Shops charging minimum charge for debit or credit cards

Amy2010

Shops and coffee shops are charging minimum charge for debit or credit cards. It is a blatant rip off? Even a new coffee shop 3fe near Grand Canal Street are on a hop and charge Eur5 min even for a cup of coffee unless I buy their stuff? No cash back for the value of Eur5? I hear more and more shops are doing the same. No wonder, I'm peeved and I don't always have cash on person. It is a bit much. What is your take?

hfallada

All businesses have to pay a merchant bank fee. Usually about 1,75%-2.5% for visa debit and about 3-4% for a visa credit card. Plus they have to pay monthly fees on the machine. It all adds up.

A transaction using cards in a pain. It takes about twice as long to do as a cash purchase. I don't like using cash either. But in the CC with a ATM nearly every 100 mins, you can't complain that it's not convient to find cash

B0X

Depending on who's processing the transactions, the credit card company will take up to 2.9% of the cost of the transaction plus 30c. On a €2 coffee that's 18% of total being taken.

Not that I agree with charging a minimum of €5 though, that's pretty poor form.

allthedoyles

I take my business elsewhere -- often had to walk out of shops empty-handed after realising its minimum €10 .

Of course the shopkeeper has bank fees for transactions , but so have us consumers .

So whats good for the goose , should be good for the gander.

drunkmonkey

Retailers are getting the piss taken out of them with charges, withdraw money from the bank, don't expect retailers to be giving you €5 cash back, once maybe but any more than that and your taking the preverbal. It's costing the retailer too much money.

Amy2010

allthedoyles wrote: »

I take my business elsewhere -- often had to walk out of shops empty-handed after realising its minimum €10 .

Of course the shopkeeper has bank fees for transactions , but so have us consumers .

So whats good for the goose , should be good for the gander.

Yeah, I agree from consumer point of view. I've limits too on how much I spend per day or week. I won't be forced to spend more than necessary. I bought a bag of king crisp not because I wanted it. I was caught on a hop when buying a lunch in a nearest shop. The next nearest shop is about 20mins walk away.

sarumite

Amy2010 wrote: »

Yeah, I agree from consumer point of view. I've limits too on how much I spend per day or week. I won't be forced to spend more than necessary. I bought a bag of king crisp not because I wanted it. I was caught on a hop when buying a lunch in a nearest shop. The next nearest shop is about 20mins walk away.

It could of been worse. King are a fine packet of crisps. Nothing wrong with them at all.

ardmacha

A customer can withdraw €150 from a bank machine for the same fee as €20. So they can make many small payments for one single transaction fee. It is unreasonable to go around paying single digit amounts with a card given the cost to the shop. If shops allow this then the rest of us that are more reasonable will have to pay those charges.

Amy2010

sarumite wrote: »

It could of been worse. King are a fine packet of crisps. Nothing wrong with them at all.

Its lovely crisp but at a price a whopping Eur1. I need to watch my spare tyres thou.

worded

Just pay cash for a coffee. The queue behind you will appreciate it.

Amy2010

ardmacha wrote: »

A customer can withdraw €150 from a bank machine for the same fee as €20. So they can make many small payments for one single transaction fee. It is unreasonable to go around paying single digit amounts with a card given the cost to the shop. If shops allow this then the rest of us that are more reasonable will have to pay those charges.

I think it is unreasonable to be paying a min charge when monies are so tight.

Amy2010

worded wrote: »

Just pay cash for a coffee. The queue behind you will appreciate it.

Agree. It make sense all around, when I find myself 20 cents short...that when all hooha comes in. I've a choice of walking away or use my debit card?

MagicMarker

ardmacha wrote: »

A customer can withdraw €150 from a bank machine for the same fee as €20. So they can make many small payments for one single transaction fee. It is unreasonable to go around paying single digit amounts with a card given the cost to the shop. If shops allow this then the rest of us that are more reasonable will have to pay those charges.

I'm unreasonable for wanting to use my debit card for my purchases? If shops have to pay fees then that's their problem, not mine. A coffee shop near me recently brought in a min charge for debit cards, so I stopped going there and instead go to another place 50 yards up the street. So because the shop wanted to save literally a couple of pennies on my purchase they've now lost all the profit from me, a former regular customer.

Cookie_Monster

There's no excuse for the banks to be charging shops so much for the electronic transactions in the first place, that's where the problem is.

