Wanted: National Rules for Electrical Installations (4th Edition)

E. Fudd

Hi lads,

I'm looking for a copy of the ETCI National Rules for Electrical Installations (4th Edition). Just incase somebody has a spare copy they no longer need.....

Thanks.

bertie 56

Same here !

Thanks

brightspark

Considering they cost € 97.50 I don't think anyone is going to give them away.

http://www.etci.ie/publications/onlinestore.html

sparcocars

If you are an apprentice or third level student then you can get this book at a discounted rate from the etci. You obviously need to prove you are of these.

E. Fudd

brightspark wrote: »

Considering they cost € 97.50 I don't think anyone is going to give them away.

http://www.etci.ie/publications/onlinestore.html

I wasn't suggesting not paying somebody for it. I just thought there may have been an apprentice / student who no longer needed a copy and would have sold it.
I ended up buying one from ECSSA.

bertie 56

" I ended up buying one from ECSSA "

Let me know when you want to get rid of your copy !

Still looking for a second hand one, from a former student / retired elec./etc...


100 € for having the rules is rip off, IMO.

They should be free, accessible for everybody in the web, at least...

HoggyRS

Got it for 40 quid off fás while in phase 2, maybe try hit up someone who dropped out of an apprenticeship that still has the book

E. Fudd

bertie 56 wrote: »

" I ended up buying one from ECSSA "

Let me know when you want to get rid of your copy !

Still looking for a second hand one, from a former student / retired elec./etc...


100 € for having the rules is rip off, IMO.

They should be free, accessible for everybody in the web, at least...

If you're registered with ECSSA or RECI you must own a copy along with all amendments.

bertie 56

E. Fudd wrote: »

If you're registered with ECSSA or RECI you must own a copy along with all amendments.

Hi there,

No, not registered, not even electrician myself !

Just curious !

2011

bertie 56 wrote: »

100 € for having the rules is rip off, IMO

Not really when you consider that those that write ET101 do so for free.

They should be free, accessible for everybody in the web, at least...

Why? Who should cover this cost?

bertie 56

2011 wrote: »

Not really when you consider that those that write ET101 do so for free.

If that's true, fair play to them !
Errmm, wait, so where goes the money then ? :rolleyes:

bertie 56

Why? Who should cover this cost?[/QUOTE]

The State should cover the cost. Above all, it is the state that edit the laws and ask you ( and me ) to follow them ( and can fine you if you don't follow them, am I right ? )

" Ignorantia juris non excusat " , that mean " ignorance of the law does not excuse "
Fair enough, but then put the law easily accessible to everybody.

2011

bertie 56 wrote: »

If that's true, fair play to them !

It is, so yes fair play.

Errmm, wait, so where goes the money then ? :rolleyes:

Overheads.

The State should cover the cost.

Obviously can only get this money from the taxpayer.
So essentially you think that the taxpayer should provide electricians with the regulations for free?
If you are not an electrician what do you want the regulations for?
They are of little use without training.
What other regulations do you think the should the tax payer fund and why?

Above all, it is the state that edit the laws and ask you ( and me ) to follow them ( and can fine you if you don't follow them, am I right ? )

Here are some details on recent legislation for free.

" Ignorantia juris non excusat " , that mean " ignorance of the law does not excuse "
Fair enough, but then put the law easily accessible to everybody.

seaniefr

bertie 56 wrote: »

Why? Who should cover this cost?

The State should cover the cost. Above all, it is the state that edit the laws and ask you ( and me ) to follow them ( and can fine you if you don't follow them, am I right ? )

" Ignorantia juris non excusat " , that mean " ignorance of the law does not excuse "
Fair enough, but then put the law easily accessible to everybody.[/QUOTE]
So what is your backround?
FYI health & safety legislation is the only free stuff besides S.I's that i know of aside from the links quoted above
you have to PAY for everything else!

bertie 56

Hi everybody,

Thanks for your answers you all.

