Geek social fallacies

MadsL

I just read an interesting article from ten years back, regarding the social falacies we are sometimes expected to adhere to fom our friends. I certainly recognise some of them from interacting with large groups of both friends and strangers - particularly festivals.

Geek Social Fallacy #1: Ostracizers Are Evil

GSF1 is one of the most common fallacies, and one of the most deeply held. Many geeks have had horrible, humiliating, and formative experiences with ostracism, and the notion of being on the other side of the transaction is repugnant to them.

Geek Social Fallacy #2: Friends Accept Me As I Am

The origins of GSF2 are closely allied to the origins of GSF1. After being victimized by social exclusion, many geeks experience their "tribe" as a non-judgmental haven where they can take refuge from the cruel world outside.

...

Carriers of GSF2 believe that since a friend accepts them as they are, anyone who criticizes them is not their friend.

Geek Social Fallacy #3: Friendship Before All

Valuing friendships is a fine and worthy thing. When taken to an unhealthy extreme, however, GSF3 can manifest itself.

Geek Social Fallacy #4: Friendship Is Transitive

Every carrier of GSF4 has, at some point, said:

"Wouldn't it be great to get all my groups of friends into one place for one big happy party?!"

If you groaned at that last paragraph, you may be a recovering GSF4 carrier.

GSF4 is the belief that any two of your friends ought to be friends with each other, and if they're not, something is Very Wrong.

Geek Social Fallacy #5: Friends Do Everything Together

GSF5, put simply, maintains that every friend in a circle should be included in every activity to the full extent possible. This is subtly different from GSF1; GSF1 requires that no one, friend or not, be excluded, while GSF5 requires that every friend be invited.
...

For some reason, many GSF5 carriers are willing to make an exception for gender-segregated events. I don't know why.

I have edited the above - the full text is here

Do you recognise all or any of these fallacies from your social circle (or from boards.ie?) I think I am a GSF1 carrier...:)

Karl Stein

Sorry, I don't speak geek.

crazygeryy

oh look antiques roadshow is on.

MadsL

Charlie Rock wrote: »

Sorry, I don't speak geek.

As I suffer from GSF#1 - you are most welcome to join us anyway...:)

kneemos

Was the article being ironic?

MadsL

kneemos wrote: »

Was the article being ironic?

How so?

kneemos

MadsL wrote: »

How so?

Nice one.

Karl Stein

MadsL wrote: »

As I suffer from GSF#1 - you are most welcome to join us anyway...:)

Honestly though, I can't understand it.

Geek Social Fallacy #1: Ostracizers Are Evil

GSF1 is one of the most common fallacies, and one of the most deeply held. Many geeks have had horrible, humiliating, and formative experiences with ostracism, and the notion of being on the other side of the transaction is repugnant to them.

What's the story there? Is it that ostracizers aren't evil and the problem is with geeks or that geeks are genuine victims of ostracism?

hatrickpatrick

Read the title as "Greek". Had a whole Father Ted rip off prepared and everything

MadsL

I think I may need to tell a story in relation to what I recognise as my GSF#1

I came across a kid at a festival as he walked past my tent, overweight, and bright red with what looks like heat exhaustion. He was trying to cool down a little at the tap right next to our tent. I offered him what I had offered most passers by - a mini shower of an ice cold sprayer we had set up (garden sprayer) - he declined and said he was so ugly he would freak people out if he was to take his shirt off. I basically said "wtf?" and sat down with him for a bit of a chat about body issues and what was going on. Turns out he was getting bullied - in first year of college - about his body mostly. High school I expect, but college? Assholes.

Anyway, I did a bit of a therapy session with him to let him talk it out, usual low self esteem, girls etc. introduced him around camp - we had a couple of good looking girls who were hanging around the camp and I got them to pay him some attention; in a friendly way but certainly not in any sexual way.

Anyway, kid wanders off and I caution him to stop walking around barefoot, as barefoot is the dumbest idea at a very muddy festival.

He comes back several hours, later, still barefoot, still kinda miserable.

Anyway, fire circle, beers etc late night, I have two strays sleeping in my tent - tent is huge by the way - I'm in my hammock, the couple are sleeping on the sofa (a couple who had hitched to the festival in AK all the way from OR) there are few other people kinda in and out, chilling, talking, drinking beer. I'm sort of half asleep. So the kid shows up again, fine all good, sits, doesn't say much. I fall asleep.

I wake up. 3 am or so. Couple asleep on sofa. Kid has made a bed out of two camping chairs. He appears to be naked but covered with a sleeping bag. He may or may not be masturbating.

