Just a reminder how much of a joke CC tax is.

Supergurrier

Car out of tax just over 3 weeks as I'm having an expensive month.

Go to website to pay and notice while 3 months is 365e or 122e a month arrears (which are designed as a penalty) is only 107.83.

Just goes to show how much rates have gone up when arrears is falling behind.

tl;dr lolmotortaxwhinethread

Kenny Logins

Yeah, arrears is the cheapest way to it.

_Kaiser_

I don't follow - maybe it's cause I'm only halfway through my second coffee

The arrears are charged in addition to the standard rate though right? So there's no either/or here - if you decide to leave it and get caught you'll still have to fork out for 3 month's tax (at a minimum) PLUS the arrears for each month since it last was taxed.

Or am I missing something?

blastman

Noticed this recently alright, it's only a small crumb of comfort in the general thorough shafting, though.

biko

http://www.environ.ie/en/LocalGovernment/MotorTax/

When must I pay motor tax?
Liability for motor tax arises when a vehicle is used in a public place/road. Motor tax discs are issued for periods of three, six, or 12 whole calendar months and are not issued in respect of months already elapsed. Vehicles with an annual tax of 99 euro or less can only be taxed for a 12-month period. As discs are issued for whole calendar months, the preferred option on first taxing is to register or first use the vehicle early in a month. Vehicle owners who first tax a recently registered vehicle after 28 May 2004 will be issued with a new Vehicle Registration Certificate by the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Computer Services Division (Department of Transport).
It should be noted that there is a surcharge for non-annual discs and motor tax should be paid when due, as monthly arrears are charged at one tenth of the annual rate.

CiniO

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

I don't follow - maybe it's cause I'm only halfway through my second coffee

The arrears are charged in addition to the standard rate though right? So there's no either/or here - if you decide to leave it and get caught you'll still have to fork out for 3 month's tax (at a minimum) PLUS the arrears for each month since it last was taxed.

Or am I missing something?

You are missing something.

Arrears is payment for months which car was untaxed but should be taxed (f.e. was used on the road).

Arrears are counted as 1/12 of annual payment.

So if your tax expired on end of June, and you want to tax it now, you will have to pay arrears for July and August, and then f.e. tax it for 3 months from now, which will be September, October, November.

Assume annual rate is 1200 (theretically).

Arrears are counted as 1/12 of annual rate, so they are 100 per month, so you will pay 200 euros in arrears.

3 month tax is calculated as 28.25% of annual rate, so you will pay 339 for 3 months.

Kenny Logins

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

I don't follow - maybe it's cause I'm only halfway through my second coffee

The arrears are charged in addition to the standard rate though right? So there's no either/or here - if you decide to leave it and get caught you'll still have to fork out for 3 month's tax (at a minimum) PLUS the arrears for each month since it last was taxed.

Or am I missing something?

€365 in advance or €323.49 in arrears.

djimi

Basically its cheaper to tax your car 3 x 3 months plus 1 months arrears, than it is to tax it 4 x 3 months. There is no real penalty to paying a month in arrears, other than the risk of being fined if caught with no tax disc on display.

Just goes to show how much rates have gone up when arrears is falling behind.

Arrears are calculated as a percentage of the annual tax rate, so as rates go up so do arrears.

_Kaiser_

CiniO wrote: »

You are missing something.

Arrears is payment for months which car was untaxed but should be taxed (f.e. was used on the road).

Arrears are counted as 1/12 of annual payment.

So if your tax expired on end of June, and you want to tax it now, you will have to pay arrears for July and August, and then f.e. tax it for 3 months from now, which will be September, October, November.

Assume annual rate is 1200 (theretically).

Arrears are counted as 1/12 of annual rate, so they are 100 per month, so you will pay 200 euros in arrears.

3 month tax is calculated as 28.25% of annual rate, so you will pay 339 for 3 months.

Right, so I'm paying my 3 months @ 339 + 2x month's arrears @ €200

So yes, the monthly arrears amount < 1 month's tax

But seeing as arrears are a penalty there's no reason to be on par with the other rates and given that monthly payment of tax isn't an option (unfortunately ) I still don't get the issue unless it's that the arrears SHOULD be the same as the monthly cost? (339/3).

