Water Softening System

Diego Murphy

I'm about to move into a new house. I know the area suffers badly from hard water, as my sister has a house in the same estate.

Has anyone used the water softening systems that are available? If so, do they cost much to run annually and are the effective?

I've come across an offer from www.ewtechnologies.ie of €650 for their water softening system. Does anyone have this particular one? A lot of hospitals are their customers so that looks like a positive.

Any advice is appreciated.

Dicky Pride

Diego Murphy wrote: »

I'm about to move into a new house. I know the area suffers badly from hard water, as my sister has a house in the same estate.

Has anyone used the water softening systems that are available? If so, do they cost much to run annually and are the effective?

I've come across an offer from www.ewtechnologies.ie of €650 for their water softening system. Does anyone have this particular one? A lot of hospitals are their customers so that looks like a positive.

Any advice is appreciated.

I live in a hard water area and we got a leaflet in the door about a system for 350. I haven't had a good shower in years.

aah yes

Diego Murphy wrote: »

I'm about to move into a new house. I know the area suffers badly from hard water, as my sister has a house in the same estate.

Has anyone used the water softening systems that are available? If so, do they cost much to run annually and are the effective?

I've come across an offer from www.ewtechnologies.ie of €650 for their water softening system. Does anyone have this particular one? A lot of hospitals are their customers so that looks like a positive.

Any advice is appreciated.

The only systems really worth considering are Clack metered water softeners.

They are built to last a lifetime even if pushed to work at a commercial level, and don't need expensive annual servicing (like poor quality systems which can run in to thousands of euros extra over their working life).


Clack systems will only use 1 bag of salt for average water use of one person per year on the really hardest water of around 400 mg/L in the toughest hardest counties.

The cheaper and smaller water softener brands will eat up to 3-4-5 bags per person per year.


The poor quality brands are usually made in relatively unestablished eastern locations for as low as a third of the manufacturing costs of the Blue Chip brands, yet the asian made systems are asking up to 80% or 90% of the pricing of leading quality systems.


Track down your nearest Clack installer, do a bit of homework and get a few quotes and you will likely avoid a pig in a bag.

If your household is less than say 2/3 people and the water hardness is nearer 200 to 300 ppm, then a smaller system will suffice, anything from a Clack 8x17 size or 10x24 not a problem - 10 to 20 litre resin capacity, not to say the larger sizes are usually better in all cases as higher capacity systems will use less water, wash less often have lower wear and tear - a longer life, and lower salt use with higher levels of extended warranties up and beyond 30 years - and cost you an overall quarter to half the costs everything considered.

Bargaining down to 50 euros lower than the cheapest quote and cheapest brand you can find when it comes to water softeners will cost you dearly long term.

shane0007

Hi GWS, what do you think of the Aquabion filter?

Gadgie

Has anyone had a softener installed from Aqua Safe Systems, based in County Limerick? Their website (www.softwater.ie) is the first hit I get when I Google 'water softeners'. They have great reviews on their website, but I can't find any reviews on independent sites such as Boards.ie.

The twin tank softeners look great and seem more advantageous than the single tank timed systems available elsewhere. I got a quote from them for €1600-€1680 installed for the twin tank systems - much more expensive than single cylinder systems available elsewhere (I got a couple of quotes around the €650-€700 mark), but they claim there's no annual servicing or water wastage, so it might be better in the long run.

anheneti

Gadgie wrote: »

Has anyone had a softener installed from Aqua Safe Systems, based in County Limerick? Their website (www.softwater.ie) is the first hit I get when I Google 'water softeners'. They have great reviews on their website, but I can't find any reviews on independent sites such as Boards.ie.

The twin tank softeners look great and seem more advantageous than the single tank timed systems available elsewhere. I got a quote from them for €1600-€1680 installed for the twin tank systems - much more expensive than single cylinder systems available elsewhere (I got a couple of quotes around the €650-€700 mark), but they claim there's no annual servicing or water wastage, so it might be better in the long run.

