Irish Welfare Trap Criticised

brokenarms

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/welfare-trap-is-stopping-people-from-taking-jobs-29529657.html

A STRING of welfare traps that are stopping people taking up work have been identified in a damning government report


It finds large numbers of people are turning down jobs because they will lose welfare benefits.

And workers in low-paid jobs are reluctant to work extra hours because they will end up losing valuable social welfare payments – which would leave them worse off overall.

The damning criticism has come from an agency that is part of Social Protection Minister Joan Burton's own department.

I wonder what they intent to do about it.

In years past I personally turned down extra hours at work .
It would have put me over the 3 working day limit and cost me money to get paid overtime. Crazy situation that 1000s find themselves in.

OldNotWIse

Its crazy that two peopel working 15 hours - one over three days, the other over 5...the former can get SW and the latter cannot.

brokenarms

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Its crazy that two peopel working 15 hours - one over three days, the other over 5...the former can get SW and the latter cannot.

That happens in lots of places. 15 and 20 hour contracts that are spread through the week.
You really are better off on the dole in those cases if you are working below the 10 euro an hour rates.

Maybe its the min wage that should be increased.

MadsL

brokenarms wrote: »

That happens in lots of places. 15 and 20 hour contracts that are spread through the week.
You really are better off on the dole in those cases if you are working below the 10 euro an hour rates.

Maybe its the min wage that should be increased.

Or *whisper it* the dole reduced?

folan

brokenarms wrote: »

Maybe its the min wage that should be increased.

How do you believe that that will help instead of tackling the social welfare system and ensuring that those who need it most receive help, while those who can work are incentised to instead of working a minimum in order to claim the additional?

OldNotWIse

brokenarms wrote: »

That happens in lots of places. 15 and 20 hour contracts that are spread through the week.
You really are better off on the dole in those cases if you are working below the 10 euro an hour rates.

Maybe its the min wage that should be increased.

Madness

- bo -

00_trapattoni.jpg

Criticise him all you want about his team selection but leave him out of this...

darkpagandeath

Would not be so much of a problem if they payed ppl a decent wage or the standard of living was lower Dublin is 30% more expensive than London .. A lot of people are under the impression that people on the dole are getting loads of money. There not its benched marked against cost of living and so on you really think the government give you loads of free money your fooling yourself. Do you not find this odd coming out before the budget to target SW again it's an easy fall guy to target. You really think the 400k ppl on the dole want to be on it ? If it was back to the pre jobs Crisis level there would be no problem at all There are no jobs. And if someone says there are over 5k unfilled high end IT jobs again i swear.. These jobs will never be filled as no one has the skillset for them these are usually high end R&D good luck getting a Course for there requirements here.

Figures are approximate

Caonima

folan wrote: »

How do you believe that that will help instead of tackling the social welfare system and ensuring that those who need it most receive help, while those who can work are incentised to instead of working a minimum in order to claim the additional?

Higher minimum is an incentive in itself for people who can work so it should *incentivise more people to join the labour force

Mr Benevolent

MadsL wrote: »

Or *whisper it* the dole reduced?

Only the employed and the smug ever call for the dole to be reduced. And the only reason they call for it is because they enjoy seeing people in pain.

FatherLen

Mr Benevolent wrote: »

And the only reason they call for it is because they enjoy seeing people in pain.

I call for it to be reduced because it is not means tested and people abuse it.

folan

Caonima wrote: »

Higher minimum is an incentive in itself for people who can work so it should *incentivise more people to join the labour force

is it an incentive for employers to employ more though? which brings us back to the "there are no jobs" problem. which is why im currently against raising the minimum wage, even though there is a very good debate to be had on if i am right or not.

thanks for pointing out my spelling mistake.

Wabbit Ears

We should have Job placement schemes where, if you refuse work, your dole is cut anyways.

Bits_n_Bobs

Mr Benevolent wrote: »

Only the employed and the smug ever call for the dole to be reduced. And the only reason they call for it is because they enjoy seeing people in pain.

