Atheists in Muslim countries.

Tom M · 01-09-2013 6:53am #1

I've never met or heard of someone who is an atheist from a country where the religion is predominantly Muslim. Do you think many exist or are they afraid to "come out" as it were?

Cavehill Red · 01-09-2013 6:59am

Apostasy is against the law in some such countries. It's literally illegal not to remain a Muslim if you were born one. This is a tenet of sharia as well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam#Applying_law_in_the_Muslim_world

Festy · 01-09-2013 7:36am

Muslims don't take kindly to atheists

Micky Dolenz · 01-09-2013 8:18am

. When is the last time you have been to a mostly Islamic country or spoken to people from such places?

Tom M · 01-09-2013 8:42am

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

. When is the last time you have been to a mostly Islamic country or spoken to people from such places?

I have never in all my life been to a Muslim country and can't
Remember ever in my entire life speaking to an atheist from a Muslim
Country.

Wibbs · 01-09-2013 8:49am

I've known quite the number of a la* carte Muslims in my time. It was a background noise in their culture and a part of their social interaction, but they weren't particularly religious. No "I'm an atheist" types, but agnostics certainly. And these were far from their original home, so more likely to be homesick for their culture. Of course some went the other way and became more religious than back home, again I suspect because of the homesick factor.

*no pun.

padd b1975 · 01-09-2013 9:16am

Tom M wrote: »

I've never met or heard of someone who is an atheist from a country where the religion is predominantly Muslim. Do you think many exist or are they afraid to "come out" as it were?

Best bet would be to log on to their versions of After Hours, that's where all the "best" Atheists hang out:cool:

Micky Dolenz · 01-09-2013 9:22am

Tom M wrote: »

I have never in all my life been to a Muslim country and can't
Remember ever in my entire life speaking to an atheist from a Muslim
Country.

Maybe not having been exposed to a culture is part of the reason you haven't met any.

Frank Lee Midere · 01-09-2013 9:27am

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Maybe not having been exposed to a culture is part of the reason you haven't met any.

Ridiculous. We can know about countries without visiting them. If there are laws against atheism then we can conclude atheists keep a low profile.

And I have been to Muslim countries. Not that that matters to the debate.

Frank Lee Midere · 01-09-2013 9:28am

I've met Iranian atheists here but that wasn't the question.

hfallada · 01-09-2013 9:28am

Well it's like catholism here in the 1950s. Some are more Muslim than others. Some are "Muslim" but clearly aren't practising it. If you look at Instagram, you will see people in places like Jordan and Lebanon having having massive parties, everyone wasted and men and women socialising.

There would have to be atheism, in the sense a lot of Europeans lost their religion after ww2 when they questioned how could god allow tens of millions to die. Like people in Afghanistan, Lebanon, Libya etc. Cant be to happy with god, when dozens of their families have been wracked.

Micky Dolenz · 01-09-2013 9:32am

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Ridiculous. We can know about countries without visiting them. If there are laws against atheism then we can conclude atheists keep a low profile.

And I have been to Muslim countries. Not that that matters.

The question is ridiculous and anyone who knows a cross section of people from Muslim countries knows that atheists exist, as they do in every culture from every religious back ground.

I've never met a catholic Native American. But then again I've never met a native America.

Frank Lee Midere · 01-09-2013 9:42am

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

The question is ridiculous and anyone who knows a cross section of people from Muslim countries knows that atheists exist, as they do in every culture from every religious back ground.

I've never met a catholic Native American. But then again I've never met a native America.

He's asking if many exist or if they are afraid to come out. Totally legit. He doesn't have to meet a huge sample to ask this question, nor in fact meet any. Consider the question itself a quest for knowledge. The answer is there are fewer known atheists in Islamic countries because the penalties are severe.

75% of Egyptians support death for apostasy.

https://twitter.com/richarddawkins/status/372996045623414785

Micky Dolenz · 01-09-2013 9:47am

The answer to the question is, of course there is.

Frank Lee Midere · 01-09-2013 9:50am

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

The answer to the question is, of course there is.

Really? So there are 75% of the population in Egypt who support death for atheists ( or other apostates) and the rest are atheists. Because he asked were there "many" not "few".

Micky Dolenz · 01-09-2013 9:55am

There are estimated to be over 1.5 billion Muslims. You can bet more than a few don't practice or have lapsed. Same as people born into other religions that stopped believing or never really believed in the first place.

Grumpypants · 01-09-2013 9:56am

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

I've met Iranian atheists here but that wasn't the question.

That pretty much is the question that was asked.

It is quite hard to get to know someones religious preferences with knowing the person. There are plenty of atheists in Muslim countries it's just like most atheists they don't make a song and dance about it.

crockholm · 01-09-2013 9:59am

I got a haircut once from an athiest turk,who was brought up as a muslim.It was in Ireland though.

Surely I get a prize for the least helpful/pertinent post on the thread?

getzls · 01-09-2013 10:20am

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

There are estimated to be over 1.5 billion Muslims. You can bet more than a few don't practice or have lapsed. Same as people born into other religions that stopped believing or never really believed in the first place.