We've EFTPOS over here in New Zealand (Electronic funds transfer, point of sale). Fees are 1-1.5% to merchants, everyone uses it, even for $2-3 dollar transactions. It's a brilliant system, cheap for everyone, quick and negates the need to ever carry cash. Even beach side coffee carts have it

Amy2010

MagicMarker wrote: »

I'm unreasonable for wanting to use my debit card for my purchases? If shops have to pay fees then that's their problem, not mine. A coffee shop near me recently brought in a min charge for debit cards, so I stopped going there and instead go to another place 50 yards up the street. So because the shop wanted to save literally a couple of pennies on my purchase they've now lost all the profit from me, a former regular customer.

I agree...it is the same for me. It is a pity for that particular coffee shop I like that I no longer can run in and grab a nice coffee...it is my small luxury.

Amy2010

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

There's no excuse for the banks to be charging shops so much for the electronic transactions in the first place, that's where the problem is.

We've EFTPOS over here in New Zealand (Electronic funds transfer, point of sale). Fees are 1-1.5% to merchants, everyone uses it, even for $2-3 dollar transactions. It's a brilliant system, cheap for everyone, quick and negates the need to ever carry cash. Even beach side coffee carts have it

Hear hear...

Cookie_Monster

Visa debit is also possibly the worst thing to happen in Ireland in a while in regards to this. I was still working for a big user of cards when it started to be launched by AIB and the fees for it were much much higher than laser, both from Visa and on from the banks as well.

hardCopy

ardmacha wrote: »

A customer can withdraw €150 from a bank machine for the same fee as €20. So they can make many small payments for one single transaction fee. It is unreasonable to go around paying single digit amounts with a card given the cost to the shop. If shops allow this then the rest of us that are more reasonable will have to pay those charges.

There is nothing at all unreasonable about expecting to use electronic payments for all transactions in a first world country, actually electronic payment is massively popular even in developing Africa.

The fees charged to shops are unreasonable, but they're probably being charged higher rates by the bank for buying change and lodging cash anyway.

If the government want people to join the 2000s and switch to electronic payments they need to scrap or cap the transaction fees charged. They also need to get rid of the ridiculous stamp duty on cards.

Amy2010

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Visa debit is also possibly the worst thing to happen in Ireland in a while in regards to this. I was still working for a big user of cards when it started to be launched by AIB and the fees for it were much much higher than laser, both from Visa and on from the banks as well.

Yeah, its all about a profit to a bank?

creedp

hardCopy wrote: »

There is nothing at all unreasonable about expecting to use electronic payments for all transactions in a first world country, actually electronic payment is massively popular even in developing Africa.

The fees charged to shops are unreasonable, but they're probably being charged higher rates by the bank for buying change and lodging cash anyway.

If the government want people to join the 2000s and switch to electronic payments they need to scrap or cap the transaction fees charged. They also need to get rid of the ridiculous stamp duty on cards.

Having said that I know people who won't use a credit card becasue they 'wouldn't trust themselves to manage within their resources'. Cash is safer as can't be overspent! Some Irish people have a way to go yet before they mature sufficiently to trust the plastic over cash.

hardCopy

creedp wrote: »

Having said that I know people who won't use a credit card becasue they 'wouldn't trust themselves to manage within their resources'. Cash is safer as can't be overspent! Some Irish people have a way to go yet before they mature sufficiently to trust the plastic over cash.

I know people who are the same. They still overspend by going to ATMs or borrowing from everyone around them. Judging by all the ads for payday loans on UK TV it's not just an Irish problem.

ardmacha

I'm unreasonable for wanting to use my debit card for my purchases? If shops have to pay fees then that's their problem, not mine.

If the shop allows you do it, then it is all of our problem as it drives up the cost of coffee.

Amy2010

creedp wrote: »

Having said that I know people who won't use a credit card becasue they 'wouldn't trust themselves to manage within their resources'. Cash is safer as can't be overspent! Some Irish people have a way to go yet before they mature sufficiently to trust the plastic over cash.

We've to get cash somewhere. I'm sure majority uses ATM to get cash and it is not for free unless you've a min amount in your bank account.

longhalloween

But if we're to move to a cashless society then something will have to be changed.

creedp

Amy2010 wrote: »

We've to get cash somewhere. I'm sure majority uses ATM to get cash and it is not for free unless you've a min amount in your bank account.

The point I was making was that removing charges/duties on credit cards won't necessarily encourage some people to use them until they get over their fear of the demon plastic forcing them to overspend on nice goodies. Personally I use the credit card for almost all purchases .. regularly having to go to the ATM is a pain I don't miss.

Amy2010

creedp wrote: »

The point I was making was that removing charges/duties on credit cards won't necessarily encourage some people to use them until they get over their fear of the demon plastic forcing them to overspend on nice goodies. Personally I use the credit card for almost all purchases .. regularly having to go to the ATM is a pain I don't miss.

