Dublin Bus overcharging schoolchild fares on Leap Card

maclek

My son started taking Dublin bus to school this term. We bought him a 12-15 leap card. I checked his account online today and about every third time he's being charged 90 cent instead of 70 cent.

I called up the leap card people and they basically said not their problem, Dublin bus problem. Spoke to Dublin bus and they said I have to take a screenshot of the leap card account and they will "investigate". I asked if there was anything he should say or do differently when he gets on the bus and they said they couldn't say until they investigate. All the charges are before 5pm so that's not the issue

I wonder if this is happening to pretty much everyone who has a 12 - 15 leap card? Sounds like a huge racket from Dublin bus, hoping no one checks their child's account or can't be arsed to get a refund.

mgs07

Not surprised one bit. Probably the same bus driver doing it everytime!! Either in spite that thats his job or on a power trip!! Absolutely disgraceful doing it to a child!! As if school fees aren't expense enough. If I were you I wouldn't let that go!!! All the money adds up!!

maclek

So you're saying that the driver has some ability to control that? Surely the system should just say child leap card, in school hours, 70 cent. That's madness to have to get the driver involved.

I'm certainly not going to let it go!

maclek

maclek wrote: »

Sounds like a huge racket from Dublin bus, hoping no one checks their child's account or can't be arsed to get a refund.

Sounds more like lazy bus drivers to me. I always look at the display until the driver charges, and correct him/her when it's wrong.

mgs07

ye they can charge more because when u swipe it at the machine at the bus driver u tell him where your going and he types in how much it is!!! probably just hoping you don't notice!! I'd certainly be surprised if it was an accident. Bus drivers have overcharged me a few times before, now I always check before I go so i'm not being ripped off!!!

coylemj

OP, if your son knows the fare then let him ask for that fare when he presents his Leap Card.

PeteK*

mgs07 wrote: »

Either in spite that thats his job

That's a ridiculous statement to make.

cdebru

PeteK* wrote: »

That's a ridiculous statement to make.

He has 4 posts and there is a distinctive theme to them so far.

cdebru

maclek wrote: »

My son started taking Dublin bus to school this term. We bought him a 12-15 leap card. I checked his account online today and about every third time he's being charged 90 cent instead of 70 cent.

I called up the leap card people and they basically said not their problem, Dublin bus problem. Spoke to Dublin bus and they said I have to take a screenshot of the leap card account and they will "investigate". I asked if there was anything he should say or do differently when he gets on the bus and they said they couldn't say until they investigate. All the charges are before 5pm so that's not the issue

I wonder if this is happening to pretty much everyone who has a 12 - 15 leap card? Sounds like a huge racket from Dublin bus, hoping no one checks their child's account or can't be arsed to get a refund.

Tell him to ask for the school fare, when he gets on, if he can ask him to look at the screen as it will show what fare he was charged, if it is incorrect he can ask the driver to correct it there and then.

foggy_lad

The latest thing to turn people and particularly parents off the leap card.

The leap crowd should be investigating this and sorting it out.

OP if you have to go in to dublin bus hq dont leave without getting your fare there and back paid for.

cdebru

foggy_lad wrote: »

The latest thing to turn people and particularly parents off the leap card.

The leap crowd should be investigating this and sorting it out.

OP if you have to go in to dublin bus hq dont leave without getting your fare there and back paid for.

No there is plenty more to turn people off the leap card, like standing waiting for 10 seconds for your card to be read, being called back because after your 10 second wait the ticket machine says bad read, no one has heard of your annual pass on your leap card and the ticket machine says unknown ticket. No beep so you know your transaction is complete, tiny screen so it is hard to see what you were charged.

Grandad99

maclek wrote: »

hoping no one checks their child's account or can't be arsed to get a refund.

Guilty.

I complained about this before and was unable to follow it up as they made it so difficult.

