Large event public transport in Dublin

Davidth88

Guys,

Leading on from Flightfest on Sat , I have to pose the question . Why does public transport seem to cope so badly / be totally surprised by large events in Dublin.

My experience , I drove to the Red Cow P+R at about 12:30 ish , to be greeted by a queue to get into the car park and masses of people .... so I basically said ' sod that ' and drove in.

I drove the Luas route along the canal right down until the luas leaves the road to go to St James. ( I then parked up near St Stephen's green no hassle ) .

I saw no townbound luas from the time I left the M50 up to the Car Park , and along the route at all. It was clear to me that they were running a std Sunday service , I have driven this route in similar traffic on a week day and you would normally see 2-3 trams.

The amount of people who are saying they waited an hour for a luas / could not get on the trains etc it's not an isolated thing.

What is the problem here ? This event was well flagged , the radio ads said use public transport but no one seems to have told the public transport providers that 100k people might want to get into town.

I had a similar experience for the Tall Ships , that time I went by bus lucky I boarded at the far terminus because the bus was full by the second stop and basically didn't stop all the way into town going past crowds of people at bus stops.

charlietheminxx

I could not agree more. Flightfest expected crowds of 100,000 people and was sponsored by all the transport links in Dublin. How did anyone think a standard Sunday service would be suitable?

When I saw the crowds at bus stops leaving town, I went to see a movie, just to let it die down a bit.

cdebru

48 hour week it is so restrictive that it is not possible like in years gone by to just ask people to come in and work a day off.
On top of that weekend services have been cut back since the downturn started, you don't notice it most weekends until something like flightfest happens.
Cut backs in staff levels means there are not spare drivers available I don't think DB has hired any new drivers in 5 years.
Extra costs of employing staff to work on Sunday may not be recouped at the fare box.

Possibly regulation, I don't know if transport companies can throw on extra services without approval ??

Polar101

I took the bus in and out, didn't really have problems in either direction - I was expecting it to be much worse.

n0brain3r

I caught the train from Maynooth about 12.20 and was on the last of 3 services that left within 30 minutes of each other. One Sligo so direct to Connolly, a Pearse bound commuter and Connolly Special had loads of room and the carriage didn't fill up until Ashtown or thereabouts.

The Luas on the other hand was a shambles the real time sign was advising the next tram was for the wrong destination e.g. At Busaras is advised the next tram was for the Point when it was in fact going to Connolly so people boarded only to be brought around the corner to walk back again.

I got on one tram and got off again as the driver and crowd control guy where screaming at each other and it was upsetting my kids!

Why where they running to Connolly at all surely every available tram should of run to the Point. I ended up walking down and was passed by 2 trams the whole time it took to walk down with 2 kids in tow. Given the event was about to begin you'd think the trams would be queuing up behind one another.

ardmacha

Every year on All Ireland sundays I see buses in Dublin passing by full at bus stops when a couple of extra buses at the appropriate time would make all the difference. Leaving aside of course the inability to get a train on that day.

This kind of thing discredits public transport. There are calls to use public transport, people try to do so and public transport does not want their business. Such people are not going to be very positive towards further investment in services when the "service" ignores obvious demand.

mikemac1

All Ireland Sunday and the game was well over I went to Busaras Luas stop around 6:30

There was an automatic voice announcement every 2 minutes or so that Busaras was not being served

Makes sense I suppose, they do the same on Landsdowne Rd for the dart on match days. Disperse people around a few stops

I walked up to Georges Dock,got the Luas and on we go to stop at Busaras

Did someone not bother to turn off the voice announcement?

Not a huge deal, just sloppy

markpb

n0brain3r wrote: »

Why were they running to Connolly at all surely every available tram should of run to the Point.

They did run full length for part of the day - I suspect the thousands of people walking along the Luas lines between Connolly and the Point made it unsafe as well as causing service delays on the rest of the line. When I walked along Abbey st around midday, there were seven outbound trams running back to back (literally) but inbound trams were almost ten minutes apart.