I got a price off of them a few weeks ago for the twin tank system, but went with munsterwatersofteners.com in Tipperary they were over E200 cheaper for the same system. It was only installed on Monday and I can see a major improvement already

Gadgie

anheneti wrote: »

I got a price off of them a few weeks ago for the twin tank system, but went with munsterwatersofteners.com in Tipperary they were over E200 cheaper for the same system. It was only installed on Monday and I can see a major improvement already

Thanks for the info. Which system did you go for - the TwinTec or the Eco Elite? How much did you pay in total, if you don't mind me asking?

damienirel

http://www.galwaywater.ie/water-softeners

Also make sure you use axal-pro salt.

damienirel

By the way - being cheap to install doesn't necessarily mean cheap in the long run - main thing to consider is how much water you use and the running costs associated with softening that amount of water. The smaller cheaper units generally are less efficient - if you have space/money go for a larger unit. - Just some advice those units in the http://www.softwater.ie/ website look like toys compared to what I've got installed.

damienirel

Also note that - metered water softeners save up to 80% water and 70% salt use of smaller out dated timer based water softeners.

aah yes

shane0007 wrote: »

Hi GWS, what do you think of the Aquabion filter?

falls into two categories I would expect ...

1) chem1.com/CQ category : ion bunk / cluster bunk / wonky water bunk

http://www.chem1.com/CQ/gallery.html

2) http://www.chem1.com/acad/sci/pseudosci.html

very close to ...

http://www.galwaywater.ie/home/products/pipe-magnets



www.chem1.com absolute fantastic myth debunking site blogged by a retired chemistry professor in Canada, I have only the highest respect for this fella, wouldn't mind meeting him and shaking his hand

shane0007

gws wrote: »

falls into two categories I would expect ...

1) chem1.com/CQ category : ion bunk / cluster bunk / wonky water bunk

http://www.chem1.com/CQ/gallery.html

2) http://www.chem1.com/acad/sci/pseudosci.html

very close to ...

http://www.galwaywater.ie/home/products/pipe-magnets



www.chem1.com absolute fantastic myth debunking site blogged by a retired chemistry professor in Canada, I have only the highest respect for this fella, wouldn't mind meeting him and shaking his hand

I hear where you are coming from but it is a wee bit different than electro... gizmo ones. Perhaps I am looking for a different type of reply, more if they are actually crap, then why does it not work rather than pop it into a folder of junk, if that makes sense.

The reason why I ask is I have spoken to people with them installed & have heard good results. I rang the supplier of them & tbh he was very honest, saying they do not remove anything, but they re-arrange the structure so it does not adhere under temps of circa 93C. So kettles still get some limescale but a lot less. Showers, cylinder coils, etc. get none.

Saying that, if they are crap, then I would rather know now that they are crap.

Dtp1979

shane0007 wrote: »

I hear where you are coming from but it is a wee bit different than electro... gizmo ones. Perhaps I am looking for a different type of reply, more if they are actually crap, then why does it not work rather than pop it into a folder of junk, if that makes sense.

The reason why I ask is I have spoken to people with them installed & have heard good results. I rang the supplier of them & tbh he was very honest, saying they do not remove anything, but they re-arrange the structure so it does not adhere under temps of circa 93C. So kettles still get some limescale but a lot less. Showers, cylinder coils, etc. get none.

Saying that, if they are crap, then I would rather know now that they are crap.

I've heard similar results about CONBIMATE. Same principal as in they don't get rid of the lime, it just stops it sticking to things. I see them in all hardware shops

aah yes

shane0007 wrote: »

I hear where you are coming from but it is a wee bit different than electro... gizmo ones. Perhaps I am looking for a different type of reply, more if they are actually crap, then why does it not work rather than pop it into a folder of junk, if that makes sense.

The reason why I ask is I have spoken to people with them installed & have heard good results. I rang the supplier of them & tbh he was very honest, saying they do not remove anything, but they re-arrange the structure so it does not adhere under temps of circa 93C. So kettles still get some limescale but a lot less. Showers, cylinder coils, etc. get none.

Saying that, if they are crap, then I would rather know now that they are crap.

Sure they probably might be only €10 or €20, maybe worth a try nothing to lose.

Ideally, drain down yer water in hot press, undo a hot pipe feed, maybe cut a section and put on a joiner so you can get it out again.

Inspect inside the pipe beforehand checking encrusted scale build up, (take a photo) refit pipe section, then fit ion cluster scale gizmo on incoming supply.

Leave it a year, then take out the small pipe section in the hot press again.

Have a look inside the pipe and see if it is as clean as a whistle ?

Job done, ye knows fer sure then.

shane0007

They are €350!
You obviously are not familiar with them or if you are & sell them for €10, I'll take 10 dozen of them off you, thanks!

aah yes

WHHHAAAT ????

