Stay with APS-C or go full frame?

FoxT

Hi Gearheads!
I am a somewhat experienced amateur, and I shoot mainly street scenes and friends/family/social occasions.
Occasionally I'll shoot some soccer but I do less of that now.

I have

canon 40D
Sigma 10-20
Sigma 17-70 f/2.8 - 4.5, no IS
50mm f/1.4
70-200 f/2.8 no IS.

==========

Now, this setup has worked well and covers pretty much all situations I find myself in.
I am particularly pleased with the ergonomics of the 40D - it is a joy to use.


The primary limitation of the above is that I'd like higher ISO sensitivity than the 40D has to offer.
Also, the 50mm f/1.4 is a bit long for, say photos of family meals etc.

==========

So, I am thinking of upgrading primarily to get better performance at high ISO.
This will be a 2014 operation, and budget will be eu2000 to eu3000.

The first question, for me, is whether or not to consider a full frame body.

My thought process has been as follows:

My most-used lens today is the 17-70. It wont work on FF, I'll need to replace that.
Obvious candidate is a Canon 24-105 f/4. thats an extra eu900 or so...ouch!

If I upgrade to an APS-C camera, the obvious choice is the 7D. Thats about eu1300
For FF, I'd be looking at the 6D, about eu1700. ->eu400 premium
But I'd also need the 24-105, ..................->eu900

So, fullframe upgrade will cost double what an APS-C upgrade will. 7D has better AF capapbilities (apparently) than 6D.
6D viewfinder is amazing, though

Anyway, Is FF twice as good?


As an aside, the emergence of the Sigma 18-35 f/1.8 adds another intriguing option into the mix if I stay with APS-C..

Any thoughts, suggestions, inspirations would be welcome.


Thanks!

Alanstrainor

You're kind of stuck in the sense that if you upgrade all your lenses will need to be changed also as you're moving from crop to full frame. Which is a complete pain in the nuts.

It's a toughy, and one I've been thinking about for quite a while about now. I'm not in in the know enough to educate you on the benefits of full frame, however it's by no means an essential to shoot full frame.

dirtyghettokid

i am not sure i would go FF, if i were to do it again. my suggestion:
get a 7D (or even 70D) and a 35mm prime lens (because you said 50 was too long)

M5

Sounds like your heavily invested in crop glass... only your 200mm and 50mm lenses are compatible.

perhaps wait for the new 7D? the 70d looks excellent and the 7D will probably uses the same sensor

The other option is to sell your lenses and get a 24-70 or 24-105 with a 6d... Maybe see what you could get for your glass?

Myksyk

Harvey Norman are doing a Canon 6d with L-series EF24-105mm IS USM lens for €2,999. Best price they'd give was €2,799. Canon are giving a €190 cash-back deal with the 6D at the moment so that brings it to €2,609. I think with a bit of haggling you might get them to give the package for €2,500 or at least throw in a 32G card or something. Plus they throw in an 8" tablet worth €200 for free (good for the kids)! Added to this you can pay some or all on flexirent which eases the pain. Pretty good deal I think as even on Pixmania that lens goes for over a €1000. Local camera shop - best offer there €2,999.

Myksyk

Got that wrong. HN would do it for €2,699 plus €190 cash-back (€2,509) plus free tablet (€200) plus free day's canon training (€150) plus the option of interest free flexirent. I'm tempted. In fairness to local shop (Whelans) they got back to me and offered the kit at €2,699 plus €190 cash-back.

Zillah

I've been thinking about the same lately myself, and I have a similar lens collection. What's the easiest way to check which lenses are APS-C calibrated? I know at least one of mine is, not sure about the others off the top of my head.

EDIT: Oh, here we are http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikon_DX_format

magicbastarder

Myksyk wrote: »

Harvey Norman are doing a Canon 6d with L-series EF24-105mm IS USM lens for €2,999. Best price they'd give was €2,799.

my cousin bought one in gunns (i'm fairly sure with the same lens) a few months ago for cheaper than HN's best price. I'm not going to say what the price was, lest they not be able to offer the same price now, but they certainly were the cheapest at the time - and 10% cheaper than conn's.

