Four shot dead in Austria, shooter also dead

Manic Moran

The US isn't alone in odd shootings this week.

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24140105

Three of the four were police. The fourth a medic trying to aid a shot policeman. One of the policemen had been taken hostage.

I will be very curious to read the AAR of this one. The police went into this knowing that they were trying to arrest him for armed crime. There aren't many "good" ways it could have gone this haywire.

Christ the Redeemer

A freak one in a decade shooting in the civilised world sure makes those... what is it... I lost count.... in America look much better. Good for you oh expert in all things death.

Amirani

Christ the Redeemer wrote: »

A freak one in a decade shooting in the civilised world sure makes those... what is it... I lost count.... in America look much better. Good for you oh expert in all things death.

Once in a decade? You'd wanna check that abacus.

Christ the Redeemer

My apologies. it's about 1.5 per decade.

P_1

Christ the Redeemer wrote: »

A freak one in a decade shooting in the civilised world sure makes those... what is it... I lost count.... in America look much better. Good for you oh expert in all things death.

Jesus H... Just when you think the Yank bashing has reached a new level of dickishness..

Unbalanced people + guns, usually = tragedies. Doesn't matter where it happens.

RIP to all involved but it sounds like the whole operation was a slight ballsup.

Christ the Redeemer

P_1 wrote: »

Jesus H... Just when you think the Yank bashing has reached a new level of dickishness..

Unbalanced people + guns, usually = tragedies. Doesn't matter where it happens.

RIP to all involved but it sounds like the whole operation was a slight ballsup.

No it doesn't matter where it happens. The point is this was posted by a smug American to show how his country isn't so bad after all. LOOK HERE! some places have mass shootings other than our 5 a year!

Manic Moran

Christ the Redeemer wrote: »

No it doesn't matter where it happens. The point is this was posted by a smug American to show how his country isn't so bad after all. LOOK HERE! some places have mass shootings other than our 5 a year!

Although part of the point is, indeed, that the US is not alone in such firearms incidents, the incidents themselves are not directly comparable. One was a shooting rampage against people who had not considered themselves at risk, the other seems to me right now to have been a balls-up by police who were trying to arrest a (55-year-old) person known to use his firearm unlawfully.

Now, there are a couple of observations here.

1) The incident is apparently 'unprecedented' in Austrian history. One would have thought it would be deserving of observation on its own merit. Shooting a number of police officers tends to attract mention on Boards as it is.

2) If the incident would have been worthy of comment absent any events in the US, it is probably worthy of comment with the event in the US. In which case why is a US resident making the thread and why is a (presumably) European resident talking about 'smug Americans'? Or is it that said (presumed) European does not wish it pointed out that the US is not alone in its problems because (s)he finds it reduces his/her own sense of superiority?

3) Being, as I am, somewhat experienced with the practice of detaining armed personnel and engaging in firefights, I am probably well placed to have an active interest in the matter beyond firearms politics given the immediate thought of a tactical failure by Austrian police. (I am reluctant to so conclude, absent any knowledge, but the question must be at least raised)

4) My parents live in Vienna. It's something which is going to attract my attention. (Actually, they told me about it. US news is pathetic and didn't mention it)

Incidently, I consider myself more an Irishman in the US than an American who happens to have something of an Irish accent

Zebra3

Manic Moran wrote: »

given the immediate thought of a tactical failure by Austrian police. (I am reluctant to so conclude, absent any knowledge

Not really reluctant, are you? :rolleyes:

MadsL

Manic Moran wrote: »

Although part of the point is, indeed, that the US is not alone in such firearms incidents, the incidents themselves are not directly comparable. One was a shooting rampage against people who had not considered themselves at risk, the other seems to me right now to have been a balls-up by police who were trying to arrest a (55-year-old) person known to use his firearm unlawfully.

Now, there are a couple of observations here.

1) The incident is apparently 'unprecedented' in Austrian history. One would have thought it would be deserving of observation on its own merit. Shooting a number of police officers tends to attract mention on Boards as it is.

