The Norwegian Prison That Works

Amirani

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/sep/04/bastoy-norwegian-prison-works

It's quite common on here to have people criticising our criminal justice for its leniency and how prison here is essentially a "holiday camp" for inmates. Well, Bastoy Prison in Norway is effectively a holiday camp. It houses prisoners who have committed all manner of offences but treats them with dignity and makes genuine attempts to reform them.

The result? A 16% rate of re-offending, compared to a European average of around 70%. Bastoy is also one of the cheapest prisons in Norway to run.

We've tried harsh prison conditions and capital punishment in the past and present to no great effect. Why not try a system such as Bastoy that the statistics show will lead to a lower rate of re-offending? Should this not be our ultimate goal for prisons rather than revenge?

SweepTheLeg

That's because they work on rehabilitating the inmate, and not just locking him in a dark cell and forget about him.

Tabnabs

Two important points about the system

Prisoners can come here for the final part of their sentence if they show a commitment to live a crime-free life on release. Bastoy is also one of the cheapest prisons in Norway to run.

The facility is largely self sufficient.

For those with 75 minutes to spare and wanting to see more about Bastoy, there is a documentary online.

http://www.cultureunplugged.com/documentary/watch-online/play/11254/BASTOY

inforfun

Only 16% reoffending sounds good.
But who is locked up there?
I see mentioned that the reporter spoke to rapists, murderers and other violent criminals but are those the not the kind of crimes that have low re-offending anyway?

Fill that island with burglars, shop lifters and the likes and i think the re-offending rate will be a lot higher.

Mr Benevolent

It works because three people and a bottle of beer is a party in Norway. It's the most boring country in Europe besides Sweden.

drdeadlift

Mr Benevolent wrote: »

It works because three people and a bottle of beer is a party in Norway. It's the most boring country in Europe besides Sweden.

Your miles off.In Norway a bottle of gin is drank between three people THEN the pub.Stavanger is full of buckled drunks at the end of a sat night..They particularly lile spirits, akavit expecially drank straight.

Tabnabs

Mr Benevolent wrote: »

It works because three people and a bottle of beer is a party in Norway. It's the most boring country in Europe besides Sweden.

Because boring people are happy people???

Overflow

Mr Benevolent wrote: »

It works because three people and a bottle of beer is a party in Norway. It's the most boring country in Europe besides Sweden.

You have no idea what your talking about.

Mr Benevolent

Overflow wrote: »

You obviously have no idea what your talking about.

This is AH, knowing what you're talking about is an option, not a requirement.

Links234

Mr Benevolent wrote: »

It works because three people and a bottle of beer is a party in Norway. It's the most boring country in Europe besides Sweden.

I've been to Norway and boring it is not!

allibastor

Norway is great crack.

But they also invest more in orision rehabilitation and the like. The have a much better system there, but violent offenders who show no remorse are still locked up, same as anywhere.

blackwhite

Tabnabs wrote: »

Two important points about the system

Prisoners can come here for the final part of their sentence if they show a commitment to live a crime-free life on release. Bastoy is also one of the cheapest prisons in Norway to run.

This is the key point that explains the low re-offender rate. They only take in prisoners who already less likely to re-offend.

If every prisoner was sent to this prison or prisons based on this model then the re-offender rate would likely be a good bit higher.

That said, having a proper rehabilitation program would doubtless result in improved re-offender rates, and is something that this country sadly lacks.

Something similar to this model, where suitable inmates could transfer for the final 25% of their sentence, would surely give those who are interested in moving away from a life of crime a fighting chance at building a better life for themselves upon release.

long range shooter

Mr Benevolent wrote: »

It works because three people and a bottle of beer is a party in Norway. It's the most boring country in Europe besides Sweden.

I think you ended up in the wrong party in Norway:D
And the price of alcohol is not cheap in Norway,thats why many drink at home before they go out.

BeerWolf

What's the stop people committing a crime just so they can get a holiday there?

NiallSparky

NiallSparky wrote: »

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/sep/04/bastoy-norwegian-prison-works

It's quite common on here to have people criticising our criminal justice for its leniency and how prison here is essentially a "holiday camp" for inmates. Well, Bastoy Prison in Norway is effectively a holiday camp. It houses prisoners who have committed all manner of offences but treats them with dignity and makes genuine attempts to reform them.