Zascar

I'm sort of in a similar situation but won't be changing any time soon unfortunately. I have the Canon 600D (crop sensor) and my main lens is the 24-105mm. Now I reckon the 24-105mm on a full frame is pretty much a near perfect combination (which is why you so many people/pros using it) - however on a crop its just not wide enough so I have to have the Sigma 10-20mm. I also have a 50mm prime which I agree is too long, I'm looking into a prime lens in the 28 to 35mm range but not sure which right now.

Now the new Sigma 18-35mm makes things very interesting. I'm very tempted - f1.8 through the range is huge and I think I could really benefit with those extra stop for low light shooting. But, 35mm is not very long

I'm wondering should I replace the 50m and the 10-20 with the sigma - but then is there any point in having both?

I also have the 70-200 F4 (non-is) and then I have a Sigma 105mm f2.8 (non IS) but I'd prefer the Canon L.

No magic answer really!

PixelTrawler

OP, You say you want your 50mm to be wider and you want cleaner high iso. Go full frame. Ok so you have to reset your lense collection. Not that big a deal in the long run. A good starting collection could be the 17-40 and 24-105 to go with the 50 you have. Pick them up second hand for about 550 and 650.

Is full frame twice good? Impossible to answer. Both have pros and cons. I switched to full frame a few years ago but may add a 7d to get a bit of range out of my 100-400.

As for cameras, I picked up a 5d mark 3 recently with accessories for 2200. You can save a lot going used. You'd get a mark 2 for 1100 and 6d new is great value at the moment.

Myksyk

Second correction ... sorry ... flexirent is not interest free. I bought a mac recently and thought it was with flexirent but it was actually with QuickCredit which is interest free.

W0LFMAN

After A year thinking about 7D or 5D mark 2...
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
I went 5D mark 2.

No regrets.

pixbyjohn

Zillah wrote: »

I've been thinking about the same lately myself, and I have a similar lens collection. What's the easiest way to check which lenses are APS-C calibrated? I know at least one of mine is, not sure about the others off the top of my head.

EDIT: Oh, here we are http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikon_DX_format

I take it you are using Nikon. You can use all the Nikon/Nikon fit lens on a Nikon full frame body. The full frame sensor crops to take the aps-c type lens. At least that is the way my D700 does it.

Zillah

pixbyjohn wrote: »

I take it you are using Nikon. You can use all the Nikon/Nikon fit lens on a Nikon full frame body. The full frame sensor crops to take the aps-c type lens. At least that is the way my D700 does it.

I'll add it to my "Reasons Nikon is better" list :pac:

donncha

I went from a Canon 40D to a Canon 6D and the 24-105mm lens and I love the new camera. 24mm on a full frame lens is around the same as 18mm on my old Sigma lens I think but this camera can focus really well in the dark and ISO performance is crazy. I love that the Auto ISO is from 100 instead of 400 on the 40D. It takes pretty good movies too.

FoxT

Thanks for all your comments & advice.
I've bought a 5D on adverts, it doesnt have the ISO I seek, but it will be interesting to play with the 50 & 70-200 & get a feel for FF vs crop in general, before I pull the trigger!

Cheers

-Foxt

W0LFMAN

FoxT wrote: »

Thanks for all your comments & advice.
I've bought a 5D on adverts, it doesnt have the ISO I seek, but it will be interesting to play with the 50 & 70-200 & get a feel for FF vs crop in general, before I pull the trigger!

Cheers

-Foxt

How are you finding the camera already?

I've gone to 5D Mk2 and find it great. Missing the 60fps on Video and the extra focus points, but the Image is fantastic.

Zascar

Very interested to hear your thoughts guys so keep em coming!

Right now I'm thinking about the Sigma 18-35mm f1.8 which is getting cracking reviews - but still want to upgrade my 600d. Not sure if going to 60d is worth it - and the 7d although appealing is kinds of now! The new 7d mk2 will be great but will be expensive too! There's no easy answer really!

FoxT

W0LFMAN wrote: »

How are you finding the camera already?