Davidth88

markpb wrote: »

They did run full length for part of the day - I suspect the thousands of people walking along the Luas lines between Connolly and the Point made it unsafe as well as causing service delays on the rest of the line. When I walked along Abbey st around midday, there were seven outbound trams running back to back (literally) but inbound trams were almost ten minutes apart.

hmmmmm I wonder if they were caught out by the fact that a lot of people left it late to decide to go

I for example was watching the weather carefully because I suspected it could be cancelled , I only decided to leave the house at 12:00 because it was clear a weather break was coming ( thanks to the thread on the Aviation forum where people in the west were reporting clearer weather ).

It explains where all the trams were .... at the wrong end of the line.

road_high

Went to Flighfest myself Sunday. Came up from Kilkenny in about 50 mins (driving, obviously!) to Red Cow Luas P&R. Never again basically...

Got the LUAS in from the Red Cow. First and last time I will ever do that for any event... Did they actually know such a big event was on, seeing as they sponsored it??
Waited for an hour to board a tram out there, much of the time spent queing for car park ticket, then lengthy queue for the tram tickets (not enough machines?) and then more time spent in the pouring rain waiting for an actual tram with space to board. Spoiled the day for me, and was a pity i didn't keep going and just park in town , sincerely doubt it would have taken any longer than the above and we would have been a lot drier and more comfortable.

cdebru

ardmacha wrote: »

Every year on All Ireland sundays I see buses in Dublin passing by full at bus stops when a couple of extra buses at the appropriate time would make all the difference. Leaving aside of course the inability to get a train on that day.

This kind of thing discredits public transport. There are calls to use public transport, people try to do so and public transport does not want their business. Such people are not going to be very positive towards further investment in services when the "service" ignores obvious demand.

That is 2 Sundays out of the year you can't plan your capacity based on 2 Sundays, it has to take into account the other 50 Sundays when they run fairly empty. Your staffing levels are based on the over all demand over the year not abnormal demand based around special events.
I heard the same complaints yesterday about some coffee shop in town didn't have enough staff, well you can't staff any business based on the one day there is 150,000 people outside the door , public transport is no different.

Losty Dublin

When you have 100,000+ people going to any event then it follows that every tram and bus and train is going to be busy, even with specials thrown on. It is easy to say so after the event and yes the weather left it very much a last minute call for people but most people left their travel till the last minute; they always do in this country.

Cookie_Monster

cdebru wrote: »

That is 2 Sundays out of the year you can't plan your capacity based on 2 Sundays, it has to take into account the other 50 Sundays when they run fairly empty. Your staffing levels are based on the over all demand over the year not abnormal demand based around special events.
I heard the same complaints yesterday about some coffee shop in town didn't have enough staff, well you can't staff any business based on the one day there is 150,000 people outside the door , public transport is no different.

but you can plan to have staff for those two sundays, the trams are there, the demand is obviously there. any business in the area will plan exactly the same if they have any sense and take advantage of it.

LXFlyer

From what I am told regarding LUAS, firstly, the Gardaí instructed that trams be curtailed to Connolly, due to the crowds on Mayor Street. This unplanned closure would have created problems as the schedule would go out the window and trams/drivers ended up being in the wrong locations. I imagine that this had a serious knock on effect on the service.

Secondly, I understand that the LUAS did operate extra services - from what I understand they could not have operated any more if they had tried.

There were extra Irish Rail trains on all of the lines, including Kildare and DART, which were all in the journey planner. But remember too that extra trains require extra drivers, and you can't force drivers to work when they're rostered off!

The real problem on Sunday was that a very significant number of people left it to the last minute to decide to go into town, and in the case of the LUAS red line, they all went to the one place - Red Cow.