" 2011 ", your link is interesting, and it reflects exactly what I wanted to say.
In this link, I learned for example what is exactly " Minor Electrical Works" , and the fact that these works don't require the issuance of a Certificate .
That's the law, I know it now , just because it was there for free .
I know what I can do if I'm not electrician, And what I can't.
You know what I mean ?

You were asking me :
" you think that the taxpayer should provide electricians with the regulations for free? "
But, is there electricity only in the electrician's houses ???
Regulations are for everybody, it is here to protect everybody, your new-born baby, as your grand ma !
The taxpayer is paying to have a Criminal Law, not only the criminals, no ?


Now, you might be intrigued why I'm interested in the Wiring Rules...

Can I ask two simple questions before explaining ?

1 - You have to put a 1 meter earth-rod for a domestic house. You have the choice of two places (both at the same distance of the fuse box ) :

A : under the carport ?(600 mm of dry stones, and 400 mm of dry soil under )
B : in the soil , West of the house ( 1 meter of wet soil )


2 - How many sockets are you allowed to put in a radial circuit ( 2.5mm2 wires)

No trap-questions, just very simple ones...

2011

1. Under a carport would not be a good choice as the soil there would tend to be quite dry. Wetter soil will conduct better, so with everything else equal this would be preferable.

2. The maximum number of points on a radial socket circuit is 10 (a double socket counts as a point). This circuit should supply no more than 2 rooms. A hall does not count as a room.

frankmul

I thought that the ETCI rule were not a legal document?,

2011

bertie 56 wrote: »

But, is there electricity only in the electrician's houses ???
Regulations are for everybody, it is here to protect everybody, your new-born baby, as your grand ma !

The regulations are primarily aimed at those that carry out electrical work, electrical design work and practically nobody else. But if you would like a copy you are entitled to buy a copy just like the rest of us. However without some sort of relevant training they will be of little use to you. I don't fancy your chances of getting the hard pressed taxpayer to furnish you with a copy. I would expect that the government could find better ways to waste spend our money.

By all means ask electrical questions here and you may get useful answers for free from some posters (many are electrical apprentices, electricians or electrical engineers).

bertie 56

Thanks, but according to my electrician, you are wrong !

1 - He didn't see any problem to put the earth-rod under the carport

2 - For him, a radial circuit has a maximum of 2 or 3 double sockets ( I like the precision, 2 or 3 ) :eek:
( A ring circuit is 10 or 12 , according to him ... )


Now, what I do ?

Do I trust him because he is qualify and close my eyes ?
Or do I try to educate myself a bit and " control" what he is doing ?

Wouldn't it be interested to know what is the maximum earthing resistance allowance in Ireland? ( 100 ohms is the norm in my country )
I'm interested to know this for the day he is coming to test the earth ( if he does ! ): I want more than " that's fine, it will do the job..."
And this is only one question I have among many others !

So, for this, yes, having access freely to the Wiring Rules would be great.
I don't want to pay 100 € to have them, I'm paying a professional who is suppose to know them already !


Ah, by the way, my electrician is fully qualify, fully certified, fully insured, and fully registered with one of the two " Electrical Safety Supervisory Bodies appointed by the Commission for Energy", as they call it ... :rolleyes:

2011

There are a number of options open to you:

1) Ring the ETCI and ask them directly for free.
2) Get a 2nd opinion on this forum or from another electrician.
3) Buy ET101 for about €100
4) Ring the ECSSA or RECI (which ever he is with).

Some nice person may tell you the page and rule number if you are lucky.

Regarding the earth electrode, read my post carefully. I did not say it was not permitted to install one in a carport.

Has your electrician started this work yet?

tomdempsey200

bertie 56 wrote: »

Wouldn't it be interested to know what is the maximum earthing resistance allowance in Ireland? ( 100 ohms is the norm in my country )

we're not required to measure earth electrode resistance for installation work here afaik


there's 3 references to measurement in the index but they all relate to TT systems

frankmul

100 ohms for a TT system, we use a TNCS here.
The English rules bs7671 can be found on line if you try hard enough and is similar to ours.

tomdempsey200

i wouldn't be too worried about the fact that he wants less points per circuit anyhow


even though 2/3 and 10/12 are not the theoretical maximum

he may consider it the best design for your installation...hard to say

2011

If you were to have only 2 or 3 sockets per circuit you either have very few sockets or the price will go through the roof. Unless there is something very unusual with this installation your electrician is taking the p!ss.

tomdempsey200

2011 wrote: »

If you were to have only 2 or 3 sockets per circuit you either have very few sockets or the price will go through the roof. Unless there is something very unusual with this installation or your electrician is taking the p!ss.

kitchen..


utility..

