampage against people who had not considered themselves at risk, the other seems to me right now to have been a balls-up by police who were trying to arrest a (55-year-old) person known to use his firearm unlawfully.

Now, there are a couple of observations here.

1) The incident is apparently 'unprecedented' in Austrian history. One would have thought it would be deserving of observation on its own merit. Shooting a number of police officers tends to attract mention on Boards as it is.

2) If the incident would have been worthy of comment absent any events in the US, it is probably worthy of comment with the event in the US. In which case why is a US resident making the thread and why is a (presumably) European resident talking about 'smug Americans'? Or is it that said (presumed) European does not wish it pointed out that the US is not alone in its problems because (s)he finds it reduces his/her own sense of superiority?

3) Being, as I am, somewhat experienced with the practice of detaining armed personnel and engaging in firefights, I am probably well placed to have an active interest in the matter beyond firearms politics given the immediate thought of a tactical failure by Austrian police. (I am reluctant to so conclude, absent any knowledge, but the question must be at least raised)

4) My parents live in Vienna. It's something which is going to attract my attention. (Actually, they told me about it. US news is pathetic and didn't mention it)

Incidently, I consider myself more an Irishman in the US than an American who happens to have something of an Irish accent

Zebra3

Manic Moran wrote: »

given the immediate thought of a tactical failure by Austrian police. (I am reluctant to so conclude, absent any knowledge

Not really reluctant, are you? :rolleyes:

MadsL

Manic Moran wrote: »

Although part of the point is, indeed, that the US is not alone in such firearms incidents, the incidents themselves are not directly comparable. One was a shooting rampage against people who had not considered themselves at risk, the other seems to me right now to have been a balls-up by police who were trying to arrest a (55-year-old) person known to use his firearm unlawfully.

Now, there are a couple of observations here.

1) The incident is apparently 'unprecedented' in Austrian history. One would have thought it would be deserving of observation on its own merit. Shooting a number of police officers tends to attract mention on Boards as it is.

2) If the incident would have been worthy of comment absent any events in the US, it is probably worthy of comment with the event in the US. In which case why is a US resident making the thread and why is a (presumably) European resident talking about 'smug Americans'? Or is it that said (presumed) European does not wish it pointed out that the US is not alone in its problems because (s)he finds it reduces his/her own sense of superiority?

3) Being, as I am, somewhat experienced with the practice of detaining armed personnel and engaging in firefights, I am probably well placed to have an active interest in the matter beyond firearms politics given the immediate thought of a tactical failure by Austrian police. (I am reluctant to so conclude, absent any knowledge, but the question must be at least raised)

4) My parents live in Vienna. It's something which is going to attract my attention. (Actually, they told me about it. US news is pathetic and didn't mention it)

Incidently, I consider myself more an Irishman in the US than an American who happens to have something of an Irish accent

Amazed you dignified such a poster with an answer; a polite answer at that. Fair play to you.

Manic Moran

Zebra3 wrote: »

Not really reluctant, are you? :rolleyes:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/conclude

Immediate thought =/= conclusion.

humanji

Christ The Redeemer banned for, well pretty much everything they've posted in the last day.

BeerWolf

Christ the Redeemer wrote: »

No it doesn't matter where it happens. The point is this was posted by a smug American to show how his country isn't so bad after all. LOOK HERE! some places have mass shootings other than our 5 a year!

You have to take into account the population differences between the US, and much much smaller countries in the EU.

Not defending the US with regards to their Gun fetish ways - just saying.

humanji

humanji wrote: »

Christ The Redeemer banned for, well pretty much everything they've posted in the last day.

So you could say that they won't be getting much redemption then?

Elbaston

Deleted User wrote: »

So you could say that they won't be getting much redemption then?

He'll be back in 3 days.

FouxDaFaFa

Terrible story.

Especially shooting the paramedic and killing his hostage, rather than releasing him.

I mean, it's not as if it was a big mystery where he was and he needed to kill the officer for that reason. He was in his own house.

People.

I wonder how long he would have gone to prison for poaching? It seems like it wouldn't be such a long sentence to warrant killing everyone around you and yourself to avoid prison.

paddy147

Manic Moran wrote: »

The US isn't alone in odd shootings this week.

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24140105

Three of the four were police. The fourth a medic trying to aid a shot policeman. One of the policemen had been taken hostage.

I will be very curious to read the AAR of this one. The police went into this knowing that they were trying to arrest him for armed crime. There aren't many "good" ways it could have gone this haywire.

Watched it on Sky News....Tanks,armoured trucks and robots....austrian police take no sh1t from no one..:pac::D


What have the gardai got for a situation like this........a few clapped out garda cars a mobile phone or 2 and a maybe mars bar.:pac:

MonaPizza

BeerWolf wrote: »

You have to take into account the population differences between the US, and much much smaller countries in the EU.

Not defending the US with regards to their Gun fetish ways - just saying.

Then why don't you compare states by population size to smaller countries in the EU.

