Career options for older GEM doctor?

polydactyl

pc11 wrote: »

Actually, sports medicine would definitely be on my list of possible paths. That's interesting that many of them might be GPs first.

Would it be a condition to have a room in a private clinic like these that they must have finished SpR training then? Is that a condition of the clinic or of the IMO/RCPI/etc? Is it impossible for a not quite finished SpR to set up on his own in some fashion?

Do you think if I found some doctors working in an area I was interested in that I could contact them and ask to do some kind of shadowing or experience with them during med school or during holidays?

Sorry if these are slightly silly questions, I haven't seen questions like these elsewhere. I'm grateful for your explanations.

I am afraid there is NO shortcut. As I have tried to explai. You have to complete some training programme either SpR or GP now to set up on your own. You need your certificate of completion and if you dont have it No insurance company would insure you as you just will not be trained enough until you finish your scheme or even more after that. No patient would attend you either if you we're only half trained. I am afraid it's 8-10-12 years no matter what after starting college. That's the only reality no matter what route you choose.

Shadowing would be no problem at all and I am sure could be easily arranged.

pc11

polydactyl wrote: »

I am afraid there is NO shortcut. As I have tried to explai. You have to complete some training programme either SpR or GP now to set up on your own. You need your certificate of completion and if you dont have it No insurance company would insure you as you just will not be trained enough until you finish your scheme or even more after that. No patient would attend you either if you we're only half trained. I am afraid it's 8-10-12 years no matter what after starting college. That's the only reality no matter what route you choose.

Shadowing would be no problem at all and I am sure could be easily arranged.

Great, thanks again. I wasn't really thinking of it as a shortcut, just trying to get my head around the system.

pc11

TheKingslayer wrote: »

The game is rigged, and unfortunately people are playing blindfolded with their hands tied behind their back.

There is no future in hopsital medicine in Ireland.

The majority of people in medicine have spent half their lives trying to get in, and then the second half trying to get out when they realise how ****ed the whole thing is. Over 50% of any graduating class will jump onto a GP training scheme just to escape the hell of the hospital, and this number will steadily rise as people who try and go the hospital route realise how futile it is.

The HSE have invented the most ingenious pyramid scheme in the history of the western world. Offer medicine to people desperate enough to get themselves into massive debts to do it (debts you will NEVER be able to re-pay if you stay in Ireland I might add). Then get people who are that little bit older - people entering their early 30s, with roots in Ireland, less inclined to emigrate due to family/girlfriend/kids/aging parents etc. Most of these people don't realise what they have let themselves in for until it is too late and they are in too much debt to turn back.

These people have been sold into servitude.

Your options as a person in his 50s are between none and limited.
GP is being decimated - the days of making 6 figures doing this are long gone. Watch and see the GP system become run by business-men who employ doctors for 40k a year max. These guys will no sfa about medicine and will constantly be on your case to spend less time in consults etc. The manager of the local LIDL will probably make more than you.

The loan - you will never be able to repay this.

The lucky few whose parents paid for their degree, or those who have a good degree to go back to (eg pharmacists) are the lucky ones - they have an escape.


You will be working 100 hours a week and getting paid for fifty. If you complain to your consultant about him not signing off on your hours, he will write you a bad reference, ring his pals to ensure you never get a job, or report you to the medical council.

Your options are the UK, Aus, or the US.

You have no option here. I implore anyone starting medicine (especially anyone in their late twenties and above) to turn back immediately.

This is not ER, or Grey's Anatomy. There is no ideals in this, it is just a job. There is no respect for this profession in this country.

You know what, I don't really disagree with you, and I'll consider going abroad if I have to.

But, I don't think this is ER or Grey's Anatomy, I'm not that stupid.

dissed doc

pc11 wrote: »

Actually, sports medicine would definitely be on my list of possible paths. That's interesting that many of them might be GPs first.

Would it be a condition to have a room in a private clinic like these that they must have finished SpR training then? Is that a condition of the clinic or of the IMO/RCPI/etc? Is it impossible for a not quite finished SpR to set up on his own in some fashion?

