RTE The Scholarship

marilynhappy

Did anyone watch this last night? Thoughts/opinions?

I thought it was very interesting- in terms of showing the difficult backgrounds and circumstances faced by some/many Dublin students. That, for me, was the most enlightening part of the programme, but it also saddened me to watch it. (I know, most teachers see this in their day-to-day work, but thiis documentary certainly offered an insight too.)

What did everyone else think?
ps.Apologies if there is already a thread for this!!

byhookorbycrook

I find the whole idea rather patronising .

marilynhappy

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

I find the whole idea rather patronising .

Really? In what way exactly? You may have a point. I'm not necessarily arguing...just interested in what you mean by this

mick kk

It was promoting the school IMO.
The principal/teacher from the school spoke about how the 2 hour presentation was daunting/intimidating for parents and the children[who are 11/12 years old]...so why do it? I guess, it makes their school look elite.
Why not change the format of this aspect of the enrolment if people can't connect with it by their own admission. It is the job of educators to make information accessible to their audience so they should find a way of making this less intimidating.

One child had a reference that referred to the fact that he had changed his approach/commitment to school and now was a good student.....as a result of this reference the principal [I think that's who he was] decided that the student had the potential to misbehave/disengage again. I feel sorry for whoever wrote that reference.

It was portrayed also that if the students don't get in then that is it for them! There is no hope which is simply not the case, although some of them are living in tough circumstances.

The whole thing just doesn't seem right.

byhookorbycrook

It's a kind of token form of "look at us being all inclusive we even take ,x,y,z" Is there any need to broadcast that the children are there on a scholarship?

Joaquin223

mick kk wrote: »

...as a result of this reference the principal [I think that's who he was] decided that the student had the potential to misbehave/disengage again...

He's not the principal, but he is high up in the school (assistant deputy headmaster), but you're right it was a very odd comment to make, especially on camera.

Inspector Coptoor

The school had zero editorial control over this programme & if you think that sort of warts and all programme is promotional, you're sorely mistaken.

People who come out and state this seem to have a real chip on their shoulders regarding few paying schools.

Yes, the facilities in Belvo are excellent, and every school should be as well kitted out, sadly, the government aren't prioritising capital investment like this, so in the absence of leadership from government, why blame parents for spending their net income, most of it after paying 56%+ in tax, on giving their kids a headstart?

The social diversity scheme in the school tries to give 10% of kids in each year group the chance of an educational experience they otherwise couldn't have access too in a way that is inclusive & sustainable.

It's a shame it's only 10% but that is all the books allow.

joebloggs32

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

The school had zero editorial control over this programme & if you think that sort of warts and all programme is promotional, you're sorely mistaken.

People who come out and skate this seem to have a real chip on their shoulders regarding few paying schools.

Yes, the facilities in Belvo are excellent, and every school should be as well kitted out, sadly, the government aren't prioritusing capital investment like this, so in the absence of leadership from government, why blame parents for spending their net income, most of it after paying 56%+ in tax, on giving their kids a headstart?

The social diversity scheme in the school tries to give 10% of kids in each year group the chance of an educational experience they otherwise couldn't have access too in a way that is inclusive & sustainable.

It's a shame it's only 10% but that is all the books allow.

I'm sure what the DES pays in salaries to this fee paying school more than covers the cost of thos 10%.

Inspector Coptoor

I'm sure it does too, it would cover it 5 times over I'd say.
What's your point?
Teaching is a people & pay roll heavy profession.

Every child is entitled to state funding for his/her education.

In the public sector that equates to 1/19 of a teacher.

In the private sector that us now up to 1/23 of a teacher.
This will more than likely increase further in the next budget.

The rest of the funds needed to run the school come from fees.

hfallada

I went to another private school in Dublin and not once did we see any students from a disadvantaged background on the belvo rugby team. Neither did any of my friends talk about students from the local areas. I was with the Belvo guys at oxygen and all I heard was well spoken accents.

There might be some students from disadvantaged backgrounds in the school. But their must be very few. I have a feeling the show will be an advert for belvo. I don't know why rte didn't do a documentary on the plenty of other geninue middle class fee paying schools. I went one where everyone in my class, had both parents working. No very many went on foreign holidays and a majority of families shopped in lidl. I don't think belvedere is a fair representation of fee paying schools in Ireland.

Inspector Coptoor

hfallada wrote: »

I went to another private school in Dublin and not once did we see any students from a disadvantaged background on the belvo rugby team. Neither did any of my friends talk about students from the local areas. I was with the Belvo guys at oxygen and all I heard was well spoken accents.

