Flush ATF or not?

busterjones

Hi -

Just bought a 2005 Volvo XC90 - not everyone's cup of tea but I love it - seems in very good condition and I'm very pleased with it.

It's a 2.4 auto diesel. 100k miles, new NCT and fvsh.

(Certainly to the me) the gear change is very smooth but on checking the ATF today it looks very dark - from reading about this I'm either:

1. Screwed as the transmission is on the way out
2. I need to flush the system and all should be fine
3. I should only change fluid but not flush
4. Leave it as it is as this is expected and changing could do more damage e.g. http://community.cartalk.com/discussion/2126795/2001-volvo-s40-transmission-fluid-change

Conflicting views have me confused ( and worried!) - I trust you guys so any personal experience or knowledge would be massively appreciated.

Cheers,

BJ

Popoutman

If it smells burned, change it. Plan on changing it for peace of mind anyway at some stage on the next while..

kuro2k

I don't have a volvo but I was in a similar situation a while ago..

gearbox specialist, dealerships and indys all told me that if the oil hasn't been changed before it reaches 100k to just leave it, most had horror stories of customers cars after a oil change

TBH I don't think they wanted to take the risk of being responsible for any potential issues with the gearbox post service, I would be surprised if you find someone to do it for you.

In the end I just drained the transmission oil myself and repeated the process once a month until I had red fluid when I checked the level. If you sense a difference in the gear change just extend or stop the oil change.

Using the drain method you'll only get a small % of the overall volume so its by far the safest method

visual

I have a jeep grand cherokee and its always recommend on these to do a drain and filter change at recommend intervals.
I done mine 6 months ago didn't notice a difference but it gives me peace of mind it be good for another 60k

Flush only if it has been regularly changed or reconditioned.

There is a risk in a flush that lose material on bands will dislog and block a path way.
Drain is less harsh as you not changing all the fluid out and new fluid mixes with old.

Fluid level is critical too much is as bad as too little. On mine it has to be read at normal operating tempture only after its be cycled through P R N D a couple of times to ensure the fluid has been pumped around transmission then with engine off level is read at hot mark on dip stick. No idea if volvo have any special procedures. Also ATF isnt all the same make sure you get what is spected for volvo.

It should be a translucent cherry red color
If its brown and smells burned it well overdue change.

galwaymike

I would flush it out. Volvo say that its a sealed for life box but its not.its a AW 55-50 or AW55-51 box.
You will need about 12/13lts of fluid ATF3309 Get ot from an opel dealers rather then volvo (its a lot cheaper).
Have a look on http://www.volvoforums.org.uk/ for detailed info on flushing, it basicly involves removing the atf cooling pipe from the rad and flushing about a litre at a time.

biko

Like kuro2k I did the drain/refill on my own car myself. It had a tiny bit of shudder but mainly the fluid smelled bad. That was 2K miles ago, still going strong.

kuro2k

visual wrote: »

Fluid level is critical too much is as bad as too little. On mine it has to be read at normal operating tempture only after its be cycled through P R N D a couple of times to ensure the fluid has been pumped around transmission then with engine off level is read at hot mark on dip stick. No idea if volvo have any special procedures.

I was under the impression that transmission oil should be check while the engine was running

galwaymike wrote: »

I would flush it out. Volvo say that its a sealed for life box but its not.its a AW 55-50 or AW55-51 box.
You will need about 12/13lts of fluid ATF3309 Get ot from an opel dealers rather then volvo (its a lot cheaper).
Have a look on http://www.volvoforums.org.uk/ for detailed info on flushing, it basicly involves removing the atf cooling pipe from the rad and flushing about a litre at a time.

I would expect expensive problems after a full flush, removing 12 litres of oil in one go is crazy when its so much easier to just remove 4 litres by draining and see how it goes after each change

IMO You would really need balls of steal to flush the system after 100k when the service history is unknown. When manufactures state its sealed for life, in reality they mean 100k

biko

kuro2k wrote: »

I was under the impression that transmission oil should be check while the engine was running

On my Subaru Forester it's with engine running and also after running lever through all gears first, may be different for other cars.
OP, you can check Volvo forums like this one for details.

visual

http://www.wjjeeps.com/service/transmission.htm is the guide I followed

Yes your correct its measured with engine running

kuro2k wrote: »

I was under the impression that transmission oil should be check while the engine was running

busterjones

Thanks a million All for your advice

Seems consensus is to drain (and repeat) but not flush

I am not mechanical and won't know where to start doing this myself - is it straight forward (can non mechanical person learn online) or should I get a mechanic to do this? How much would you expect it to cost? And ATF3309 is what I need and about 5 litres at a time?