I wake up again, it's light. Couple are still asleep. Girl on the outside facing the kid. Kid is furiously masterbating looking at girl. She has her eyes closed and is not moving. I'm too speechless to say anything. He clearly finishes. He gathers up his stuff and leaves.

Girl opens her eyes, I look at her an mouth "what the ****" - she sighs and goes back to sleep. Next morning all she says is..."well that was intense"

I find the kid the next day, and I give him "a talk" - what the hell do you say?

I give him the "sex is good, but boundaries and permission are needed" speech, and the "you do not want to end up on the sex offenders register" talk.

So - GSF#1 bit me pretty hard in that incident.

Karl Stein

MadsL wrote: »

Kid is furiously masterbating looking at girl. She has her eyes closed and is not moving.

Dirty fecker.

MadsL

Charlie Rock wrote: »

Honestly though, I can't understand it.

Have a read of the article in full.

What's the story there? Is it that ostracizers aren't evil and the problem is with geeks or that geeks are genuine victims of ostracism?

That any society (ignore the geek references) this is in anyway counter-culture will be so used to being ostracised from the mainstream that they will absolutely accept anyone prepared to identify with them regardless of their behaviour.

This is a fallacy because clearly we all have behaviours that would at some point cross the line. In my story above, I welcome the kid into my temporary social circle, but his behaviour crosses a line.

The social pressure however is to ignore the kid's behaviour "be cool about it" because of his esteem issues - he has been ostracised, therefore I should not ostracise him.

It ignores the protection of others in the group I think. I dunno, still conflicted about that incident.

MadsL

Charlie Rock wrote: »

Dirty fecker.

Dirty fecker or maladjusted youngster who hasn't come to terms with his sexuality, or what boundaries mean?

Should I have just ostracised him or confronted his behaviour and kept him within the group? Should he have apologised/made amends to the girl?

Karl Stein

I'm outa my depth ⇧⇧

hatrickpatrick

MadsL wrote: »

Dirty fecker or maladjusted youngster who hasn't come to terms with his sexuality, or what boundaries mean?

Should I have just ostracised him or confronted his behaviour and kept him within the group? Should he have apologised/made amends to the girl?

Did he at least ask her out afterwards?

MadsL

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Did he at least ask her out afterwards?

Err...trust me, kid could hardly string a sentence together in front of a girl.

Wibbs

MadsL wrote: »

maladjusted youngster who hasn't come to terms with his sexuality, or what boundaries mean?

This I'd reckon Madser. Socially isolated while younger, increasing in puberty, ending up with boundary issues. Might also be clinically ill too though.

Should I have just ostracised him or confronted his behaviour and kept him within the group? Should he have apologised/made amends to the girl?

Really hard one. I've been in similar situations(not quite so wanky) and it's a hard call to make. If you ostracise, then it's what he expects so learns nothing, if you confront and get it even slightly wrong it just embeds his worldview even deeper. You kinda have to catch that stuff young IMHO. Very few of us didn't make complete gobshítes of ourselves when we were kids. It's what kids do and through such screwups and the screwups of our peers we learn the social ropes. It's also expected that kids may be shaky on boundaries or not know the diff between indoor and outdoor voice, so they're free to screwup and as importantly free to apologise too. A 20 odd year old is a different kettle of fish and will likely be ostracised, even shunned, even if he's just a bit "odd" and not a furtive tent wanker.

MadsL

Wibbs wrote: »

This I'd reckon Madser. Socially isolated while younger, increasing in puberty, ending up with boundary issues. Might also be clinically ill too though.

Really hard one. I've been in similar situations(not quite so wanky) and it's a hard call to make. If you ostracise, then it's what he expects so learns nothing, if you confront and get it even slightly wrong it just embeds his worldview even deeper. You kinda have to catch that stuff young IMHO. Very few of us didn't make complete gobshítes of ourselves when we were kids. It's what kids do and through such screwups and the screwups of our peers we learn the social ropes. It's also expected that kids may be shaky on boundaries or not know the diff between indoor and outdoor voice, so they're free to screwup and as importantly free to apologise too. A 20 odd year old is a different kettle of fish and will likely be ostracised, even shunned, even if he's just a bit "odd" and not a furtive tent wanker.

Good post.

As I pointed out to him, he was lucky enough to have done this to a very worldly-wise 25 year girl who seemed quite sexually confident.

A less experienced/confident girl might have gone running for the cops and this kid ends up with a sex offender record.

Equally, had this been a close friend or even my daughter, my reaction would have probably been different, and that challenges (probably in a good way) my GSF#1.