There might be some students from disadvantaged backgrounds in the school. But their must be very few. I have a feeling the show will be an advert for belvo. I don't know why rte didn't do a documentary on the plenty of other geninue middle class fee paying schools. I went one where everyone in my class, had both parents working. No very many went on foreign holidays and a majority of families shopped in lidl. I don't think belvedere is a fair representation of fee paying schools in Ireland.

Just FYI, this film was made by Loose Horse Productions, an independent film company, who RTE would have paid to air the show.

RTE had no input into it.

I find the rest of your comment baffling.

Of the 1005 boys enrolled in Belvo, at least 90 are on the scholarship scheme & it averages at 2-3 boys per class of 28.

Hermione*

hfallada wrote: »

I went to another private school in Dublin and not once did we see any students from a disadvantaged background on the belvo rugby team. Neither did any of my friends talk about students from the local areas. I was with the Belvo guys at oxygen and all I heard was well spoken accents.

There might be some students from disadvantaged backgrounds in the school. But their must be very few. I have a feeling the show will be an advert for belvo. I don't know why rte didn't do a documentary on the plenty of other geninue middle class fee paying schools. I went one where everyone in my class, had both parents working. No very many went on foreign holidays and a majority of families shopped in lidl. I don't think belvedere is a fair representation of fee paying schools in Ireland.

The College have a policy of not publicising the boys who are on scholarship. I would agree that it's not representative as, afaik, the majority do not offer scholarships on the scale of Belvedere.

I recall RTE had a similar profile of Clongowes Wood in the early Noughties.

Miss Lockhart

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

People who come out and skate this seem to have a real chip on their shoulders regarding few paying schools.

This is a cheap, cop out phrase wheeled out by just about every supporter of fee-paying schools. There are many valid criticisms and concerns regarding how these schools are run and funded. You are, of course entitled to disagree with these opinions, but this tired and predictable soundbite does your position no favours.

evolving_doors

joebloggs32 wrote: »

I'm sure what the DES pays in salaries to this fee paying school more than covers the cost of thos 10%.

I think you'll find that what the DES pays in Salaries goes to the teachers and not to the school!

I think the program is just trying to copy one I saw before but in the UK..same principle...'poor' kid waits by phone/letterbox to see if they have a future whilst being filmed for our entertainment. In a way it makes you buy into the 'opportunities' that these schools offer..but at the end of it all I'm wondering have we missed the real question.

What is wrong with all the schools that these 'disadvantaged' kids and their peers go to..?

(although from what I gather, in the case of belvo where these 'local' 'disadvantaged' kids are from, the schools have been closed and students go to satellite schools outside the area).Im not saying that these kids shouldn't be let in but in a way it kind of smells of class discrimination and tokenism. The 'better off' getting to feel good about their charitable causes. It reminds me of something said in that Lynch and Lodge book about Equality and Power in schools.. it was something along the lines of Religious orders 'needing' to educate the poor to justify their 'charitable' existence but inadvertently serving to bolster their sense of superiority..(im open to correction here)

I have talked to someone who went to belvo and other teachers who have come across the students (through schools competitions etc) about these '10% students' and generally they have nothing but high praise for the positive outcomes of this policy...(As an aside..its interesting that it's always known or made known that 'oh yeah he's one of our charity kids btw')..

Im just wondering does the tv programme have any message really or is it just providing us with rubber-necking entertainment so we can feel good about ourselves when the kid gets in or not.. car crash reality tv etc...I dont think the tv program has anything to offer the viewer in the way of information or answers, but inadvertently , by omission, it does raise a lot of questions about what is going on outside the walls of this school.

spurious

It is not just financial difficulties that discourage/prevent kids from inner city Dublin and other 'disadvantaged areas' accessing places like Belvedere, or indeed taking as full a part in education as children from other areas do.

Even when the monetary issues are addressed the other difficulties can show themselves and some scholarship children end up back in the local school.

I've taught a number of 'the returnees' over my career. I couldn't really see any great difference academically between them and the kids who chose our school in the first place. Some did very well, some didn't.

COYW

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

It's a shame it's only 10% but that is all the books allow.

And it will be less than 10% if the powers that be, championed by the chip on the shoulder merchants, get the private school subs cut. Fair play to Belvo for running this scheme.