It's not an either or.. unless the argument is that you don't tax it and (hopefully) get to drive it for long enough that it works out cheaper in the longer term/when you DO finally get caught?
Except THEN you do need to pay the whole lot in one sum AND you're off the road until you do. (Not worth it IMO, nor the constant watching over your shoulder in fear of a Garda car/traffic warden)

I'm probably having a hard time with the "benefits" of this cause I do pay my tax on time (stupidly perhaps given how little we get back for it) but would love the option to do so by the month , minus the ridiculous "admin fee" that's currently charged for those of us who can't afford it in one lump sum.

djimi

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

It's not an either or.. unless the argument is that you don't tax it and (hopefully) get to drive it for long enough that it works out cheaper in the longer term/when you DO finally get caught?
Except THEN you do need to pay the whole lot in one sum AND you're off the road until you do. (Not worth it IMO, nor the constant watching over your shoulder in fear of a Garda car/traffic warden)

You dont even have to drive for that long for it to make a difference. Take a 1.7l car (€636 a year):

3 months tax = €179 x 4 = €716 for a year
3 months tax = €179 + 1 months arrears = €53 x 3 = €696 for a year

It might not be a significant saving, but €20 is €20 all the same! No risk of having the car seized for being out by a month either.

Im not condoning this btw, nor am I saying that this is how I pay my tax! Im simply pointing out the flaw in the system.

cabb8ge

cc tax rates not too much a joke for anyone who bought since the emissions ones were introduced

djimi

cabb8ge wrote: »

cc tax rates not too much a joke for anyone who bought since the emissions ones were introduced

Or for those of us who drive a car that actually works out more expensive to tax on the newer system :pac:

allthedoyles

Is there any hope of them reducing the minimum 3 months to less , or bringing in an easy payment scheme .like monthly direct debit .

Supergurrier

allthedoyles wrote: »

Is there any hope of them reducing the minimum 3 months to less , or bringing in an easy payment scheme .like monthly direct debit .

About as much chance as the rates beingreducend.

If the rates were anyways reasonable everyone would comply and pay annually.

We are part of the EU yet when it suits the Irish government to turn the screw on its citizens through vrt and stupid tax rates

The tax model in Ireland is all over the place too heavily leaning on standardized rates for all where it should be more heavily earnings based.

People need fuel cars coal houses etc that's a given so why keep screwing the little guy. Tax on income.

_Kaiser_

Supergurrier wrote: »

About as much chance as the rates beingreducend.

If the rates were anyways reasonable everyone would comply and pay annually.

We are part of the EU yet when it suits the Irish government to turn the screw on its citizens through vrt and stupid tax rates

The tax model in Ireland is all over the place too heavily leaning on standardized rates for all where it should be more heavily earnings based.

People need fuel cars coal houses etc that's a given so why keep screwing the little guy. Tax on income.

It's because the Irish voter is so allergic to the term "income tax increase" that instead we get a pile of increasingly ridiculous levies, fees, charges etc - all of which are poured into the same pot/pit anyway.

If they dropped all the USC/Broadcasting Charge/Household Charge etc nonsense and just increased income tax as a percentage of pay then it'd hit everyone more fairly and as a result people would know where they stand at the end of the month (and in theory) everyone would pay less overall.

(Of course you'd have to get rid of all the "exemptions" that some can get for the above first...)

It's the same with Motor Tax. In the main people don't pay it because they can't afford it - not to "stick it to the man". That's because the pricing model is unfair and discriminatory - particularly if you have an older car and can't afford the lump sum payment - and because there's very little return for it: most roads are still shite with the exception of the motorways, enforcement of anything beyond "speeding" is non-existent and the cost of fuel is also high (most of which is made up of tax as well).

But because those at the top can legally (if morally dubiously) rid themselves of most of their tax burden, and those at the lower-end of the scale are exempt from most of it, it's the middle earners that are squeezed for everything

As someone who was raised that you pay your bills first and you take responsibility for your actions and decisions, this country and its attitudes really do sicken me sometimes. Were it not for my own circumstances I'd probably have emigrated years ago.

cabb8ge

Supergurrier wrote: »

.-The tax model in Ireland is all over the place too heavily leaning on standardized rates for all where it should be more heavily earnings based.---.

taxes at higher rate combine to be over 50%, fyi
you think that should be more?

mullingar

I agree, pure madness.

To tax my yoke for the year is €1494, but I dont want to tax it for the year as I could kill it or sell it.

