Cheating Butcher

dipdip

Hi there. I am looking for a bit of advice on how to proceed.

I am living in the UK having just moved from Ireland. I found a local craft butcher who offers a deal of 6 items for £20 - 1lb of mince, 1lb of pork etc. etc.

When I got home I found that he had stiffed me to the tune of 50g on every item except one - and that one was excess to the 6 items, and was sold by weight. In this case I had asked for half a pound (227g) and he gave me 321g. Of course I was charged for this.

I have written to him to complain and there has been no response.

I am annoyed about this because he is cheating poor people in a poor area. Is there anything I can do? Surely this is illegal?

Thanks for your advice.

snubbleste

You can complain to the Consumer Authority
http://www.consumerhelp.ie/report-a-business

dipdip

Great. I will look for the UK equivalent.

SCOOP 64

Fairplay to you for spotting it.

dipdip

I like to cook so I have a good eye for weight. I could see that the amounts he was weighing out were small so I checked for myself when I got home. They weren't pre-packaged - he purposely supplied 400g of each item which he weighed out in front of me instead of 454. It is so disappointing. He is basically on my street and gives a spiel about knowing how hard it is to buy good quality food on a budget in his publicity. Pity.

mlumley

Trading standards officer at your local council is the place to go for help.

ABajaninCork

Your local Trading Standards is the place to go. They'll come down on him like a ton of bricks!

emeldc

How do you know your 10 bob scales is right and his €1k scales is wrong.

Fred Swanson

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dipdip

I don't think his scales are wrong. I think he is knowingly cheating his customers.

My scales of course is not impervious to making mistakes. But if I put a half a pound of butter on it, it weighs 227g.

ABajaninCork

When you get on to TS, THEY will check his scales. Then there is no argument.

My Mum was taken like that in London, years ago. She thought nothing of it until she read in the local rag that the greengrocer she used was done for cheating his customers in the same manner!

rubadub

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

It could be, and the error is not always linear.

So if a half pound is 227g it doesn't mean a pound will be correct. You should always verify with the closest thing you can in weight to it.

A pint of room temp tap water is 568ml and will be about 568grams, not including the glass of course!

TBoneMan

I caught out a craft butcher in Ireland for the same thing...

i order quarter pounder burgers for a BBQ but when i got home they looked a bit thin,he had given me 100g burgers instead of 114g ... big difference...

I confronted him in the shop and got him to weight them up in front of customers...he was speechless

Uaru

14g is hardly a big difference. It's very time consuming making burgers and most butchers will weigh them out with 10g give or take either way. They would be there for a month trying to do a batch at exactly 114g! That's a new level of scabby making a show of yourself over 14g of mince.

The lad in England definitely sounds like he's taking the piss. Lots of people do go home and weigh everything themselves so I'm surprised he hasn't been caught out sooner.

Fred Swanson

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rubadub

Uaru wrote: »

14g is hardly a big difference.

Sounded like they got several, and all were under.

You would not expect all to be 114g exactly, but there should be as many over as under if he is genuinely not trying to fleece people.

In tesco I have often got very oversized packs of chicken, i.e. they state 500g and I take a look at a few and pick the biggest and it could be 600g.

ABajaninCork

Uaru wrote: »

14g is hardly a big difference. It's very time consuming making burgers and most butchers will weigh them out with 10g give or take either way. They would be there for a month trying to do a batch at exactly 114g! That's a new level of scabby making a show of yourself over 14g of mince.

I don't understand your mentality. Why is it 'scabby' and 'making a show of yourself' to expect to receive what you PAID FOR?? If the butcher is selling the meat short, then he is stealing! Don't you understand that?

It's hardly the customer's problem if the butcher is 'there for a month' weighing out the correct amount of meat. That's his business. That's what he's paid for.

Like Fred S says. A small difference might be OK. A 10% difference most certainly is not.

Cabaal

Uaru wrote: »

14g is hardly a big difference. /QUOTE]

Its 10%
If you went into a shop and bought your cigarettes...say a pack of 20 and when you went home you found they sold you 18 you'd be pissed off right?