The result? A 16% rate of re-offending, compared to a European average of around 70%. Bastoy is also one of the cheapest prisons in Norway to run.

We've tried harsh prison conditions and capital punishment in the past and present to no great effect. Why not try a system such as Bastoy that the statistics show will lead to a lower rate of re-offending? Should this not be our ultimate goal for prisons rather than revenge?

I do think it has something to show the rest of the world, however it works because it is in Norway, culture is everything when looking at social problems you simply cant say something works in one country so lets replicate it here in an Irish context and we will get the same results.

Karl Stein

Prison should be primarily a place for people who commit violent crimes including rape/sexual abuse. Locking up petty offenders is simply providing a learning environment for future offending.

anncoates

Don't prisoners that do long sentences (for serious crimes) tend to have a quite low reoffending rate anyway?

Amirani

Charlie Rock wrote: »

Prison should be primarily a place for people who commit violent crimes including rape/sexual abuse. Locking up petty offenders is simply providing a learning environment for future offending.

Agreed. That's another major area of our criminal justice system I'd like reformed.

Prison should only be used for criminals who pose an active threat to society (murderers, sex offenders, other violent criminals), and not as punishment. A combination of fines and community service would be a better situation for other criminals. This solution would be cheaper and it would also stop the "learning environment" that you mention.

Anyone

Charlie Rock wrote: »

Prison should be primarily a place for people who commit violent crimes including rape/sexual abuse. Locking up petty offenders is simply providing a learning environment for future offending.

What alternatives do you suggest then as deterrents to crime if prison is not one of them?

long range shooter

Anyone wrote: »

What alternatives do you suggest then as deterrents to crime if prison is not one of them?

Penal labour

Amirani

anncoates wrote: »

Don't prisoners that do long sentences (for serious crimes) tend to have a quite low reoffending rate anyway?

Yes, significantly so it seems.

Karl Stein

Anyone wrote: »

What alternatives do you suggest then as deterrents to crime if prison is not one of them?

The question is too reductive. There are many quite normal and relatively harmless behaviours that are deemed crime and plenty of other behaviours that are incredibly destructive and are not.

Nobody has been put in prison for the massive social harm caused by financial negligence and in the meantime we're locking people up for not paying TV licence fines and for selling vegetation that gives people a bit of a buzz.

theGEM

NiallSparky wrote: »

Agreed. That's a nothing major area of our criminal justice system I'd like reformed.

Prison should only be used for criminals who pose an active threat to society (murderers, sex offenders, other violent criminals), and not as punishment. A combination of fines and community service would be a better situation for other criminals. This solution would be cheaper and it would also stop the "learning environment" that you mention.

^^^
That's dumb


Lowlife's don't pay fines, they don't show up to do community service. You obviously havn't been a victim of a crime. You cannot but a price on the punishment and revenge element in our justice system. Lenghty prison sentences are what's lacking in this country.

Amirani

theGEM wrote: »

^^^
That's dumb


Lowlife's don't pay fines, they don't show up to do community service. You obviously havn't been a victim of a crime. You cannot but a price on the punishment and revenge element in our justice system. Lenghty prison sentences are what's lacking in this country.

Greater counter point, thanks for informing how dumb I am. Do you have any evidence to support your view, evidence that may actually counter the evidence (admittedly second-hand) that I posted in the OP? I can provide further evidence to support my view, but I feel the onus is probably on you at this point.

Anyone

Charlie Rock wrote: »

The question is too reductive. There are many quite normal and relatively harmless behaviours that are deemed crime and plenty of other behaviours that are incredibly destructive and are not.

Nobody has been put in prison for the massive social harm caused by financial negligence and in the meantime we're locking people up for not paying TV licence fines and for selling vegetation that gives people a bit of a buzz.

That doesn't answer my question though, if a crime has been committed and prison is not an option, what deterrent is there in place to stop people committing the crime again.

There's no point in having laws if there is no punishment for breaking those laws. By the way, I'm not going to argue specific laws and if I/you/we agree or disagree. I'd just like to hear suggestions for alternative methods of deterring crime.