Joaquin223 wrote: »

He's not the principal, but he is high up in the school (assistant deputy headmaster), but you're right it was a very odd comment to make, especially on camera.

He was a strange fellow. He also passed a remark about Eastern European children going home straight after school to mix with their own community, as opposed to partaking in school activities, which I thought was strange.

2011abc

COYW wrote: »

And it will be less than 10% if the powers that be, championed by the chip on the shoulder merchants, get the private school subs cut. Fair play to Belvo for running this scheme.

Chip on the shoulder merchants ???!!!Hahaaaaa ,you mean the 95% of us who cant afford to send our kids to 'Belvo'!!!And lets make it crystal clear that is because in the majority of cases your parents and their parents were BORN rich -I was born into typical 'middle' middle class environment ,I worked hard in school and went to college ,got my degree.My children will never go to Belvo ....The social and economic status of the majority of teachers is steadily falling for the last two decades and is nosediving in last few years .If there is a Yes vote in HR ballot it is gone forever...

Inspector Coptoor

And I come from the same background.
Mother a nurse, Dad a Garda, 4 kids in the family.

The only interaction I had with private school growing up was reading Ross O Carroll Kelly.

My opinion has changed as I have now worked in a private school in Portugal, as well as two in Ireland, including Belvo.

you wouldnt believe how many parents in the school are average middle class people who are making great sacrifices to send their kids to the school and they'll tell you it's worth it.

It might sound strange, but there really is just something about the place.

Miss Lockhart

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

It might sound strange, but there really is just something about the place.

It doesn't sound strange at all. If that's your experience then that's fair enough (mine has been very different).

What's strange is the immediate dismissal of any and all concerns and criticisms with meaningless catchphrases. Lots of those opposed to fee paying schools have plenty of personal experience with them.

errlloyd

It saddened me when 10 or 11 year old boys were putting private school up on a pedestal as something they needed. When I see the effort the school puts in to attract the most deserving candidates it contrasts so sharply to my own experience of going to a similar school perhaps without deserving it as much.

Fair play to the parents, it must be incredibly difficult to do it. Actually the whole thing had quite an effect on me.

evolving_doors

2011abc wrote: »

Chip on the shoulder merchants ???!!!Hahaaaaa ,you mean the 95% of us who cant afford to send our kids to 'Belvo'!!!And lets make it crystal clear that is because in the majority of cases your parents and their parents were BORN rich -I was born into typical 'middle' middle class environment ,I worked hard in school and went to college ,got my degree.My children will never go to Belvo ....The social and economic status of the majority of teachers is steadily falling for the last two decades and is nosediving in last few years .If there is a Yes vote in HR ballot it is gone forever...

Average yearly fees for day secondary school is 5k, whats the yearly fees for creches in Ireland? 12k! many middle class families do find a way to send their kids to fee paying schools the same way others sacrifice for creche fees and they do make sacrifices to do so, it aint all the rich Ivor Lott types that you seem to imagine.
Ive seen long term unemployed fathers spend their days hopping between the bookies and the pub (with plenty of fag breaks in between)...do the maths..the money can be found if you are willing to sacrifice..

I'm not suggesting that you 'should' be sending your kids to a fee charging school as there are good non fee charging schools about...but to stereotype those parents as rich doesn't really bear out the reality that I witness...

Believe me, there is an agenda on Ruairi Quinns part to paint himself as a socialist fighting the good fight against those nasty fee charging schools...but we all know there is a big difference between what he says in public and does elsewhere...why?..votes of course..
He says that schools policy can't discriminate against students with SEN and they must do their part...but yet he wont provide the bloody resources for the kids when they do get in.
He then reveals to us lately that we dont have a world class education system (obviously blaming teachers!) And we should be more like Narnia and other utopias...wonder how were supposed to achieve that Ruairi when we are being sent down the performance measurement path of the UK...

Bit of a digression there but my overall point is that the agenda being put out by Ruairi Quinn and other lazy journalists isnt about the underfunded education system...the agenda is against the whole teaching profession... In public AND fee charging schools.

Universities charge fees too, no?

TarfHead

hfallada wrote: »

I went to another private school in Dublin and not once did we see any students from a disadvantaged background on the belvo rugby team.

There was an article in the Irish Times at the weekend about this documentary. Part of the article profiled Ger Brennan, current Dublin footballer, a previous beneficiary under this scheme.

Ger has a Leinster School's Cup medal, same team as Cian Healy.

