The Norwegian Prison That Works

Amirani

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/sep/04/bastoy-norwegian-prison-works

It's quite common on here to have people criticising our criminal justice for its leniency and how prison here is essentially a "holiday camp" for inmates. Well, Bastoy Prison in Norway is effectively a holiday camp. It houses prisoners who have committed all manner of offences but treats them with dignity and makes genuine attempts to reform them.

The result? A 16% rate of re-offending, compared to a European average of around 70%. Bastoy is also one of the cheapest prisons in Norway to run.

We've tried harsh prison conditions and capital punishment in the past and present to no great effect. Why not try a system such as Bastoy that the statistics show will lead to a lower rate of re-offending? Should this not be our ultimate goal for prisons rather than revenge?

SweepTheLeg

That's because they work on rehabilitating the inmate, and not just locking him in a dark cell and forget about him.

Tabnabs

Two important points about the system

Prisoners can come here for the final part of their sentence if they show a commitment to live a crime-free life on release. Bastoy is also one of the cheapest prisons in Norway to run.

The facility is largely self sufficient.

For those with 75 minutes to spare and wanting to see more about Bastoy, there is a documentary online.

http://www.cultureunplugged.com/documentary/watch-online/play/11254/BASTOY

inforfun

Only 16% reoffending sounds good.
But who is locked up there?
I see mentioned that the reporter spoke to rapists, murderers and other violent criminals but are those the not the kind of crimes that have low re-offending anyway?

Fill that island with burglars, shop lifters and the likes and i think the re-offending rate will be a lot higher.

Mr Benevolent

It works because three people and a bottle of beer is a party in Norway. It's the most boring country in Europe besides Sweden.

drdeadlift

Mr Benevolent wrote: »

It works because three people and a bottle of beer is a party in Norway. It's the most boring country in Europe besides Sweden.

Your miles off.In Norway a bottle of gin is drank between three people THEN the pub.Stavanger is full of buckled drunks at the end of a sat night..They particularly lile spirits, akavit expecially drank straight.

Tabnabs

Mr Benevolent wrote: »

It works because three people and a bottle of beer is a party in Norway. It's the most boring country in Europe besides Sweden.

Because boring people are happy people???

Overflow

Mr Benevolent wrote: »

It works because three people and a bottle of beer is a party in Norway. It's the most boring country in Europe besides Sweden.

You have no idea what your talking about.

Mr Benevolent

Overflow wrote: »

You obviously have no idea what your talking about.

This is AH, knowing what you're talking about is an option, not a requirement.

Links234

Mr Benevolent wrote: »

It works because three people and a bottle of beer is a party in Norway. It's the most boring country in Europe besides Sweden.

I've been to Norway and boring it is not!

allibastor

Norway is great crack.

But they also invest more in orision rehabilitation and the like. The have a much better system there, but violent offenders who show no remorse are still locked up, same as anywhere.

blackwhite

Tabnabs wrote: »

Two important points about the system

Prisoners can come here for the final part of their sentence if they show a commitment to live a crime-free life on release. Bastoy is also one of the cheapest prisons in Norway to run.

This is the key point that explains the low re-offender rate. They only take in prisoners who already less likely to re-offend.

If every prisoner was sent to this prison or prisons based on this model then the re-offender rate would likely be a good bit higher.

That said, having a proper rehabilitation program would doubtless result in improved re-offender rates, and is something that this country sadly lacks.

Something similar to this model, where suitable inmates could transfer for the final 25% of their sentence, would surely give those who are interested in moving away from a life of crime a fighting chance at building a better life for themselves upon release.

long range shooter

Mr Benevolent wrote: »

It works because three people and a bottle of beer is a party in Norway. It's the most boring country in Europe besides Sweden.

I think you ended up in the wrong party in Norway:D
And the price of alcohol is not cheap in Norway,thats why many drink at home before they go out.

BeerWolf

What's the stop people committing a crime just so they can get a holiday there?