Uaru

It would be very unlikely the butcher went out of his way to measure each one at exactly 100g, that would be stupidly time consuming to save a few cents. Most likely some were over and some were under and the poster could have been unlucky in the ones he got. It could also have been an apprentice using the burger press and could have lost some out the side.

Uaru

Cabaal wrote: »

Uaru wrote: »

14g is hardly a big difference. /QUOTE]

Its 10%
If you went into a shop and bought your cigarettes...say a pack of 20 and when you went home you found they sold you 18 you'd be pissed off right?

You can't compare something pre packed in a factory to something made in house. Do you think when you go to a restaurant and order an 8 oz steak that it weighs exactly 8 oz?

ABajaninCork

It's generally understood that the weight of the steak is the pre-cooked weight. Of course, it'll weigh a little less when cooked!!

Uaru

It also won't weigh 8oz before it's cooked because it would be impossible to cut each steak at exactly 8oz.

Obviously when you're buying from a butcher the vast majority of items will be weighed individually and you will be charged whatever is on the scales. If you ask for a pound of mince it will never be exactly a pound but you will be charged the amount by weight. This is impossible with burgers because they would fall apart. Next time you buy burgers from anywhere weigh them and I can guarantee you it will be about 10g either way on most of them.

bobmalooka

Uaru wrote: »

It also won't weigh 8oz before it's cooked because it would be impossible to cut each steak at exactly 8oz.

Obviously when you're buying from a butcher the vast majority of items will be weighed individually and you will be charged whatever is on the scales. If you ask for a pound of mince it will never be exactly a pound but you will be charged the amount by weight. This is impossible with burgers because they would fall apart. Next time you buy burgers from anywhere weigh them and I can guarantee you it will be about 10g either way on most of them.

Please tell us why burgers fall apart when placed on a weighing scales?

the ones I get manage to get bagged, driven home, unbagged, and fried/barbequed without falling apart

Uaru

bobmalooka wrote: »

Please tell us why burgers fall apart when placed on a weighing scales?

the ones I get manage to get bagged, driven home, unbagged, and fried/barbequed without falling apart

Depends on the burger and how it's made I suppose. Most butchers tend to pre pack them though as they are more delicate, stick to things and each other so it's easier to pack them.

Uaru

If the poster bought single weighed burgers and they were 100g but was charged for 114g that's a different story altogether.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Uaru wrote: »

If the poster bought single weighed burgers and they were 100g but was charged for 114g that's a different story altogether.

That's what is unclear. My "craft" butcher sells what are commonly referred to as quarter pounders but they are not sold on a per item basis as the total is weighed and charged accordingly.

Fred Swanson

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Guest0000

Uaru wrote: »

It also won't weigh 8oz before it's cooked because it would be impossible to cut each steak at exactly 8oz.

Obviously when you're buying from a butcher the vast majority of items will be weighed individually and you will be charged whatever is on the scales. If you ask for a pound of mince it will never be exactly a pound but you will be charged the amount by weight. This is impossible with burgers because they would fall apart. Next time you buy burgers from anywhere weigh them and I can guarantee you it will be about 10g either way on most of them.

The ops point is that it is a special offer on a set amount of cuts, at a said weight, the cuts are not individually weighed, so you won't be paying the displayed amount, if they were, chances are they would be as cheap to buy in single items,
Kinda reminds me of the guy selling bags of logs for 3.00 a bag or 6 for twenty......

draiochtanois

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rubadub

Uaru wrote: »

If you ask for a pound of mince it will never be exactly a pound but you will be charged the amount by weight. This is impossible with burgers because they would fall apart.

They can weigh the final bag to double check.

The poster said they looked thin, if a regular punter can visually spot they are thin then I would expect a butcher to have noticed too, they should be well used to eyeballing weights.

Uaru wrote: »

Next time you buy burgers from anywhere weigh them and I can guarantee you it will be about 10g either way on most of them.

But it sounds like this is what the poster did, and they were under. They did not say its one burger, it was burgerS for a BBQ, so could have been a lot.