I've gone to 5D Mk2 and find it great. Missing the 60fps on Video and the extra focus points, but the Image is fantastic.

ehhm, I havent got it yet! just struck a deal on adverts this evening. Collecting it tomorrow, I hope!

FoxT

Well, a 5D has been obtained....2 simple test shots below;






First impressions, compared to 40D
- 5D user interface not quite as polished as 40D, menus a bit clunky, ISO not displayed in viewfinder unless you are actually changing it
- Camera feels slower, less responsive (but still fine)
- That viewfinder!! Is big! I could rear a small family in there, lovely!
- Image quality very good
- ISO performance about the same. Excellent up to ISO 400 then the graph starts going south...

and, my 50 & 70-200 feel like brand new lenses on this camera! DOF control is excellent, compared to a crop, and out-of focus areas nice & creamy.

Happy camper so far, I got me a good FF camera for eu475

-FoxT

Zascar

Small viewfinder is something I find very annoying, I have to adjust to see the speed and dof etc. I tried a Nikon D700 once and the viewfinder seemed twice as big!! I wonder are the 60d, 7D etc any bigger than what I have now?

You got a great deal there FoxT, full frame for that money is amazing. Yes it might be a bit old but its cracking value

W0LFMAN

For the money you spend and the few years use you'll get out of it. I would think you would and might struggle to go back to Crop sensor.

I know I will..

FoxT

spent the day today playing with it & a 50mm 1.4.

On an APS-C sensor, the 50mm is predictable ( to me, anyway) across all apertures, long-ish, but even wide open delivers a depth of field that I have been able to predict.

On the 5D, it is a completely different animal! quite a bit wider, and, between f/1.4 & 2.8, delivers tiny DOF, along with very strong vignetting. DOF at f/2.8 on FF is about the same as DOF at 1.4 on APS-C....but the vignetting throws another variable into the pot. This is fun! I havent decided if it is better, that will take me weeks, but I'm having a bit of craic so far with it.

-FoxT

FoxT

Well, a few hundred shots later on the 5D....

1 - managing DOF is crucial. there is about a 1.6 stop difference between FF & APS-C, ie, if you shoot at f/4 on an APS-C and shoot from same position, for same photo, (with longer lens) on FF, then you need to close down the aperture about 1.5 stops to achieve the same DOF. Your lower shutter speed limit will be identical in both cases. In poorly lit conditions you must increase the ISO on a FF before you are forced to do it on an APS-C.
ie suppose you have a 50mm f/4 on APS-C, and you need 1/80s shutter speed. for same FOV on FF , you will need an 85mm lens and aperture down to f/6 approx., to maintain your DOF. to maintain a 1/80s shutter speed, you will have to dial up the ISO on the FF to about 1.5 stops faster than you would on the APS-C.

Picture quality will be more or less the same, except that out of focus (Bokeh) will be smoother on the FF. Also , for a given enlargement size, the FF result will be sharper.

Overall, a 10-15% improvement.

But - BUT...at what cost?

I want to buy a better general purpose lens than the one I have atm. My choice is 17-55 f/2.8 for the 40D, or a 24-105 f/4 for the 5D. the latter is more expensive, and reviews indicate that it performs less well than the 17-55. An earlier poster has indicated that he shoots with the 24-105 regularly at f/5.6 , to maintain his desired DOF, whilst the17-55 seems to deliver same dof at f/4.
The Big Plus so far is that my 70-200 f/2.8 performs magnificently in the 5D, and just 'well' on the 40D.


TLDR?
For me , FF offers better quality in certain situations. Don't be misled by the fact that FF sensors are about 1.5 stops better than APS-C ones - you gobble that gain up fast because you have to close the aperture down by 1.5 stops to retain required DOF - so it is a wash, 80% of the time (for me)

FF lenses are eye wateringly expensive, and perform poorly at their widest aperture (distortion, vignetting, etc) - so you have to stop them down a bot anyway, compared to EF-S lenses.

Way TLDR?

FF is not jumping out at me as the way forward. Mind not made up, but leaning towards sticking with APS-C. I'll keep the 5D for a while though, it is excellent in some situations.