€3feckin50 ?

I'm in the wrong business ?

shane0007

That's what they are selling for in Heatmerchants, well €359 to be precise.

aah yes

noooooo

run for de hills

aah yes

i have a stray cat you can strap to a pipe for €10

they say the semi-reverberating tonal discord given out by a strapped up stray cat can cause an algorithmic change to occur in scale crystal seedlings that re-quantify over time to loose but harmless yokes at the other end, worth a try

aah yes

... no harm should come to a strapped up stray cat in the making of a reverberating tonal discord scale reduction device ...

Dtp1979

And what about the CONBIMATE?

aah yes

is it Combi-Mate ?

I'm going to google and fully check them out to see if they pass my strict multi point "waffle-ometer" test and I'll be back with a full indepth report of my findings.

Aaah I found them I'm on their home page now. I'll see if they employ any professional engineers / chemists / scientists or are backed by certified regulatory bodies, and use recognised facts and figures and see what comes out of the wash ...

Ooops, its not looking good, in their second FAQ on their FAQ tab they think water softeners (their competition) induce salty water into the soft water feed stream. Because it is an established scientific proven fact that water softeners don't in fact induce sodium chloride salt into the softened water they have failed at the first hurdle. Its not looking good for them ... I'll do further study.

(All international bodies from the MayoClinic.com site, WQA.org and all blue chip multinationals such as GE, Siemens and so on can definitively confirm that no chloride is part of the soft water feed stream in softened water as there is no ion exchange for chloride only trace level sodium, hence zero sodium chloride "salt".)

If they stated this and the figure for the finite trace level of sodium depending on hardness - usually 40% of ppm incoming hardness levels plus background source water sodium levels, together usually around 100 ppm - half the strict standard of 200 ppm for all international sodium tap water recommendations - W.H.O., EU Drinking Water Directives, USEPA, Irish EPA, HSE, etc, then they would curry favour with my trust a little, so far they are looking a bit dishonest ?

If they did answer correctly in their FAQ's for trace level sodium at 100 ppm mg/L their honest but salesy FAQ talk would sound something like ..

Can I taste it ?

No. Sodium is completely tasteless, a level of 100 ppm is extremely insignificant. It is only chloride from 2,000 / 3,000 ppm that can induce an entry level mild saline / salt taste. Softened water does not have chlorides, as chloride is not part of the ion exchange process.

Does it smell ?

No. Sodium is odourless.

Will it discolour clothes ?

No. Sodium has no effect on fabrics


Aaah, third FAQ, they are using polyphosphates as the method, so called "harmless food grade" right I think enough data right now to more or less eliminate them.

Polyphosphate dosing or Siliphosphate dosing using dissolvable crystals has been so often tried on commercial heating systems in an attempt to reduce scale. Nearly all heating systems are a loop system meaning the same fixed volume of water goes round in a continuous circle with no incoming water hardness multiplying the scaling effect, so unless the heating system is leaking rapidly and a high volume of hard water is entering the loop thus causing an accumulative scale effect then soft water filling in and leaking out would be more preferable or actually fixing the leak, but a "polyphos" unit in my mind is a waste of time.

There are more established heating system chemical treatment formulations and Europe's number one and two are Fernox (MB1) and Betz Dearborn (a company bought out by GE General Electric for $1.8 Billion) - okay that could be the other way round, - but both are the highest rated and longest established for iron sludge, corrosion and scale inhibition in closed loop heating systems.

Again scale is only an issue if the closed loop springs a leak, and the heating system filler valve kicks in and hundreds of litres or gallons of hard water enter a closed loop heating system causing scale build up, also that quantity of incoming cold water coming in and leaking out a bit more heated would not do the efficiency of the heating much good anyway so the leak has to be fixed whatever happens, whether Johnny Fernox, or Jimmy Betz were used.

As for using polyphosphates as a mineral sequestration method for domestic cold water and potable feeds nowadays it would take 5ppm to 10 ppm of polyphosphate to counteract 1 ppm of hardness, so for hard water at 400 ppm it would mean 2,000 to 4,000 ppm of polyphosphate needed say here on water around Galway County. Practically that ain't gonna happen.