I use my debit or credit card for almost all purchases so I can account for what I spent and therefore, able to budget better. I've no problem on curbing my fears to overspend on nice goodies. I got over that years ago.

K-9

Amy2010 wrote: »

Shops and coffee shops are charging minimum charge for debit or credit cards. It is a blatant rip off? Even a new coffee shop 3fe near Grand Canal Street are on a hop and charge Eur5 min even for a cup of coffee unless I buy their stuff? No cash back for the value of Eur5? I hear more and more shops are doing the same. No wonder, I'm peeved and I don't always have cash on person. It is a bit much. What is your take?

Mod:
Thread is more suited to Consumer Issues - boards.ie.

rubadub

allthedoyles wrote: »

I take my business elsewhere -- often had to walk out of shops empty-handed after realising its minimum €10

I often walk out of shops with NO minimum charge, as they should be typically more expensive. To work on the same margins as the shop next door (with charges) they obviously have to increase all prices accordingly across the board to cover the charges. So if I am paying cash in effect subsiding the card users.

According a previous poster a €2.50 coffee could be up to 37cent extra in fees. I wonder if the OP would just prefer to pay that extra, or do they expect cash payers to subsidise the difference.

There could be a different marketing strategy to doing it. Like charge €2.87 across the board, and give the cash payers a "free" biscuit or something.

former legend

Amy2010 wrote: »

I agree...it is the same for me. It is a pity for that particular coffee shop I like that I no longer can run in and grab a nice coffee...it is my small luxury.

But... you know their policy, you now understand the logic behind it, so could you not just keep a couple of euro in change in your handbag and still have your coffee?

foggy_lad

Amy2010 wrote: »

Shops and coffee shops are charging minimum charge for debit or credit cards. It is a blatant rip off? Even a new coffee shop 3fe near Grand Canal Street are on a hop and charge Eur5 min even for a cup of coffee unless I buy their stuff? No cash back for the value of Eur5? I hear more and more shops are doing the same. No wonder, I'm peeved and I don't always have cash on person. It is a bit much. What is your take?

I have never paid extra for mobile top ups and thos would be the same. I will vote with my feet if any shopkeeper or business tries this with me.

If shops and business don't like paying a small amount to get us in the door they should just close the doors.

dudara

TO be fair on retailers, the fees that the card processors handle can be high. And when you think about it, most consumers are paying fees as well on the debit card transactions. So we're getting caught from both sides.

keithclancy

Maestro in the Netherlands is encouraged for small transactions

A few of the checkouts in supermarkets are card only

Bepolite

Your gripe is with the bank not the retailer. Irish banks are stuck in 1980 with poor customer service for even then. Contactless swipe should have been rolled out years ago so you don't get some disorganised customer in front of you holding up the entire queue for a €3.50 coffee.

Frankly I'd be taking my business somewhere else if I had to wait 40 minutes for a coffee while everyone messed about paying by card. Vote with your feet though, you want long queues and the transaction fee built into the price (Starbucks) I want a nice quick coffee and carry around ancient coinage.

I'm sorry to be flippant but it seems that when the whether changes customer start narky, which has been my experience for much of this week. On the flip side the wife has won €100 (2 x €50) in the Visa competition in the last two weeks so I can see why'd you be trying to use the card as much as possible. :pac:

MagicMarker

Bepolite wrote: »

Frankly I'd be taking my business somewhere else if I had to wait 40 minutes for a coffee while everyone messed about paying by card. Vote with your feet though, you want long queues and the transaction fee built into the price (Starbucks) I want a nice quick coffee and carry around ancient coinage:

Sounds like you just go places that have shíte service. 40 mins? Really?

And do you really think Starbucks has long queues because they don't have a min charge for card users? Or do you think that maybe it could have something to do with them being the most popular coffee outlet on the planet?

Personally, it makes no difference to me if someone in front of me pays with a card, it only takes a couple of extra seconds ffs.

Bepolite

MagicMarker wrote: »

Sounds like you just go places that have shíte service. 40 mins? Really?

And do you really think Starbucks has long queues because they don't have a min charge for card users? Or do you think that maybe it could have something to do with them being the most popular coffee outlet on the planet?

Personally, it makes no difference to me if someone in front of me pays with a card, it only takes a couple of extra seconds ffs.

A card payment can take up to 60 seconds, the queue in Starbucks CHQ could easily have 30 people in it. Coffee to Go on Baggot Street can have 25 - 30 people in their queue at peak times. (Thats with 75% of customers paying cash) CHQs foot fall (the area no the Starbucks) would be measured in the hundreds at peak.