-FoxT

Zascar

Thanks that's really useful and interesting!

FoxT

found myself at a gig this evening (see random photo thread). Anyway, if you are an amateur photographer that likes to have a couple of beers & shoot in crap light situations, you will want an f/1.4 lens.

50mm is great on FF,but can be a bit short. An 85mm f/1.4 would be nice, but costs a fortune. And! 85mm at f/1.4 on a FF camera will offer tiny DOF.

One option is to buy a used 40D or similar, and use your 50 on that. you get an 80mm equivalent fov, the shutter speed you need, and a bit extra DOF. Works!

I shoot mainly social situations, weddings, parties, friends etc, almost all in bad light. Tonight I found myself swapping the 50 f/1.4 between the 5D & 40D & got decent shots from both. For me there is not a clear 'FF is better' message emerging - I got shots I am happy with from both bodies, and with 2 bodies I got more than I could have got with either one on its own.

-FoxT

Zascar

I've been reading up this evening following this post and some other stuff. I'm certain now that for me there is no rush at all to go Full Frame - so now I can concentrate on the right crop gear to get. Firstly I'm fairly set on getting a Sigma 18-35mm f1.8 - gets cracking reviews all over the place and I wanted a fast wide prime but this does the job of several of them apparently.

Next, I'm thinking body and I think I just want to go to a 7D now. There are a few aspects of it that are very appealing to me. It's the old reliable, and they are cheap 2nd hand now too.

Tenshot

Very interesting discussion; thanks FoxT.

I've been thinking about moving to full frame for the past couple of months and this has really given me some food for thought. I was contemplating selling my crop-sensor gear to help fund the move, but you've definitely swayed me towards holding onto it for a while to give me some extra flexibility, esp. in indoor situations.

(The point about the vignetting and reduced depth of field on full frame was particularly helpful; hadn't really been factoring that in at all.)

FoxT

Thanks!
I will add... this is my personal experience with a 40D vs 5D. Both are old, in camera-year terms. I am sure there are people here who have transitioned between 4/3,APS-C, and FF , in one direction or another, I'd love to hear about their experiences.

-FoxT

W0LFMAN

Very very Interesting read.. would love to hear your opinion comparing a 7D and a 5D Mk2. (^.^)

I'm Fairly new to FF myself, Came from a bunch of Crop Sensors 350D--->400D-->30D--->50D then to 5DM2 without really understanding the FOV and DOF and how it counter-act it's effects with ISO control and F-stops, so I Find your break down greatly appreciated.

However, it does get somewhat confusing and my mind feels blow.

!!!!!!!
(*.*)

Regarding your choice in lenses and the 17-55 f/2.8 for the 40D, or the 24-105 f/4 for the 5D option.?. I have a 17-85 F4.5/5.6 and a 24-105 F/4 and honestly I don't know if my advice would be useful to you. I think someone that is advanced as yourself really needs to find a group or a bunch or photographers and ask to Play with their Lens. No matter how much research you can do online I think your much more of a hands on person you can see and describe the answers very well.

I never mind sharing a lens, especially when advice is freely given.

But you have put a picture in my thoughts right now, regarding my new FF.

magicbastarder

so full frame is the preamp and the crop sensors is the power amp?

W0LFMAN

Good choice of words..

Zascar

So what's the best choice for an upgrade in crop sensor? I have a 600d, thinking of going to either a 7d or maybe 60d bit not sure. 7d is a bit old these days but has some nice advantages over the 60d

dirtyghettokid

a replacement of the 7d is due soon, and there is the 70d also.

MarkN

Zascar if you want to try out the 18-35 I don't have a problem meeting up and letting you shoot with mine. Great lens for outdoor stuff, also works indoors but needs a flash in many indoor situations when the light starts to turn to evening - a Speedlite is on my list.

FoxT - try out keaphotos.com or hdew.co.uk both sites sell the 24-105 for approx 600 (in fact HDEW had it for 587 or so last week). HDEW will do a 3 year warranty although it's not a Canon warranty.