In one year, limescale hardness at 400 ppm (mg/L) supplying a property between 100 m3 and 200 m3 (100,000 - 200,000 litres) would represent actual calcium carbonate limescale hardness in weight of 400 mg per litre multiplied by 100,000 to 200,000 = 40,000,000 mg or 40,000 grammes, or 40 Kilogrammes of scale. (So you would expect 200 KG to 400 KG of polyphosphates per year - not the half or full kilo or so of polyphosphate chucked into most polyphos gizmos.)

see ...

http://www.isws.illinois.edu/pubdoc/C/ISWSC-65.pdf

small snippet from the report ...

"Several comments are contrary to the implications of sales representatives who lack either adequate training or the capacity to resist the temptation to oversell. Such deficiencies have resulted in misapplications which have not benefited the reputation of polphosphates in water treatment."


Okay back to the Combimate website and dig a bit deeper ...

They say there's no annual maintenance in their PDF, but heck in the same bullet point they do say you need to top it up every year, and the current pricing for less than a kilo of polyphosphate / polyphos special secret mix?, is £23 sterling, oops only until you are at the shopping basket then another £4.60 VAT, also until at the check out another addition for the calculation for delivery ? This is adding up now.

Squirrelled away in the shopping basket just before check out is their Terms and Conditions, (okay only deliveries within UK from £3 to £10) so over £30 sterling minimum to fork out getting a refill in the UK say €35 in euros, I don't the the cost of annual refills if supplied by stores in Ireland, probably higher ?

Now the best metered water softeners, that do actually soften water can run on a lower cost than €35 a year for four people from €25 to €28 a year for 4 people on extremely hard water at 400 ppm at 4 bags of 25KG a bag (100 KG) lower still if water hardness is lower.

So 100 Kg of salt at €7 a bag = €28 So less than 1 Kg of polyphos that does not soften water = €35 or more to get hold of in the UK


So strapping a gizmo to a pipe and paying maybe €200 or so to go over and get it from the UK only to still have hard water with all the usual full hardness coming out of taps and showers and baths, causing soap curd scum, and scale nestling in fabrics of clothes, then paying another €35 or more a year to run sounds like a disaster to me.

Polyphos is commonly available, and buying sacks of 25Kg of the stuff is probably from €25 trade price or a fair €50 - €100 retail, so from €1 a Kg trade or €3-4 per Kg retail. Making a 10" filter housing to contain polyphos with 3/4 inlet and outlet can be done for €25 to €50 easily. But still not worth it, because every person I have spoke to who tried them say they are fairly pointless and don't seem to work.

egan007

gws wrote: »

noooooo

run for de hills

More like run to GWS's higher priced ones!

aah yes

No, for sure don't run to GWS, ... try out the Aquabion or Combimate first and see if you like them.

If they are a success then check out annual running costs and weigh up what ye want to do.


If they are not for you after all, then out of 32 counties nationwide, check out your nearest water specialist in your county.

Many water specialists operate within local single county areas, some operate further afield.

Let householders decide for themselves what established equipment brands and certifications are available and what established water treatment specialist are available locally or if not a wee bit further that seem honest, reliable, experienced, professional with referrals and accreditations.

aah yes

shane0007 wrote: »

That's what they are selling for in Heatmerchants, well €359 to be precise.

A full water softener system could be bought for under €300.

Aquabion seem extremely high priced, plus probably more expensive to run ?

(and do they actually work ?)

Corron

damienirel wrote: »

By the way - being cheap to install doesn't necessarily mean cheap in the long run - main thing to consider is how much water you use and the running costs associated with softening that amount of water. The smaller cheaper units generally are less efficient - if you have space/money go for a larger unit. - Just some advice those units in the http://www.softwater.ie/ website look like toys compared to what I've got installed.

Hi Damien, What brand do you have installed?

Highways

aah yes wrote: »

A full water softener system could be bought for under €300.

Aquabion seem extremely high priced, plus probably more expensive to run ?

(and do they actually work ?)

Hi,
I work for a distributor for AQUABION and I'm happy to let you know that they do work contrary to your... comments.
From what I've heard from water softener resellers, I'm not sure €300 will buy you much in terms of a conventional salt-based water softener. AQUABION is simple to plumb and doesn't cost anything to run - no servicing, salt, crystals, electricity or magnets just a sacrificial Zinc anode (a long established concept, not gobbledegook - couldn't find it on your Canadian guru's list ), years of R & D and some clever engineering. Lasts for about 7/8 years then put in new one.
Lots of trade testimonials, university research & accreditations (WRAS, TUV etc.) available for a product that's been around for over a decade if you cared to research the German manufacturers website.
Happy to inform you further if you want to PM me.