And you can bet those lapsed ones don't come out and say,
i'm not a Muslim any longer and i reject Islam.

Nasty religion in many ways.

FouxDaFaFa · 01-09-2013 10:44am

Reddit's "ex muslim" subreddit is worth a look.

Sir Humphrey Appleby · 01-09-2013 10:47am

getzls wrote: »

And you can bet those lapsed ones don't come out and say,
i'm not a Muslim any longer and i reject Islam.

Nasty religion in many ways.

No nastier than many others.

loobylou · 01-09-2013 10:57am

Atheism still carries the death penalty in a number of Muslim countries.
Also, apostates are not necessarily atheists nor are atheists always apostates.

Tom M · 01-09-2013 11:08am

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Maybe not having been exposed to a culture is part of the reason you haven't met any.

Yea maybe, hence the thread to learn more.

UCDVet · 01-09-2013 11:21am

I know it's childish (and incorrect from a religious standpoint), but I like to pretend that people are atheist if they fail to, at least attempt, to follow their self-proclaimed religious tenants.

By that definition there are very few religious people anywhere....but the ones I've met are real class.

losthorizon · 01-09-2013 11:21am

Tom M wrote: »

I've never met or heard of someone who is an atheist from a country where the religion is predominantly Muslim. Do you think many exist or are they afraid to "come out" as it were?

There are loads - Just look up secularism and muslim nations. Even in non secularist nations like Morocco its OK. No one follows you around.

Been to a few muslim nations and every one of them were non secularist especially Bosnia.

conorhal · 01-09-2013 11:30am

Wibbs wrote: »

I've known quite the number of a la* carte Muslims in my time. It was a background noise in their culture and a part of their social interaction, but they weren't particularly religious. No "I'm an atheist" types, but agnostics certainly. And these were far from their original home, so more likely to be homesick for their culture. Of course some went the other way and became more religious than back home, again I suspect because of the homesick factor.

*no pun.

When my folks lived in Saudi Arabia a good Saudi friend of theirs that we would often visit showed them a room in his country villa that was wall to wall and floor to ceiling with cases of whiskey.
He used to joke that he had dedicated the first 40yrs of his life to Allah and now he intended to dedicate the remaining 40 to Johnny Walker. He was quite a character, but I can only imagine the trouble he would have been in if anybody had ever seen that room.
They also knew a guy that had converted to christianity, he had lived all his life with a debilitating illness and in desperation had tried every quack and mumbo jumbo in the book, he converted after a visit to a catholic shrine after which he claimed that his illness just disapeared. That said, the family where VERY quite about the subject. Again, he could have been in real trouble for his actions.
Athiests do exist in the Middle East, but like Jews in Nazi germany, it doesn't pay to shout about it.

Frank Lee Midere · 01-09-2013 11:54am

Once again - the OP asked are there many atheists in Muslim countries. We would probably need a more stringent definition of "many" but I don't think any definition would lead to the question being correctly answered as "yes". At least not self declared atheists. What with it being illegal and punishable by death. Etc.

Sir Humphrey Appleby · 01-09-2013 12:00pm

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Once again - the OP asked are there many atheists in Muslim countries. We would probably need a more stringent definition of "many" but I don't think any definition would lead to the question being correctly answered as "yes". At least not self declared atheists. What with it being illegal and punishable by death. Etc.

it is neither illegal nor punishable by death in most Muslim countries.

HalloweenJack · 01-09-2013 12:09pm

I had an ex from an Egyptian family and they were all very much in the vain of Irish Catholics of our generation. In name they were Muslims but in their actions, not so much. This continued anytime they went home.

I have a friend living in Turkey (a majority Muslim country, though not as extreme as others). She's an atheist and very anti-religion. She has a boyfriend over there so, knowing her, I assume he is of similar beliefs.

biko · 01-09-2013 12:20pm

Not all Muslims are Koran reading, flag burning, women beating jihadists.
Many many are like you and me, born into religion but not particularly interested, maybe attending services because the parents make them.
They may have to appear to love Islam, as they can't denounce it, but inside I'm certain many many think it's pretty crap.

Unfortunately the strict ones are so aggressive and dangerous it's not really feasible to publicly denounce Allah.
Even westerners that do so can be, and have been, killed.

camel jockey · 01-09-2013 12:23pm

Festy wrote: »

Muslims don't take kindly to atheists

That's an understatement. Not sure they take kindly to anyone, including themselves. Certainly not women, anyway.

Sir Humphrey Appleby · 01-09-2013 12:26pm

camel jockey wrote: »

That's an understatement. Not sure they take kindly to anyone, including themselves. Certainly not women, anyway.

That's bollox!

camel jockey · 01-09-2013 12:29pm

Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »

That's bollox!

Indeed - they get along so well, the Sunni's and the ****e's etc. Not a bother on them.

Sir Humphrey Appleby · 01-09-2013 12:45pm

camel jockey wrote: »

Indeed - they get along so well, the Sunni's and the ****e's etc. Not a bother on them.