2011

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

kitchen..


utility..

Perhaps, but the OP's electrician is saying "For him, a radial circuit has a maximum of 2 or 3 double sockets ( I like the precision, 2 or 3 )
( A ring circuit is 10 or 12 , according to him ... )".

So he is applying this across the board, 2 or 3 is not the maximum in every case.

tomdempsey200

well yes ...it's not the max


but he may prefer 3 points per cct for kitchen and utility

and maybe separate radial per room also elsewhere


depending on the circumstances


playing devils advocate..

2011

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

well yes ...it's not the max


but he may prefer 3 points per cct for kitchen and dining

and maybe separate radial per room also elsewhere


depending on the circumstances


playing devils advocate..

He may have valid reasons, but that is not his position. He has stated that I am incorrect in saying that 10 is the maximum on a radial. This is incorrect. I am sure you have put more than 3 on a radial ? According to this electrician you are not permitted to. Read post #20

tomdempsey200

2011 wrote: »

He may have valid reasons, but that is not his position. He has stated that I am incorrect in saying that 10 is the maximum on a radial. This is incorrect. I am sure you have put more than 3 on a radial ? According to this electrician you are not permitted to. Read post #20

i have a few drinks on me now:) but isn't the OP the 'domestic' customer here

relaying the contractors(alleged) views on final socket circuits

bertie 56

2011 wrote: »

There are a number of options open to you:

1) Ring the ETCI and ask them directly for free.
2) Get a 2nd opinion on this forum or from another electrician.
3) Buy ET101 for about €100
4) Ring the ECSSA or RECI (which ever he is with).

Some nice person may tell you the page and rule number if you are lucky.

Regarding the earth electrode, read my post carefully. I did not say it was not permitted to install one in a carport.

Has your electrician started this work yet?

That is good tips, 2011, thanks.

Yes, I understood your post about the carport. In my case, there were two solutions, and I was just surprised the electrician took the worse one !
I finally put the earth rod in the 1meter wet soil : that make sense .

He did put a fuse box, couple of RCD's and MCB's, few sockets and send the cert , hoping to have a temporary supply for me in the house.
The cert has been rejected :mad: , so we are at this point now.
I did the electric plan of the house (place of lights/sockets/oven, etc...) the usual.
He hasn't looked at the plan precisely yet.


PS : don't get me wrong, I don't want everything for free. Every worker deserves his wages. I'm not whining about not having the book send to my place. A free web site with all the information is plenty.
Dublin Library seems to have the book available to public, I'll be happy to have something similar locally.

bertie 56

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

i have a few drinks on me now:) but isn't the OP the 'domestic' customer here

relaying the contractors(alleged) views on final socket circuits

I sometimes have difficulties to understand, that's true
When it comes to serious things as the electricity, for example, I make sure that at the end, I understand everything fully, though.
I did draw what he was explaining me, and yes, I confirm, his maximum for a radial circuit is 2 or 3, and for a ring one 10 or 12.
We were talking about bedrooms,living, etc... not kitchen or specific circuits ( which will be done later )

tomdempsey200

ok.. apologies to 2011 and yourself
i lost track of the thread there

the cert has been rejected? I better not ask what that's about about...

bertie 56

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

the cert has been rejected? I better not ask what that's about about...

