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Woman forced to drop rape charges to stay in ireland

Comments

  • #2
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,554 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    It's a horrific story.

    I really don't want to sound bad here, but just because her husband was abusing her, it doesn't necessarily mean that she should automatically get social welfare (as the article said) and permanent residency in Ireland after her immigration card had expired.

    On the rape charges themselves, I always thought the once the DPP had taken the case, a victim couldn't just withdraw the charges? If that's the case, it really should be changed.

    Edit: Sorry, I just see that the DPP hadn't taken the case. Still, certain crimes should probably be prosecuted regardless of the whether the victim wants it or not.


  • #3
    clairefontaine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭clairefontaine


    NiallSparky wrote: »
    It's a horrific story.

    I really don't want to sound bad here, but just because her husband was abusing her, it doesn't necessarily mean that she should automatically get social welfare (as the article said) and permanent residency in Ireland after her immigration card had expired.

    On the rape charges themselves, I always thought the once the DPP had taken the case, a victim couldn't just withdraw the charges? If that's the case, it really should be changed.

    Edit: Sorry, I just see that the DPP hadn't taken the case. Still, certain crimes should probably be prosecuted regardless of the whether the victim wants it or not.

    What's the alternative? Leave Ireland and leave her kids in either foster care should he face prison or the custody of her violent husband? she can't take the kids with her or she faces an abduction charge.


  • #4
    OkayWhatever
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 541 ✭✭✭OkayWhatever


    NiallSparky wrote: »
    It's a horrific story.

    I really don't want to sound bad here, but just because her husband was abusing her, it doesn't necessarily mean that she should automatically get social welfare (as the article said) and permanent residency in Ireland after her immigration card had expired.

    On the rape charges themselves, I always thought the once the DPP had taken the case, a victim couldn't just withdraw the charges? If that's the case, it really should be changed.

    Edit: Sorry, I just see that the DPP hadn't taken the case. Still, certain crimes should probably be prosecuted regardless of the whether the victim wants it or not.

    So you would rather her leave the country and leave her children with a man who abused her, as it said in the article?

    What If she went to America with her two children , got accused of kidnapping her own children because she doesn't have sole custody, and lose her children who would have to come back to Ireland and the man who abused her have full custody. Surely Ireland wouldn't satisfy her looking for full custody when she is in Ireland illegaly.


  • #5
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,554 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    clairefontaine wrote: »
    What's the alternative? Leave Ireland and leave her kids in either foster care should he face prison or the custody of her violent husband? she can't take the kids with her or she faces an abduction charge.

    That's obviously the major obstacle alright. I don't know much about family law, but surely she'd be able to apply for (and likely get) custody of the children, even if she wasn't an Irish resident?

    Even without that, I'd be shocked if there weren't avenues open to expedite residency permits for parents of Irish citizens?


  • #6
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,554 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    Whatever about the legalities in this case, I've done some research on the matter, and it seems that it won't be able to arise in the future.

    http://inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/WP11000037
    The European Court of Justice Judgment in the Zambrano case, delivered on 8th March, 2011, ruled that Member States are precluded from refusing a third country national upon whom his minor children, who are European Union citizens, are dependent, a right of residence in the Member State of residence and nationality of those children, and from refusing to grant a work permit to that third country national, in so far as such decisions deprive those children of the genuine enjoyment of the substance of the rights attaching to the status of European Union citizen. In Ireland, this ruling refers to the non EEA national parents of Irish born citizen minor children.

    Arising from this Judgment, the Department’s Repatriation Division will be examining all cases where a link to the Zambrano Judgment has been identified to see if such cases meet the Zambrano criteria. Where the Zambrano criteria is met, all other things being equal, permission to remain in the State will be granted, for a specified period, of a nature as will enable such parents to work in the State without an Employment Permit or to set up in any legitimate business or profession without seeking the permission of the Minister.


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  • #7
    clairefontaine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭clairefontaine


    NiallSparky wrote: »
    That's obviously the major obstacle alright. I don't know much about family law, but surely she'd be able to apply for (and likely get) custody of the children, even if she wasn't an Irish resident?

    Even without that, I'd be shocked if there weren't avenues open to expedite residency permits for parents of Irish citizens?