You mean like Catholics and Protestants in Belfast?
As I said, Bollox!

camel jockey · 01-09-2013 1:07pm

Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »

You mean like Catholics and Protestants in Belfast?
As I said, Bollox!

Yeah, exactly like that. Believe what you like. The rest of us don't look at islam and muslims with rose tinted glasses.

Trained Monkey · 01-09-2013 1:26pm

They weren't overly fond of Salman Rushdie rejecting Islam...

Sir Humphrey Appleby · 01-09-2013 1:49pm

Trained Monkey wrote: »

They weren't overly fond of Salman Rushdie rejecting Islam...

Did he reject Islam?

Sir Humphrey Appleby · 01-09-2013 1:50pm

camel jockey wrote: »

Yeah, exactly like that. Believe what you like. The rest of us don't look at islam and muslims with rose tinted glasses.

And some of us have more open, enlightened, and educated minds than others!:P

Trained Monkey · 01-09-2013 2:29pm

Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »

Did he reject Islam?

He was born in India to a Muslim family and is now an Atheist. Number of fatwas have been issued against him for his books and his religious beliefs.

Sir Humphrey Appleby · 01-09-2013 2:52pm

Trained Monkey wrote: »

He was born in India to a Muslim family and is now an Atheist. Number of fatwas have been issued against him for his books and his religious beliefs.

He has been issued with a Fatwa by the Ayatollah Khomeni over one particular book, nothing to do with his atheism, which is the subject of this thread.

loobylou · 01-09-2013 3:24pm

Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »

it is neither illegal nor punishable by death in most Muslim countries.

Well bully for them. There are 7 Muslim countries where atheism is punishable by death, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Afghanistan, Sudan, Mauritius and Maldives. These countries have a combined population of over 300 million.
It is not "enlightened" to ignore these aspects of the so called religion of peace.

TheChizler · 01-09-2013 3:33pm

loobylou wrote: »

Well bully for them. There are 7 Muslim countries where atheism is punishable by death, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Afghanistan, Sudan, Mauritius and Maldives. These countries have a combined population of over 300 million.
It is not "enlightened" to ignore these aspects of the so called religion of peace.

Do you mean apostasy?

loobylou · 01-09-2013 3:40pm

TheChizler wrote: »

Do you mean apostasy?

In those countries purely for atheism. Apostasy is also punishable by death under Sharia law.

TheChizler · 01-09-2013 3:44pm

loobylou wrote: »

In those countries purely for atheism. Apostasy is also punishable by death under Sharia law.

Blasphemy then? I've never heard of the crime being purely atheism.

loobylou · 01-09-2013 3:46pm

TheChizler wrote: »

Blasphemy then? I've never heard of the crime being purely atheism.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2012/12/10/the-seven-countries-where-the-state-can-execute-you-for-being-atheist/

Sir Humphrey Appleby · 01-09-2013 3:48pm

loobylou wrote: »

Well bully for them. There are 7 Muslim countries where atheism is punishable by death, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Afghanistan, Sudan, Mauritius and Maldives. These countries have a combined population of over 300 million.
It is not "enlightened" to ignore these aspects of the so called religion of peace.

No, but it is bigoted to say that those countries laws are representative of all Muslims, I notice you didn't mention Turkey, Morocco, Tunisia, Bosnia all predominantly Muslim countries who don't practise such abhorrent practices.

My name is URL · 01-09-2013 3:57pm

Some predominantly Muslim countries are actually quite secular and welcoming of people of other or no faiths. Syria, believe it or not; is one of such... or at least was until recently. Palestine is also surprisingly secular, as is Lebanon, Turkey and Uzbekistan. I know a few guys from Lebanon who are agnostic.

TheChizler · 01-09-2013 3:59pm

loobylou wrote: »

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2012/12/10/the-seven-countries-where-the-state-can-execute-you-for-being-atheist/

That didn't say anywhere that it was specifically atheism that was illegal, it's expressing it and by doing so blaspheming and inciting to hatred that is the criminal actions. There's definitely a lot of official discrimination, but no death purely for being atheist.

loobylou · 01-09-2013 4:00pm

Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »

No, but it is bigoted to say that those countries laws are representative of all Muslims, I notice you didn't mention Turkey, Morocco, Tunisia, Bosnia all predominantly Muslim countries who don't practise such abhorrent practices.

Don't remember saying they were representative of all Muslim countries.
Maybe you could point out to me where I did.
There are many parts of Islam that I like and admire but you are deluded if you believe it is a tolerant ideology.

Sir Humphrey Appleby · 01-09-2013 4:42pm

loobylou wrote: »

Don't remember saying they were representative of all Muslim countries.
Maybe you could point out to me where I did.
There are many parts of Islam that I like and admire but you are deluded if you believe it is a tolerant ideology.

Oh dear chap, I never said it was tolerant.
Then again while it can be intolerant so the most if not all major religions.

Boombastic · 01-09-2013 4:46pm

A great bunch of lads. Tolerance is a cornerstone of the religion

Atheists in Muslim countries.

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