In contrast to these reports, I travelled into town on Sunday morning on my local bus, had a lovely brunch, a read of my paper and strolled down to the event with no difficulties whatsoever.

Davidth88

lxflyer wrote: »

In contrast to these reports, I travelled into town on Sunday morning on my local bus, had a lovely brunch, a read of my paper and strolled down to the event with no difficulties whatsoever.

TBH if I didn't have 2 kids in tow ( 7 and 2 ) I would have done the same

Interestingly the traffic wasn't too bad , no worse if not slightly better than a usual working day ( the route I took in anyway )

00112984

Anyone know if Cheeverstown P&R site was used by many vehicles on Sunday, or did everyone automatically go to Red Cow?

bmaxi

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

but you can plan to have staff for those two sundays, the trams are there, the demand is obviously there. any business in the area will plan exactly the same if they have any sense and take advantage of it.

I agree, it's like saying you can't plan for a birthday or Christmas. You've known for months they're going to happen, so why act surprised?
It's just another example of inept and unaccountable management.

n0brain3r

markpb wrote: »

They did run full length for part of the day - I suspect the thousands of people walking along the Luas lines between Connolly and the Point made it unsafe as well as causing service delays on the rest of the line. When I walked along Abbey st around midday, there were seven outbound trams running back to back (literally) but inbound trams were almost ten minutes apart.

Maybe the crowd had past by the time I got there because the only place I saw people on the lines was walking out of Connolly at the terminus. I walked easily along the footpath beside the line to the point. Glad to hear they did run trams so close together inbound but diverting to Connolly had them driving directly into the crowds coming from the trains. I suppose it stems down to a serious lack of crowd control on the approaches.

LXFlyer

Again - as far as I understand it, it was the Gardaí who insisted on terminating at Connolly.

This, similar to the plans that had been made for the Queen and Obama visits, was again a situation where plans had been made, only for them to be superseded by events on the day and the Gardaí insisting changes be made.

n0brain3r

Never said they didn't but around 13:00 it was the wrong thing to do anyway that wasn't what happened on the ground as 2 possibly 3 trams past me walking to the point

cdebru

bmaxi wrote: »

I agree, it's like saying you can't plan for a birthday or Christmas. You've known for months they're going to happen, so why act surprised?
It's just another example of inept and unaccountable management.

No it is nothing like that, over 60% of your staff would be rostered off that day, you can't just roster them on and even if you could it would mean you would have to roster them off on another day when you also need them.
So you are depending on people to volunteer,and that they can legally work that day without affecting your services on another day.
There is also the issue of cost it is very expensive to get people and the amount of people you need.
Also it is a city centre event which means you have to spread those extra resources city wide.

There were extra luas and buses on Sunday, but the amount you would really need is just not possible with the law and budget.

Thoie

lxflyer wrote: »

From what I am told regarding LUAS, firstly, the Gardaí instructed that trams be curtailed to Connolly, due to the crowds on Mayor Street. This unplanned closure would have created problems as the schedule would go out the window and trams/drivers ended up being in the wrong locations. I imagine that this had a serious knock on effect on the service.

Secondly, I understand that the LUAS did operate extra services - from what I understand they could not have operated any more if they had tried.

The trams were coming pretty quickly, but the information on where they were going fell down. We boarded at Heuston and planned on getting out at Spencer Dock. When the tram was underway we were told it was going to Connolly, so said we'd get out at Busaras and switch. Then were told it wasn't stopping at Busaras, so got out at Abbey St, and waited for the next tram marked as going to the Point. Which then stopped at Connolly. Once we rounded the corner it was obvious why the trams were stopping at Connolly (people all over the tracks), but the fact that the trams themselves, as well as the displays, were still advertising The Point added to the general confusion.

lxflyer wrote: »

There were extra Irish Rail trains on all of the lines, including Kildare and DART, which were all in the journey planner. But remember too that extra trains require extra drivers, and you can't force drivers to work when they're rostered off!