4x 3months = €1688
3x 4months (3+1 arrears) = 3x(422+124.50)=1639.50 (saving nearly €50)
2x 6months (3+3 arrears) = 2x(422+3*124.50)= 1591 (saving nearly €100)



I dont think people realise that by paying every 1/4 you are paying the equivalent APR of 25%!!!!


If I did decide to tax it for the year and put in on the credit card @9.9% it works out a little cheaper as it would cost €131/month, €393/quarter and €1572 for the year.

Either way, the vaseline is a must

allthedoyles

But if you leave it expire don't you face prospect of 2 summons .

1. - no tax
2 . no tax displayed

@ 60e each

Supergurrier

allthedoyles wrote: »

But if you leave it expire don't you face prospect of 2 summons .

1. - no tax
2 . no tax displayed

@ 60e each

Nobody is evading tax here just making a observation at how out of control tax rates have gotten when the arrears which are designed to be a deterrent are flagging behind.

keithclancy

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

It's the same with Motor Tax. In the main people don't pay it because they can't afford it - not to "stick it to the man". That's because the pricing model is unfair and discriminatory - particularly if you have an older car and can't afford the lump sum payment - and because there's very little return for it: most roads are still shite with the exception of the motorways, enforcement of anything beyond "speeding" is non-existent and the cost of fuel is also high (most of which is made up of tax as well).

The reason the older cars are cheap is because of tax.

Supergurrier

keithclancy wrote: »

The reason the older cars are cheap is because of tax.

Who wouldn't rather pay 10-15% more ona sub 10k car than pay 1000+ annually on tax

keithclancy

Supergurrier wrote: »

Who wouldn't rather pay 10-15% more ona sub 10k car than pay 1000+ annually on tax

Someone who only wants a car for a year.

Red Kev

allthedoyles wrote: »

Is there any hope of them reducing the minimum 3 months to less , or bringing in an easy payment scheme .like monthly direct debit .

will be introducing it when he comes into power at the next election.

CiniO

Anyway - this is all just hypothetical chat, as from 1st July 2013 all the arrears are charged as 1/10 of annual rate, so it's not worth to pay any arrears anymore.

djimi

CiniO wrote: »

Anyway - this is all just hypothetical chat, as from 1st July 2013 all the arrears are charged as 1/10 of annual rate, so it's not worth to pay any arrears anymore.

Someone needs to update the rates page on motortax.ie then because the arrears there are still calculated at 1/12th of the annual rate.

CiniO

djimi wrote: »

Someone needs to update the rates page on motortax.ie then because the arrears there are still calculated at 1/12th of the annual rate.

Possibly someone has to:


Here's relevant act:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2013/en/act/pub/0016/print.html

b) by inserting the following subsection after subsection (1A):

“(1AB) (a) In this subsection—

‘additional charge’ means an amount which—

(i) when added to one-twelfth of the annual rate of duty of excise equals a sum which is one-tenth of the annual rate of the duty of excise, and

(ii) is payable on the licence in respect of each month of the period of arrears,

and where a person is liable to pay an additional charge under this subsection as well as the duty of excise charged and levied on a vehicle under section 1 of the Act of 1952 and payable on a licence under that section of that Act, and the product of the calculation of the additional charge and duty of excise concerned is not a whole number of euro, the amount shall be rounded down to the nearest whole number of euro;

And here's relevant commencement order which putting above part of law into operation.:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2013/en/si/0232.html

Anan1

Supergurrier wrote: »

Who wouldn't rather pay 10-15% more ona sub 10k car than pay 1000+ annually on tax

Where did you get the figure of 10-15%?

djimi

‘additional charge’ means an amount which—

(i) when added to one-twelfth of the annual rate of duty of excise equals a sum which is one-tenth of the annual rate of the duty of excise, and

Im going to be totally honest, I havent got a bulls notion what that sentence means; it reads like something that found its way through Google Translate :pac: I dont speak good legal English...

Why does it mention 1/12th and 1/10th of the annual rate?

CiniO

djimi wrote: »

Im going to be totally honest, I havent got a bulls notion what that sentence means; it reads like something that found its way through Google Translate :pac: I dont speak good legal English...

Why does it mention 1/12th and 1/10th of the annual rate?

