New "bus trains" for Munich

lil5

http://www.sueddeutsche.de/muenchen/oeffentlicher-nahverkehr-mvg-chef-stellt-neue-buszuege-vor-1.1761629 [German article]

extracts translation (Google Translate and own)

The axes are electronically controlled, there are five doors, air conditioning ... Tractor and trailer together offer 130 passenger capacity, while an articulated bus length of 18 meters only holds 100 people. The trailer has a large standing area in the middle, which is particularly suitable for pushchairs and wheelchairs. So the vehicle will fit anywhere, the MVG had to extend a few meters even some stops.

... want the new buses running regularly on the busiest lines of the city, which are characterized by strong peaks in the morning and commuting students.....
Also to be used for high capacity needs in the course of major events and Schienenersatzverkehr [Tram / U-Bahn] ...

During the holidays and at weekends, the trailer will remain at the depot, to optimize utilization. This reduces costs and saves fuel, ...
The customer seems to like it: During tests in the summer of the passengers according to a MVG survey had a good impression of the new fleet.

munchkin_utd

bet me to it!

The routes these busses will be allocated to are actually around where I live in Munich. Looking forward to seeing them on the roads soon.
Kindof like Suburban Dublin, the existing busses would be jam packed for a couple of hours in the morning and evening, brisk in the middle of the day or at the weekends, and literally almost empty after say 8pm.
For a route with such variance in loadings its a brilliant idea.

The mumber 60 links one of Germanys largest shopping centres to the Hasenbergl residential area so its traffic is mainly shopping related - so busy at rush hour and brisk over the day but dead when the shops are closed.
The other lines the busses will serve are more U-Bahn feeder services but with a massive peak of school kids and commuters at rush hour.
Either way, the journies would be relatively short so folks dont mind standing for the 5 to 15minutes they are on the bus and the high capacity setup with heaps of standing space works well on the bendy/ "bus train" busses.

The roads in north Munich wouldn't be any different than in say Blanchardstown or any other Suburb of Dublin but at traffic lights the stop lines are set up to allow the wider turning circle of bendy busses.
You can see how they are offset here: https://www.google.de/maps?ll=48.156925,11.614609&spn=0.349495,1.18103&cbp=12,260.9,,1,17.06&layer=c&panoid=Jmvjw0Gevm9S2pvXPrvsOQ&cbll=48.184494,11.573263&dg=opt&t=h&z=11 for example

dfx-

I used to live in Garching and before the U6 was extended to the university, the tiny buses were crammed:eek:

Then they were fairly empty around the city centre whenever I got them at weekends or evenings. I got the impression the pecking order was firstly the u-bahn, then tram network, then the s-bahn and finally the bus network. Are they going to be based where that photo is taken - the Frottmaning 'garage' where the u-bahn stock are kept or just a publicity photo?

lil5

Just a publicity shot according to the article as they needed lots of space to show the whole fleet of buses.

munchkin_utd

dfx- wrote: »

I used to live in Garching and before the U6 was extended to the university, the tiny buses were crammed:eek:

Then they were fairly empty around the city centre whenever I got them at weekends or evenings. I got the impression the pecking order was firstly the u-bahn, then tram network, then the s-bahn and finally the bus network. Are they going to be based where that photo is taken - the Frottmaning 'garage' where the u-bahn stock are kept or just a publicity photo?

yup.
Unlike in Ireland where money grows on trees and paralell subsidised services are allowed to "compete" with each other which is the biggest waste of taxpayers cash (or stupidest reason to make ireland have to borow even more than necessary from the IMF to cover day to day spending) - Munich does have a pecking order

UBahn is expensive to build and run, so you really need to fill those seats so its the core of your network (again, network in the real meaning of the word and not network in the CIE definition of the word where network means 3 separate eco-systems "competing with each other" and trying their best to NOT interconnect)
The trams act as feeders in some areas and as a link to the city centre in its own right the nearer you get to town.
The the busses act as the 3rd tier to bring passengers to their front door or to make local or crosstown journies which would be awkward otherwise.

None is more important than the other as they all contribute to the viability of the other modes, but in order to minimise subsidy requirements each feeds into each other with very little in the way of duplicate services.
The bus network was COMPLETELY rewritten a number of years back to eliminate almost all duplication there BTW. That all came in overnight in one go.

EDIT: the s-bahn is the main artery to the centre for folks in the further suburbs whereas the u bahn is the artery for city folks so essentially would be equal/ equivelant to the U-bahn. Both though rely on busses to bring passengers the last mile to and from their homes.

MGWR

So other than being able to drop off the trailer section, what exactly is the advantage over conventional articulated buses? The additional axles mean more maintenance costs, as well as maintaining trailer hitches versus a more permanent form of coupling. (The "holidays/weekend" argument does not go over well, especially since there can be high volume of travel on both holiday and weekend.)

munchkin_utd

MGWR wrote: »

So other than being able to drop off the trailer section, what exactly is the advantage over conventional articulated buses? The additional axles mean more maintenance costs, as well as maintaining trailer hitches versus a more permanent form of coupling. (The "holidays/weekend" argument does not go over well, especially since there can be high volume of travel on both holiday and weekend.)

theres more capacity over bendy busses for a start so it wont be quite as crowded so its a more attractive service.
Theres also far more space for buggies so for them its a massive improvement (as the drivers wont let you park in the corridor if the couple of spaces on a bendy bus are gone).