Several times the child fare as opposed to the schoolchild fare was charged, I think it was an additional 20 cent, but this happened maybe ten times over a two month period. not much but it should not happen, DublinBus should get it right.

I made a complaint and was told I would have to print off a statement of the Leap Card account and bring it in to Dublin Bus offices on O’Connell Street and claim a refund.

I did not follow up on this as the cost of getting in there,the stress of it and the waste of a day off every two months did not warrant the potential refund of €2.00.

Disappointed at Dublin Bus’s lack of will to remedy thisissue.

Tickityboo

Just tell your son to use the automatic validator an the right hand side as he enters the bus.
This will just deduct the 70cents fare.
When they present their card on the drivers machine it only gives two options of either 90 cents or €1.10.
The driver has to press the school child button to issue a school fare.
This was never explained to drivers and I would think that is the reason for the overcharge because drivers only see 90cents or€1.10 on the menu screen and charge the lower.
Nothing to do with nastiness or power trips but just the bad implimentation of the leapcard onto the buses.

cdebru

Tickityboo wrote: »

Just tell your son to use the automatic validator an the right hand side as he enters the bus.
This will just deduct the 70cents fare.
When they present their card on the drivers machine it only gives two options of either 90 cents or €1.10.
The driver has to press the school child button to issue a school fare.
This was never explained to drivers and I would think that is the reason for the overcharge because drivers only see 90cents or€1.10 on the menu screen and charge the lower.
Nothing to do with nastiness or power trips but just the bad implimentation of the leapcard onto the buses.

Are you sure that will only deduct 70 cents? Will using the validator at the side not deduct the maximum child fare of €1.10?

Tickityboo

cdebru wrote: »

Are you sure that will only deduct 70 cents? Will using the validator at the side not deduct the maximum child fare of €1.10?

yes almost 100% certain.
This is just from observation of school kids boarding and I'm open to correction on it.
I'll check again on Weds.

cdebru

Tickityboo wrote: »

yes almost 100% certain.
This is just from observation of school kids boarding and I'm open to correction on it.
I'll check on Weds.

https://www.leapcard.ie/en/PageSetting/ContentViewer.aspx?Val=e1Xjdhj4So8OKmztAFX/kygv5AXLVJO9Rkm1%2BnTT9Lxi2HJxydzRNmAlDOeVCa8P%2BsLgdZMWdrEjtngpsJIcXSk0aFaKt%2B2Z8%2BoMplv88BxOMHCjgiibXk2hjrb7Yl/6k8zxd2mqlkFlPoLRVyGYQdA9Zm9yAFQ%2ByXFtz30/O4s%3D

Child Leap Cards are used in a similar manner to Adult cards with the appropriate Child fare or default fare deducted

That sounds like it would charge the €1.10 if you validate at the side.

Tickityboo

cdebru wrote: »

https://www.leapcard.ie/en/PageSetting/ContentViewer.aspx?Val=e1Xjdhj4So8OKmztAFX/kygv5AXLVJO9Rkm1%2BnTT9Lxi2HJxydzRNmAlDOeVCa8P%2BsLgdZMWdrEjtngpsJIcXSk0aFaKt%2B2Z8%2BoMplv88BxOMHCjgiibXk2hjrb7Yl/6k8zxd2mqlkFlPoLRVyGYQdA9Zm9yAFQ%2ByXFtz30/O4s%3D





That sounds like it would charge the €1.10 if you validate at the side.

As I said it was only my observation and I'm almost 100% certain that any child that uses the automatic validator is charged 70cents.
I'm off tomorrow but will check again on Weds.

foggy_lad

Tickityboo wrote: »

As I said it was only my observation and I'm almost 100% certain that any child that uses the automatic validator is charged 70cents.
I'm off tomorrow but will check again on Weds.

How does the automatic validator tell the difference between a schoolchild and a normal child fare though? I would imagine it charges the maximum fare and all other fares must be got from the driver. Backwards as always in Ireland.