Indeed it looks complicated, but it's probably because it's not complete text, but just amendment adding something to the old act.

Also I bolded not all relevant text.
You should read it all together:

‘additional charge’ means an amount which when added to one-twelfth of the annual rate of duty of excise equals a sum which is one-tenth of the annual rate of the duty of excise, and is payable on the licence in respect of each month of the period of arrears,

So in short - act requires to pay arrears at 1/12 of annual rate of duty.
But they wanted to make it 1/10 (which is bigger amount) so they add "additional charge" to 1/12 of annual rate, so sum equals 1/10 of annual rate.

And this amendment tells us that we will have to pay this additional charge on top of normal 1/12 rate for arrears, so effectively we will pay 1/10.

For some reason only motortax website was not updated yet, and I'm not actually sure if motortax offices charge the higher rates. But by law they are fully allowed to charge the higher ones.

If you remember, it used to be 1/10 for years, and only changes probably last year to 1/12.
I strongly doubt that anyone in the government decided to amend it to 1/12, so what probably happened is that law didn't allow for charging 1/10 and someone must have found out, and they had to stop charging 1/10.
And now this amendment is just quick fix, to make it legal to motortax offices to charge arrears at 1/10.

djimi

Ah okay, gotcha. What a roundabout way to describe an increase from 1/12th to 1/10th!

PurvesGrundy

keithclancy wrote: »

The reason the older cars are cheap is because of tax.

Just take a look on UK Autotrader. Ireland is not the only country where 15 year old 7 Series can be picked up for pocket change.

Motor tax in this country is pure farcical and if our nation had any balls they would do something about it. There is no country in the world with a tax system like ours.

visual

PurvesGrundy wrote: »

Just take a look on UK Autotrader. Ireland is not the only country where 15 year old 7 Series can be picked up for pocket change.

Motor tax in this country is pure farcical and if our nation had any balls they would do something about it. There is no country in the world with a tax system like ours.

Thats because we needed to subsidise the elite who wanted new BMWs and Mercedes diesels

With the Green party gloating at the poor plebs who couldn't afford new cars having to pay for it.

Anan1

PurvesGrundy wrote: »

There is no country in the world with a tax system like ours.

Nonsense. Denmark and Holland are two examples that immediately spring to mind.

wexie

PurvesGrundy wrote: »

There is no country in the world with a tax system like ours.

If you're referring to pricing you need to go back and do some research.

In holland for example motortax goes by weight. For a 2007 3.0D X5 you'd pay € 2396 :eek: (same for a 2008 BTW).....

2008 Ford Focus Estate 1.6 tdci (1386kg).........1436 :eek:
2008 Ford Focus Estate 1.6 (petrol) (1277kg)....648

If you're referring to the inequity between pre and post 2008 you may well be right.

PurvesGrundy

Anan1 wrote: »

Nonsense. Denmark and Holland are two examples that immediately spring to mind.

Denmark is highly taxed for the purchase of cars.

wexie wrote: »

If you're referring to pricing you need to go back and do some research.

In holland for example motortax goes by weight. For a 2007 3.0D X5 you'd pay € 2396 :eek: (same for a 2008 BTW).....

2008 Ford Focus Estate 1.6 tdci (1386kg).........1436 :eek:
2008 Ford Focus Estate 1.6 (petrol) (1277kg)....648

If you're referring to the inequity between pre and post 2008 you may well be right.

Even at that, weight is a more logical system for taxing the motorist. CC has little relevance, as the car could be a '00 Peugeot 206 1.8 diesel.

Supergurrier

Ahh i see the doo gooder brigade have arrives to once again defend our wonderful tax system.

wexie

Supergurrier wrote: »

Ahh i see the doo gooder brigade have arrives to once again defend our wonderful tax system.

hahaha...not defending it in the least, just pointing out we're not the only country in the world where motortax is expensive.

Compared to what we get in return though I'd prefer the roads in Holland.

And at least in Holland they seem to be screwing everyone over equally.

Ninap

i don't think weight is any more logical than cc, and even less logical than basing tax on emissions. Clearly usage should be the basis for taxation. But, I don't even mind them charging more tax for higher emissions cars - what I do mind is paying 10 times as much tax for producing twice the emissions of some other car - that is absurd and utterly iniquitous.

Supergurrier

Well most logical way to tax on emissions is on fuel comsumption not how cleanly you burn said fuel.