The cert has been rejected because I didn't have enough sockets / lights... in the house. The electrician did put only few sockets , as a temporary supply. It was properly done by himself , in a fuse box with RCD's / MCB's .The target was to get rid of this f..ing generator !
Didn't work...:(

Sir Arthur Daley

bertie 56 wrote: »

The cert has been rejected because I didn't have enough sockets / lights... in the house. The electrician did put only few sockets , as a temporary supply. It was properly done by himself , in a fuse box with RCD's / MCB's .The target was to get rid of this f..ing generator !
Didn't work...:(

A cert would not be rejected for that reason.

bertie 56

WikiHow wrote: »

A cert would not be rejected for that reason.

It was ! It's hand-written on it !
No kidding...

see my post at the time here :

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057032606

Sir Arthur Daley

bertie 56 wrote: »

It was ! It's hand-written on it !
No kidding...

see my post at the time here :

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057032606

That thread is a train wreck, there must be some issue with this cert that it got rejected, i.e contractors insurance expired, incomplete, wrong mrpn could be anything.

bertie 56

WikiHow wrote: »

That thread is a train wreck, there must be some issue with this cert that it got rejected, i.e contractors insurance expired, incomplete, wrong mrpn could be anything.

None of this.
If you still don't believe, I can scan the cert and post it here , no problem.

Sir Arthur Daley

bertie 56 wrote: »

None of this.
If you still don't believe, I can scan the cert and post it here , no problem.

Which cert the one last year or this new one?

bertie 56

WikiHow wrote: »

Which cert the one last year or this new one?

I had only one cert done.
As said in posts 32 and 35 : " the electrician did put a fuse box, couple of RCD's and MCB's, few sockets and send the cert , hoping to have a temporary supply for me in the house.
The cert has been rejected"

tomdempsey200

bertie 56 wrote: »

I had only one cert done.
As said in posts 32 and 35 : " the electrician did put a fuse box, couple of RCD's and MCB's, few sockets and send the cert , hoping to have a temporary supply for me in the house.
The cert has been rejected"

temp supplies at the installation were done away with around 08

unless they're back again

Sir Arthur Daley

bertie 56 wrote: »

The cert has been rejected"

Did they post or email the cert back to you?

2011

Just for clarity I did a quick check this am, here is what I found:

National Rules for Electrical installations (ET101:2008)
Annex 55A (Informative) "Final Circuit Arrangements" (page 307)
Section 4.2 "Radial final circuits for socket-outlets and appliances in domestic and similar installations"

"Recommended maximum number of points: 10 (see definition of "point"). One point may serve a single or double socket-outlet."

Most/all electrical apprentices and electricians would consider this to be pretty fundament. I would be concerned if an electrical contractor wiring my home was not familiar with basics of ET101. I suspect that there may be more to your completion certificate being rejected than you are aware of. If it were me I would demand that the ECSSA or RECI give a reason for the rejection of this certificate in writing and resolve same immediately. The ECSSA and RECI need to accept some responsibility for their members who after all are the only people legally permitted to wire a domestic installation.

As tomdempsey200 has suggested there can be many good reasons to have far less than 10 sockets on a radial circuit. In some cases one may make sense. A good design should achieve a balance between the number of circuits and cost.

bertie 56

2011 wrote: »

Just for clarity I did a quick check this am, here is what I found:

National Rules for Electrical installations (ET101:2008)
Annex 55A (Informative) "Final Circuit Arrangements" (page 307)
Section 4.2 "Radial final circuits for socket-outlets and appliances in domestic and similar installations"

"Recommended maximum number of points: 10 (see definition of "point"). One point may serve a single or double socket-outlet."

Most/all electrical apprentices and electricians would consider this to be pretty fundament. I would be concerned if an electrical contractor wiring my home was not familiar with basics of ET101. I suspect that there may be more to your completion certificate being rejected than you are aware of. If it were me I would demand that the ECSSA or RECI give a reason for the rejection of this certificate in writing and resolve same immediately. The ECSSA and RECI need to accept some responsibility for their members who after all are the only people legally permitted to wire a domestic installation.

As tomdempsey200 has suggested there can be many good reasons to have far less than 10 sockets on a radial circuit. In some cases one may make sense. A good design should achieve a balance between the number of circuits and cost.