There might be maintenance on an extra axle and a coupling BUT the accordian jobbie and existing coupling then dont need looking at.

I can assure you that the volumes of traffic at night are pityful, you're talking of literally only a couple of people on a bendy bus that can take 100 passengers.
The bus+trailer will now take 130 pax and you'd presume the normal bus without trailer something like 60 or 70 - so still well capable of catering for a lot of people.

Of course the 30% higher capacity at peak with no extra need for more drivers or extra services or (heaven forbid) need to tamper with the schedule from its current intervals that run to meet the U-bahns.

The munich timetables are mostly on a 5min/ 10min/ 20 min/ 40min interval all times to coordinate with each other.
If you have a route that is every 10minutes and lands nicely say 4 or 5 minutes before a U Bahn and then screw with it by increasing frequency to every 7.5minutes, then you wont be connecting properly with the ubahn which still goes every 10 minutes - if you get what I mean.

Some busses will land too early relative to the connection to town and some too tight and suddenly the more frequent bus is actually less attractive than the less frequent service!
But by having larger vehicles, youre increasing capacity and keeping your connections

cdebru

The passengers in the trailer are completely isolated from the driver and the rest of the bus, would be one of the main reasons it would not work here, I presume anti social behaviour is not a problem or is just not tolerated on German public transport.

munchkin_utd

cdebru wrote: »

The passengers in the trailer are completely isolated from the driver and the rest of the bus, would be one of the main reasons it would not work here, I presume anti social behaviour is not a problem or is just not tolerated on German public transport.

nope.
Not sure what is termed anti social behaviour, but if its folks smoking/ vandalising/ harassing other passengers - then no none of that happens on the Munich transport system.

Well to be fair, theres very very rare occurrences of something happening as you'd expect in a city of 1 1/2 million (and about 3 million incl the surrounding areas)

dfx-

It just doesn't happen in Munich

Do they still operate the very old tram that has separate compartments?

munchkin_utd

dfx- wrote: »

It just doesn't happen in Munich

Do they still operate the very old tram that has separate compartments?

yup, you see the odd one still trundling about but fairly rare now at this stage.

There was a problem with the certification of the new trams there since 4years ago, so the old ones should be retired by now but they cant be till the Variobahn gets its approval, which it still hasnt got.

Theres aparantly 4 trams with 3 trailers still in service.

dfx-

They'd have the low-floor advocates here recoiling in horror:D

I think it was route 20 or 21 that I got it. It is weird being separated

ted1

Kind of like Dublins infamous Blue Line.
http://dublinobserver.com/2010/10/dublin-blue-line-video-and-map/

etchyed

ted1 wrote: »

Kind of like Dublins infamous Blue Line.
http://dublinobserver.com/2010/10/dublin-blue-line-video-and-map/

Pretty much nothing like it. It was a proposed BRT line which would use articulated buses.

This thread is about new buses which have a separate rear compartment that provides extra capacity in the peak, and can be detached in off-peak periods. They seem pretty unique (I've certainly never heard of or seen them anywhere else) and that is the point of this thread.

And the proposed 'blue line' was barely known about, let alone 'infamous'.

ardmacha

Not sure what is termed anti social behaviour, but if its folks smoking/ vandalising/ harassing other passengers - then no none of that happens on the Munich transport system.

Using the trailer on peak use might not be the worst time, plenty of people about.
Late night use would be the basic bus.

munchkin_utd

dfx- wrote: »

They'd have the low-floor advocates here recoiling in horror:D

I think it was route 20 or 21 that I got it. It is weird being separated

they are now on the 17 line and you can see that the timetable clearly notes the services which are ran by vehicles which arent suitable for disabled folk

http://www.mvg-mobil.de/aushangfahrplan/17_H_HU_0.pdf

munchkin_utd

dfx- wrote: »

I used to live in Garching and before the U6 was extended to the university, the tiny buses were crammed:eek:

Then they were fairly empty around the city centre whenever I got them at weekends or evenings. I got the impression the pecking order was firstly the u-bahn, then tram network, then the s-bahn and finally the bus network. Are they going to be based where that photo is taken - the Frottmaning 'garage' where the u-bahn stock are kept or just a publicity photo?

actually, the pecking order isnt as clear as it seems which I overlooked in my last answer!

So as I said, the U Bahn and S Bahn radiate out from the centre and are the main backbone of the network.
Some trams are supplimentary routes to the city and some are feeders for the Heavier rail route.
The busses though are split in 2, "Metro Bus" and "City Bus". Both provide cross town often radial services as feeders to heavy rail. And both actually have the same density/ spacing of stops.
Metro bus though runs later and more frequent in general and links multiple heavy rail nodes and its always a bendy bus. Its easily identifiable as they are the double digit bus route numbers.
City bus routes are everything else, so low frequency routes and other suburban runs, sometimes even operated by minibus off peak. And they are a 3 digit number.