Or because they want to minimise the amount of tax they have to pay?? Smug employed people daring to want to pay less tax!!! Hideous capitalist pigs!! Let's lynch 'em!!

Mr Benevolent

FatherLen wrote: »

I call for it to be reduced because it is not means tested and people abuse it.

JSA is means tested and JSB can only be held for a max of 9 months. All long term unemployed are means tested unless they are on disability. Don't spout crap.

darkpagandeath

Wabbit Ears wrote: »

We should have Job placement schemes where, if you refuse work, your dole is cut anyways.

We do it's called Job bridge. It's not abused at all :rolleyes:

hfallada

In Switzerland you get half your pay cheque for 6 months and its gradually reduced. There if you are on minimum wage there is an incentive to return to work.

In Ireland the longer you are on welfare, the less you should get.

hatrickpatrick

folan wrote: »

How do you believe that that will help instead of tackling the social welfare system and ensuring that those who need it most receive help, while those who can work are incentised to instead of working a minimum in order to claim the additional?

The cost of living in Ireland is too high, either the minimum wage needs to go up or we need to tackle the cost of living, and that's only going to happen if governments are willing to tackle high rents, which they won't.

DellyBelly

- bo - wrote: »

00_trapattoni.jpg

Criticise him all you want about his team selection but leave him out of this...

????? Have no idea what you mean by that???? That's Trapatonni what's he got to do with the IRish welfare system

Caonima

folan wrote: »

is it an incentive for employers to employ more though? which brings us back to the "there are no jobs" problem. which is why im currently against raising the minimum wage, even though there is a very good debate to be had on if i am right or not.

thanks for pointing out my spelling mistake.

True, an increased minimum wage doesn't guarantee jobs. In some aspects, it can jeopardise job creation.

However, it does also (usually) pump extra funds into the economy, so....

Sorry, wasn't being a grammar nazi there....

hatrickpatrick

folan wrote: »

is it an incentive for employers to employ more though? which brings us back to the "there are no jobs" problem. which is why im currently against raising the minimum wage, even though there is a very good debate to be had on if i am right or not.

thanks for pointing out my spelling mistake.

What's the point in creating a bunch of extra jobs if they're so crappily paid that people can't survive on them?

FatherLen

Mr Benevolent wrote: »

Only the employed and the smug ever call for the dole to be reduced. And the only reason they call for it is because they enjoy seeing people in pain.

Mr Benevolent wrote: »

Don't spout crap.

pot, kettle.

Oranage2

Just place an upside down shopping trolly outside bookies and pubs during the day and put some coppers or cheese in it, when the scrounger crawls in - SLAM - the back slams shut catching the person.

Perfect!

folan

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

The cost of living in Ireland is too high, either the minimum wage needs to go up or we need to tackle the cost of living, and that's only going to happen if governments are willing to tackle high rents, which they won't.

good point. However, in increasing the min wage, the cost of living will increase as people will increase prices to
1) cover their own increased costs and
2) get more money from the customers, as they now know that they have more.

High rents should be tackled, but i cant see them being done in the medium term, as it comes down to the same thing as list item 2) above.

Basically, the greedy will stay greedy. And they are able to influence too much to have their own income hit too hard.

Owen_S

MadsL wrote: »

Or *whisper it* the dole reduced?

IMO it would only be fair to reduce it for those who are convicted of crimes while on the dole.

JohnnyCarmello

Owen_S wrote: »

IMO it would only be fair to reduce it for those who are convicted of crimes while on the dole.

replace the dole with a guide on how to re-offend perhaps?

folan

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

What's the point in creating a bunch of extra jobs if they're so crappily paid that people can't survive on them?

whats the other suggestion? that we continue to support an already broken welfare system by increasing the taxation on those lucky enough to be making a living? reduce their wages to the point of also being crappily paid, as you put it?

Rothmans

Mr Benevolent wrote: »

Only the employed and the smug ever call for the dole to be reduced. And the only reason they call for it is because they enjoy seeing people in pain.