NiallSparky

NiallSparky wrote: »

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/sep/04/bastoy-norwegian-prison-works

It's quite common on here to have people criticising our criminal justice for its leniency and how prison here is essentially a "holiday camp" for inmates. Well, Bastoy Prison in Norway is effectively a holiday camp. It houses prisoners who have committed all manner of offences but treats them with dignity and makes genuine attempts to reform them.

The result? A 16% rate of re-offending, compared to a European average of around 70%. Bastoy is also one of the cheapest prisons in Norway to run.

We've tried harsh prison conditions and capital punishment in the past and present to no great effect. Why not try a system such as Bastoy that the statistics show will lead to a lower rate of re-offending? Should this not be our ultimate goal for prisons rather than revenge?

I do think it has something to show the rest of the world, however it works because it is in Norway, culture is everything when looking at social problems you simply cant say something works in one country so lets replicate it here in an Irish context and we will get the same results.

Karl Stein

Prison should be primarily a place for people who commit violent crimes including rape/sexual abuse. Locking up petty offenders is simply providing a learning environment for future offending.

anncoates

Don't prisoners that do long sentences (for serious crimes) tend to have a quite low reoffending rate anyway?

Amirani

Charlie Rock wrote: »

Prison should be primarily a place for people who commit violent crimes including rape/sexual abuse. Locking up petty offenders is simply providing a learning environment for future offending.

Agreed. That's another major area of our criminal justice system I'd like reformed.

Prison should only be used for criminals who pose an active threat to society (murderers, sex offenders, other violent criminals), and not as punishment. A combination of fines and community service would be a better situation for other criminals. This solution would be cheaper and it would also stop the "learning environment" that you mention.

Anyone

Charlie Rock wrote: »

Prison should be primarily a place for people who commit violent crimes including rape/sexual abuse. Locking up petty offenders is simply providing a learning environment for future offending.

What alternatives do you suggest then as deterrents to crime if prison is not one of them?

long range shooter

Anyone wrote: »

What alternatives do you suggest then as deterrents to crime if prison is not one of them?

Penal labour

Amirani

anncoates wrote: »

Don't prisoners that do long sentences (for serious crimes) tend to have a quite low reoffending rate anyway?

Yes, significantly so it seems.

Karl Stein

Anyone wrote: »

What alternatives do you suggest then as deterrents to crime if prison is not one of them?

The question is too reductive. There are many quite normal and relatively harmless behaviours that are deemed crime and plenty of other behaviours that are incredibly destructive and are not.

Nobody has been put in prison for the massive social harm caused by financial negligence and in the meantime we're locking people up for not paying TV licence fines and for selling vegetation that gives people a bit of a buzz.

theGEM

NiallSparky wrote: »

Agreed. That's a nothing major area of our criminal justice system I'd like reformed.

Prison should only be used for criminals who pose an active threat to society (murderers, sex offenders, other violent criminals), and not as punishment. A combination of fines and community service would be a better situation for other criminals. This solution would be cheaper and it would also stop the "learning environment" that you mention.

^^^
That's dumb


Lowlife's don't pay fines, they don't show up to do community service. You obviously havn't been a victim of a crime. You cannot but a price on the punishment and revenge element in our justice system. Lenghty prison sentences are what's lacking in this country.

Amirani

theGEM wrote: »

^^^
That's dumb


Lowlife's don't pay fines, they don't show up to do community service. You obviously havn't been a victim of a crime. You cannot but a price on the punishment and revenge element in our justice system. Lenghty prison sentences are what's lacking in this country.

Greater counter point, thanks for informing how dumb I am. Do you have any evidence to support your view, evidence that may actually counter the evidence (admittedly second-hand) that I posted in the OP? I can provide further evidence to support my view, but I feel the onus is probably on you at this point.

Anyone

Charlie Rock wrote: »

The question is too reductive. There are many quite normal and relatively harmless behaviours that are deemed crime and plenty of other behaviours that are incredibly destructive and are not.

Nobody has been put in prison for the massive social harm caused by financial negligence and in the meantime we're locking people up for not paying TV licence fines and for selling vegetation that gives people a bit of a buzz.

That doesn't answer my question though, if a crime has been committed and prison is not an option, what deterrent is there in place to stop people committing the crime again.