And keeping on the bus theme, there's a new express crosstown line in the south of the city to start in December with the new timetable as an experiment for a couple of years. The purpose is to provide a shortcut for folks going between the south of the city to the east of the city which should take pressure off trains and the overcrowded Sendlinger Tor station.
Stops will only be a kilometre apart mostly at Underground stations so almost a BRT system.

But anyhow, you can see how it is truely a system with everything interlinking with each other but the one thing essential to such an efficient and integrated system is a common tarif + ticketing system with changes encouraged not penalised.
And of course, no fancy smartcards are needed to have such a system, just paper tickets.

Bus wise, yes they are "relegated" to suburban runs as feeders and community services but with the high use of public transport, busses still have a gigantic place in the system to get people to and from their homes and the local attractiveness of the service is enhanced as the busses are fairly reliable seeing as they never hit the worst of the city centre traffic - unlike in Dublin.

munchkin_utd

These busses are now in service
(and I just see that the numberplates reflect the company name + fleet number! Never knew that before)



http://www.muenchen-busse.de/bg-mvg49-U12.html

munchkin_utd

cdebru wrote: »

The passengers in the trailer are completely isolated from the driver and the rest of the bus, would be one of the main reasons it would not work here, I presume anti social behaviour is not a problem or is just not tolerated on German public transport.

no, theres definitely no-one smoking crack cocaine openly on a bus in Munich like what you may see in Dublin!
Are there no guards in Dublin, or are they too involved with processing favours to get folks off driving tickets?

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/women-openly-smoke-crack-cocaine-on-dublin-bus-30123780.html

and anyhow to get on the topic in hand, is a trailer any different from being separated from the driver on the top deck of a double decker?

munchkin_utd

just an update, these busses with trailers have been such a success that theres another tranche of them due to enter service next week bringing the total up to 50 units in operation, being deployed on busier routes and as a relief bus for school runs at peak times.
http://www.muenchen.de/aktuell/2016-09/buszuege-mvg-auf-zusaetzlichen-linien.html?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=portal&utm_campaign=news

dfx-

munchkin_utd wrote: »

And keeping on the bus theme, there's a new express crosstown line in the south of the city to start in December with the new timetable as an experiment for a couple of years. The purpose is to provide a shortcut for folks going between the south of the city to the east of the city which should take pressure off trains and the overcrowded Sendlinger Tor station. Stops will only be a kilometre apart mostly at Underground stations so almost a BRT system.

How has this worked out?

Cookie_Monster

Malmo has similar super buses, i noted on a recent trip, slightly nicer looking too

AlekSmart

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Malmo has similar super buses, i noted on a recent trip, slightly nicer looking too

Same family of Van-Hool bodied vehicles which Belfast has ordered 30 for it's phase 1 BRT scheme,which also last week saw the signing of a new order for Ticketing and SmartCard equipment to upgrade the entire Translink network....

http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/roads/belfastrapidtransit.html

http://www.parkeon.co.uk/news-and-events/news/parkeon-technology-partners-45-million-public-transport-ticketing-investment-northern-ireland/

That's Belfast,and the Northern Ireland Office for ye....anyway,back down South,the National Transport Authority has decided to postpone the first of our BRT lines (Swords to St Stephens Green) whilst it commissions (yet another) "review" of the situation.....

I suppose,we should be eternally grateful that the NTA was'nt in charge of the Apollo programme......:(

munchkin_utd

dfx- wrote: »

How has this worked out?

(re cross town express bus in Munich)
Its still there and passenger numbers reported last year were up to 9000 per day (so about 2.8million passengers a year?) with many avoiding a trip to the centre by underground so the bosses seem happy enough.

cgcsb

You can't really blame the NTA, I'm certain if the government provided the funding they would execute these schemes with gusto. The government doesn't want these schemes done.

munchkin_utd

cgcsb wrote: »

You can't really blame the NTA, I'm certain if the government provided the funding they would execute these schemes with gusto. The government doesn't want these schemes done.

its also a problem that Dublin has An Lár -itis, in that busses are there to provide the backbone of mass transit to the city centre (starting from peoples doorstep without a change), which is insane and only leads to desperate travel times and therefore more incentive to use your car which only leads to more congestion and even slower busses.
If your bendy busses need to go into the city centre rather than link to a rail system or have some other special arrangement, its proven to be a disaster in Ireland.

in Munich and all half ways advanced cities, even in the likes of Boston, rail is your mass transit and busses link up the missing bits with an odd cross town express or whatever. So Bendy busses on the whole are going around estates in the suburbs which have no tight bends.

I read that the Munich underground and tram network (sbahn and heavy rail aside) is getting investment of 2.9billion over the next 10 years (see page 3 here ). And thats investment and expansion on a network in a city the size of Dublin which ALREADY has a fully functional underground system with 96 stations and separate tram system with 166 stops (btw, unlike in Dublin a "stop" consists of an inbound and outbound platform, so no double accounting!).
What Dublin needs is mindboggling, but thats another topic and thread.