PDQs require a phone line, if multiple PDQs are working in a small outlet like C2G they're going to have to wait for each other, fair enough Starbucks can run them over their network and don't have the same issue but still have to wait for the merchant to respond. It was pretty obvious from my post I was presenting the scenario of everyone paying with card without a rapid payment system like they have in France, my apologies for not making this more obvious.

Also Starbucks don't have long queues because they don't need to apply a min charge as there model is completely different. They also don't have long queues because a footfall and payment type analysis will take place, the majority of people pay in cash thankfully.

tricky D

People might also be forgetting that with these Automated transactions the bank don't just charge the retailer but also the customer (you) at a typical rate of €0.20-0.29, never mind the other fixed fees: Maintenance, Govt Duty... So that's a significant overhead for transactions of the order being talked about here ie. your €2.50 coffee costs the retailer €0.37 and you at least €0.20 (omitting the fixed fees). That's well over 20% the ******* banks are taking. Cash is king still applies imho, though free banking is nice if you have it:).

OldNotWIse

If a shop doesn't want to accept payments below a certain amount, why do they bother having a visa/credit card machine? It's like telling you they've no change when you hand them a fifty. I will always walk out of somewhere that demands I buy stuff for the sake of it, same with places that charge extra for topups.

OldNotWIse

MagicMarker wrote: »

Sounds like you just go places that have shíte service. 40 mins? Really?

And do you really think Starbucks has long queues because they don't have a min charge for card users? Or do you think that maybe it could have something to do with them being the most popular coffee outlet on the planet?

Personally, it makes no difference to me if someone in front of me pays with a card, it only takes a couple of extra seconds ffs.

40 minutes for a starbucks...seems the poster is frequenting a cafe stuck in a 2007 time warp

fricatus

longhalloween wrote: »

But if we're to move to a cashless society then something will have to be changed.

Why would we want to move to a cashless society? Common sense should prevail - cash for small purchases, cards for larger ones.

I hate it when we get this guff from the banks about Irish people being "addicted" to carrying around loads of cash, like we're a bunch of superstitious Luddites. They just don't want to handle cash because it's a cost to them, and the media just swallow their argument, hook, line and sinker, without making the opposing case.

Other countries use far more cash than we do, and not just "backward" ones. Japan is a case in point. They're using the Pasmo and Suica cards for limited small purchases (these are public transport cards like the Oyster in London), so there's no going through the bank, or Visa. Even so, cash is still king.

FFS, how hard is it to get into the habit of taking out say €150 at the ATM and then just visiting one again once you're down to about €30?

Del2005

foggy_lad wrote: »

If shops and business don't like paying a small amount to get us in the door they should just close the doors.

If shops are making a loss on the sales they will close there doors. The only way they can avoid surcharges is to build it into the price that everyone pays, or we could get our leaders to force the banks we own to offer competitive prices.

OldNotWIse wrote: »

If a shop doesn't want to accept payments below a certain amount, why do they bother having a visa/credit card machine? It's like telling you they've no change when you hand them a fifty.

They have payment machines to take payment for items. The banks have decided that small businesses, and consumers with our transaction charges, have to carry the can for their failed loan books by charging a high % charge for transactions. So while it's not to big a deal on a €20 purchase on a <€5 this eats to much into their margin.

Same with tills, most have less than a €100 float. If 2 costumers before you buy items with €50s then there will be no change left in the till. That can be blamed on the insurance companies and scumbag robbers.

hardCopy

fricatus wrote: »

Why would we want to move to a cashless society? Common sense should prevail - cash for small purchases, cards for larger ones.

I hate it when we get this guff from the banks about Irish people being "addicted" to carrying around loads of cash, like we're a bunch of superstitious Luddites. They just don't want to handle cash because it's a cost to them, and the media just swallow their argument, hook, line and sinker, without making the opposing case.

Other countries use far more cash than we do, and not just "backward" ones. Japan is a case in point. They're using the Pasmo and Suica cards for limited small purchases (these are public transport cards like the Oyster in London), so there's no going through the bank, or Visa. Even so, cash is still king.

FFS, how hard is it to get into the habit of taking out say €150 at the ATM and then just visiting one again once you're down to about €30?

Cash is a massive cost to everyone who handles it. The retailer has to count and sort the cash before they can lodge it this can take up to an hour in a moderately busy convenience store, they may also need equipment to do this. Their insurer will only cover limited amounts of cash in approved, expensive safes. They may have to pay for CIT pickups if they've got any kind of decent turnover. Most retailers will take in more paper money than coin, so they have to buy coin from the bank, if they take in excess coin they have to count, sort and bag it before deposit, and still they pay a coin deposit charge.