Uaru

Brooke Yellow Jell-o wrote: »

That's what is unclear. My "craft" butcher sells what are commonly referred to as quarter pounders but they are not sold on a per item basis as the total is weighed and charged accordingly.

That's probably the best way to do it as you are paying the exact weight for what you are getting.

It's the same with steaks, the butcher cuts a steak, lays it our for display, you choose which one you want, they weigh it and away you go.

There's no way in hell that each 8oz steak weighs 8oz, it would be impossible to cut that consistently off a piece of meat. Think about the logistics of it.

Uaru

Guest0000 wrote: »

The ops point is that it is a special offer on a set amount of cuts, at a said weight, the cuts are not individually weighed, so you won't be paying the displayed amount, if they were, chances are they would be as cheap to buy in single items,
Kinda reminds me of the guy selling bags of logs for 3.00 a bag or 6 for twenty......

I agreed with the op.

So everyone reckons that the onus is on the butcher to ensure that the burgers are a minimum weight. So this is going to lead to a longer production time which costs money, or making sure there is more meat in the burgers which costs money. Guess who's going to pay the extra cost either way?

For the sake of 8c or whatever I would rather take the risk that the odd burger I buy might be 10g under to be honest.

TBoneMan

Uaru wrote: »

14g is hardly a big difference. It's very time consuming making burgers and most butchers will weigh them out with 10g give or take either way. They would be there for a month trying to do a batch at exactly 114g! That's a new level of scabby making a show of yourself over 14g of mince.

The lad in England definitely sounds like he's taking the piss. Lots of people do go home and weigh everything themselves so I'm surprised he hasn't been caught out sooner.

Uara, not only do you have a poor grasp of weights & measures, you obviously don't run a business.

100g vs 114g is a 12.5% difference. 3.5oz vs 4oz. I had a bbq for 50 people and bought 60 burgers & buns for €60. When I weight the bags, in total , I was left short almost 2lbs( 5.50euro at lean mince price)

Any butcher shop that makes their own burgers and sausages use a filler. These have plates(2oz 4oz 6oz 100g 150g etc) that form the burger thereby allowing the user to knock out 800-1000 burgers to the hour.

In my local chipper they have an unusual 3oz burger that the local butcher makes...never more than 3g +\- from the 85g according to the owner.

I get striploins and tbones from the same butcher now and he is always within an onze on a 16oz tbone.

foggy_lad

Uaru wrote: »

That's probably the best way to do it as you are paying the exact weight for what you are getting.

It's the same with steaks, the butcher cuts a steak, lays it our for display, you choose which one you want, they weigh it and away you go.

There's no way in hell that each 8oz steak weighs 8oz, it would be impossible to cut that consistently off a piece of meat. Think about the logistics of it.

THere was a tv program on the BBC a while ago about how supermarkets source their foodstuffs including their prepacked meat and it showed a production line for steaks where all the butchers eployed could cut a steak from any piece of meat and get it within 5grams of the advertised weight just by sight! THis is their bread and butter and it is what all butchers should be able to do consistently or they should look at alternative employment.

Uaru

TBoneMan wrote: »

Uara, not only do you have a poor grasp of weights & measures, you obviously don't run a business.

100g vs 114g is a 12.5% difference. 3.5oz vs 4oz. I had a bbq for 50 people and bought 60 burgers & buns for €60. When I weight the bags, in total , I was left short almost 2lbs( 5.50euro at lean mince price)

Any butcher shop that makes their own burgers and sausages use a filler. These have plates(2oz 4oz 6oz 100g 150g etc) that form the burger thereby allowing the user to knock out 800-1000 burgers to the hour.

In my local chipper they have an unusual 3oz burger that the local butcher makes...never more than 3g +\- from the 85g according to the owner.

I get striploins and tbones from the same butcher now and he is always within an onze on a 16oz tbone.