Ireland. Population: 4.5 million. 2010 gun homicides: 16

Kentucky Population: 4.3 million. 2010 gun homicides: 116
Louisiana Population: 4.5 million. 2010 gun homicides: 351
S. Carolina Population: 4.6 million. 2010 gun homicides: 207

MadsL

MonaPizza wrote: »

Then why don't you compare states by population size to smaller countries in the EU.

Ireland. Population: 4.5 million. 2010 gun homicides: 16

Kentucky Population: 4.3 million. 2010 gun homicides: 116
Louisiana Population: 4.5 million. 2010 gun homicides: 351
S. Carolina Population: 4.6 million. 2010 gun homicides: 207

Ireland - Poverty level 5.5%

Kentucky - Poverty level 14.8%
Louisiana - Poverty level 18.3%
S. Carolina - Poverty level 15.0%

You just happened to pick three of the poorest states in the US.

I think you are possibly comparing the wrong statistics.

joseph brand

MadsL wrote: »

Ireland - Poverty level 5.5%

Kentucky - Poverty level 14.8%
Louisiana - Poverty level 18.3%
S. Carolina - Poverty level 15.0%

You just happened to pick three of the poorest states in the US.

I think you are possibly comparing the wrong statistics.

I think you are possibly wrong. Here's a list of US states by population.

Those states are indeed the closest to Ireland by population.

GalwayGuy2

Originally Posted by MonaPizza
Then why don't you compare states by population size to smaller countries in the EU.

Ireland. Population: 4.5 million. 2010 gun homicides: 16

Kentucky Population: 4.3 million. 2010 gun homicides: 116
Louisiana Population: 4.5 million. 2010 gun homicides: 351
S. Carolina Population: 4.6 million. 2010 gun homicides: 207
Ireland - Poverty level 5.5%

Kentucky - Poverty level 14.8%
Louisiana - Poverty level 18.3%
S. Carolina - Poverty level 15.0%

You just happened to pick three of the poorest states in the US.

I think you are possibly comparing the wrong statistics.

It'd be interesting to compare the population densities of all four places.

And, also to factor in other types of assaults, such as with a knife or a beating that will land some one in the hospital.

MadsL

joseph brand wrote: »

Those states are indeed the closest to Ireland by population.

The point I making is that you are not comparing poverty levels. More poverty general = more crime.

New Hampshire has the same poverty rate as Ireland, it's murder rate is 1.3 per 100,000. Ireland's murder rate is 1.59 murders per 100,000 people, Dublin would be higher than that.

New Hampshire does not require you to have a license or a permit to buy or own guns.

MonaPizza

MadsL wrote: »

Ireland - Poverty level 5.5%

Kentucky - Poverty level 14.8%
Louisiana - Poverty level 18.3%
S. Carolina - Poverty level 15.0%

You just happened to pick three of the poorest states in the US.

I think you are possibly comparing the wrong statistics.

OK,

Pick your states with "other statistics" or whatever your criteria are.
How about Delaware or Maryland? With populations SIGNIFICANTLY lower than Ireland's and with income SUBSTANTIALLY higher?
How about Colorado? No gangbangers or color there.
Let us all know when you stop moving the goalposts.

Let me guess what your next move is:

Portugal: X gun murders
NYC: 500X gun murders

You: (blab about anything like the temperature or the languages or the cops other than the facts!)

MonaPizza

MadsL wrote: »

Ireland - Poverty level 5.5%

Kentucky - Poverty level 14.8%
Louisiana - Poverty level 18.3%
S. Carolina - Poverty level 15.0%

You just happened to pick three of the poorest states in the US.

I think you are possibly comparing the wrong statistics.

And why are you bringing up poverty levels?
Are you saying that poverty levels contibute to gun murders?
Because the poverty level in Nepal or Bhutan is probably what would make
you P Diddy just because you have a bar of soap. What are their gun murder levels?

How about the State of New Jersey, Madsl...hmm?

With a population of 8.6 million....about twice that of Ireland ....gun murders: 246 per annum

That's a big UP on the population. How "poor" are the Joysey-ites? Lemme guess, Madsl....they got mad ghettoes, yo!

Now tell me how rich is Connecticut.....home of YALE and New England Blue Bloods? Must be better off than poxy little Ireland.

POPULATION: 3.6 million. Gun Murders in 2010: 97


Ooooh that poverty benchmark....or whatever it is you try to use as a bargaining chip.

MadsL

MonaPizza wrote: »

And why are you bringing up poverty levels?
Are you saying that poverty levels contibute to gun murders?
Because the poverty level in Nepal or Bhutan is probably what would make
you P Diddy just because you have a bar of soap. What are their gun murder levels?

Nepal had a murder rate of 2.8, Bhutan is weird one, at 1.0 but then it is ranked eighth happiest nation on earth.