Tickityboo

foggy_lad wrote: »

How does the automatic validator tell the difference between a schoolchild and a normal child fare though? I would imagine it charges the maximum fare and all other fares must be got from the driver. Backwards as always in Ireland.

I think it's another fxxk up where kids can get school fares all year round!!!
More money lost!!

Rachiee

Drivers probably just hitting the wrong button its happened to me a few times just get him to check the screen and get a refund if overcharged.

Tickityboo

Rachiee wrote: »

Drivers probably just hitting the wrong button its happened to me a few times just get him to check the screen and get a refund if overcharged.

But that's the problem!!
Drivers only get two options on the screen 90cents or €1.10.

rovoagho

You have to wonder, with Oyster only an hour away, how they made quite such a hames of Leap.

And how they're still getting away with the O'Connell guff is beyond me. It's right up there with the clamper's appeals process in terms of con jobs.

cdebru

foggy_lad wrote: »

How does the automatic validator tell the difference between a schoolchild and a normal child fare though? I would imagine it charges the maximum fare and all other fares must be got from the driver. Backwards as always in Ireland.

It could be set up to charge school fares Monday to Friday during school term up to 5pm not difficult but I don't think it is.

Dravokivich

cdebru wrote: »

https://www.leapcard.ie/en/PageSetting/ContentViewer.aspx?Val=e1Xjdhj4So8OKmztAFX/kygv5AXLVJO9Rkm1%2BnTT9Lxi2HJxydzRNmAlDOeVCa8P%2BsLgdZMWdrEjtngpsJIcXSk0aFaKt%2B2Z8%2BoMplv88BxOMHCjgiibXk2hjrb7Yl/6k8zxd2mqlkFlPoLRVyGYQdA9Zm9yAFQ%2ByXFtz30/O4s%3D





That sounds like it would charge the €1.10 if you validate at the side.

The configuration of fares on the machines is by Dublin bus, so you're probably better looking inside more, than to the leap website. The validators by the door are set to the max fare for the service type.

foggy_lad wrote: »

How does the automatic validator tell the difference between a schoolchild and a normal child fare though? I would imagine it charges the maximum fare and all other fares must be got from the driver. Backwards as always in Ireland.

Timer. If it's within a certain time range, it should only charge the fare required for schoolkids. That's how it's done with Irish Rail.

dirtynosebeps

i need to clarify something here. there are 2 child buttons on the machine.
one is for outside school hours €1cash/ 90c leap card and €1.25 cash /€1.10 leap card.
the other button is for the school child going to and from school 80c cash / 70c leap card. unless the boarding child states their fare it's almost impossible for the driver to know which fare and destination the child is looking for. most children when boarding a bus say "one child". one child could be a number of fares.
"
Getting on the bus – How to pay

1. Tell the driver where you want to go.
2. The driver will tell you how much your fare is."

theres still alot of confusion over the leap cards.
people still tag getting on and off the bus.
people still hold their leap card against the vaildator for fare lower , the validator will charge €2.45 leap card fare no matter where your going.. in other words they are over charging themselves.

Dravokivich

dirtynosebeps wrote: »

unless the boarding child states their fare it's almost impossible for the driver to know which fare

It doesn't matter how many buttons there are. It's a flat fare during school times. A schoolkid shouldn't have to remind a driver they are a schoolkid.

dirtynosebeps

Dravokivich wrote: »

It doesn't matter how many buttons there are. It's a flat fare during school times. A schoolkid shouldn't have to remind a driver they are a schoolkid.

actually it does. you could have school going children up to the age of 18. some schools dont wear uniforms. some schools have days off when others are in school. simplest solution is for the child to state their fare.
"Children under 16 years of age are charged fares in accordance with the child or school child fare scale"
it's impossible for a driver to distinguish a 14/15 year old from a 17 year old. yet most children in the ages above attend school. the children could also be on a day out/trip with their school.. the list is endless.
as i said the simple solution is for the child to state their fare. that way theres no arguments/disputes over fares.