2) If the incident would have been worthy of comment absent any events in the US, it is probably worthy of comment with the event in the US. In which case why is a US resident making the thread and why is a (presumably) European resident talking about 'smug Americans'? Or is it that said (presumed) European does not wish it pointed out that the US is not alone in its problems because (s)he finds it reduces his/her own sense of superiority?

3) Being, as I am, somewhat experienced with the practice of detaining armed personnel and engaging in firefights, I am probably well placed to have an active interest in the matter beyond firearms politics given the immediate thought of a tactical failure by Austrian police. (I am reluctant to so conclude, absent any knowledge, but the question must be at least raised)

4) My parents live in Vienna. It's something which is going to attract my attention. (Actually, they told me about it. US news is pathetic and didn't mention it)

Incidently, I consider myself more an Irishman in the US than an American who happens to have something of an Irish accent

Amazed you dignified such a poster with an answer; a polite answer at that. Fair play to you.

Manic Moran

Zebra3 wrote: »

Not really reluctant, are you? :rolleyes:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/conclude

Immediate thought =/= conclusion.

humanji

Christ The Redeemer banned for, well pretty much everything they've posted in the last day.

BeerWolf

Christ the Redeemer wrote: »

No it doesn't matter where it happens. The point is this was posted by a smug American to show how his country isn't so bad after all. LOOK HERE! some places have mass shootings other than our 5 a year!

You have to take into account the population differences between the US, and much much smaller countries in the EU.

Not defending the US with regards to their Gun fetish ways - just saying.

humanji

humanji wrote: »

Christ The Redeemer banned for, well pretty much everything they've posted in the last day.

So you could say that they won't be getting much redemption then?

Elbaston

Deleted User wrote: »

So you could say that they won't be getting much redemption then?

He'll be back in 3 days.

FouxDaFaFa

Terrible story.

Especially shooting the paramedic and killing his hostage, rather than releasing him.

I mean, it's not as if it was a big mystery where he was and he needed to kill the officer for that reason. He was in his own house.

People.

I wonder how long he would have gone to prison for poaching? It seems like it wouldn't be such a long sentence to warrant killing everyone around you and yourself to avoid prison.

paddy147

Manic Moran wrote: »

The US isn't alone in odd shootings this week.

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24140105

Three of the four were police. The fourth a medic trying to aid a shot policeman. One of the policemen had been taken hostage.

I will be very curious to read the AAR of this one. The police went into this knowing that they were trying to arrest him for armed crime. There aren't many "good" ways it could have gone this haywire.

Watched it on Sky News....Tanks,armoured trucks and robots....austrian police take no sh1t from no one..:pac::D


What have the gardai got for a situation like this........a few clapped out garda cars a mobile phone or 2 and a maybe mars bar.:pac:

MonaPizza

BeerWolf wrote: »

You have to take into account the population differences between the US, and much much smaller countries in the EU.

Not defending the US with regards to their Gun fetish ways - just saying.

Then why don't you compare states by population size to smaller countries in the EU.

Ireland. Population: 4.5 million. 2010 gun homicides: 16

Kentucky Population: 4.3 million. 2010 gun homicides: 116
Louisiana Population: 4.5 million. 2010 gun homicides: 351
S. Carolina Population: 4.6 million. 2010 gun homicides: 207

MadsL

MonaPizza wrote: »

Then why don't you compare states by population size to smaller countries in the EU.

Ireland. Population: 4.5 million. 2010 gun homicides: 16

Kentucky Population: 4.3 million. 2010 gun homicides: 116
Louisiana Population: 4.5 million. 2010 gun homicides: 351
S. Carolina Population: 4.6 million. 2010 gun homicides: 207

Ireland - Poverty level 5.5%

Kentucky - Poverty level 14.8%
Louisiana - Poverty level 18.3%
S. Carolina - Poverty level 15.0%

You just happened to pick three of the poorest states in the US.