Or they're sick of giving up to 55% of their hard-earned money in taxes to fund the lifestyles of so many spongers and abusers of the social welfare system.

(Disclaimer: Obviously, the majority of people on the dole are genuine, and I'm not referring to them, before any bleeding hearts jump on me).

folan

Caonima wrote: »

True, an increased minimum wage doesn't guarantee jobs. In some aspects, it can jeopardise job creation.

However, it does also (usually) pump extra funds into the economy, so....

Sorry, wasn't being a grammar nazi there....

I think we are kinda on the same page as to the benefits and the dangers of a higher minimum wage. I think the difference is you are more optimistic about its potential benefits than i am.

wasn't suggesting you were. I seriously couldn't think of how to spell that and approximated!

munchkin_utd

hfallada wrote: »

In Switzerland you get half your pay cheque for 6 months and its gradually reduced. There if you are on minimum wage there is an incentive to return to work.

In Ireland the longer you are on welfare, the less you should get.

+1

same in germany, same in scandanavia.
Irish people look abroad and wonder at the "generous" systems in Germanic/ Nordic countries but Ireland has possibly the most generous system worldwide.

Sure the dole in Ireland is nearly double what you get in Germany once the initial generous parachute payments are finished!

Terry1985

Mr Benevolent wrote: »

Only the employed and the smug ever call for the dole to be reduced. And the only reason they call for it is because they enjoy seeing people in pain.

Rubbish, it's because the employed are sick of carrying the lazy and unemployable who are on the sofa watching daytime tv while we're out doing a decent days work.

and working more hours for part timers could lead to more hours/full time hours/promotion.

it's not a 'welfare trap' it's a welfare attitude.

darkpagandeath

folan wrote: »

whats the other suggestion? that we continue to support an already broken welfare system by increasing the taxation on those lucky enough to be making a living? reduce their wages to the point of also being crappily paid, as you put it?

why does everyone tar People on the Dole with the same brush? We all know there is only a % of a % that take the P*ss. Tackle the jobs problem then once you have cured this and have the resources go after them. Not the other way around that's just throwing money away as we all know them chancers will find a way to stay on it.

Caonima

folan wrote: »

I think we are kinda on the same page as to the benefits and the dangers of a higher minimum wage. I think the difference is you are more optimistic about its potential benefits than i am.

wasn't suggesting you were. I seriously couldn't think of how to spell that and approximated!

Increasing minimum wage is yet another prickly, contentious issue with positives and negatives. I mean, it has been shown that higher minimum wages can also cause students to leave school/college early to avail of the higher wages.

We can all agree that the cost of living in Ireland is out of control, as are wages in general. I think if increasing the minimum wage helps some people get their heads above the water vis-a-vis living on the breadline, then this is good, as is creating an incentive for others to take up a job instead of living on benefits. Frankly, I'm pretty sure most of the people who lost their jobs in recent years would take your hand off if offered them (a) a job, and (b) a slightly higher minimum wage. Minimum wage jobs are now a reality for a lot of people who might have been pulling down pretty decent cash before the collapse.

Rothmans wrote: »

Or they're sick of giving up to 55% of their hard-earned money in taxes to fund the lifestyles of so many spongers and abusers of the social welfare system.

(Disclaimer: Obviously, the majority of people on the dole are genuine, and I'm not referring to them, before any bleeding hearts jump on me).

We don't get to pick and choose where the tax funds go; if we did, well....

folan

darkpagandeath wrote: »

why does everyone tar People on the Dole with the same brush? We all know there is only a % of a % that take the P*ss. Tackle the jobs problem then once you have cured this and have the resources go after them. Not the other way around that's just throwing money away as we all know them chancers will find a way to stay on it.

I wasnt suggesting that most were taking the piss, i believe that that is a % of a %, as you say. Sorry, i wasnt clear.