I was checking the Irish rail site for train times from Kildare (for an intermediate stop), and didn't see any extra trains listed at all - the trains I got in the end were normal Sunday schedule trains. There were no notices at either of the stations (where I boarded or Heuston) showing any extra trains. What time were the extra trains from Kildare, and were they stopping at the local stations in between?

LXFlyer

Thoie wrote: »

The trams were coming pretty quickly, but the information on where they were going fell down. We boarded at Heuston and planned on getting out at Spencer Dock. When the tram was underway we were told it was going to Connolly, so said we'd get out at Busaras and switch. Then were told it wasn't stopping at Busaras, so got out at Abbey St, and waited for the next tram marked as going to the Point. Which then stopped at Connolly. Once we rounded the corner it was obvious why the trams were stopping at Connolly (people all over the tracks), but the fact that the trams themselves, as well as the displays, were still advertising The Point added to the general confusion.

I was checking the Irish rail site for train times from Kildare (for an intermediate stop), and didn't see any extra trains listed at all - the trains I got in the end were normal Sunday schedule trains. There were no notices at either of the stations (where I boarded or Heuston) showing any extra trains. What time were the extra trains from Kildare, and were they stopping at the local stations in between?

I can't recall the extra times but I do believe that there was an extra train on the Kildare line - possibly from Newbridge.

As for the RTPI - at that stage the plans as such were thrown into disarray. The signs all feed off the tram ID which is pre-programmed with the tram destination.

I understand that the Gardaí insisted on the LUAS terminating at Connolly, which would have meant any trams already in service were on the system as going to where they were pre-programmed to.

The systems are great for normal operations, but when you end up with a completely fluid situation as happened on Sunday it becomes more difficult to handle. I suspect that given trams/drivers were now in completely the wrong locations, that the primary concern of the controllers was running a service at all (and how they were going to do it), and that RTPI signs moved down the pecking order.

Del2005

bmaxi wrote: »

I agree, it's like saying you can't plan for a birthday or Christmas. You've known for months they're going to happen, so why act surprised?
It's just another example of inept and unaccountable management.

With staffing cut to the bone and working hour restrictions it's not that easy. The companies have staff for their normal business needs and have scheduled their hours for that, if they put extra staff on for an event on Sunday then they'd have no staff for Monday and Monday is more important than Sunday.

In saying that the last time I used public transport to a major event was AC/DC in Punchestown which was a complete shambles both down and back, so now I'll just drive as after every major event there's always complaints about public transport and rarely any of traffic delays.

bikeman1

Is it really that much to ask that the Luas, Irish Rail, Dublin Bus, the Gardai, Dublin City Council and the organisers come together and plan for all eventualities and actual plan for a realistic scenario?

Irish Rail actually do very well for big event management and always get in extra staff, run extra and longer trains. Events at Lansdowne Road are testament to that. The cricket at Malahide and Bray Airshow were other events I was at which they did well on this year.

The luas deals with large volumes of people all at one time when a gig at the O2 Is finished.

It is these bad transport stories that keep people in their cars and away from public transport, when the opposite should happen.

bmaxi

cdebru wrote: »

No it is nothing like that, over 60% of your staff would be rostered off that day, you can't just roster them on and even if you could it would mean you would have to roster them off on another day when you also need them.
So you are depending on people to volunteer,and that they can legally work that day without affecting your services on another day.
There is also the issue of cost it is very expensive to get people and the amount of people you need.
Also it is a city centre event which means you have to spread those extra resources city wide.

There were extra luas and buses on Sunday, but the amount you would really need is just not possible with the law and budget.