If you are qualified you can do what you like (like the people two years out of training doing botox that gets into the papers every now and then). You can see "Consulting Physician" business cards from people who have dropped out of training schemes in the UK sometimes. It happens. Only 10% of medical students actually are working as specialists long term (10 years out of college). Most people become GPs or stay as mid-level doctors (staff grade type level).

But, you will not be able to work as a specialist. The best option IMHO is skip the GP scheme, do SHO rotations for 2-3 years and then do GP locums for a few years before opening your own private only practice. That is actually not as uncommon as you think and much more financially viable than 10+ years in specialist training.

RobFowl

dissed doc wrote: »

The best option IMHO is skip the GP scheme, do SHO rotations for 2-3 years and then do GP locums for a few years before opening your own private only practice. That is actually not as uncommon as you think and much more financially viable than 10+ years in specialist training.

Not an option any more as insurers will no longer cover new entrants for GP work unless they are vocationally trained.

polydactyl

pc11 wrote: »

Great, thanks again. I wasn't really thinking of it as a shortcut, just trying to get my head around the system.

No worries. It is indeed complicated and not something you need to worry about yet

Vorsprung

Sports medicine got itself on the Medical Council list of specialities so those in the likes of the SSC are indeed consultants in sports/exercise medicine.

polydactyl

pc11 wrote: »

Great, thanks again. I wasn't really thinking of it as a shortcut, just trying to get my head around the system.

No worries. It is indeed complicated and not something you need to worry about yet

polydactyl

Vorsprung wrote: »

Sports medicine got itself on the Medical Council list of specialities so those in the likes of the SSC are indeed consultants in sports/exercise medicine.

Some of them are actually GPs however with additional post grad training and did not stay in the hospital system entirely

RobFowl

polydactyl wrote: »

Some of them are actually GPs however with additional post grad training and did not stay in the hospital system entirely

Quite correct relatively few practicing sports docs on the specialist register but I would expect this to change over the years as its a rapidly evolving speciality.

Vorsprung

Just had another quick look there, 5 SEPs on the SSC books (according to their website), and no-one with a GP qualification in their profile, nor history suggestive of having done GP training.

Are they doing GP on the side, shameful of their GP past or is it a bigger speciality than you're letting on?

RobFowl

Vorsprung wrote: »

Just had another quick look there, 5 SEPs on the SSC books (according to their website), and no-one with a GP qualification in their profile, nor history suggestive of having done GP training.

Are they doing GP on the side, shameful of their GP past or is it a bigger speciality than you're letting on?

2 at least are fully qualified GP's

Ihaveanopinion

Sports & Exercise Medicine is a slightly different speciality, in that there is not a formal training programme as yet. Those guys in Santry have done a combination of GP, Rheumatology, Orthopaedics and General Medicine. All have post graduate qualifications in one of the above. Most (if not all) have done fellowship training abroad in countries where they do have SEM as a speciality. To get on the specialist register for SEM, there was a grandfather type of thing, but now there is an exam, along with a bunch of criteria you have to meet.

There may be a programme in the future

polydactyl

Vorsprung wrote: »

Just had another quick look there, 5 SEPs on the SSC books (according to their website), and no-one with a GP qualification in their profile, nor history suggestive of having done GP training.

Are they doing GP on the side, shameful of their GP past or is it a bigger speciality than you're letting on?

You didn't look hard enough

Dr Franklyn Miller Member of the Royal College of General Practitioners, 2005

HeadPig

Since we're on the subject of GPs and I don't think this warrants a new thread I have a question: Can an Irish graduate do GP training in England and then return and practice as a GP here?

Vorsprung

Absolutely, a fair few do it that way.

Agnieszka_88

About training in England: is is better to go there straight after graduation and apply for a F1 scheme or to finish the intern year in Ireland and leave after?

RobFowl

Agnieszka_88 wrote: »

About training in England: is is better to go there straight after graduation and apply for a F1 scheme or to finish the intern year in Ireland and leave after?