I find it interesting how we police ourselves/other when in an alternative social setting, I cannot police others boundaries, but I can certainly squawk if they impinge on others boundaries.

pajor

This is the most confusing thread I've seen in a long time.

And for that OP, I must commend you.

MadsL

pajor wrote: »

This is the most confusing thread I've seen in a long time.

And for that OP, I must commend you.

Thank you. I admit this a bit deeper than the average AH thread. Let me break it down a little bit.

Proposition 1.
We should include everyone in our social groupings.

Proposition 2.
If you are my friend you accept everything about me, otherwise you are not my friend.

Proposition 3.
Friendship is the most important thing in the world.

Proposition 4.
My friends should be friends with each other.

Proposition 5.
We should always include everyone in our social circle in our activies.
[Unless it is boys/girls night.]


Which ones do you agree with?

P_1

kowloon

Worked on a job once where most of us ended up in a hostel for a while. The place was packed enough that we ended up in mixed rooms. One of the guys there was a bit of a deviant and besides getting caught stealing some underwear he decided to have a bit of a tug under the blankets. I woke up and see this only to notice the poor girl on the bunk below him with a look on her face like the wife in The Shining. Also had someone else who would go through a 2l bottle of cider for breakfast.
You meet some unusual people when you're forced into close proximity with strangers.

I'm not sure if that's even related to the OP.

MadsL

kowloon wrote: »

Worked on a job once where most of us ended up in a hostel for a while. The place was packed enough that we ended up in mixed rooms. One of the guys there was a bit of a deviant and besides getting caught stealing some underwear he decided to have a bit of a tug under the blankets. I woke up and see this only to notice the poor girl on the bunk below him with a look on her face like the wife in The Shining. Also had someone else who would go through a 2l bottle of cider for breakfast.
You meet some unusual people when you're forced into close proximity with strangers.

I'm not sure if that's even related to the OP.

It is. I'm curious with how we manage social relationships like that. Running to the cops is a bit strong, but how to manage when people breach those boundaries.

Often you get the 'don't judge me' reaction when calling somebody out.

One of things I have particularly like about Burning Man culture is how many hard truths you will be told if you step out of line, compared to the GSF#1 which has this hippy-dippy wishy-washy "everyone is special" line of, frankly, bullcrap.

I'm not sure we are getting better, or worse, at calling people on the things they do that are socially unacceptable.

TheBegotten

As a recovering geek (is that even a thing?), I can admit to GSFs 1, 2, 4 and 5. It's more a manifestation of no self-esteem than a cause within itself. When you've only got real friends and enemies, expecting them all to get along isn't too unusual...

MadsL

TheBegotten wrote: »

As a recovering geek (is that even a thing?), I can admit to GSFs 1, 2, 4 and 5. It's more a manifestation of no self-esteem than a cause within itself. When you've only got real friends and enemies, expecting them all to get along isn't too unusual...

I imagine that there are some real doozies for when friends don't get along. I'm a very social guy, but I tend to interact at the deepest friendship level with one person at a time. I have never been able to really make a deep close group of friends work together.

pajor

Simplifying it down is appreciated and helps.

- Proposition 1: I realised a good while back that Proposition 1 is in fact impossible. People who are from different social groups and even just have different interests, a lot of the time just can't gel together. There is little point in trying to make it happen.

- Proposition 2: Can't say I've ever found that out to be true. Particularly when it comes to music.

- Proposition 3: For me, this is the trap of this whole idea. Personal experience etc etc. It's hard to comprehend when the last person in the world you'd expect to let you down, does a lot lot more than that.

- Proposition 4: Links back to Proposition 1, it's just sometimes not possible.

- Proposition 5: Ditto above.

Something that made me realise recently how cynical I can be now when it comes to 'friendships', was one of the newish Coke billboard ads. A girl saying 'no matter what, we'll always be friends..' You say that now.. :pac:

pharmaton

Madsl, you spoke before about your interactions with native Americans, do you know that in their culture shunning was a regular way of enforcing tribal law. It would have been customary in some tribes to have the community literally turn their backs as a mark of disrespect and those guilty of crimes which went against the welfare of tribe were ostracized and consequently required to leave it and the safety it provided behind them. I think if people were aware of the "rules" they are more likely to either play by them or seek somewhere else which suits them better.

MadsL

pharmaton wrote: »

Madsl, you spoke before about your interactions with native Americans, do you know that in their culture shunning was a regular way of enforcing tribal law. It would have been customary in some tribes to have the community literally turn their backs as a mark of disrespect and those guilty of crimes which went against the welfare of tribe were ostracized and consequently required to leave it and the safety it provided behind them. I think if people were aware of the "rules" they are more likely to either play by them or seek somewhere else which suits them better.