Butchers have a burger press in a few sizes but each piece of mince has to be weighed separately or guessed by the butcher, usually the apprentice for that job. They certainly aren't churning out a thousand burgers per hour and they will also never be exactly 114g. Your 5.50 is also in no way a fair representation of how much you were left short. The cost of your burgers at a cheap price on mince would be 80 quid without the buns if you want to spin it that way. I'd say you we're left about €2 short and still got a great deal from your butcher.

I said you were left about 8c short per burger so I wasn't too far off without knowing how much your butcher was charging. Obviously with 60 burgers it adds up. Out of interest did you preorder 60 burgers in advance at a set fee?

I'm not a butcher but I know some and have had this discussion with them before.

What was his explanation?

Uaru

foggy_lad wrote: »

THere was a tv program on the BBC a while ago about how supermarkets source their foodstuffs including their prepacked meat and it showed a production line for steaks where all the butchers eployed could cut a steak from any piece of meat and get it within 5grams of the advertised weight just by sight! THis is their bread and butter and it is what all butchers should be able to do consistently or they should look at alternative employment.

10g either way, as I said.

emeldc

foggy_lad wrote: »

THere was a tv program on the BBC a while ago about how supermarkets source their foodstuffs including their prepacked meat and it showed a production line for steaks where all the butchers eployed could cut a steak from any piece of meat and get it within 5grams of the advertised weight just by sight! THis is their bread and butter and it is what all butchers should be able to do consistently or they should look at alternative employment.

Uaru wrote: »

10g either way, as I said.

TBoneMan

Uaru wrote: »

Butchers have a burger press in a few sizes but each piece of mince has to be weighed separately or guessed by the butcher, usually the apprentice for that job. They certainly aren't churning out a thousand burgers per hour and they will also never be exactly 114g. Your 5.50 is also in no way a fair representation of how much you were left short. The cost of your burgers at a cheap price on mince would be 80 quid without the buns if you want to spin it that way. I'd say you we're left about €2 short and still got a great deal from your butcher.

I said you were left about 8c short per burger so I wasn't too far off without knowing how much your butcher was charging. Obviously with 60 burgers it adds up. Out of interest did you preorder 60 burgers in advance at a set fee?

I'm not a butcher but I know some and have had this discussion with them before.

What was his explanation?

Ordered 1 week ahead.
His explanation was to stand there and say nothing...he knew full well he had been caught.

A filler is a hydraulic piston that forces meat through a chamber to form sausages and burgers. The filler plate determines the size of the burger and therfore there is no weighting of meat. And so the weight will always be uniform.

I had a family gathering in july this year and my current butchers burgers are made this way. 114g every time :-) he sells 6 100% beef burgers for € 5 ...gluten free too

Your costing of lean mince beef at €1 per lb tells me you don't have a clue what your talking about. 80quid for 60burgers :-) I must start selling door to door in your area ... easy money

Uaru

TBoneMan wrote: »

Ordered 1 week ahead.
His explanation was to stand there and say nothing...he knew full well he had been caught.

A filler is a hydraulic piston that forces meat through a chamber to form sausages and burgers. The filler plate determines the size of the burger and therfore there is no weighting of meat. And so the weight will always be uniform.

I had a family gathering in july this year and my current butchers burgers are made this way. 114g every time :-) he sells 6 100% beef burgers for € 5 ...gluten free too

Your costing of lean mince beef at €1 per lb tells me you don't have a clue what your talking about. 80quid for 60burgers :-) I must start selling door to door in your area ... easy money

That's a ridiculously cheap price for 6 burgers though. The vast majority around me a selling them for €1.20 ~ €1.50 a pop.

You're butcher may be using that device but I know two lads in two different butchers that have nothing of the sort.

TBoneMan

Uaru wrote: »

That's a ridiculously cheap price for 6 burgers though. The vast majority around me a selling them for €1.20 ~ €1.50 a pop.

You're butcher may be using that device but I know two lads in two different butchers that have nothing of the sort.

1&1/2 lb of lean mince beef is €4.10 so that allows more than 20% margin to make the burgers.
My butcher may be a step above in terms of production, because they have their own farm and abattoir. It means they would have a lot of lean mince to clear each week to get a good base of primal cuts.