Tax on value/age of a car like in some US states would work well

wexie

Supergurrier wrote: »

Well most logical way to tax on emissions is on fuel comsumption not how cleanly you burn said fuel.

Tax on value/age of a car like in some US states would work well

I think (if I'd understood it properly) in Norway it's a combination of BHP, fuel efficiency, emissions and cost of car. Someone tried to explain it to me over a few pints but it sounded awful complicated and I was quite drunk and most distracted by a busty Norwegian blonde.

No doubt if we tried something similar here they'd make an awful mess of it and somehow make a top spec Fiat500 more expensive to tax than a base spec Jaguar XF

George Dalton

Ninap wrote: »

Clearly usage should be the basis for taxation. But, I don't even mind them charging more tax for higher emissions cars - what I do mind is paying 10 times as much tax for producing twice the emissions of some other car - that is absurd and utterly iniquitous.

Nail on the head there. Totally crazy situation.

wexie

Ninap wrote: »

i don't think weight is any more logical than cc, and even less logical than basing tax on emissions. Clearly usage should be the basis for taxation. But, I don't even mind them charging more tax for higher emissions cars - what I do mind is paying 10 times as much tax for producing twice the emissions of some other car - that is absurd and utterly iniquitous.

or twice as much for the same car, with the same emissions but a year older.

I'd be happy to accept that if I had the option to drive down to the NCT center and have my car tested for emissions and then change tax bracket.

I'd pay for the test 'nall

PurvesGrundy

Ninap wrote: »

i don't think weight is any more logical than cc, and even less logical than basing tax on emissions.

Both are terrible systems. I just meant that Holland's system is the lesser of two evils.

power pants

everyone just pays the same tax each year for any car they drive 200euros Ive decided

wexie

power pants wrote: »

everyone just pays the same tax each year for any car they drive 200euros Ive decided

I love you....when can I vote for you?

(although...hang on, what about my vintage car? is that going to cost 200 as well?)

visual

wexie wrote: »

I love you....when can I vote for you?

(although...hang on, what about my vintage car? is that going to cost 200 as well?)

Free road tax as its more hassle to collect than its worth.


I really think we should be looking to align ourselves with the UK motor tax system.

Darsad

I have a number of times taxed my wifes 1.6 car after letting one month pass after the tax disc had expired. The online motortax.ie would calculate the back tax at 1/12 or € 42. I just tried to do the same thing today and the FFers have gone back to charging at 1/10 for back tax so I had to pay an extra € 9 than the previous renewal.

I think the policy was always to charge arrears at 1/10 and the charge of 1/12 may have been an error on the web site they have now corrected.:mad:

djimi

I think the councils could charge 1/12 at their desecration and seemingly most did, however they are now charging arrears at 1/10 instead.

Just tax it before the end of the month after the disc has expired and there are no arrears (a few times I have gotten in there by the skin of my teeth!)

CiniO

Darsad wrote: »

I have a number of times taxed my wifes 1.6 car after letting one month pass after the tax disc had expired. The online motortax.ie would calculate the back tax at 1/12 or € 42. I just tried to do the same thing today and the FFers have gone back to charging at 1/10 for back tax so I had to pay an extra € 9 than the previous renewal.

I think the policy was always to charge arrears at 1/10 and the charge of 1/12 may have been an error on the web site they have now corrected.:mad:

Charging 1/10 instead of 1/12 was introduced in amendments to Finance (No.2) Act 1992 (the same ones that introduced SORD).

I remember though that before (few years back) arrears were charged at 1/10 and then it changed to 1/12.
Why was it changed - I don't know.

Darsad

CiniO wrote: »

Charging 1/10 instead of 1/12 was introduced in amendments to Finance (No.2) Act 1992 (the same ones that introduced SORD).

I remember though that before (few years back) arrears were charged at 1/10 and then it changed to 1/12.
Why was it changed - I don't know.

Well its back to 1 /10 now on my previous renewal before todays which I did on June 2nd,I paid € 187 for 3 months up to end of August which included
€ 42 arrears for the month of May. Today I had to pay €196 for 3 months which included € 51 arrears for the month of September.

keithclancy

AFAIK the Tax in fuel argument is that Ireland shares a border with the UK and people can simply skip the tax by crossing the border or buying in bulk.