Amirani

I know you're almost certain not to respond theGEM, so I'll give you the statistics anyway. The UK provides quite thorough statistics on this:

Report: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/218476/proven-reoffending-jan-dec09.pdf

Excel Statistics: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/163378/2012-compendium-re-offending-stats-tables.xls.xls

The relevant point in terms of your claim is the following:

"The results showed that after controlling for differences between offenders, the proven reoffending rate of offenders given short term prison sentences (less than 12 months) was 8.3 percentage points higher than for similar offenders given Community Orders and 8.8 percentage points higher than for similar offenders given Suspended Sentence Orders

The proportion of offenders starting community orders who committed a proven re-offence within a year has decreased by 2.2 percentage points since their introduction in 2005. Offenders starting suspended sentence orders showed a larger decrease of 5.3 percentage points."

So I'll ask again. Why exactly do you claim "we cannot put a price on the punishment and revenge element in our justice system. Lenghty prison sentences are what's lacking in this country." That seems quite illogical.

mikemac1

NiallSparky wrote: »

Agreed. That's a nothing major area of our criminal justice system I'd like reformed.

Prison should only be used for criminals who pose an active threat to society (murderers, sex offenders, other violent criminals), and not as punishment. A combination of fines and community service would be a better situation for other criminals. This solution would be cheaper and it would also stop the "learning environment" that you mention.

Listen to Paddy O'Gormon roving reporter on whatever the Pat Kenny show has become now

People getting fines over no car insurance,no motor tax, ignore TV license summons and a lot for drunkenness.

They never bother to pay fines, prison is no big deal to them so away they go and they get released a few hours later. Don't we have multiple threads in AH about people with 40, 50 and more convictions?

Someone holding a decent job or hoping to get a visa abroad may be worried over prison. For others it's a joke as they are kept only a little while and the womens prisons are like the OP's post, a holiday camp

Amirani

mikemac1 wrote: »

Listen to Paddy O'Gormon roving reporter on whatever the Pat Kenny show has become now

People getting fines over no car insurance,no motor tax, ignore TV license summons and a lot for drunkenness.

They never bother to pay fines, prison is no big deal to them so away they go and they get released a few hours later. Don't we have multiple threads in AH about people with 40, 50 and more convictions?

Fines should be deducted from income and social welfare payments. Whatever about people being supposedly apathetic about prison, they generally don't like their money being taken off them.

AlanG

NiallSparky wrote: »

So I'll ask again. Why exactly do you claim "we cannot put a price on the punishment and revenge element in our justice system. Lenghty prison sentences are what's lacking in this country." That seems quite illogical.

What do you suggest doing with people who don’t participate in community service and don’t pay fines? It appears that you have very little empathy for the victims of crime. Have you ever lived in an area that suffers from serious anti-social behaviour.

Amirani

AlanG wrote: »

What do you suggest doing with people who don’t participate in community service and don’t pay fines? It appears that you have very little empathy for the victims of crime. Have you ever lived in an area that suffers from serious anti-social behaviour.

Read the post one above.

I have a huge amount of empathy for the victims of crime. Revenge based punishment doesn't undo what as been done, it just makes it more likely to happen in future.

I grew up in Cabra/Finglas, not exactly leafy Dublin 4, but I'm not sure what your point is?

Grayson

mariaalice wrote: »

I do think it has something to show the rest of the world, however it works because it is in Norway, culture is everything when looking at social problems you simply cant say something works in one country so lets replicate it here in an Irish context and we will get the same results.

the thing is that all we've ever done is lock people up in a gritty prison and hope that if we treat them crappy enough it'll scare them into never coming back. Actually, that's not quite accurate. We used to kill them too.

It doesn't work though. Norway used to be the same but they tried something different and it worked. I'm not saying we should copy it exactly, but the general idea worth trying.
The pessimist in me thinks the government could feck it up.
The optimist thinks that sometimes we do really well at progressive ideas.

BeerWolf

Charlie Rock wrote: »

Prison should be primarily a place for people who commit violent crimes including rape/sexual abuse. Locking up petty offenders is simply providing a learning environment for future offending.