I think you are possibly comparing the wrong statistics.

joseph brand

MadsL wrote: »

Ireland - Poverty level 5.5%

Kentucky - Poverty level 14.8%
Louisiana - Poverty level 18.3%
S. Carolina - Poverty level 15.0%

You just happened to pick three of the poorest states in the US.

I think you are possibly comparing the wrong statistics.

I think you are possibly wrong. Here's a list of US states by population.

Those states are indeed the closest to Ireland by population.

GalwayGuy2

Originally Posted by MonaPizza
Then why don't you compare states by population size to smaller countries in the EU.

Ireland. Population: 4.5 million. 2010 gun homicides: 16

Kentucky Population: 4.3 million. 2010 gun homicides: 116
Louisiana Population: 4.5 million. 2010 gun homicides: 351
S. Carolina Population: 4.6 million. 2010 gun homicides: 207
Ireland - Poverty level 5.5%

Kentucky - Poverty level 14.8%
Louisiana - Poverty level 18.3%
S. Carolina - Poverty level 15.0%

You just happened to pick three of the poorest states in the US.

I think you are possibly comparing the wrong statistics.

It'd be interesting to compare the population densities of all four places.

And, also to factor in other types of assaults, such as with a knife or a beating that will land some one in the hospital.

MadsL

joseph brand wrote: »

Those states are indeed the closest to Ireland by population.

The point I making is that you are not comparing poverty levels. More poverty general = more crime.

New Hampshire has the same poverty rate as Ireland, it's murder rate is 1.3 per 100,000. Ireland's murder rate is 1.59 murders per 100,000 people, Dublin would be higher than that.

New Hampshire does not require you to have a license or a permit to buy or own guns.

MonaPizza

MadsL wrote: »

Ireland - Poverty level 5.5%

Kentucky - Poverty level 14.8%
Louisiana - Poverty level 18.3%
S. Carolina - Poverty level 15.0%

You just happened to pick three of the poorest states in the US.

I think you are possibly comparing the wrong statistics.

OK,

Pick your states with "other statistics" or whatever your criteria are.
How about Delaware or Maryland? With populations SIGNIFICANTLY lower than Ireland's and with income SUBSTANTIALLY higher?
How about Colorado? No gangbangers or color there.
Let us all know when you stop moving the goalposts.

Let me guess what your next move is:

Portugal: X gun murders
NYC: 500X gun murders

You: (blab about anything like the temperature or the languages or the cops other than the facts!)

MonaPizza

MadsL wrote: »

Ireland - Poverty level 5.5%

Kentucky - Poverty level 14.8%
Louisiana - Poverty level 18.3%
S. Carolina - Poverty level 15.0%

You just happened to pick three of the poorest states in the US.

I think you are possibly comparing the wrong statistics.

And why are you bringing up poverty levels?
Are you saying that poverty levels contibute to gun murders?
Because the poverty level in Nepal or Bhutan is probably what would make
you P Diddy just because you have a bar of soap. What are their gun murder levels?

How about the State of New Jersey, Madsl...hmm?

With a population of 8.6 million....about twice that of Ireland ....gun murders: 246 per annum

That's a big UP on the population. How "poor" are the Joysey-ites? Lemme guess, Madsl....they got mad ghettoes, yo!

Now tell me how rich is Connecticut.....home of YALE and New England Blue Bloods? Must be better off than poxy little Ireland.

POPULATION: 3.6 million. Gun Murders in 2010: 97


Ooooh that poverty benchmark....or whatever it is you try to use as a bargaining chip.

MadsL

MonaPizza wrote: »

And why are you bringing up poverty levels?
Are you saying that poverty levels contibute to gun murders?
Because the poverty level in Nepal or Bhutan is probably what would make
you P Diddy just because you have a bar of soap. What are their gun murder levels?

Nepal had a murder rate of 2.8, Bhutan is weird one, at 1.0 but then it is ranked eighth happiest nation on earth.