Thanks, 2011, that's very clear. I did got this information as well from the ETCI web-site, in the FAQ section. Since I don't know if this web-page is up-to-date with the 2008 Rules ( neither with the 2011 amendments) , it is good that you've precise it, straight from the book. Thanks for this.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough in my explanations , so here is a resume :

- Nov 2013 : In my new-build house, a registered electrician fit a fuse box, few RCD's , few breakers and connect few sockets in the house. Earthing is done as well.
The pole is in place, ESB has the cables in the pole, waiting for connection. The outside ESB box is in place, with hockey stick and all.A big armored cable goes out from the fuse box, waiting for connection in the ESB box.
Everything is ready, he send the cert and we got it back refused, with the reason that installation is not complete.

I kept working with the generator then.

- March 2014 : the house is more or less ready for wiring, I'll prepare the house wiring plan ( where goes the sockets , lights, washing machine and all ). I'll concentrate in all rooms except kitchen, since the part of the house where the kitchen goes is not ready yet. In order to understand a bit how this works, and to prepare the wiring, I show briefly the plans to the electrician, and ask him few general questions , like how many sockets can you put in one same line.
It's a timber frame house. I will have to fit the pipes of the Heat Recovery System, the plumber pipes, etc, and don't want to have to many big holes in the structural ceiling joists. There is as well the membrane , the fewer holes in it, the better.
That's why I was asking him these questions, to see where we are going.
And as well because I'm interested to know more about this.

I don't intend to do all the electric work on my own. I don't have the experience for this, and even if I can learn how to do it, I won't be confident enough to do it.
And anyway, I don't have the choice, the Cert has to be sign by a registered guy.

Hope that ( long ) thread will clarify my case

2011

Ok, that is making a bit more sense.

Sir Arthur Daley

bertie 56 wrote: »

Everything is ready, he send the cert and we got it back refused, with the reason that installation is not complete.

That reason is nonsensical, there is some other reason that the electrician is not telling you about, he is being economical with the truth on some matter.

bertie 56

WikiHow wrote: »

Did they post or email the cert back to you?

Hi there,

They send the paper to my electrician, who brought it to me, along with the copy of the cert he send.

It is the electrician that explain me that they refused the cert because I don't have enough sockets( and no lights and no fixed appliance outlets).
I kind of trust him on this one, Reci has only these informations to make their mind :

- MPRN number
- My name
- Type of premise ( house )
- date of installation
- Type of installation ( new)
- number of lights / sockets/ fixed appliance outlets
- resistance of protective conductor
- insulation resistance
-name / address/ signature/ certification no of the electrician.

Nobody came on-site .


Here is the refusal from RECI :

frankmul

I think reci and essca we're trying to clamp down on people sending in Certs to get supply to a house during construction, a temp supply without putting up a cabinet away from the house. Some of these houses were never getting certified afterwards. Why bother when you have a supply already.

2011

bertie 56 wrote: »

It is the electrician that explain me that they refused the cert because I don't have enough sockets( and no lights and no fixed appliance outlets).

No lights or fixed appliances, well it is called a completion certificate!
No wonder, this does not sound very complete :cool:

I kind of trust him on this one

You "kind of trust" him? :eek:
The same electrician that told you that a maximum of 3 sockets are permitted on a radial?

tomdempsey200

frankmul wrote: »

I think reci and essca we're trying to clamp down on people sending in Certs to get supply to a house during construction, a temp supply without putting up a cabinet away from the house. Some of these houses were never getting certified afterwards. Why bother when you have a supply already.

that's all it is..

house with no lights= cert refused


if the electrician had put in the full number of lights and sockets he would have got supply

however he'd be leaving himself open to reci issues and insurance claims on the temporary if there was an accident etc.

frankmul

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

that's all it is..



if the electrician had put in the full number of lights and sockets he would have got supply

however he'd be leaving himself open to reci issues and insurance claims on the temporary if there was an accident etc.

Might be fun trying to explain that cert to an inspector

2011

frankmul wrote: »

Might be fun trying to explain that cert to an inspector

You would be surprised!
Inspectors are generally very reluctant to take any meaningful action.