CIT will then transport, count and process the cash before it goes to the bank. Their fees to the retailer have to cover trucks, staff, insurance, fuel, rent etc.

Till shortages are another cost that disappears in a cashless environment.

Cash customers are not subsidising card users.

Yes, Irish people are addicted to cash, we are Europe's biggest users of cash and probably the world's biggest users of coin.

foggy_lad

OldNotWIse wrote: »

40 minutes for a starbucks...seems the poster is frequenting a cafe stuck in a 2007 time warp

Ya have to wait for the kettle to boil..... then take the lid off the tin of Maxwell house... it does take time:D

irishgeo

Its against both visa and Mastercard cardscheme rules to have a min transaction amount. Report them and they will soon stop or risk losing their merchant numbers.

Del2005

irishgeo wrote: »

Its against both visa and Mastercard cardscheme rules to have a min transaction amount. Report them and they will soon stop or risk losing their merchant numbers.

If they don't charge minimum transactions then they'll close down, reporting will just speed up the closure.

And it's easy for Visa and Mastercard to say no minimum fees when they are screwing the retailer with the fees they are charging, if they gave cheaper rates to the businesses for low cost charges then they wouldn't have to have a minimum transaction charge.

jester77

That sounds ridiculous. These costs are a typical part of doing a business and should never be passed on to the customer like this. When water meters are brought in are these places going to charge customers for using their toilet facilities? I thought there was some sort of a recession in Ireland, surely these places should me more than happy to get a customers money.

OldNotWIse

Del2005 wrote: »

If shops are making a loss on the sales they will close there doors. The only way they can avoid surcharges is to build it into the price that everyone pays, or we could get our leaders to force the banks we own to offer competitive prices.



They have payment machines to take payment for items. The banks have decided that small businesses, and consumers with our transaction charges, have to carry the can for their failed loan books by charging a high % charge for transactions. So while it's not to big a deal on a €20 purchase on a <€5 this eats to much into their margin.

Same with tills, most have less than a €100 float. If 2 costumers before you buy items with €50s then there will be no change left in the till. That can be blamed on the insurance companies and scumbag robbers.

Hang on, and excuse my ignorance (I reserve the right to be be wrong ) but if it's a % then why does it matter what the amount is? The smaller the transaction the less they will pay?

ScouseMouse

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Hang on, and excuse my ignorance (I reserve the right to be be wrong ) but if it's a % then why does it matter what the amount is? The smaller the transaction the less they will pay?

A percentage with a minimum fee of xxx

Plus, when it gets batched to the bank, its classed as a transaction which attracts another fee

OldNotWIse

foggy_lad wrote: »

Ya have to wait for the kettle to boil..... then take the lid off the tin of Maxwell house... it does take time:D

Let's not forget about the mandatory b*stardisation of the coffee with cream, caramel, sugar, crushed ice, poppy seeds, lemon treacle fish gut sh1te etc :P

Those things are so far removed from the original substance..they could market them as homeopathic

ScouseMouse

irishgeo wrote: »

Its against both visa and Mastercard cardscheme rules to have a min transaction amount. Report them and they will soon stop or risk losing their merchant numbers.

But then the shop is within its rights not to serve you. So this issue will not occur.

OldNotWIse

superscouse wrote: »

A percentage with a minimum fee of xxx

Plus, when it gets batched to the bank, its classed as a transaction which attracts another fee

ah...nods wisely....strokes imaginary beard...

rubadub

jester77 wrote: »

When water meters are brought in are these places going to charge customers for using their toilet facilities?

Stephens green shopping centre already charge for this. Water charges are already in for some businesses (maybe all). I know where I work we pay a fortune for water each year, and it is of course factored into the prices, some products require more than others so go up more. I am pretty sure in other threads people were moaning about being charged for tap water to drink in restaurants.

If flushing a toilet was costing 37 cent (like the fees on the 2.50 cup in question) then yes, they might well start charging, rather than having the non-cash payers being upset with the rise in prices to cover this. Toilet charges are less likely due to the embarrassment factor, so the people with good bladders usually just have to subsidise the rest.

People are going on like there is no loser in this, if 50% pay by CC then the cups all have to go from 2.50 to about 2.70. This is enough to make people go elsewhere, I no longer go to a chipper near me since chips went up exactly that, 2.50 to 2.70, the alternative chipper is 2.40 with bigger & better chips, the location of the other was the only occasional advantage.
Just imagine the min CC charge was €2 and it might all become more obvious why its done.

jester77 wrote: »

surely these places should me more than happy to get a customers money.

Yes, and they don't want to lose cash paying customers in the process. I would guess they have weighed up the pros & cons.