Cheers,

BJ

bmstuff

busterjones wrote: »

where to start doing this myself - is it straight forward (can non mechanical person learn online)

Not that difficult but there is precise procedure. Oil needs to be changed at a certain temperature ideally. Drain 1/3, top up, change gears, drain again etc. At least if this is a very high level ZF transmission procedure.

The problem is that you would need to get under the car and work in a comfortable a secure position. Crawling under a car in your house driveway is not safe at all. Do yourself a favour and find yourself a secure way of getting under your car in a stand up position or bring it to a competent shop (Not a tyres place ok).

busterjones

Thanks bmstuff - I generally learn by making mistakes and don't want to make any here so I think I'll look for someone to do this for me

Can anyone recommend a good mechanic around Dublin that knows these cars and that you'd trust to do this right (including right oil etc.) and bit by bit etc.?

kuro2k

I highly recommend you learn to do this yourself, xc90 should be high enough to crawl underneath without needing to jack the car up.

Get yourself a maintenance manual for the xc90 and follow the instruction, go for a short drive before hand to get the temp of the oil nice and hot. Its a good idea to purchase a measuring jug so you know exactly how much comes out and replace with same.

It really is a case of removing gearbox plug, collecting and measuring the old oil, I would guess you will probably get 4 litres so make sure you have a container large enough to collect it all without spilling any and replace with the correct spec oil via the transmission dip stick with the help of a small plastic funnel. Once you've done it, you'll realise how easy it is

I would definitely wait at least 1 week between changes which will allow you to sense any change in the feel of the gearbox if any

busterjones

thanks kuro2k - do I leave the car running when draining?

biko

No, car should be off.
I find it better to have the ATF up to temp so do it after car has reached operating temp for a while.

2 things:
does the ATF smell?
how many cylinders in your car?

busterjones

It might sound strange but it was difficult to tell if it smelt or not - wasn't a very strong burnt smell but smelt more burnt than sweet though (if that makes sense?)

It might also sound strange but I don't know for sure about the cylinders - how can I tell? Model is described as: XC90 SE D5 E and its a 2.4? diesel (2005).

biko

It's five cylinders http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volvo_D5_engine.

There is a thread here on Volvo forums for your model
http://www.volvoforums.org.uk/showthread.php?t=108025
See post 10, the OP did the change himself.

kuro2k

busterjones wrote: »

thanks kuro2k - do I leave the car running when draining?

No as Biko stated the engine should be off when changing the oil

I will be changing my own transmission oil in the next few days, if Mods allow I will post a "how to" with photos in the maintenance forum, I'm not a mechanic but it may help you if you decide to do it yourself.

busterjones

Cheers

Am I better off doing just say 4l (i.e. whatever drains through the sump) and repeating this on a weekly basis or following the instructions on that post (gibbons method) and replacing more in one go?

Less risky to the the former? Also sounds simpler for me (the complete novice)

Should I get and replace the sump washer too?

busterjones

That would be much (much) appreciated kuro2k (if allowed of course!)

biko

Aye, please do. I forgot to bring camera when I did it last.

kuro2k

OK, i'll try and get it up before Friday

I would go with replacing whatever come out when you remove the plug. Measure exactly what comes out and you will save yourself a lot of hassle and make sure you buy enough oil to complete the oil change before you start the first change (you don't want to end up walking to the dealership for extra oil)

Repeat weekly or monthly whatever suits until you get a red colour when checking the dipstick (I'm still waiting with this gearbox) It normally takes 4-5 oil changes

My plug doesn't have a washer so it n/a in my case

biko

busterjones wrote: »

Cheers

Am I better off doing just say 4l (i.e. whatever drains through the sump) and repeating this on a weekly basis or following the instructions on that post (gibbons method) and replacing more in one go?

Less risky to the the former? Also sounds simpler for me (the complete novice)

Should I get and replace the sump washer too?

It shouldn't be more than 3.5L coming out at any time so get 10L of fluid for now
and change it again after a week or two.
Get measured litre jugs and keep careful track on how much you take out, you need to put the same amount back.
If you're in Galway I can give you a hand.

Also ring local recycling centre and make sure they take old ATF. I just poured mine into old milk jugs and brought them in.

busterjones

I'm in Dublin but thanks for the offer biko

I don't mind spending money to get the best ATF (considering what it could cost to replace unit) - is Mobil ATF3309 the best or is there something else?