Do you really think poverty and murder don't have a correlation?

http://cdn1.globalissues.org/i/poverty/equalitytrust/income-inequality-homicides.gif

“The link between inequality and homicide rates has been shown in as many as 40 studies, and the differences are large: there are five-fold differences in murder rates between different countries related to inequality. The most important reason why violence is more common in more unequal societies is that it is often triggered by people feeling looked down, disrespected and loss of face.”

http://www.globalissues.org/article/4/poverty-around-the-world

meathstevie

paddy147 wrote: »

Watched it on Sky News....Tanks,armoured trucks and robots....austrian police take no sh1t from no one..:pac::D


What have the gardai got for a situation like this........a few clapped out garda cars a mobile phone or 2 and a maybe mars bar.:pac:

You'll find that the Garda toolshed is surprisingly well equipped. Light armoured vehicles ( granted not on tracks ), check, robot ( with some Defence Forces assistance ), check, appropriate firearms, check, air support, check, high end body armour, check, etc etc...don't underestimate good old AGS, you may find that they have plenty of tools and the skills to use them when the need arises.

MonaPizza

MadsL wrote: »

Nepal had a murder rate of 2.8, Bhutan is weird one, at 1.0 but then it is ranked eighth happiest nation on earth.

Do you really think poverty and murder don't have a correlation?

http://cdn1.globalissues.org/i/poverty/equalitytrust/income-inequality-homicides.gif



http://www.globalissues.org/article/4/poverty-around-the-world

We're talking GUN MURDER rates here, pal.

Nice try!

So now, you brought up a load of crap about poverty indices earlier on.
Can you correlate that rubbish to richer states that have a higher gun murder rate than Ireland's 5.5% poverty rate
that you quickly jumped upon?

Explain.

MadsL

MonaPizza wrote: »

We're talking GUN MURDER rates here, pal.

Nice try!

So now, you brought up a load of crap about poverty indices earlier on.
Can you correlate that rubbish to richer states that have a higher gun murder rate than Ireland's 5.5% poverty rate
that you quickly jumped upon?

Explain.

Income inequality is one potential correlation as posted above, you did read my post?

If you don't murder someone with a gun you don't murder them at all...interesting fallacy.

MonaPizza

Now Madsl,

The population of California is about 39/40 million
The population of Spain is about 46/47 million.

The gun murders statistics for California in 2010 are: 1257
The gun murders statistics for Spain in 2010 are: 67

Is California RICHER than Spain? You bet, Madsl!

So what was that caper about poverty that you brought up?

Let's pick a US state (I recommend Arizona) and then try to find a country where LESS people have died by the gun (warzones don't count!)

MadsL

MonaPizza wrote: »

How about the State of New Jersey, Madsl...hmm?

With a population of 8.6 million....about twice that of Ireland ....gun murders: 246 per annum

That's a big UP on the population. How "poor" are the Joysey-ites? Lemme guess, Madsl....they got mad ghettoes, yo!

Now tell me how rich is Connecticut.....home of YALE and New England Blue Bloods? Must be better off than poxy little Ireland.

POPULATION: 3.6 million. Gun Murders in 2010: 97


Ooooh that poverty benchmark....or whatever it is you try to use as a bargaining chip.

That's a lot of spelling changes...so your edited post.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/09/new-jersey-poverty_n_3894503.html

9.7% is the poverty rate in Connecticut- almost twice Ireland's rate - do you even look this stuff up before posting?

MadsL

MonaPizza wrote: »

Now Madsl,

The population of California is about 39/40 million
The population of Spain is about 46/47 million.

The gun murders statistics for California in 2010 are: 1257
The gun murders statistics for Spain in 2010 are: 67

Is California RICHER than Spain? You bet, Madsl!

So what was that caper about poverty that you brought up?

Let's pick a US state (I recommend Arizona) and then try to find a country where LESS people have died by the gun (warzones don't count!)

You still haven't read my posts.

Go have a look at income inequality rates as I posted earlier -Does California have massive income inequality - oh hell yeah.