Indeed - petty offenders strictly should serve community service at most to 'contribute' back to society.

krudler

long range shooter wrote: »

Penal labour

heeheehee

MonstaMash

Tabnabs wrote: »

For those with 75 minutes to spare and wanting to see more about Bastoy, there is a documentary online.

http://www.cultureunplugged.com/documentary/watch-online/play/11254/BASTOY

Interesting Documentary Tabnabs, thanks for sharing.

dd972

For myriad reasons this would work in Norway and not other places, having a Norwegian standard of education and society plus the demographics of Norway are a major factor.

I often think we'd be quite like the Nordic countries if history had been kinder.

conorhal

anncoates wrote: »

Don't prisoners that do long sentences (for serious crimes) tend to have a quite low reoffending rate anyway?

Interesting point, and probably true. The lifers tend not be be reoffenders, that's the 50+ conviction serial burglars and the like who's 3-6 month stints in the clink are just career breaks for them.
It's also been pointed out that there is a strict selection critera for admission to the prison, so a low reoffender rate in that regards is as unsurprising as a private school with tough entrance exams having an 85% college acceptance rate.

mikemac1

dd972 wrote: »

I often think we'd be quite like the Nordic countries if history had been kinder.

They were here and Brian Boru ran them out

Proper order :mad:

TommiesTank

How much is this going to cost us?

mitosis

So are we in fact saying, the longer a person stays in prison the less likely they are to re-offend? That's how it appears.

The Norwegian prison piece is meaningless given the prison prioritises taking in those less likely to re-offend.

Little Acorn

If they only accept prisoners who have already proven track record of good behaviour and already want to change their future then it's not really that surprising that they have low re-offending rates.
That's what I'm taking they mean by:

Prisoners can come here for the final part of their sentence if they show a commitment to live a crime-free life on release.

If these exact same approved prisoners had just been released from their regular jails and were never sent to this nice prison for final stretch, would they not have still had similar re-offending rates due to the fact that they had already proven that they had good behaviour and possessed a strong commitment to live a 'crime free' life in the future.

Amirani

mitosis wrote: »

So are we in fact saying, the longer a person stays in prison the less likely they are to re-offend? That's how it appears.

Well people who spend 30 years in prison are statistically less likely to re-offend because firstly; there's a 30 year window in which they can't re-offend. Secondly, because the probability of re-offending has a negative correlation with age.

However, it's important to realise also that people who don't go to prison at all are less likely to re-offend than those that go to prison for minor crimes.

Amirani

Little Acorn wrote: »

If they only accept prisoners who have already proven track record of good behaviour and already want to change their future then it's not really that surprising that they have low re-offending rates.
That's what I'm taking they mean by:

If these exact same approved prisoners had just been released from their regular jails and were never sent to this nice prison for final stretch, would they not have still had similar re-offending rates due to the fact that they had already proven that they had good behaviour and possessed a strong commitment to live a 'crime free' life in the future.

Norway in general has a much lower rate of recidivism than most other countries, it's not exclusive to this prison. The reason this prison is notable is that it's rates are easily among the lowest of any prison in Europe. Is there any good reason why we shouldn't have a similar facility for people who show a commitment to live crime free?

StinkyMunkey

NiallSparky wrote: »

Read the post one above.

I have a huge amount of empathy for the victims of crime. Revenge based punishment doesn't undo what as been done, it just makes it more likely to happen in future.

I grew up in Cabra/Finglas, not exactly leafy Dublin 4, but I'm not sure what your point is?

I fail to see how sending someone to prison for committing a crime is revenge based!!!! Everyone who is caught committing a crime is put through the Irish justice system (flawed as it may be). There are thousands of victims, families of victims of crime who would strongly disagree with you and argue the fact that the people who were caught did not get a long enough sentence.

Revenge based justice is for vigilantes, unless of course you are saying the courts are vigilantes....

Im a little disgusted that you think rapists and murderers have even a right to be let back out into society. Sure not all crimes deserve life in prison and i do agree with rehabilitation to a degree.

As people stated, it has alot to do with culture and social perspective of a country.

Knowing people who work in the prison service personally, the Irish prison system is outdated, understaffed and under funded. But that said, Irish prison's are not dark dungeon's where prisioners are confined to cells 24/7 without perks.

Prison is a punishment for committing a crime, not a holiday camp for poor people who are victims of revenge:cool:.

theGEM

NiallSparky wrote: »

Well people who spend 30 years in prison are statistically less likely to re-offend because firstly; there's a 30 year window in which they can't re-offend. Secondly, because the probability of re-offending has a negative correlation with age.