    I don't know how an immigrant with illegal status petitions a court without risking deportation without her kids.

    Can she? Good question. I'd love to know.


  • #8
    OkayWhatever
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 541 ✭✭✭OkayWhatever


    NiallSparky wrote: »
    That's obviously the major obstacle alright. I don't know much about family law, but surely she'd be able to apply for (and likely get) custody of the children, even if she wasn't an Irish resident?

    So say she does apply for full custody of the children. How long would that take? And does she stay in Ireland illegally while this is ongoing? How would she support her children,pay rent and pay for food etc?She won't be able to work due to her being here illegally,so where would she get money from? I doubt the process of applying and receiving custody of children would be quick.


  • #9
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,554 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    OkayWhatever wrote: »
    So say she does apply for full custody of the children. How long would that take? And does she stay in Ireland illegally while this is ongoing? How would she support her children,pay rent and pay for food etc?She won't be able to work due to her being here illegally,so where would she get money from? I doubt the process of applying and receiving custody of children would be quick.

    All good points. As I said, I don't know about the legal recourse available but I'd be surprised if there wasn't some precedence and consequently some options in such a scenario. If it's the case that there isn't, obviously it needs to be changed.

    My initial contribution was simply to suggest that victims of crime shouldn't automatically be entitled to residency in Ireland purely because of the fact that they're victims of crime. If you are a parent to Irish children, there should be separate avenues to residency though. Thankfully the Zambrano judgement that I cited above should prevent any re-occurrence.


  • #10
    Wompa1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,256 ✭✭✭Wompa1


    I may be wrong here but my impression is that the story is slightly misrepresented. She could have claimed asylum surely? She feared going home due to the circumstances with her children and husband....people are allowed to stay for less. The social welfare aspect is a little different, not sure what she's entitled to as an asylum seeker vs citizen. It seems to me that the story is not looking at everything...


  • #11
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    clairefontaine wrote: »
    This woman was forced to drop rape charges so she could stay in Ireland with her children.

    This is shocking immigration policy.

    http://www.irishcentral.com/news/US-woman-forced-to-drop-rape-charges-to-stay-with-children-in-Ireland-221296461.html?page=1


    The article is a poor piece of writing - if a Junior Cert student wrote that it might get a reasonable mark, but it's not anything approaching the standard expected of a professional journalist.

    Individuals can't drop criminal charges and can't make criminal charges. That is a matter for the Gardaí and where appropriate the Director of Public Prosecutions. Given the way in which immigration rules operate, it is most unlikely that his "accused" status would have been relevant to her immigration status, as evidenced by the fact that she was in fact permitted to stay in Ireland by the Department of Justice.

    It may well be that she thought she needed his "certification" to remain in Ireland, and it may well be that he threatened to withhold it. But in that situation it is evident that she would have been allowed to stay in Ireland anyway. Rather than describe this as "shocking immigration policy", I suspect it's more accurate to say that she could have had better advice from someone.


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  • #12
    clairefontaine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭clairefontaine


    Deleted User wrote: »
    The article is a poor piece of writing - if a Junior Cert student wrote that it might get a reasonable mark, but it's not anything approaching the standard expected of a professional journalist.

    Individuals can't drop criminal charges and can't make criminal charges. That is a matter for the Gardaí and where appropriate the Director of Public Prosecutions. Given the way in which immigration rules operate, it is most unlikely that his "accused" status would have been relevant to her immigration status, as evidenced by the fact that she was in fact permitted to stay in Ireland by the Department of Justice.

    It may well be that she thought she needed his "certification" to remain in Ireland, and it may well be that he threatened to withhold it. But in that situation it is evident that she would have been allowed to stay in Ireland anyway. Rather than describe this as "shocking immigration policy", I suspect it's more accurate to say that she could have had better advice from someone.

    They can when it comes to assaults. They can press or drop charges.

    If she's there on a spousal visa, once she's no longer his spouse, that privaledge is dropped with the dissolution of he marriage.