Also, I'm due to travel away in the next two weeks (approx. 200 miles) - is this a low enough risk exercise (I'll be doing just the 3.5L drain once beforehand) or should I wait until I get back before doing it (not the I know the car anyway as I've just bought it!) in case I upset anything?

biko

I would say to just do it when you can. It's not going to make a big difference to wait a little bit.
On the other hand it's also fine to do first drain now and the second when you get back.

The most important thing is to get level right, nt overfilling or underfilling.
Try a few time to check the level now, hot and cold. That way you'll know where on the stick the level should be. Also check around the net for instructions for your model.

busterjones

Thanks and is Mobil ATF3309 what I should use?

biko

3309 is good. There's many out there, another is amsoil
http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/transmission-fluid/automatic/oe-multi-vehicle-synthetic-automatic-transmission-fluid/?code=OTFQT-EA
Check more forums and see what they recommend. I find www.volvoforums.org.uk very good.
http://www.volvoforums.org.uk/showthread.php?t=65891

Don't start it until you feel confident you have several sources saying the same thing

busterjones

Thanks biko. on your late point; Don't start it until you feel confident you have several sources saying the same thing!

Just met my mechanic (indy) and discussed it with him and now I'm not sure what to do!

He said his rule has always been to let well enough alone when it come to auto boxes and that he's only seen new problems in the past.

So - rolling right back!

Given that the oil is very dark and has some element of being burnt.

Were I to leave as is, could I get away with a few years of no trouble or is it (trouble) inevitable in the short to medium term if I don't take some action e.g. gradually improve the quality of the ATF?

Or, will gradually improving the quality of the ATF cannot make things any worst but only increase the chances of longer life (i.e. nothing to loose)?

Sorry I know there's no definitive answers to these questions but that's where I'm at right now so trying to weigh up both options.

Cheer!

BJ

biko

There's many "schools" around whether to change it or not.
Some will say to never change it, some will say every 50K miles.
This is just one of many issues mechs have butted heads over for years.

The people that say "never change it" are mainly worried about dislodging some built up sediment or something. In my view this is wrong as the old fluid may well build up some sediment but if you just drain and fill you won't have abrasive cleaner products in there, just fresh oil hopefully of the same grade that has been in there from the start.

If you don't have shifting issues like jerking or shudder the atf in there now is probably fine. Then again it would also be good to change atf before things start acting up.
A third scenario is to drain once now, a second drain in two months, a third drain two months after that. The atf should by then be well more than 50% changed (not the best at maths but there you go).
At the end of the day it's up to you.

ffocused

You could bring to to an automatic gearbox specialist for a service. I had 2 cars done this year & both cost around EUR200 including a filter change. I only drive autos & i get a transmission service done shortly after any used car purchase as it is rarely done in this country. There are a few around Dublin, just google auto transmission service.

kuro2k

busterjones wrote: »

Just met my mechanic (indy) and discussed it with him and now I'm not sure what to do!

He said his rule has always been to let well enough alone when it come to auto boxes and that he's only seen new problems in the past.

IMO your mechanic is just worried you will ask him to do the service. I would be surprised if you find anyone to do a 1st service on a gearbox with 100k miles.

Its a big risk to take for any business, they would probably flush 12-13L out at once and don't want to put themselves into a position where you could come back with a 2k bill for gearbox damage due to the service

The way I see it you have two choices.. do it yourself once a month x 4 (drain & refill 3.5L-4L) or just leave it

ffocused wrote: »

You could bring to to an automatic gearbox specialist for a service. I had 2 cars done this year & both cost around EUR200 including a filter change. I only drive autos & i get a transmission service done shortly after any used car purchase as it is rarely done in this country. There are a few around Dublin, just google auto transmission service.

How old were the 2 gearboxes you serviced and how many miles/km on them?

I know the gearbox specialist in Cork will advise not to change the oil if the gearbox has done over 100k miles and previous service history is unknown. I believe they would flush everything out also.

ffocused

First car was a 08 Chevrolet with 130k kms on clock. Ex hire car with no history so very very unlikely to have had it changed.
It was fine when I got it last summer, but when the cold weather came in it started acting up, (rough &/or late gear changes)
Got it done in Jan this year & it has been fine ever since. Garage said it was running very low on transmission fluid & would not have lasted much longer without a service.
Other car is 05 Hyundai with 80k kms. It was not giving any trouble beforehand & has been fine since the service. It shifts a bit smoother since service.