Changing the rules of the road for cyclists and pedestrians.

Zebra3

ardmacha wrote: »

but cyclists intimidate pedestrians at will without any effective restriction.

As a pedestrian, I have never, ever felt intimidated by cyclists.

OTT language there imo.

bk

Triangla wrote: »

An alternative would be to get off the bike and cross the road as a pedestrian.

Except that I'm turning right at the lights usually, not crossing the road.

To be honest it would be significantly more dangerous to cross the road as a pedestrian.

It would mean coming up to a red light, getting off my bike, walk it across the right hand line into potentially oncoming traffic (they have a green), cross another road and then remount my bike.

This whole procedure is FAR more dangerous then proceeding slowly when safe to do so. It is an example of where common sense needs to over-ride the law for safety.

the groutch

I've had the same experience as the OP at a particular junction where I'd be crossing the N11 early in the morning or late at night.
because I now know it's sensor based at those times I just cycle down the middle of road on the approach to the lights, and never have any issues.

galwaycyclist

Zebra3 wrote: »

As a pedestrian, I have never, ever felt intimidated by cyclists.

OTT language there imo.

Perhaps you personally do not feel intimidated - but many do particularly elderly people - particularly elderly people with osteoporosis.

If an adult cyclist clobbers a lady with osteoporosis she may not die but it may represent the end of her independent existence.

I know of elderly people who feel imprisoned in their own homes because of footpath cyclists.

People with small children also tend to have an issue with adult cyclists coming at them at speed on footpaths.

ardmacha

As a pedestrian, I have never, ever felt intimidated by cyclists.

As a pedestrian I have beem struck by cyclists on more than one occasion, althohgh fortunately I wasn't seriously injured.
Do you not think that cyclists illegally barrelling along footpaths is intimidating to pedestrians?

Zebra3

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Perhaps you personally do not feel intimidated - but many do particularly elderly people - particularly elderly people with osteoporosis.

If an adult cyclist clobbers a lady with osteoporosis she may not die but it may represent the end of her independent existence.

I know of elderly people who feel imprisoned in their own homes because of footpath cyclists.

People with small children also tend to have an issue with adult cyclists coming at them at speed on footpaths.

It's probably safe to say a lot of old people won't leave their home because they're afraid of getting mugged by pedestrians or hit by cars.

ardmacha wrote: »

As a pedestrian I have beem struck by cyclists on more than one occasion, althohgh fortunately I wasn't seriously injured.
Do you not think that cyclists illegally barrelling along footpaths is intimidating to pedestrians?

Any cyclist I've seen on a footpath has always slowed down when approaching pedestrians and I tend to use my eyes and get out their way like I do with cars on speeding illegally on roads or going through red lights.

ardmacha

Any cyclist I've seen on a footpath has always slowed down when approaching pedestrians and I tend to use my eyes and get out their way like I do with cars on speeding illegally on roads or going through red lights

Why should you have to? Why should you not be able to walk on footpaths without louts forcing you to get out of their way?

My point was that at least some cars speeding or breaking red lights are subject to sanction, but cyclists are subject to none, which has led to increased delinquent behaviour.

Cookie_Monster

ardmacha wrote: »

Why should you have to? Why should you not be able to walk on footpaths without louts forcing you to get out of their way?

+1 make them stop and tell them to get off the footpath. Kids under 8 being there is just about acceptable but aside from that it's not.

ardmacha wrote: »

My point was that at least some cars speeding or breaking red lights are subject to sanction, but cyclists are subject to none, which has led to increased delinquent behaviour.

they are, AGS now issue on the spot fines. The only problem is the lack of Gardai on the streets.

Iwannahurl

Photo 1: A female pedestrian, out walking for exercise this morning, was crossing towards me on the 'green man'. She suddenly ran off to my left, out of picture. The reason was the car coming around the corner behind me.




Photo 2: A minute later, a child walking to school crossed on the green man. Two cars turning right accelerated through the junction as she walked.

Iwannahurl

Typical scenes from a child's trip to school.

Photo 1: bus cannot enter a roundabout because it is blocked by cars. The line of cars continuing up the hill are taking a right turn, while in the left lane.




Photo 2: child cyclist cannot use "courtesy crossing" because it is blocked by stationary bus.