What you're saying is, it is not possible for CIE to cater for large public events on any given day.
Most of the EU are subject to the same working time arrangements as we are, yet London was able to cope with the Olympics, Warsaw with the Euros etc. etc. etc.
I'm not doubting what you say, just that a little imagination and planning could have solved the issue.
Kudos also to AGS who couldn't manage to police the crowd, there'll be dozens of them scratching their arses around Croke Park next Sunday but they couldn't spare a few motorcycles to cruise up and down Mayor St.
Please God we never get the World Cup.

cdebru

bmaxi wrote: »

What you're saying is, it is not possible for CIE to cater for large public events on any given day.
Most of the EU are subject to the same working time arrangements as we are, yet London was able to cope with the Olympics, Warsaw with the Euros etc. etc. etc.
I'm not doubting what you say, just that a little imagination and planning could have solved the issue.
Kudos also to AGS who couldn't manage to police the crowd, there'll be dozens of them scratching their arses around Croke Park next Sunday but they couldn't spare a few motorcycles to cruise up and down Mayor St.
Please God we never get the World Cup.

Luas is not part of CIE which is what the OP was complaining about, the UK did not sign up to the EU work time directive, so they would not be under the same restrictions, also events like the olympics, world cup etc are staged over weeks with massive budgets, extra staff and vehicles are brought in on a temporary basis, completely different from a one day event that may or may not go ahead depending on the weather.
When DB has been involved in major events like tall ships, the Ryder cup etc they have done a great job, but their ability to cover extra events in the current climate are very limited.

cdebru

bikeman1 wrote: »

Is it really that much to ask that the Luas, Irish Rail, Dublin Bus, the Gardai, Dublin City Council and the organisers come together and plan for all eventualities and actual plan for a realistic scenario?

Irish Rail actually do very well for big event management and always get in extra staff, run extra and longer trains. Events at Lansdowne Road are testament to that. The cricket at Malahide and Bra
y Airshow were other events I was at which they did well on this year.

The luas deals with large volumes of people all at one time when a gig at the O2 Is finished.

It is these bad transport stories that keep people in their cars and away from public transport, when the opposite should happen.

So you expect there to be massive public transport provided on the one day of the year you might use it, and you expect that to have no impact on the provision of public transport on the Monday when the people who use it every day actually need it to get to work,school etc.

And who will pay for this ?

markpb

cdebru wrote: »

So you expect there to be massive public transport provided on the one day of the year you might use it, and you expect that to have no impact on the provision of public transport on the Monday when the people who use it every day actually need it to get to work,school etc. And who will pay for this ?

Public transport operators should know that these events can be a great advert for them. People who drive into work every other day of the year will take public transport into big events because they're told driving will be too awkward. If they have a good experience, there's a chance that some of them will stop driving to work and take public transport in the future. Or we could do it the way we always do and wring our hands and say that it's impossible and someone else fault.

Irish Rail seemed fine. Dublin Bus seemed fine. The main problem that I could see was Luas and that was down to bad event management and bad policing on the day. They should be looking at that and learning from their mistakes to see what can be improved for the next big event. For Luas, this means making sure that drivers can change the displays on the trams so people know where they're going. For the Gardai, this means keeping train lines clear of pedestrians.

LXFlyer

cdebru wrote: »

So you expect there to be massive public transport provided on the one day of the year you might use it, and you expect that to have no impact on the provision of public transport on the Monday when the people who use it every day actually need it to get to work,school etc.

And who will pay for this ?

I think it is not beyond the abilities of the organisations to get this right - the problem (certainly with the LUAS) was that the original plan had to be discarded due to the crowds, and that had a knock on effect.

Given that there are big events regularly held, maybe the RPA should look at having hand held ticket machines and staff available at Red Cow to reduce the queues.

listermint

00112984 wrote: »

Anyone know if Cheeverstown P&R site was used by many vehicles on Sunday, or did everyone automatically go to Red Cow?

It is my understanding that Cheeverstown P&R was used, and there was a large amount of cars that had their windows put through by undersireables.

despite the CCTV the guards werent interested and basically fobbed drivers off with 'we would need to keep the car for 3 days to get fingerprints' or you could just ring your insurance.