My own parents were shunned in a similar way when my mother got pregnant before marriage with my other sibling. A christian community - but similar practice. Native American clowns use feast days as well to issue punishments as a way of enforcing the cultutal norm; I also have been told of Tribal meth users being shamed in this way and coming off meth.

Defiler Of The Coffin

I find it difficult to entertain people I know in different social circles at the same time so I just don't bother now. Ring up one or two different people and that's enough.

pharmaton

MadsL wrote: »

My own parents were shunned in a similar way when my mother got pregnant before marriage with my other sibling. A christian community - but similar practice. Native American clowns use feast days as well to issue punishments as a way of enforcing the cultutal norm; I also have been told of Tribal meth users being shamed in this way and coming off meth.

The clowns (Heyoka) were not discriminatory, they would take the pis$ out of anyone and were only permitted to do so as they were considered to be moved by spirit hence why they played an active role in religious ceremonies. They were much like the court jester and parodied (to make more obvious) actions that were deemed inappropriate, much like the political satire of today. Shunning was a community effort, the entire tribe were responsible for enforcing it, in lesser cases it often meant that the guilty party was plainly ignored, just not spoken to or their person acknowledged by everyone else. Murderers or thieves would be sent out from the community to serve their time alone and without the protection that the tribe would afford them.

btw, every tribe has their own set of rules, if not having children before marriage was one of them for example, individuals were shunned might find welcome in other tribes who's rules differed. (I spent time in the company of a few)

Weevil

I think it might be helpful to differentiate between:

Geeks

and

Nerds.

Geeks tend to excel in some practice or profession useful to humanity. Nerds tend to be a waste of the attention given them, and ungrateful with it.

MadsL

Geek Social Fallacy #6 or #5b: Friends Like All the Same Things.

http://faerye.net/post/geek-social-fallacy-addendum

pajor

'Good idea, you can speak nerd to them!'

'I'm not a nerd Bart! Nerds are smart.'

conorhal

MadsL wrote: »

Thank you. I admit this a bit deeper than the average AH thread. Let me break it down a little bit.

Proposition 1.
We should include everyone in our social groupings.

Proposition 2.
If you are my friend you accept everything about me, otherwise you are not my friend.

Proposition 3.
Friendship is the most important thing in the world.

Proposition 4.
My friends should be friends with each other.

Proposition 5.
We should always include everyone in our social circle in our activies.
[Unless it is boys/girls night.]


Which ones do you agree with?

None of them to be honest.

Prop1
Why would I include everybody in my social grouping even if I have nothing in common with them? Typically friends and social circles are sort of dependent on a degree of comonality, it's generally how they're formed.
Prop2
I don't expect friends to accept everything about me, that's stupid. I have friends that are both right on lefties and rabid righties, there are things we share in common but others we disagree on, I don't expect friends to be utterly unquestioning or unconditionally supportive of everything I do. All that means is that you have friends unlikely to call you on it if do something stupid
Prop3
Friendship is important. Sometimes you have to place other priorities first though, that's life. It has a habit if getting in the way from time to time.
Prop4
Friends should always be together? Sometimes as with all loves, absense makes the heart grow fonder. I'm part of a circle of friends, not a cult....
Prop5
This I guess comes back to the diversity of the friends I might have, not all are immediately likely to get along just because they have me in common. Besides, I sort of like having a couple of different groups of friends and most people do have seperate groups of friends, your 'work friends', your 'school buddies' and your 'hobby mates'. I often find that when all invited to the same party they tend to end up huddled in their own litle subgroupings anyhow.

The article itself is more cliche ridden then an episode of the Big Bang Theory, it doesn't even seem to know what a 'geek' is. I'd say much of those falacies are more applicable to goths and emo's then geeks, who may be perfectly normal average people with an interest in some specific hobby about which they happen to be a bit 'geeky'.

GalwayGuy2

My own parents were shunned in a similar way when my mother got pregnant before marriage with my other sibling. A christian community - but similar practice. Native American clowns use feast days as well to issue punishments as a way of enforcing the cultutal norm; I also have been told of Tribal meth users being shamed in this way and coming off meth

Doesn't every society have some form of shunning as a punishment?

TheBegotten

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

Doesn't every society have some form of shunning as a punishment?

Prison and the like...

MadsL

TheBegotten wrote: »

Prison and the like...

It is interesting how severe lack of social contact is viewed as a punishment. Solitary confinement for instance, or in the case of Balinese societies Kasepekang is seen as being like a social and spiritual death sentence.