Grandad99

dirtynosebeps wrote: »

unless the boarding child states their fare it's almost impossible for the driver to know which fare and destination the child is looking for. .

Date of birth had to be proven to get the leap card.

Correct me if I am wrong, but is there not just one schoolchild fare of 80 cent cash or 70 cent leap card regardless of the number of stages.

The child fare outside school hours is €1 cash or 90 centleap card for 1 – 7 stages.

In my child’s case it appears the 90 cent leap card childfare has been applied on many occasions instead of the 70 cent leap card schoolchild fare, despite boarding in full uniform, carrying a school bag and during school hours.

Surely in this case it should be obvious that this is a school child and as the number of stages is irrelevant for the school child fare, the 70 cent fare should be applied, even if the child says nothing.

beauf

dirtynosebeps wrote: »

...
theres still alot of confusion over the leap cards.
people still tag getting on and off the bus...

They should have the same system for buses and trains.

Thats the problem.

AlekSmart

Tickityboo wrote: »

As I said it was only my observation and I'm almost 100% certain that any child that uses the automatic validator is charged 70cents.
I'm off tomorrow but will check again on Weds.

Yep Ticketyboo,during Schoolchild Fare hours the remote validator defaults to the Schoolchild Fare 70c.

This is to speeed up boarding at schools as it allows for two streams to board quickly,most of the chizzlers I deal with are very adept at using the technology.

https://www.leapcard.ie/en/PageSetting/ContentViewer.aspx?Val=Zk1kXuXjSAmKm4PZmr2wZB3Wfgg5muBAOtzUDB2WjQ9aj7n17vcc%2bKCQDK2%2fwDJHmmmBaDgh987lU62F30yF84i4VqUmgFkXDRaEZm3gf3OwoRQIzTCw4yyRPGaW6G3yN4OcqD428vNC8GTLZOXKG%2f3xNGMT7yBERZXOeD6VbF4%3d

Adult/Student Travelcard Child Child (during
school hours)
From Driver Validator
Shoppers City Centre Fare € 0.55 € 0.50 € 0.50

Stages 1 – 3 € 1.40 € 0.90 € 0.70 € 0.70
Stages 4 – 7 € 1.90 € 0.90 € 0.70 € 0.70
Stages 8 – 13 € 2.10 € 1.10 € 0.70 € 0.70

From Validator on Right Hand Side

Over 13 Stages € 2.45 € 1.10 € 0.70

(However,although Leapcard appears to offer this Flat 70c Fare to ALL Child Leap journeys during School Hours,the Ticket Machine does NOT default to the 70c for ALL Child transactions,as it should,leading not surprisingly to the Overcharging scenario....remind me again how much exactly has the ITS programme cost to date and how long has it been in the planning ...?)

This is to speeed up boarding at schools as it allows for two streams to board quickly,most of the chizzlers I deal with are very adept at using the technology.

Its also worth noting that as Child/Schoolchild Fares are "concessionary" they MUST be requested..so if young Master Maclek does'nt specifically request a "School" fare he'll likely as not get a €1.10.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Fares--Tickets/Fare-Information/Fares/

14. Each passenger shall produce evidence of his eligibility for travel at concessionary rates where he claims to be so entitled.

* Schoolchild Cash Fares apply only during normal school terms, for travel between home and school Monday to Friday up to 17:00hrs and on Saturday up to 13:30hrs. Outside of these hours a flat fare of €1.10 will apply to the child fare.

Many people incorrectly believe that the Schoolchild Fare applies to ALL Child travel during School Hours....Not So...The Schoolchild Fare is specific to journeys to and from regular classes ONLY...It is not valid for extra-curricular trips to the Museum or Sports Days etc,nor is it valid for journeys home after 1700.