MadsL

Studies have shown that poverty and income are powerful predictors of homicide and violent crime. We hypothesized that the effect of the growing gap between the rich and poor is mediated through an undermining of social cohesion, or social capital, and that decreased social capital is in turn associated with increased firearm homicide and violent crime. Social capital was measured by the weighted responses to two items from the U.S. General Social Survey: the per capita density of membership in voluntary groups in each state; and the level of social trust, as gauged by the proportion of residents in each state who believed that "most people would take advantage of you if they got the chance". Age-standardized firearm homicide rates for the years 1987-1991 and firearm robbery and assault incidence rates for years 1991-1994 were obtained for each of the 50 U.S. states. Income inequality was strongly correlated with firearm violent crime (firearm homicide, r = 0.76) as well as the measures of social capital: per capita group membership (r = -0.40) and lack of social trust (r = 0.73). In turn, both social trust (firearm homicide, r = 0.83) and group membership (firearm homicide, r = -0.49) were associated with firearm violent crime. These relationships held when controlling for poverty and a proxy variable for access to firearms. The profound effects of income inequality and social capital, when controlling for other factors such as poverty and firearm availability, on firearm violent crime indicate that policies that address these broader, macro-social forces warrant serious consideration.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9683374

osarusan

Just wondering, has anybody disputed the argument that areas with lower levels of income/higher levels of poverty have a higher crime rate?

MadsL

osarusan wrote: »

Just wondering, has anybody disputed the argument that areas with lower levels of income/higher levels of poverty have a higher crime rate?

Look at the graph I posted - Japan with lower levels of income inequality has very little murders whereas the USA is off the chart on both counts.

osarusan

Yeah, I saw that.

I agree that it's wrong to just find 2 similar populations and compare gun crimes without taking other factors, such as poverty, into account.


@Mona Pizza, you're embarrassing yourself.

P.Walnuts

MadsL wrote: »

Look at the graph I posted - Japan with lower levels of income inequality has very little murders whereas the USA is off the chart on both counts.

I agree with your posts that income equality would correlate with violent crime, I think that would be fairly well established...

But if your trying to push that's its income inequality and not gun culture/availability of firearms that is the major driving force of the USA's gun homicides then I would have to strongly disagree

MadsL

P.Walnuts wrote: »

I agree with your posts that income equality would correlate with violent crime, I think that would be fairly well established...

But if your trying to push that's its income inequality and not gun culture/availability of firearms that is the major driving force of the USA's gun homicides then I would have to strongly disagree

The US is 31st out of 34 in OECD countries ranked on Income Disparity. Not a hope that if guns disappeared tomorrow in the US that vilent crime would drop,

Anyway I have a beer here and going off com.

P.Walnuts

MadsL wrote: »

The US is 31st out of 34 in OECD countries ranked on Income Disparity. Not a hope that if guns disappeared tomorrow in the US that vilent crime would drop,

Anyway I have a beer here and going off com.

All violent crime mightn't drop, but gun crime sure as hell would.

MonaPizza

MadsL wrote: »

You still haven't read my posts.

Go have a look at income inequality rates as I posted earlier -Does California have massive income inequality - oh hell yeah.

You brought up income inequality.
I brought up GUN MURDER rates.

I don't want to hear about income inequality.
There's a massive disparity between those who live in Mayfair in London and those who live in the back-end of Grimsby, just as there is a huge difference between those who live in Martha's Vineyard and those who live in Wood Island, Boston.

Gun murders in the US .... no matter how rich or poor the state, outstrip by nearly 15 to 1 if not more most european countries.

What are the gun murder stats for Japan? Australia? Singapore?

Japan has a population of I think about 150 million and still Californians are shot dead, more in one day than the Japanese in one year.

In 2008 America had 12,000 firearm-related homicides.
Japan had 11

But you know something....you guys are right. Stats don't mean sh1t!


japan..pop: 128 million

osarusan

MonaPizza wrote: »

You brought up income inequality.
I brought up GUN MURDER rates.