I am unclear on how an opposing player would know the basis on which of the Belvedere team was on scholarship and who was not ? A 'Dublin' accent ? Cian Healy has one of those, but was not, AFAIK, in Belvedere as part of this scheme.

There are between 150 and 200 pupils in each year in Belvedere. Around 10% of them benefit from this scheme. There are 15 on a rugby team.

donegal11

Armelodie wrote: »

Average yearly fees for day secondary school is 5k, whats the yearly fees for creches in Ireland? 12k! many middle class families do find a way to send their kids to fee paying schools the same way others sacrifice for creche fees and they do make sacrifices to do so, it aint all the rich Ivor Lott types that you seem to imagine.
Ive seen long term unemployed fathers spend their days hopping between the bookies and the pub (with plenty of fag breaks in between)...do the maths..the money can be found if you are willing to sacrifice..

I'm not suggesting that you 'should' be sending your kids to a fee charging school as there are good non fee charging schools about...but to stereotype those parents as rich doesn't really bear out the reality that I witness...

So as long as the so called middle class can afford it makes it alright. The type of education you get shouldn't be dictated by the amount of money your parents have and when it does the state shouldn't be exaggerating the effect by subsidizing them. Implying that the unemployed could somehow send there children there if they made sacrifices is quite bizarre and would show me how out of touch you really are.

TarfHead

donegal11 wrote: »

The type of education you get shouldn't be dictated by the amount of money your parents have and when it does the state shouldn't be exaggerating the effect by subsidizing them.

In an ideal world the education offered by fee paying schools would be offered by all schools. Ireland is a small country so can't afford to provide top-class education to all. Or a top-level class health service.

Not sure what you mean about 'subsidizing'. To give them nothing would be unequal. What they give them is less than they give in the non fee paying sector. There is no consensus on how big or small that difference is but there is consensus that it is less.

RainyDay

TarfHead wrote: »

In an ideal world the education offered by fee paying schools would be offered by all schools. Ireland is a small country so can't afford to provide top-class education to all.

How did you deduce that private schools provide top class education? How did you measure this?

Miss Lockhart

TarfHead wrote: »

Not sure what you mean about 'subsidizing'. To give them nothing would be unequal..

That is one opinion. Another is that so long as each child is offered a subsidised place in some school then it is not unequal to refuse to fund teaching in fee-paying schools if parents refuse that place offered.

TarfHead

RainyDay wrote: »

How did you deduce that private schools provide top class education? How did you measure this?

It was not my intention to suggest that, or for that to be inferred from what I posted.

The post I responded to suggested that the education gets better the more you're prepared to pay. The education provided by Belvedere is what all schools should provide, but the Irish State cannot afford that level of educational provision.

TarfHead

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

That is one opinion. Another is that so long as each child is offered a subsidised place in some school then it is not unequal to refuse to fund teaching in fee-paying schools if parents refuse that place offered.

That would be a sinister precedent.

RainyDay

TarfHead wrote: »

The post I responded to suggested that the education gets better the more you're prepared to pay. The education provided by Belvedere is what all schools should provide, but the Irish State cannot afford that level of educational provision.

I still don't get it. What specifically is it about Belvedere/private schools that you believe is better quality education than public schools?

Berticus

All schools should aspire to reach the standards set by most private fee paying schools. From what i saw Belvedere has a huge amount to offer students that attend it's school, far more than rugby and obtaining high leaving cert points. I think this was the priest's whole point about Eastern Europeans whom had previously attended the school - they simply don't take advantage of everything the school offers and when there are 60 kids who applied and only 8 non-brother places on offer, only kids that are likely to take full advantage of everything the school can provide should be accepted.

It really seems to be an irish thing that we begrudge other people. This scheme should be commended rather than criticised. There is no doubt about it that this scheme is a positive thing and for people to find fault in it is simply incorrect. I see belvedere does a huge amount if work for charities throughout the year, I'm pretty sure every Christmas they make the news for the sleep out thing they do around the GPO.

No, not everybody can afford to send their sons to fee paying schools but the reality is that the biggest influence on students in their education is the home environment, ie parents. So really if a kid goes to a public school and has very supportive parents, there's no reason that kid could not fulfil their potential. Sending a kid to the likes of belvedere is really paying for the "other stuff".

byhookorbycrook

A number of private schools cherry pick .The new draft guidelines on enrolment aim to make the pitch more level, the guidelines certainly take a lot of tweaking but might just help.

A number of fee paying schools have now entered the "public" system, why haven't others?