Do you really think poverty and murder don't have a correlation?

http://cdn1.globalissues.org/i/poverty/equalitytrust/income-inequality-homicides.gif

“The link between inequality and homicide rates has been shown in as many as 40 studies, and the differences are large: there are five-fold differences in murder rates between different countries related to inequality. The most important reason why violence is more common in more unequal societies is that it is often triggered by people feeling looked down, disrespected and loss of face.”

http://www.globalissues.org/article/4/poverty-around-the-world

meathstevie

paddy147 wrote: »

Watched it on Sky News....Tanks,armoured trucks and robots....austrian police take no sh1t from no one..:pac::D


What have the gardai got for a situation like this........a few clapped out garda cars a mobile phone or 2 and a maybe mars bar.:pac:

You'll find that the Garda toolshed is surprisingly well equipped. Light armoured vehicles ( granted not on tracks ), check, robot ( with some Defence Forces assistance ), check, appropriate firearms, check, air support, check, high end body armour, check, etc etc...don't underestimate good old AGS, you may find that they have plenty of tools and the skills to use them when the need arises.

MonaPizza

MadsL wrote: »

Nepal had a murder rate of 2.8, Bhutan is weird one, at 1.0 but then it is ranked eighth happiest nation on earth.

Do you really think poverty and murder don't have a correlation?

http://cdn1.globalissues.org/i/poverty/equalitytrust/income-inequality-homicides.gif



http://www.globalissues.org/article/4/poverty-around-the-world

We're talking GUN MURDER rates here, pal.

Nice try!

So now, you brought up a load of crap about poverty indices earlier on.
Can you correlate that rubbish to richer states that have a higher gun murder rate than Ireland's 5.5% poverty rate
that you quickly jumped upon?

Explain.

MadsL

MonaPizza wrote: »

We're talking GUN MURDER rates here, pal.

Nice try!

So now, you brought up a load of crap about poverty indices earlier on.
Can you correlate that rubbish to richer states that have a higher gun murder rate than Ireland's 5.5% poverty rate
that you quickly jumped upon?

Explain.

Income inequality is one potential correlation as posted above, you did read my post?

If you don't murder someone with a gun you don't murder them at all...interesting fallacy.

MonaPizza

Now Madsl,

The population of California is about 39/40 million
The population of Spain is about 46/47 million.

The gun murders statistics for California in 2010 are: 1257
The gun murders statistics for Spain in 2010 are: 67

Is California RICHER than Spain? You bet, Madsl!

So what was that caper about poverty that you brought up?

Let's pick a US state (I recommend Arizona) and then try to find a country where LESS people have died by the gun (warzones don't count!)

MadsL

MonaPizza wrote: »

How about the State of New Jersey, Madsl...hmm?

With a population of 8.6 million....about twice that of Ireland ....gun murders: 246 per annum

That's a big UP on the population. How "poor" are the Joysey-ites? Lemme guess, Madsl....they got mad ghettoes, yo!

Now tell me how rich is Connecticut.....home of YALE and New England Blue Bloods? Must be better off than poxy little Ireland.

POPULATION: 3.6 million. Gun Murders in 2010: 97


Ooooh that poverty benchmark....or whatever it is you try to use as a bargaining chip.

That's a lot of spelling changes...so your edited post.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/09/new-jersey-poverty_n_3894503.html

9.7% is the poverty rate in Connecticut- almost twice Ireland's rate - do you even look this stuff up before posting?

MadsL

MonaPizza wrote: »

Now Madsl,

The population of California is about 39/40 million
The population of Spain is about 46/47 million.

The gun murders statistics for California in 2010 are: 1257
The gun murders statistics for Spain in 2010 are: 67

Is California RICHER than Spain? You bet, Madsl!

So what was that caper about poverty that you brought up?

Let's pick a US state (I recommend Arizona) and then try to find a country where LESS people have died by the gun (warzones don't count!)

You still haven't read my posts.

Go have a look at income inequality rates as I posted earlier -Does California have massive income inequality - oh hell yeah.

MadsL

Studies have shown that poverty and income are powerful predictors of homicide and violent crime. We hypothesized that the effect of the growing gap between the rich and poor is mediated through an undermining of social cohesion, or social capital, and that decreased social capital is in turn associated with increased firearm homicide and violent crime. Social capital was measured by the weighted responses to two items from the U.S. General Social Survey: the per capita density of membership in voluntary groups in each state; and the level of social trust, as gauged by the proportion of residents in each state who believed that "most people would take advantage of you if they got the chance". Age-standardized firearm homicide rates for the years 1987-1991 and firearm robbery and assault incidence rates for years 1991-1994 were obtained for each of the 50 U.S. states. Income inequality was strongly correlated with firearm violent crime (firearm homicide, r = 0.76) as well as the measures of social capital: per capita group membership (r = -0.40) and lack of social trust (r = 0.73). In turn, both social trust (firearm homicide, r = 0.83) and group membership (firearm homicide, r = -0.49) were associated with firearm violent crime. These relationships held when controlling for poverty and a proxy variable for access to firearms. The profound effects of income inequality and social capital, when controlling for other factors such as poverty and firearm availability, on firearm violent crime indicate that policies that address these broader, macro-social forces warrant serious consideration.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9683374