Most of the young Cash Paying folks I deal with usually throw a €1 coin into the machine and look at me in sullen silence,occasionally I'll be asked for a Euro...If I enquire as to their destination and tell them it's actually €1.25 I will be greeted with even more blankness

dazberry

maclek wrote: »

I wonder if this is happening to pretty much everyone who has a 12 - 15 leap card? Sounds like a huge racket from Dublin bus, hoping no one checks their child's account or can't be arsed to get a refund.

The whole process is bit of a joke really. Ultimately the leapcard people will tell you to contact the relevant company, which is the case of Dublin Bus is their customer service in O'Connell St, which if it doesn't suit M-F, you have a windows of 9 to 2 on Saturdays, as while the office is open on a Sunday, it is only open for ticket sales and not customer service.

I'm tired of being overcharged at this stage, I've even got to the point of requesting the fare specifically, and still being overcharged. Most recently a driver hit the button twice and also charged me for a companion ticket, which he then claimed was reversed but it wasn't. The Dublin bus side of the system really needs looking at.

D.

dublinstevie

the answer to this is very simple.for the 70c school fare a CHILD LEAP CARD which is white in colour must be presented to the card scanner on the right hand side when entering bus.DO NOT present to driver as the only optlon he has on the screen is 90c and 1.10.

beauf

That suggests theres a different way of using the adult leap vs a childs one.

dublinstevie

beauf wrote: »

That suggests theres a different way of using the adult leap vs a childs one.

yes that could be seen as correct,using the adult leap on the scanner will incur maximum leap fare of €2.45 whilst the child leap presented to the scanner will incur the minimum child fare of 70cent during the school fare times

dirtynosebeps

dublinstevie wrote: »

the answer to this is very simple.for the 70c school fare a CHILD LEAP CARD which is white in colour must be presented to the card scanner on the right hand side when entering bus.DO NOT present to driver as the only optlon he has on the screen is 90c and 1.10.

sorry stevie your post is completely misleading, you can present the child leap card to the driver. what the driver must do is hit the school child button to issue the 70c fare. and not the child button. as i already stated earlier there are 2 buttons for children and this what most of you seen to miss. one is for out of hours and the other is to and from school which is is bold.

beauf

This confused process planning defaults to charging the customer more.

I don't know why they just can't make it a simple swipe on and off, everywhere.

Why does it need to involve the driver at all.

AlekSmart

dublinstevie wrote: »

the answer to this is very simple.for the 70c school fare a CHILD LEAP CARD which is white in colour must be presented to the card scanner on the right hand side when entering bus.DO NOT present to driver as the only optlon he has on the screen is 90c and 1.10.

Worth pointing out also,that there are TWO Child Leapcards....The UNDER 12 and the 12-15,with the main difference being the Personalized nature (ID Photo) of the 12-15 Card.

Another somewhat glaring example of complexity added to what should have been a system focused upon simplifying the entire process....:o

LXFlyer

beauf wrote: »

This confused process planning defaults to charging the customer more.

I don't know why they just can't make it a simple swipe on and off, everywhere.

Why does it need to involve the driver at all.

Because until the fare system is simplified, something the NTA are committed to by the 2015 fare review, that simply isn't possible.

AlekSmart

dirtynosebeps wrote: »

sorry stevie your post is completely misleading, you can present the child leap card to the driver. what the driver must do is hit the school child button to issue the 70c fare. and not the child button. as i already stated earlier there are 2 buttons for children and this what most of you seen to miss. one is for out of hours and the other is to and from school which is is bold.

There are THREE buttons on the Wayfarer for Children (4 if you include City Fare).

The Schoolchild button is seperate from the Screen Menu and on the opposite side of the Machine Fascia...at a busy school most of the Children I carry will ASK for School/Schoolchild please...a lesser,yet significant amount will ask for €1 and some even for €1.25 :eek:

To address the specific allegation of systematic "overcharging"would be relatively simple and involve only altering the Software to default ALL childFare Buttons to 70c during School Term Hours.