NIMAN

This thread is making for interesting reading.

Its either gobbledegook or its not. Personally I think its the former.

I think when I do take the plunge, it will be for a salt-based system.

Anyone have any experience of www.water2buy.ie (some good prices) or http://www.thewatertreatmentcentre.ie (very persuasive videos).

Highways

NIMAN wrote: »

This thread is making for interesting reading.

Its either gobbledegook or its not. Personally I think its the former.

I think when I do take the plunge, it will be for a salt-based system.

Anyone have any experience of www.water2buy.ie (some good prices) or http://www.thewatertreatmentcentre.ie (very persuasive videos).

Sacrificial Anodes are a long established concept in plumbing e.g. Sacrificial Zinc rods used in copper cylinders to protect them from scale. They are even used to protect boat hulls; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_anode
AQUABION has just refined an old idea for whole of house maintenance-free limescale treatment.
But then why do the research when you can read enlightened comments on Boards.:rolleyes:

shane0007

Highways wrote: »

Hi,
I work for a distributor for AQUABION and I'm happy to let you know that they do work contrary to your... comments.
From what I've heard from water softener resellers, I'm not sure €300 will buy you much in terms of a conventional salt-based water softener. AQUABION is simple to plumb and doesn't cost anything to run - no servicing, salt, crystals, electricity or magnets just a sacrificial Zinc anode (a long established concept, not gobbledegook - couldn't find it on your Canadian guru's list ), years of R & D and some clever engineering. Lasts for about 7/8 years then put in new one.
Lots of trade testimonials, university research & accreditations (WRAS, TUV etc.) available for a product that's been around for over a decade if you cared to research the German manufacturers website.
Happy to inform you further if you want to PM me.

Yes please PM more details.
I installed one recently for a customer after they researched it & are very happy with the results, but I just want to know more about them.

Pump101

I have a few questions on this gizmo

Does the aquabion leave clothes soft and fresh like a water softener would?

Does it eliminate white staining on bathroom ware and dishes etc

Does it stop skin irritation from hard water

Does it stop hair dye from leeching out

Does it remove existing scale build up?

Is it just essentially a descaler?

Highways

Pump101 wrote: »

I have a few questions on this gizmo

Does the aquabion leave clothes soft and fresh like a water softener would? YES

Does it eliminate white staining on bathroom ware and dishes etc AQUABION DOESN'T REMOVE LIMESCALE BUT CHANGES ITS COMPOSITION SO IT DOESNT STICK, I.E. TURNS AGRESSIVE LIMESCALE INTO NON-AGRESSIVE NON-STICK LIMESCALE (ARAGONITE) (Don't want to get too technical as some people on here
don't like big words and start quoting Canadian guru's! P.M me for science bit.)
Does it stop skin irritation from hard water YES

Does it stop hair dye from leaching out ??? NEVER PRESENTED AS AN ISSUE! WILL CHECK OUT.

Does it remove existing scale build up? NOT IN THE AGRESSIVE WAY SOFTENERS DO BUT BY PREVENTING NEW BUILD UP, IT ALLOWS WATERFLOW TO BREAK DOWN CALCIFIED SCALE E.G. HEATING COIL IN BOILER AFTER YEAR OF AQUABION WOULD HAVE THIN PROTECTIVE LAYER OF SCALE, OLD HARD SCALE WOULD SETTLE ON BOTTOM OF TANK, NO NEW BUILDUP.

Is it just essentially a descaler?

NO, IT'S AN ENVIRONMENTALLY FRIENDLY ALTERNATIVE TO WATER SOFTENERS.

aah yes

Water softeners are already environmentally friendly and have effectively the highest energy savings rating for any household appliance making them the greenest cost saving / energy savings addition to a household.

see ...

"Water softeners virtually eliminate energy-wasting, service life-shortening scale accumulation on gas and electric water heaters, according to a new study by Battelle Memorial Institute on “Benefits of removal of water hardness (calcium and magnesium ions) from a water supply.” Testing electric water heaters over an equivalent 15 months of service found 64 times more scaling on unsoftened water than softened water (14 grams/year softened versus 907 g/yr for unsoftened). For gas water heaters, the scale reduction was even more dramatic. Over more than two years’ equivalent service, heaters fed with unsoftened water accumulated 74 time the amount of scaling as those fed softened water (7 g/yr for softened versus 528 for unsoftened). Instantaneous gas heaters fed unsoftened water declined in thermal efficiency from 80 to 72 and, even when delimed, only recovered 62% of the lost efficiency. The thermal efficiency of all water heaters using softened water was unimpaired.