There's no point in having laws if there is no punishment for breaking those laws. By the way, I'm not going to argue specific laws and if I/you/we agree or disagree. I'd just like to hear suggestions for alternative methods of deterring crime.

Amirani

I know you're almost certain not to respond theGEM, so I'll give you the statistics anyway. The UK provides quite thorough statistics on this:

Report: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/218476/proven-reoffending-jan-dec09.pdf

Excel Statistics: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/163378/2012-compendium-re-offending-stats-tables.xls.xls

The relevant point in terms of your claim is the following:

"The results showed that after controlling for differences between offenders, the proven reoffending rate of offenders given short term prison sentences (less than 12 months) was 8.3 percentage points higher than for similar offenders given Community Orders and 8.8 percentage points higher than for similar offenders given Suspended Sentence Orders

The proportion of offenders starting community orders who committed a proven re-offence within a year has decreased by 2.2 percentage points since their introduction in 2005. Offenders starting suspended sentence orders showed a larger decrease of 5.3 percentage points."

So I'll ask again. Why exactly do you claim "we cannot put a price on the punishment and revenge element in our justice system. Lenghty prison sentences are what's lacking in this country." That seems quite illogical.

mikemac1

NiallSparky wrote: »

Agreed. That's a nothing major area of our criminal justice system I'd like reformed.

Prison should only be used for criminals who pose an active threat to society (murderers, sex offenders, other violent criminals), and not as punishment. A combination of fines and community service would be a better situation for other criminals. This solution would be cheaper and it would also stop the "learning environment" that you mention.

Listen to Paddy O'Gormon roving reporter on whatever the Pat Kenny show has become now

People getting fines over no car insurance,no motor tax, ignore TV license summons and a lot for drunkenness.

They never bother to pay fines, prison is no big deal to them so away they go and they get released a few hours later. Don't we have multiple threads in AH about people with 40, 50 and more convictions?

Someone holding a decent job or hoping to get a visa abroad may be worried over prison. For others it's a joke as they are kept only a little while and the womens prisons are like the OP's post, a holiday camp

Amirani

mikemac1 wrote: »

Listen to Paddy O'Gormon roving reporter on whatever the Pat Kenny show has become now

People getting fines over no car insurance,no motor tax, ignore TV license summons and a lot for drunkenness.

They never bother to pay fines, prison is no big deal to them so away they go and they get released a few hours later. Don't we have multiple threads in AH about people with 40, 50 and more convictions?

Fines should be deducted from income and social welfare payments. Whatever about people being supposedly apathetic about prison, they generally don't like their money being taken off them.

AlanG

NiallSparky wrote: »

So I'll ask again. Why exactly do you claim "we cannot put a price on the punishment and revenge element in our justice system. Lenghty prison sentences are what's lacking in this country." That seems quite illogical.

What do you suggest doing with people who don’t participate in community service and don’t pay fines? It appears that you have very little empathy for the victims of crime. Have you ever lived in an area that suffers from serious anti-social behaviour.

Amirani

AlanG wrote: »

What do you suggest doing with people who don’t participate in community service and don’t pay fines? It appears that you have very little empathy for the victims of crime. Have you ever lived in an area that suffers from serious anti-social behaviour.

Read the post one above.

I have a huge amount of empathy for the victims of crime. Revenge based punishment doesn't undo what as been done, it just makes it more likely to happen in future.

I grew up in Cabra/Finglas, not exactly leafy Dublin 4, but I'm not sure what your point is?

Grayson

mariaalice wrote: »

I do think it has something to show the rest of the world, however it works because it is in Norway, culture is everything when looking at social problems you simply cant say something works in one country so lets replicate it here in an Irish context and we will get the same results.

the thing is that all we've ever done is lock people up in a gritty prison and hope that if we treat them crappy enough it'll scare them into never coming back. Actually, that's not quite accurate. We used to kill them too.

It doesn't work though. Norway used to be the same but they tried something different and it worked. I'm not saying we should copy it exactly, but the general idea worth trying.
The pessimist in me thinks the government could feck it up.
The optimist thinks that sometimes we do really well at progressive ideas.