  • #13
    clairefontaine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭clairefontaine


    Wompa1 wrote: »
    I may be wrong here but my impression is that the story is slightly misrepresented. She could have claimed asylum surely? She feared going home due to the circumstances with her children and husband....people are allowed to stay for less. The social welfare aspect is a little different, not sure what she's entitled to as an asylum seeker vs citizen. It seems to me that the story is not looking at everything...

    She doesn't come from a bird world war torn country, how would she ever claim asylum?


  • #14
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    clairefontaine wrote: »
    They can when it comes to assaults. They can press or drop charges.

    No they can't. I don't mean to be pedantic here, but once a person makes a complaint of assault - or any other crime for that matter - they are merely a witness. Prosecutions are a matter for the Gardaí and the DPP.

    clairefontaine wrote: »
    If she's there on a spousal visa, once she's no longer his spouse, that privaledge is dropped with the dissolution of he marriage.

    She wasn't divorcing him; she was bringing a complaint about him to the Gardaí.

    In any event, an American national who has lived in Ireland would be entitled to seek permission from the Department of Justice to continue to live here regardless of her marital status. She might not get that permission, but there is no guarantee that she would not. It is certainly not the case that the Department of Justice would deport her for giving a witness statement to the Gardaí - as is demonstrated by the fact that she was given clearance to remain in Ireland anyway.


  • #15
    clairefontaine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭clairefontaine


    Deleted User wrote: »
    No they can't. I don't mean to be pedantic here, but once a person makes a complaint of assault - or any other crime for that matter - they are merely a witness. Prosecutions are a matter for the Gardaí and the DPP.




    She wasn't divorcing him; she was bringing a complaint about him to the Gardaí.

    In any event, an American national who has lived in Ireland would be entitled to seek permission from the Department of Justice to continue to live here regardless of her marital status. She might not get that permission, but there is no guarantee that she would not. It is certainly not the case that the Department of Justice would deport her for giving a witness statement to the Gardaí - as is demonstrated by the fact that she was given clearance to remain in Ireland anyway.

    Ulysses you are wrong about that. The victim decides whether to press charges or not.

    She did divorce him. She dissolved her legal status with him, leaving her in limbo with immigration status.


  • #16
    Hello. How are you?
    Site Banned Posts: 7 ✭Hello. How are you?


    Are we 10000% sure she's telling the truth ? With all respect to the situation there have been many, many, many false rape allegations. And as for having to leave the Republic of Ireland, if she does separate from him she will no longer be with a European Citizen, hence annulling any right to stay here. Rules are rules I'm afraid. However, something should be done to bend the rules for the por woman :(


  • #17
    Hello. How are you?
    Site Banned Posts: 7 ✭Hello. How are you?


    OkayWhatever wrote: »
    So say she does apply for full custody of the children. How long would that take? And does she stay in Ireland illegally while this is ongoing? How would she support her children,pay rent and pay for food etc?She won't be able to work due to her being here illegally,so where would she get money from? I doubt the process of applying and receiving custody of children would be quick.

    Doesn't a woman automatically have full custody of the kids if born outside wedlock?


  • #18
    clairefontaine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭clairefontaine


    Hello. How are you? wrote: »
    Doesn't a woman automatically have full custody of the kids if born outside wedlock?

    Her children were born within marriage.


  • #19
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    clairefontaine wrote: »
    Ulysses you are wrong about that. The victim decides whether to press charges or not.

    That is simply not the case. There is no victim, only an alleged victim. The alleged victim makes a complaint. The Gardaí prepare a book of evidence on foot of that, and the Director of Public Prosecutions decides whether or not charges will be brought. When charges are brought by the DPP, they are not brought on behalf of the alleged victim. They are brought on behalf of the public and the State.

    clairefontaine wrote: »
    She did divorce him. She dissolved her legal status with him, leaving her in limbo with immigration status.

    At the time of the interaction with the immigration authorities, she was still married. Therefore she was not "in limbo" with regard to her immigration status. She may have thought she was, or she may have been badly advised, or her abusive husband might have threatened her with so being. But the fact is that she wasn't, which is demonstrated by the fact that the Department of Justice subsequently gave her clearance to remain in Ireland. Any divorce that happened after her interaction with the immigration service cannot have been relevant to it for the sole and simple reason that it happened later.


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