“For gas storage and instantaneous water heaters, the use of a water softener to eliminate or minimize the scale forming compounds in water will result in the efficiency of the water heater remaining constant over the life of the unit. In contrast, gas storage and instantaneous water heaters using unsoftened water had a noticeable decrease in efficiency over the testing period resulting in higher natural gas use.

The increase in total energy consumption (as a result of a reduction in heat transfer efficiency) is related to hardness: higher water hardness will lead to greater energy consumption without the use of water softener, and consequently greater energy costs.”

The report calculates the percentage of lifecycle energy cost savings using softeners ranging from 3.1% for “moderately hard” water with 5 grains hardness per gallon to 6.6% for “hard” water with 10 grains hardness, 14.5% for “very hard” water with 20 grains hardness and 24.2% for water with 30 grains hardness."


http://www.wqa.org/pdf/external_uploads/Battelle_Final_Report.pdf?CFID=302378&CFTOKEN=65082265



If some aul' yoke of a polyphos gizmo does nothing to remove hardness from water, then by definition that is an environmental waste of surplus and useless gadgets filling our world with no return on investment or energy savings.


Water softeners on the other hand are able to remove hardness 100% and perform extremely cost effectively.

Highways

aah yes wrote: »

Water softeners are already environmentally friendly and have effectively the highest energy savings rating for any household appliance making them the greenest cost saving / energy savings addition to a household.

see ...

"Water softeners virtually eliminate energy-wasting, service life-shortening scale accumulation on gas and electric water heaters, according to a new study by Battelle Memorial Institute on “Benefits of removal of water hardness (calcium and magnesium ions) from a water supply.” Testing electric water heaters over an equivalent 15 months of service found 64 times more scaling on unsoftened water than softened water (14 grams/year softened versus 907 g/yr for unsoftened). For gas water heaters, the scale reduction was even more dramatic. Over more than two years’ equivalent service, heaters fed with unsoftened water accumulated 74 time the amount of scaling as those fed softened water (7 g/yr for softened versus 528 for unsoftened). Instantaneous gas heaters fed unsoftened water declined in thermal efficiency from 80 to 72 and, even when delimed, only recovered 62% of the lost efficiency. The thermal efficiency of all water heaters using softened water was unimpaired.

“For gas storage and instantaneous water heaters, the use of a water softener to eliminate or minimize the scale forming compounds in water will result in the efficiency of the water heater remaining constant over the life of the unit. In contrast, gas storage and instantaneous water heaters using unsoftened water had a noticeable decrease in efficiency over the testing period resulting in higher natural gas use.

The increase in total energy consumption (as a result of a reduction in heat transfer efficiency) is related to hardness: higher water hardness will lead to greater energy consumption without the use of water softener, and consequently greater energy costs.”

The report calculates the percentage of lifecycle energy cost savings using softeners ranging from 3.1% for “moderately hard” water with 5 grains hardness per gallon to 6.6% for “hard” water with 10 grains hardness, 14.5% for “very hard” water with 20 grains hardness and 24.2% for water with 30 grains hardness."


http://www.wqa.org/pdf/external_uploads/Battelle_Final_Report.pdf?CFID=302378&CFTOKEN=65082265



If some aul' yoke of a polyphos gizmo does nothing to remove hardness from water, then by definition that is an environmental waste of surplus and useless gadgets filling our world with no return on investment or energy savings.


Water softeners on the other hand are able to remove hardness 100% and perform extremely cost effectively.

That's great! AQUABION too has numerous independent studies and thousands of satisfied customers endorsing it. Happy to PM anyone who wants to know more about this great sacrificial Zinc anode 'gizmo'

majeece

Be prepared for lots of refills of salt..I have the Eco Elite and it eats salt..

Energy1

majeece wrote: »

Be prepared for lots of refills of salt..I have the Eco Elite and it eats salt..

Where did you get your softner?

I was thinking of gettin the twin tec do you or anyone know muhc about it. Thanks