FoxT

Well, a few weeks into 5D ownership, and I was at a social occasion today.


5D, ISO 400 50mm f/1.6




I like this shot. There is nothing special about it, of course, it is a simple photo of a person I know in a relaxed social situation.

Taken in artificial light, no flash. Shot in RAW, color correction & bit of local contrast applied. In a crap location with no background visual interest. So, blurring the background is nice.

Can you do this with a crop sensor?

Well, even with a 35mm f/1.4 you wont get the b/g blurred as much on an APS-C. It would be acceptable & nothing wrong with it... but you'd need a eu1000+ prime to do it with.

An old 5D with a 50mm f/1.4 does it grand.

There are definitely situations where the FF pays off.

FoxT

5D 50mm, f/2.0, artificial light no flash




Ladies are in focus, boy is not. On an APS-C this would not have been an issue. (a 35mm f/1.4 would have been required though, for similar results) So there is definitely a learning curve.

I find myself doing a lot of 'DOF bracketing' with the 5D. In indoor situations, shoot at multiple wide aperture settings in the hope that you will nail it.

BTW, I find 5D AF in these indoor/poor light/wide aperture / shallow DOF situations to be excellent. Marginally better than the 40D, which is,itself, very good.

And one final caveat.
What I aspire to is to take 'good quality snapshots' in generally poorly lit indoor situations, avoid flash as much as possible, and deliver results that are as natural-looking as I can. I shoot RAW & correct afterwards in lightroom.

So, this series of posts is not about 'FF vs APS-C' . It is about 'FF vs APSC - FOR ME.
My posts are about 'FF vs APS-C in badly lit social environments, no flash if possible, high ISO, shallow DOF, and while shooting be as unobtrusive as possible. Results need to be good enough to deliver a high quality medium sized print (8" by 10" or 10" by 10")

So far, for the stuff I do, I find roughly

Take 100 shots with 40D
- Discard 50
- 30 OK
-20 good

Take 100 shots with 5D
- Discard 70
- 25 OK
- 5 Excellent

Now, by ' Excellent' I mean the shot of the man in the previous post.

It defo takes practice to nail shots like that. I'm not there yet!

Anyway, hope this has been of interest.

-FoxT

dirtyghettokid

its interesting you find the AF good on the 5d. i find the af on my 5d2 to be atrocious! couple that with the 50mm f/1.4 that has front focus issues & i get really poor results

FoxT

dirtyghettokid wrote: »

its interesting you find the AF good on the 5d. i find the af on my 5d2 to be atrocious! couple that with the 50mm f/1.4 that has front focus issues & i get really poor results

Does the AF microadjust not help?

I had an interesting issue with my 40D a couple years back when I bought a 70-200 f/2.8. All my lenses focused well on the 40D, including the 50 f/1.4, but the 70-200 did not. Sent lens for a check & was told it was perfect. Sent the body off & they were able to recalibrate the AF so it worked perfectly on all lenses, & has done since. Cost about eu180 or so, was well worth it.
I used these guys: http://www.fixationuk.com/Fixation/Fixation%20-%20Home/Fixation%20-%20Home.html

-FoxT

dirtyghettokid

haven't touched micro-adjust tbh. i wouldn't have the money to calibrate my equipment either, but it's something i do hope to do one day!

Zascar

How do you find the wider full frame sensor with your lenses that you were used to on your crop? The one thing that interests me is the fact that my 24-104mm on my crop is just not wide enough - - but on a ff its plenty wide so its the perfect range really. I assume you'd have less of a need to swap lenses. What about using a zoom and having less reach?

If only that new Sigma 18-35mm f1.8 worked on full frame!

FoxT

I have 2 FF-capable lenses, a 50mm f/1.4 & 70-200 f/2.8 .

For indoor social situations the 50 is way better on the FF - on the crop it is a short telephoto, not at all wide enough.

I use the 70-200 for shooting soccer on the crop. I wouldn't consider using it on the FF, way too short. 200mm on the crop is just barely long enough!

for general walking around, the 70-200 is more useful on the FF I find, and delivers sharper results too.


-FoxT