I don't want to hear about income inequality.

You can't simply reject a link between poverty and gun crime because it doesn't suit your argument.

You can't say that gun crime is purely the result of high gun ownership rates. If it was, Switzerland and Finland (for example), with quite high levels of gun ownership, would have much higher gun crime rates than they do.

I'd apply the same argument to anybody claiming that one single factor is the only factor in levels of gun crime.

Manic Moran

P.Walnuts wrote: »

But if your trying to push that's its income inequality and not gun culture/availability of firearms that is the major driving force of the USA's gun homicides then I would have to strongly disagree

This may surprise you. As the researchers conclude, it surprised them too.

http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf

"There is a compound assertion that (a) guns are uniquely available in the United States compared with other modern developed nations, which is
why (b) the United States has by far the highest murder rate.
Though these assertions have been endlessly repeated, statement
(b) is, in fact, false and statement (a) is substantially so"

Back on topic, it seems that the shooter basically snuck up on police manning checkpoints who were looking for him after he drove off.

osarusan

Manic Moran wrote: »

This may surprise you. As the researchers conclude, it surprised them too.

http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf

"There is a compound assertion that (a) guns are uniquely available in the United States compared with other modern developed nations, which is
why (b) the United States has by far the highest murder rate.
Though these assertions have been endlessly repeated, statement
(b) is, in fact, false and statement (a) is substantially so"

That papers only refers to murder rates, of ehich the US was not the highest at the time of writing. It indicates that murders will happen, even when guns are not widely available.

However, You can't extrapolate from the findings that people who shot other people to death would, in all cases, have found a substitute weapon with which to kill them.

Karl Stein

More guns = more firearm-related deaths.

The present data suggest that the number of guns per capita per country correlated strongly and was an independent predictor of firearm-related deaths.

The American Journal of Medicine

Manic Moran

However, You can't extrapolate from the findings that people who shot other people to death would, in all cases, have found a substitute weapon with which to kill them

Agreed. And the paper does not attempt to do so. All it points out is that there is no particular correlation to murder rates and legal firearm ownership.

Charlie Rock wrote: »

More guns = more firearm-related deaths.

A point specifically addressed in the study I linked to above:

One study asserts that Americans are more likely to be shot
to death than people in the world’s other 35 wealthier nations.
While this is literally true, it is irrelevant—except,
perhaps to people terrified not of death per se but just death
by gunshot. A fact that should be of greater concern—but
which the study fails to mention—is that per capita murder
overall is only half as frequent in the United States as in several
other nations where gun murder is rarer, but murder by
strangling, stabbing, or beating is much more frequent.

Why is the manner of particular concern? Should one feel better about oneself that they were bludgeoned to death and not shot?

NuckingFacker

It's probably just me that was wondering what an AAR was then.. if it's a dramatic one, is it an OOH AAR? My best guess is after action report.. gotta love those acronyms. Also Austria can be quite violent, they are a bit like the hungarians, short fuses..

Karl Stein

Manic Moran wrote: »

Why is the manner of particular concern? Should one feel better about oneself that they were bludgeoned to death and not shot?

I'd imagine it's easier to kill with a gun than kill with a knife or hammer for the average non-psychopathic person.

I could imagine shooting a gravely injured animal but I don't think I'd kill one with a hammer.

DrumSteve

Yeah that thing in Austria that this thread was originally about... thats ****ed up.

osarusan

Manic Moran wrote: »

Agreed. And the paper does not attempt to do so. All it points out is that there is no particular correlation to murder rates and legal firearm ownership.

It kind of does though.

As the respective examples of Luxembourg and Russia suggest, (39) individuals who commit violent crimes will either find guns despite severe controls or will find other weapons to use.

Just because there are high murder rates in places where the availability of guns is limited, people (the authors of the paper) cannot make the argument that a high level of availability of guns isn't a factor in the murder rates where guns are available.