Probably slightly easier to do it after graduation. The UK have Foundations years 1 and 2 as opposed to a 1 year internship here, suspect your'd be at a disadvantage competing against those with that if you did your intern year here.

HeadPig

RobFowl wrote: »

Probably slightly easier to do it after graduation. The UK have Foundations years 1 and 2 as opposed to a 1 year internship here, suspect your'd be at a disadvantage competing against those with that if you did your intern year here.

After internship, is that equivalent to finishing FY 1 & 2, or would one have to do FY 2 before applying to English GP schemes?

Agnieszka_88

HeadPig wrote: »

After internship, is that equivalent to finishing FY 1 & 2, or would one have to do FY 2 before applying to English GP schemes?

I've started digging after my last post and here is what I've found:
http://www.medicalcareers.nhs.uk/postgraduate_doctors/international_medical_graduate/article_for_british_or_eu_imgs.aspx

So basically, if someone did their intern year in Ireland, they could register with the GMC and wouldn't be eligible to apply for the "normal" Foundation Programme anymore. They'd need to apply for locum posts at foundation lever (and from what I've read on forums they're not easy to land) to get that FY2 experience. It all seems ridiculously complicated and kind of like a waste of time, because it seems like it can take two years to get enough "NHS experience" to be eligible for ST, so there is just no point in bothering with the Irish internship if you're certain about doing your ST in England.

HeadPig

Agnieszka_88 wrote: »

I've started digging after my last post and here is what I've found:
http://www.medicalcareers.nhs.uk/postgraduate_doctors/international_medical_graduate/article_for_british_or_eu_imgs.aspx

So basically, if someone did their intern year in Ireland, they could register with the GMC and wouldn't be eligible to apply for the "normal" Foundation Programme anymore. They'd need to apply for locum posts at foundation lever (and from what I've read on forums they're not easy to land) to get that FY2 experience. It all seems ridiculously complicated and kind of like a waste of time, because it seems like it can take two years to get enough "NHS experience" to be eligible for ST, so there is just no point in bothering with the Irish internship if you're certain about doing your ST in England.

Thanks for the link - very informative! Bit of a disaster though, isn't it? Well for those who do an intern year in Ireland anyway.

Anyone know what annual leave is like in the NHS?

Agnieszka_88

HeadPig wrote: »

Thanks for the link - very informative! Bit of a disaster though, isn't it? Well for those who do an intern year in Ireland anyway.

Anyone know what annual leave is like in the NHS?

Definitely a small disaster, nothing unsolvable but sure to give anyone a headache.

http://bma.org.uk/practical-support-at-work/contracts/juniors-contracts
Scroll to the bottom of the page and open the "Terms and conditions of service for junior doctors" file to check the terms of employment for hospital doctors. I don't have the time to search right now, but I'm pretty sure it's somewhere around 5-6 weeks. The NHS pay scales are also somewhere on the BMA website.

RobFowl

HeadPig wrote: »

Anyone know what annual leave is like in the NHS?

5 weeks for Foundation and SHO level posts. 6 weeks for more senior posts
Also 30 days over 3 years study leave.

HeadPig

RobFowl wrote: »

5 weeks for Foundation and SHO level posts. 6 weeks for more senior posts
Also 30 days over 3 years study leave.

Compares favourably to the Irish system which seems to offer 3 weeks?

Can you elaborate on study leave?

As an unrelated addendum, the spellchecker here underlines my spelling of favourably, shouldn't an Irish website like boards.ie be using British English and not American English?

polydactyl

You get 6 weeks per year here too. Not three

HeadPig

polydactyl wrote: »

You get 6 weeks per year here too. Not three

Thought it was 3 for some reason.

polydactyl

No trust me its 6.... After 8 years as an NCHD just finished its 6.

HeadPig

polydactyl wrote: »

No trust me its 6.... After 8 years as an NCHD just finished its 6.

Don't worry I believe you! 6 weeks ain't bad

polydactyl

No it's fine. Three weeks per 6m rotation and 18 days study leave if you are elig