What I mean is how the social welfare, not just the dole, is broken. Vital resources do not make it to those who need them most because of inefficiency and a lack of means testing, among other issues.

biko

Yeah it's a trap alright..

There is wide spread casualization of employment and 0 or 10 or 20 hour contracts and that interfere with the choice people make around taking up a job it is very complicated. I know for a fact that personnel managers in retail don't like all the hassle ( from their point of view ) of dealing with the paper work for family income supplement, its a very complex area and any tinkering with the system cause problem some where else in the system. There are also problems with secondary benefits and income limit.

Bottom line is people are always going to do what ever maximises the income for their family.

Ciotola

The minimum wage should be abolished and the dole reduced to 100 per week.

More businesses would be set up and this more jobs available.

darkpagandeath

Ciotola wrote: »

The minimum wage should be abolished and the dole reduced to 100 per week.

More businesses would be set up and this more jobs available.

you know your weekly shop costs more than that right ?

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

what on earth are you buying that costs over 100 a week?

folan

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

what on earth are you buying that costs over 100 a week?

LOADS AND LOADS OF BEER!

darkpagandeath

well with the tone in the thread about SW gold plated caviar

old hippy

Ciotola wrote: »

The minimum wage should be abolished and the dole reduced to 100 per week.

More businesses would be set up and this more jobs available.

I wonder how a family could survive on £100 a week

Are you on the dole?

folan

100 euro after rent and food, never mind bills, can add up to a negative number. However, housing benefit etc can help, and should the SW system be better placed to tackle such issues, those in real need would be looked after while they get themselves back to the working world.

Ciotola

old hippy wrote: »

I wonder how a family could survive on £100 a week

Are you on the dole?

For a start chances are you could either get a job or start a business if you really wanted to.

Caonima

Me smells a troll

Celly Smunt

MadsL wrote: »

Or *whisper it* the dole reduced?

And we go in a circle again.


Where are these magical jobs going to appear from when the dole is cut?

Mr Benevolent

Celly Smunt wrote: »

And we go in a circle again.


Where are these magical jobs going to appear from when the dole is cut?

From employers who will be shafting people with €1 per hour wages when AH gets its way and the minimum wage is abolished.

Like I said, some posters enjoy seeing people in pain.

Mr.McLovin

I don't think the dole should be cut for genuine people who have lost their jobs during one of the worst recession we've had but if you haven't had a job since 1992 I think at least somebody should drop out to your house and ask you what the fúck is going on?!?

dxhound2005

darkpagandeath wrote: »

why does everyone tar People on the Dole with the same brush? We all know there is only a % of a % that take the P*ss. Tackle the jobs problem then once you have cured this and have the resources go after them. Not the other way around that's just throwing money away as we all know them chancers will find a way to stay on it.

Cure the jobs problem? Yes that would be the solution. I don't know that it is only a % of a%. When we had hundreds of thousands of people coming here from abroad to work (the jobs problems was cured back then) we still had around 4% unemployment.

•The unemployment rate in Ireland increased from a low point of 3.6% in 2001 to 4.3% in 2006. Ireland had the third lowest unemployment rate in the EU 27 in 2006 at just over half of the EU 27 average of 7.9%. The long-term unemployment rate in Ireland was 1.4% in 2005, which was lower than the EU27 average of 4%.

And large numbers are still arriving from abroad to work eventhough the jobs cure turned out to be only temporary.

old hippy

Ciotola wrote: »

For a start chances are you could either get a job or start a business if you really wanted to.

Just like that, really?

Well, I never. Are you on the dole? Ever been on the dole?

Caonima

Mr.McLovin wrote: »

... but if you haven't had a job since 1992 I think at least somebody should drop out to your house and ask you what the fúck is going on?!?

And hear the usual "aaahhhhhh sorry luuuuv, I've dis here bad back, yerknowwharamean?" People like this who have been on the scratcher 10+ years or have never worked an honest day in their life are a fucking disgrace to the country. But like one of the posters said earlier, the first priority needs to be getting as many people back to work as soon as possible.