Manic Moran

Just because there are high murder rates in places where the availability of guns is limited, people (the authors of the paper) cannot make the argument that a high level of availability of guns isn't a factor in the murder rates where guns are available.

No, and they don't try to. I don't know if anyone can prove or disprove that statement, but they do point out that nobody has managed to prove it yet.

Nevertheless, the burden
of proof rests on the proponents of the more guns equal
more death and fewer guns equal less death mantra, especially
since they argue public policy ought to be based on
that mantra. To bear that burden would at the very least
require showing that a large number of nations with more
guns have more death and that nations that have imposed
stringent gun controls have achieved substantial reductions
in criminal violence (or suicide). But those correlations are
not observed when a large number of nations are compared
across the world.

They point out, (as has been mentioned before) that just because guns are legal does not mean that there will be blood on the streets, and that there can be plenty of killings even when guns are totally banned.

A thought one may make from that is that perhaps one had better be looking at factors other than firearms to attempt to find the significant causes of murder rates and how to most effectively reduce them.

P.Walnuts

Manic Moran wrote: »

This may surprise you. As the researchers conclude, it surprised them too.

http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf

"There is a compound assertion that (a) guns are uniquely available in the United States compared with other modern developed nations, which is
why (b) the United States has by far the highest murder rate.
Though these assertions have been endlessly repeated, statement
(b) is, in fact, false and statement (a) is substantially so"

Back on topic, it seems that the shooter basically snuck up on police manning checkpoints who were looking for him after he drove off.

You do realise that one study coming to a conclusion doesn't actually make that conclusion true?

People seem to think that writing a study/scientific paper suddenly makes that argument water tight. When in fact the most gratuitous of pseudo science has papers and studies written about them all the time.

Oh look I found another study that says the opposite of what you do. Could only link Abstract and Conclusion as its behind a paywall I think.

From the American Journal of Public Health

"The Relationship Between Gun Ownership and Firearm Homicide Rates in the United States, 1981–2010"

Results. Gun ownership was a significant predictor of firearm homicide rates (incidence rate ratio = 1.009; 95% confidence interval = 1.004, 1.014). This model indicated that for each percentage point increase in gun ownership, the firearm homicide rate increased by 0.9%.

Conclusions. We observed a robust correlation between higher levels of gun ownership and higher firearm homicide rates. Although we could not determine causation, we found that states with higher rates of gun ownership had disproportionately large numbers of deaths from firearm-related homicides. (Am J Public Health. Published online ahead of print September 12, 2013: e1–e8. doi:10.2105/AJPH.2013.301409)

Son Of A Vidic

49 Posts in and I'm still trying to find an actual post that deals with, discusses or analyses the sequence of events of what happened in Austria.

MadsL

MonaPizza wrote: »

You brought up income inequality.
I brought up GUN MURDER rates.

Given the vast differences in gun laws around the world it makes more sense to look at murder rates - or are you contending that murder would cease if guns were removed?

I don't want to hear about income inequality.

You don't want to hear that there is a strong statistical correlation between income inequality and murder? As shown by a number of studies?

There's a massive disparity between those who live in Mayfair in London and those who live in the back-end of Grimsby, just as there is a huge difference between those who live in Martha's Vineyard and those who live in Wood Island, Boston.

Gun murders in the US .... no matter how rich or poor the state, outstrip by nearly 15 to 1 if not more most european countries.

We are the 99% - ring a bell to you? Which country in the world has one of the highest levels of income inequality?

What are the gun murder stats for Japan? Australia? Singapore?

Japan has a population of I think about 150 million and still Californians are shot dead, more in one day than the Japanese in one year.

In 2008 America had 12,000 firearm-related homicides.
Japan had 11

If you look at the graph I posted you will see rates for Japan and the US compared. Japan has a very low level of income inequality. US a very high rate. Now look at the relative homicide rate.
http://cdn1.globalissues.org/i/poverty/equalitytrust/income-inequality-homicides.gif

Population numbers are irrelevant.