As it currently stands,Busdrivers at busy stops will instinctively hit the fare denomination they are asked for,it's very quick and the process does'nt really allow for extended consultation at the Stop.

The situation is quite similar with the City-Centre Fare,it is a concessionary Fare which must be requested,if a customer wants it they must ask for it otherwise they will be given the €1.65 they ask for instead.

dublinstevie

dirtynosebeps wrote: »

sorry stevie your post is completely misleading, you can present the child leap card to the driver. what the driver must do is hit the school child button to issue the 70c fare. and not the child button. as i already stated earlier there are 2 buttons for children and this what most of you seen to miss. one is for out of hours and the other is to and from school which is is bold.

the button for school fare on machine is for cash fare only 80c.if the leap card is presented to driver machine and school fare requested and the driver presses button then all he is doing is printing a ticket without receiving any fare.trust me the 70c school fare is available by using the child leap on the scan machine on the right when entering bus

beauf

lxflyer wrote: »

Because until the fare system is simplified, something the NTA are committed to by the 2015 fare review, that simply isn't possible.

Some people are are saying its possible with the current system. Others that it isn't.

LXFlyer

beauf wrote: »

Some people are are saying its possible with the current system. Others that it isn't.

Right now due to the different fares available and the staged fare system used it isn't possible - how would the ticket machine know what fare to deduct.

Until the fare structure is simplified (and we don't know how yet), it's just simply not possible.

beauf

Isn't there a flat childs fare for school hours.

AlekSmart

beauf wrote: »

Isn't there a flat childs fare for school hours.

Yes...two of them.....70c and 80c...and,depending on the T's & C's you read,available ONLY for travel to/from Classes rather than being a universally available Flat Fare.....Simple eh..??

beauf

Dumb as plank. TBH.

dowlingm

What a headwrecker. Kids are supposed to specify they are going to school and not the museum (or mitching) and that their school is in session that week. Meanwhile the validator asks no questions and can tell time/date. The bureaucratic mind...

maclek

Response from dublin bus:

Firstly, please accept my apologies on behalf of Dublin Bus. Unfortunately at the moment we do not have the facility to refund your money directly to your leap card. We are working in conjunction with the National Transport Authority to upgrade the system so that we will have the facility to refund your Leap Card remotely.

Alternatively if you could please forward your postal address for the attention of <snip>. I can then send out tickets to reimburse your over charge.

I have checked with the sales manager and he has gone to check a few buses for me. I would like to check that your child is using the validator on the right hand side as you get on the bus. Because it should automatically take the school child fare one it is within the time frame. If you are using the validator beside the driver it maybe driver error. But it is advisable to use the stand alone validator for school children as it is a set fare no matter how far you are travelling as long as it is within school term and up to 5pm Mon - Fri and sat up to 1pm.

The tickets arrived in the post today, more than covers the overcharge.

Instructions have been issued to use the validator on the right. We'll see if that clears up the overcharging.

Errors happen, it's how you handle them and this was handled well. I'll just have to keep an eye on it.

beauf

What were the Instructions? Was it any more than "use the validator on the right" ?

LXFlyer

beauf wrote: »

What were the Instructions? Was it any more than "use the validator on the right" ?

What more instruction does a schoolchild need when going to/from school?

Using that validator means they will be charged the correct fare every time they go to/from school.

beauf

We've had 4 pages of posts about going to the driver vs the validator...

Its seems the drivers don;t know this.

dowlingm

lxflyer wrote: »

What more instruction does a schoolchild need when going to/from school?

"Ask the driver if he posts on boards as AlekSmart because he knows what the score is and will override the barmy default. If not, he or she likely received insufficient training from BE DB and uses equipment which doesn't promote an efficient boarding process, so use the validator"

Perhaps some parent/chizzler information on the stops nearest schools would be useful?