However, it's important to realise also that people who don't go to prison at all are less likely to re-offend than those that go to prison for minor crimes.

Maybe when a burglar breaks into your house, ransacks your room and steals your property you should just ask them to just mow your lawn as punishment. And trim your hedges when they come back again next week..

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/9883908/8000-criminals-given-at-least-11-community-sentences-before-being-jailed.html

Amirani

There are thousands of victims, families of victims of crime who would strongly disagree with you and argue the fact that the people who were caught did not get a long enough sentence.

They don't decide on sentencing, and for good reason.

Im a little disgusted that you think rapists and murderers have even a right to be let back out into society. Sure not all crimes deserve life in prison and i do agree with rehabilitation to a degree.

Why are you deliberately misquoting me? Please point out where I said anything resembling that please or else withdraw your accusation.

Amirani

theGEM wrote: »

Maybe when a burglar breaks into your house, ransacks your room and steals your property you should just ask them to just mow your lawn as punishment. And trim your hedges when they come back again next week..

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/9883908/8000-criminals-given-at-least-11-community-sentences-before-being-jailed.html

If a burglar breaks into my house and damages my property, they should be forced by a court to make repayments to compensate for the damage they caused.

It makes no difference to me if they go to prison, my stuff is still damaged. Seeing as they're more likely to re-offend though by being sent to prison, the community service approach is probably best.

Little Acorn

NiallSparky wrote: »

Norway in general has a much lower rate of recidivism than most other countries, it's not exclusive to this prison. The reason this prison is notable is that it's rates are easily among the lowest of any prison in Europe. Is there any good reason why we shouldn't have a similar facility for people who show a commitment to live crime free?

I guess I'm just wondering what the need for it is if they are already committed to living crime free and if it is not the actual nicer style of prison that is causing that effect. They are like that before they are accepted in there so I'm just unsure as to why there is a need for it really.

Amirani

Little Acorn wrote: »

I guess I'm just wondering what the need for it is if they are already committed to living crime free and if it is not the actual nicer style of prison that is causing that effect. They are like that before they are accepted in there so I'm just unsure as to why there is a need for it really.

That is a very valid point alright. However, I'd say there is cases of where people go into prison with no intention of re-offending but get drawn into a criminal element within the prison. It would be a more common occurrence in the US, but this sort of prison would lessen the chance of that happening.

greendrop

Mr Benevolent wrote: »

It works because three people and a bottle of beer is a party in Norway. It's the most boring country in Europe besides Sweden.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EF1V8HFfpTE

one beer you say? :rolleyes:

UCDVet

I'm not against the idea of prison being an opportunity for growth/improvement instead of a punishment.

My concern is the implementation.

Imagine two brothers being raised in a poor household with an abusive parent. Neither perform well in school, both experiment with drugs, both get into trouble young.

Brother A sucks it up, takes a low paying job as a janitor and spends the rest of his life cleaning toilets.

Brother B joins up with a gang. Spends some time selling drugs and gets into mild organized crime. He spends 2-3 years victimizing people, but is eventually caught for a serious offense. He's got a handful of small offenses under his belt, so they send him to a 'camp' for 10 years.

He spends 10 years living a pretty awesome life. He's got a nice cabin in the woods, his own space, TV, internet, food, clothing....all for free. He's got some chores to do, but come'on, he's being taken care of. He gets top notch medical care too, and gets to talk to experts about his feelings and what he went through a child with his abusive parents and how it made him feel powerless and blah, blah, blah.

AND while he's being provided for, living very comfortably, getting treatment for his psychological issues, enjoying things like bicycle rides, long walks and horseback riding....he also gets career training. For free.

He gets out after 10 years and he's a new man.
His brother - who wasn't a criminal - is still scrubbing toilets, living in conditions worse than the prison, despite working his arse off. He never hurt anyone else, he was equally subjected to an unfair upbringing....and now, instead of being prompted to 'toilet manager' - his promotion goes to his brother who received management training.

If you are going to provide a resort style life to criminals, how can you not provide it to people who aren't?

Amirani

That's a commonly raised point. I however can't understand how people value their liberty so little. Freedom and personal choice for me is so much better than anything that could ever be offered to me in prison.