Photo 3: child cyclist waits as 5-axle truck passes "courtesy crossing" during school run.




Photo 4: adult pedestrian and schoolchildren, depending on the kindness of strangers, wait for a gap in traffic to use "courtesy crossing" at busy roundabout. In the background, a sign proclaims the role of the National Roads Authority in creating such conditions for pedestrians, cyclists and bus users.

00112984

Do these "courtesy crossings" have any signage or road markings or is it just a couple of dished footpaths? Have seen similar in other locations and they're daft; lazy work by apparently qualified engineers and designers.
Looks like zebra crossings are required here, and at a suitable distance from the roundabout to ensure they aren't blocked by long vehicles.

Iwannahurl

00112984 wrote: »

Do these "courtesy crossings" have any signage or road markings or is it just a couple of dished footpaths? Have seen similar in other locations and they're daft; lazy work by apparently qualified engineers and designers.

Looks like zebra crossings are required here, and at a suitable distance from the roundabout to ensure they aren't blocked by long vehicles.

"Courtesy crossings" have no meaning in life, for pedestrians.

For motorists like me, perhaps their purpose is to make us feel good for letting parents pushing children in prams, or the occasional old lady, cross in front of us without fear of being mown down.

Photo 1: pedestrians cross a dual carriageway at the Bodkin* roundabout in Galway, 2008. Are they jay-walkers or jay-runners?




Photo 2: a cyclist mounts the footpath because her access to the cycle lane ahead is obstructed by a car exiting the roundabout. A woman beside her pushing a buggy, who has just completed the school run on foot, cannot cross because the bus (and following traffic) is blocking the junction.




Photo 3: woman pushing a pram and accompanied by a child on foot crosses between cars on a roundabout at 8:53am, 30th April 2013. She has just come from the local primary school, located on this road off the roundabout. The school got planning permission in 2006 and opened in 2009. No pedestrian-priority crossings were included in the planning process, none have been provided since, and afaik none are planned for this junction in future.





*EDIT: currently being converted to a signalised junction. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056435055

ardmacha

Photo 1: A female pedestrian, out walking for exercise this morning, was crossing towards me on the 'green man'. She suddenly ran off to my left, out of picture. The reason was the car coming around the corner behind me.

While there are engineering issues in the other examples above, it seems to me that traffic light cameras could be used to detect this, as is the case in many countries, and that these should be installed forthwith.

Iwannahurl

ardmacha wrote: »

While there are engineering issues in the other examples above, it seems to me that traffic light cameras could be used to detect this, as is the case in many countries, and that these should be installed forthwith.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "engineering issues"?

The thought occurs that, in the context of the RoTR for cyclists and pedestrians, what is required is a seamless integration of engineering, legislation and behaviour.

The current situation seems to be that the first two often do not work together, with the result that road users, including cyclists and pedestrians, adapt as necessary to prevailing conditions.

Aard

@IWH
I'd do it myself only I'm on a tablet, but it might be useful to show examples of how those failed junctions could be improved, for example from the Netherlands.

It's amazing when you do a side by side comparison just how lacking most Irish towns are in quality pedestrian infrastructure. The legacy of auto-oriented design will last a long time.

beauf

Tragedy wrote: »

It isn't the case? Why then is it that the majority of cyclists I see break red lights routinely in order to not have to stop/minimise waiting times?...

Because they can. Like people driving while on their phone. They don't have any negative experience to dissuade them.

Aard wrote: »

@IWH
I'd do it myself only I'm on a tablet, but it might be useful to show examples of how those failed junctions could be improved, for example from the Netherlands.

It's amazing when you do a side by side comparison just how lacking most Irish towns are in quality pedestrian infrastructure. The legacy of auto-oriented design will last a long time.

TBH a lot of junctions/road planning makes no logical sense. Its consistently of a very poor standard.

Iwannahurl

beauf wrote: »

Because they can. Like people driving while on their phone. They don't have any negative experience to dissuade them.

TBH a lot of junctions/road planning makes no logical sense. Its consistently of a very poor standard.

Same junction as pictured earlier. The motorist is accelerating through the Green Man while talking on her 'smartphone'. Note the cyclist on the footpath, also heading to a nearby school.

I would argue that cyclists' and pedestrians' negative experiences are not comparable, in an apples and oranges kind of way.